[11-11-2007] 17:05 Dublin Sligo [Archive]

Mark Gleeson

11-11-2007, 21:08

Sligo services: delays by Corporate Communications

11th November 2007 - 20.30hrs

Due to an engine fault on the 17.05hrs Connolly to Sligo service at Killucan, there are significant delays to all services on the Dublin-Sligo line at present.

Customers are advised that where delays exceed 60 minutes, customers are eligible for refund vouchers. Please download this form to claim vouchers, which should be returned with your ticket to the address shown.

Iarnród Éireann apologises to customers for the inconvenience caused.

Was a 071 + Mk2d sets

Train spent the day in Pearse so no change of getting the once over inspection to catch the fault

Train only left Pearse at 4:59 so it was late before it started

Mickey H

11-11-2007, 21:58

Over 300 stranded as train breaks down
Sunday, 11 November 2007 20:56
More than 300 people have been stranded near Killucan, Co Westmeath this evening after engine failure on the Dublin to Sligo train.

Passengers on the 5.05pm service from Connolly station say the train broke down shortly after 6.30pm near Killucan, where it has also blocked a local roadway.

A number of passengers contacted RTÉ to complain about the lack of catering and support services for a large number of elderly passengers on the train.

AdvertisementIt is understood a number of people have left the train at this stage and walked more than a mile to local premises in search of hot food.

A train engine has arrived at the stalled train to transport passengers from Killucan.

Iarnród Éireann have said that passengers would be on their way to Sligo within half an hour.

I travelled on this train twice over the weekend (loco 073 and 8 mk2) and it was performing well on both occaisions, obviously something went wrong after today's 0855 from Sligo

KSW

11-11-2007, 22:27

Arriving at midnight and left Connolly at 17:05 wow thats 7hrs. Feel sorry for passengers but what can you do!

Mark Gleeson

11-11-2007, 23:54

The important thing to take from this is not the obvious fact that the train is meant to be on the scrapheap but the total failure to deal with the failure in a efficient and professional manner

No matter what age a train it will break down and leave you stranded, the Mk4's have done it, the unbreakable railcars, break remember the 2800 set spent 10 hours in Dun Laoghaire only a week ago, age has nothing to do with it

Clearly no information provided and no initiative taken in dealing with the situation. Obvious issue is feeding 300 odd people, train is sitting at a level crossing

11850 need a takeway in Westmeath near Killucan which delivers?

Mark Gleeson

12-11-2007, 00:12

Some investigation shows

17:05 is due to stop Killucan at 17:55 to depart at 17:59:30

The rescue locomotive left Connolly sometime after 19:15, the RTE report says 18:30 as the time of breakdown so the 17:05 was in trouble anyway so it took over 45 minutes to dispatch rescue and some genius allowed a railcar to get out ahead as well further delaying matters

Of course its not impossible for 29k to drag a locomotive hauled set, just it would have to be air braked which the Mk2 is not. Up north railcars have rescued locomotive hauled set

Mickey H

12-11-2007, 13:34

"Up north railcars have rescued locomotive hauled set"

An 80 class railcar has rescued a failed locomotive hauled train in the past but can only move it to the nearest station at reduced speed as the brake systems on the railcars and locomotives/coaches are only partially compatable.

A 450 class railcar cannot be coupled to a locomotive hauled train. A C3K can but it apparently takes an hour

Mickey H

12-11-2007, 13:37

Apologies if this has already been discussed but why not use a MK3 set on the Sligo line in place of the MK2 which would be a temporary improvement?

Mark Gleeson

12-11-2007, 13:41

Well some genius in IE in full knowledge of the failure let the 19:05 Dublin Sligo out ahead of the rescue locomotive making a bad situation even worse

Not being the trainspotter about it but a 450 has dragged a train behind it, scary but it works. The boys in NIR seem gifted with lateral thinking when it comes to solving problems, IE just can't sort themselves out

All the modern red tape means the old fashioned get things moving by any means has disappeared.

KSW

12-11-2007, 14:41

Because some Sligo councillor thought this was a down standard therefore say no. It wouldnt be fair to Rosslare users they would be complaining Myself included(haha) The Mk3 trains would have given both lines that InterCity feeling rather than the 29000 Commuter Railcars. Its obvious to me that the Sligo councillor doesnt use the rail service to Dublin

sean

12-11-2007, 17:57

I'm assuming it's the locomotive that broke down?

Mark Gleeson

12-11-2007, 18:12

Yes 073 died

Its important to bare in mind
The important thing to take from this is not the obvious fact that the train is meant to be on the scrapheap but the total failure to deal with the failure in a efficient and professional manner

No matter what age a train it will break down and leave you stranded

Rashers

12-11-2007, 21:25

Check out the Internet link for the radio story.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1112/rail.html
Having listened to what one of the passengers said happened, I think the passengers appear to have been treated badly once the delay occurred.
To which the IE spokesman said...'Some issue with teas and coffees'...'We will review that'......
I thought the interviewer was going to push Barry a bit more on why they failed to implement a definite plan once they ran out of supplies of hot food etc., Why someone from Irish Rail did not go and sort something, given they had probably a good idea how long the delay was going to be is a mystery.
Passengers having to go get food/drinks for the elderly passengers who could not leave during a 7 hour journey would seem to have been fairly serious.
Another poor interviewer, with the promise of new trains quickly missing the key message.
Example: The interviewer should have asked if the new trains broke down, would the passengers be treated the same way?

KSW

12-11-2007, 23:43

I just cant believe why some clever person let the 19:05 depart knowing the train ahead was broke down and therefore creating more problems. I just hope that there was heating on the train and was working for it was really cold espically for the older people.

seamus kilcock

13-11-2007, 06:51

Reports indicate there was no heating on the Dublin to Sligo train that broke down on Sunday last. This would indicate there was no heating before it left Connolly - unless, of course, by a strange co-incidence, the heating broke down too!
I find this strange because, unless I'm mistaken, the heating comes from the 'geni' van and not from the 'broken down' 071.
Anybody out there, with more knowledge of the actual workings of the heating on the Mk 2's, care to comment?

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 09:38

A lot of the stories have been exaggerated, some coaches had no heating to start with, if the generator van had failed there would have been little or no light onboard

Heating and lighting are totally separate from the locomotive

The train arrived Sligo before midnight not after has the media as reported

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 09:48

Passengers stranded on freezing train
Paddy Clancy

Passengers stranded for several hours on a freezing train complained yesterday they couldn't even buy a cup of tea from the food trolley because Iarnród Éireann did not have enough water on board.

Passengers also told how they put on extra clothing from their suitcases in an attempt to keep warm, walked up to a mile in search of hot food when the engine broke down in Co Westmeath, could not use the toilets and were given no information on what was happening.

Iarnród Éireann spokesman Barry Kenny apologised to passengers and admitted what had happened was "not good".

Elaine McGee, a local radio broadcaster, was among the passengers stranded when the 5.05pm train on Sunday from Connolly station, Dublin, to Sligo broke down at Killucan, near Mullingar.

"We were given no information for an hour and then an Iarnród official went running through the carriage saying there had been a breakdown but he didn't want to stop and explain.

"It was bitterly cold and there was no heat at all . . . It was so cold two old ladies had to be moved up the train in an attempt to find some warmth."

Ms McGee (25), a presenter with Ocean FM, said: "The tea trolley was wheeled through the carriage but we couldn't get a cup of tea. There was no water. They had muffins and snacks and we had to pay for them. They soon ran out."

She said that almost an hour and a half after the breakdown passengers were told an engineer was on the way but was only leaving Connolly station, in Dublin, at that stage and would not arrive for another 40 minutes.

A replacement engine was linked to the train and passengers arrived in Sligo after midnight, more than three hours late.

© 2007 The Irish Times

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1113/1194550199088.html

seamus kilcock

13-11-2007, 10:24

This is 2007 and not 1907.
It is crazy to think - as you suggest Mark - that in this year 2007 a train was sent from Dublin to Sligo with a generator not working properly for lights and heat. (Are there not two generators per 'guards' van?).
IE have surely had enough time testing the 22000 class trains.
'How long is a piece of string'?
The people of Sligo should kick up a 'stink' and insist IE deliver as they promised several months ago i.e. put into service the 22000 type trains.
IE went so far as to advertise the putting into service of the trains during the Autumn of 2007.
Only 17 days to go to keep the promise.
I wonder if there's an agenda within IE - by this I mean is there a union/staff/IE problem introducing the trains; I would not be surprised is there is a problem?
Hope I'm wrong - but!!!
Meanwhile, people of Sligo get on your proverbial 'high horses' and get on to IE to keep their promise by introducing the new 22000 class trains before end of November 2007; or did they mean November 2008!!!

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 10:35

Generator van was functional leaving Dublin, most coaches had working heating others did not, thats a long running thing

There are no reports of lighting failure which would indicate a failure of both generators did not occur

Everyone seems fixated with the fact this was an old train, a modern train is more than capable enough of failing in a similar way, in fact modern trains when they suffer a major failure tend to die completely leaving you stranded.

The new trains line is a cop out, no one is complaining about the fact the train broke down (trains always will) but about the lack of information, lack of refreshments, delay in getting rescued and so on matters which are totally independent of the train type

KSW

13-11-2007, 11:05

Does it not mention something in the passenger charter on up-to-date information and where delays exceed 1hour its a complete refund in vouchers. Obviously in this case I should think every passenger got the refund. Why does the entire train not have heating not just the odd carriage. The 22000 trains I believe from reading from German/Korean technology that its the best train and greenest desiel in Europe right choice there. Something is obviously up with the new trains but what. That Korean person I seen the other day in Wexford on the new train is there for a reason pure and simple. But after all it is Iarnrod Eireann's decision when they want to roll the trains out, Why dont they put a limit on (Example)-> New timetable that day is the limit.

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 11:22

This is a thread about the failure of the 17:05 Dublin Sligo 11/11/2007

Discussion of the 22k delay entering service is not relevant, please stay on topic

seamus kilcock

13-11-2007, 14:02

With due respect Mark this thread is about using public transport to Sligo - in this case a train; a train that broke down and seriously discomoded many people.
It is about the awful service provided by IE to the people travelling to Sligo from Dublin on the day; some of whom were reported as elderly.
These people should not have to put up with a train which, according to your good self, was not in a proper condition before it left Dublin.
I am sure you are correct in stating some of the carriages had no heating. This is a disgrace and should not be tolerated. I hope our, very well paid, public TD's representing Sligo, get together and put serious pressure on IE to get the 22000 trains into service without further delay.
Fact is, modern trains like the 22000's are less likely to break down compared to Mark 2 stock pulled by 071's.

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 14:34

Mk4 brand new has spent hours in countryside for various reasons, including one where smoke filled the coaches, delay 2.5 hours+, numerous delays recorded over an hour due to technical problems

2800 railcar set dating from 1999 spent 11 hours stuck blocking a track in Dun Laoghaire only 2 weeks ago leading to an enmass cancellation of all services south of Booterstown during the morning rush The list is endless, I don't care about the age of a train they will breakdown and industry experience shows that when a modern train dies it really does die and delays are in measured in hours. Really there won't be any difference serious mechanical failures will occur always and are quite independent of age.

But every time it’s the same line, passengers angry and no information and lack of any assistance from Irish Rail. Barry Kenny will come on and tell us how wonderful these new trains are going to be, he doesn't tell you that the *******ed set of coaches on the Sligo run have suffered only 2 recorded mechanical delays in 8 months, that’s about 27,000 miles per failure which is well good, the new train to Cork was managing under 7,000, enterprise is lucky to make 12,000. New =/= More reliable

The new trains won't fix the ignorant and lazy attitude of many staff, it won't fix the crazy management who can't deal with breakdown. Sunday night was a failure of people to manage. Train failed 18:20, rescue didn't leave Connolly till 19:25, had the rescue left Connolly before 19:05 it would have saved huge hassle

MOH

13-11-2007, 15:43

I was on the 15:41 from Carrick-on-shannon to Heuston. We were nearly 20 minutes late arriving in. Seemed to spend a long time in Mullingar, think we were waiting for the outbound train to pass, so that was well late at that point.

Think our train became the 19:05, so that was at least 20 minutes late leaving.

Needless to say, no explanation given.

ThomasJ

13-11-2007, 15:49

MOH

13-11-2007, 17:12

Heuston??

Uh ... yeah ... that's my pet name for Connolly ...

Sorry, Connolly!

Mickey H

13-11-2007, 17:28

rescue didn't leave Connolly till 19:25, had the rescue left Connolly before 19:05 it would have saved huge hassle

I think the rescue engine came from Inchicore and had to do a complicated shunt at Glasnevin to get to Connolly as the direct route was closed due to track work

Edward Ryan

13-11-2007, 17:29

Regarding the heating on these trains. This problem used to affect these carrages on the Rosslare services. Some would have heating others would not. Seems to me that the problem is in the carrages not the generater unit.

Ed

Mark Gleeson

13-11-2007, 17:42

I think the rescue engine came from Inchicore and had to do a complicated shunt at Glasnevin to get to Connolly as the direct route was closed due to track work

Where it came from is irrelevant, IE screwed up and where exceptionally slow in dealing with it

Rashers

13-11-2007, 19:52

Where it came from is irrelevant, IE screwed up and where exceptionally slow in dealing with it

Agreed. That point was missed by any journalist involved.

KSW

13-11-2007, 20:18

Mark to my knowledge there is a 201 class loco at spare for the Enterprise back-up why not use this!!

sean

13-11-2007, 20:56

It's too heavy for the heap of **** bridge that carries the Sligo line over the Shannon.

KSW

13-11-2007, 22:23

Thanks Sean, That explains it!

Mark Gleeson

14-11-2007, 01:00

Actually the rule book permits any locomotive to operate to Sligo in a emergency

ACustomer

14-11-2007, 10:09

But would Sligo drivers be passed to drive a 201?

Mark Gleeson

14-11-2007, 10:21

But would Sligo drivers be passed to drive a 201?
Again not our problem thats Irish Rail's problem, rescue came from Dublin anyway

Basic fact is Irish Rail did not deal with the breakdown in an efficient manner

MidlandDeltic

14-11-2007, 13:06

Again not our problem thats Irish Rail's problem, rescue came from Dublin anyway

Basic fact is Irish Rail did not deal with the breakdown in an efficient manner

Rescue may have come from Dublin, but loco ended up in Sligo - and had to work the train the next morning back to Dublin. There are all sorts of issues over route and traction knowledge, and it is impractical to expect all drivers to know all routes and traction. Even if Sligo drivers were trained on the 201s at some point, that knowledge expires if not used. As Sligo drivers never come into contact with the class, the money spent training would in all likelyhood be wasted. If you were the driver of the rescue loco, would you like to be told at zero notice that you were staying the night 130 miles from home - and by the way, you'll get there after midnight?

I agree with earlier comments however, that all trains can fail - old or new. In nearly 200,000 miles of rail travel over the last 20 years or so, I have failed completely maybe five times. Only one of these was in Ireland - with a brand new 2600 in June 1994. Other failures have been with both new and old trains in my former home in the UK - and in one case, depsite much closer availability of a rescue loco, it took nearly three hours to get on the move. As was said, this is only the second failure of the old stock in several months of continuous use.

The response is what counts. IE did not do well, but this is due to a number of factors - stock incompatibilities being one. The cost of provding a spare, manned locomotive at, say Mullingar for one train a day would be unsustainable, and given the generally reliable operation since the spring would be difficult to justify. The food issue is unfortunate, but I don't feel Rail Gourmet are at fault on this - whoever is operating a refreshment service cannot be expected to carry significant "spare" stock just in case, as the wastage would be horrendous. Similarly, water will always be limited - I have travelled on trains with full restaurant cars which have managed to run out in the course of a normal journey. Interestingly, IE were balmed for this in the original report.

So yes, unfortunate, and perhaps could have been handdled better. Hoever, if there hadn't been a radio presenter on board, would it have made national TV news?

Sean

Mark Gleeson

14-11-2007, 14:13

Train was due to leave Killucan 18:00, it got there at 18:20 and failed

Several coaches in the set have ongoing heating problems (note if the shinny new 22k failed in a total sit down heating would die as well)

Despite having a full dining car and a trolley supplies ran out very quickly, even with less than half load aboard

Despite the passenger charter it appears passengers where charged for what little there was in the dining car

Information on board was lacking and staff not visible

The rescue locomotive was not dispatched until 19:15-19:25

The train was further delayed in Longford while the dead locomotive was dumped in a siding, that could have been done in Mullingar and have saved the train a number of minutes as it would 100 tons lighter there after

The morning after there was no notice on the IE website informing passengers of the refund procedure

The form that was linked from the delay notice online was the wrong form

No initiative was shown at any point to assist passengers or to even restock the catering at say Mullingar

A number of passengers managed to exit the train and successfully found hot food, if they found food why didn't the driver, guard or ticket checker take the initiative and get supplies?

The internal procedures and staff issues are irrelevant to the 160 odd who got stuck

CSL

14-11-2007, 14:39

If you were the driver of the rescue loco, would you like to be told at zero notice that you were staying the night 130 miles from home - and by the way, you'll get there after midnight?

That, in my view, would be one of the key things I would look for in the driver of a rescue loco.. otherwise why have a rescue loco ?

Second, although dropping into railway detail, if the rescue driver didn't know the route, is it not permitted for the driver of the failed loco to sit beside him and tell him about the bends and speeds of the road ?

Mark Gleeson

14-11-2007, 14:57

if the rescue driver didn't know the route, is it not permitted for the driver of the failed loco to sit beside him and tell him about the bends and speeds of the road ?Yes, though every driver in Connolly knows all routes out of Connolly

John J

14-11-2007, 19:46

This was covered in the news but I can't see any posts here congratulating IE on their latest achievements on the Sligo line - so just thought I'd take up the mantle.

Apparantly the 17.05 ex Connolly broke down in Westmeath on Sunday night. Catering services were non-existent as usual, and some passengers left the train, walking over a mile in the dark to get hot food.
Train was scheduled to arrive in Sligo at 20.10 but got there well after 22.00.

Presumably the 19.05 ex Connolly and the trains coming from Sligo also experienced delays of many hours.

Rashers

14-11-2007, 19:55

perhaps could have been handdled better. Hoever, if there hadn't been a radio presenter on board, would it have made national TV news?

Sean

Sean, there is no doubt it could have been handled better.:( Yet again, no firm information to passengers, and given the length of this delay, surely the conductor should have been a lot more proactive - i.e. is there is an incident support number he can ring for advice? The regional manager for the line should of been called, and should have done something. He has remained remarkebly silent, despite the national coverage on the way the passengers were treated. Maybe the local papers will pick up the story over the next few days, and get to the bottom of why the passengers were so poorly treated.

seamus kilcock

14-11-2007, 19:56

Mark, I accept your line of reasoning up to a point when you state new trains break down too.
However the Mark 2 rake used on the Sligo run does one round trip daily.
The DMU's used clock up a lot more miles.
However, there is no excuse for sending out a rake of Mark 2's on a daily basis if it is known some of the carriages have a heating problem.
Shame on you IE.
This is inefficiency of the highest order and a couldn't care less and arrogant attitude by IE personnel towards their customers.
Is there anyone with the authority in IE who is prepared to insist that the heating is put right on the Sligo rake of Mark 2's?
Maybe Barry Kenny is your man!