New EU Rail Passenger Rights

[Derek Wheeler]

Did anyone hear B Kenny tonight? The much vaunted EU guidelines for rail customer rights was put before the European Parliament yesterday. Obviously one of the rights refers to refunds for late running trains. Kenny promoted the fact that IE have been doing this already under their secret...oopps... sorry...I mean well known (apparently) customer charter. The FineGael MEP had never heard of it. Matt Cooper had never heard of it and none of the listeners texting in had heard of it. Cooper suggested that IE call the advertising section of TodayFM.:D

Most regulars around here will know that IE do not promote and in the majority of cases reported to us, don't even inform passengers of the right to a refund. Furthermore the refund is irrelevent to weekly/monthly/annual ticket holders. Kenny cited one incident where IE managers stood on platforms handing out the refund form. We remember that don't we? It was after a raft of complaints from P11 members. Sadly the particular manager that reacted to that has left the company, so the status quo returns.

[Mark Gleeson]

Needless to say we have known about these magic EU regulations for some time and IE are in for one hell of a shock

[Mark Gleeson]

If I was senior IE management I'd be getting very concerned about this

Remember the customer charter is an admission of failure, if a decent service was provided few if any of the scenarios in the charter would come into play, and of course its not legally enforceable.

Only 18 months to go before it becomes legally enforceable, if IE continue with there current two fingers to the passenger approach they are going to be very badly hurt by legal proceedings and fines

Will they sort themselves out in time, doubtful

MEPs agree rules to compensate rail users facing long delays
Jamie Smyth in Strasbourg

MEPs have agreed new rules guaranteeing rail passengers compensation if they face delays and the right to take their bicycles on to trains.

All cross-border rail services will also be opened to competition from January 1st, 2010, under a new European directive agreed yesterday.

MEPs voted in favour of the "third railway package" following more than two years of tough negotiations with officials from EU member states.

Under the new rules, passengers on cross-border trains in Europe will be entitled to 25 per cent compensation when they are delayed for an hour or more and 50 per cent compensation when a delay is two hours or more. There should also be easier access to rail transport for people with disabilities, with the directive recommending that companies put in place non-discriminatory access rules for wheelchair users.

Bicycle users should also benefit from a recommendation that bicycles should be welcome on trains, provided they are easy to handle and the rolling stock permits.

Barry Kenny, a spokesman for Iarnród Éireann, said the new measures should not have a major impact on the company because it had already introduced a passenger rights charter that guaranteed similar or higher levels of compensation for its customers.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/0926/1190324763780.html
© 2007 The Irish Times

[Jimbo]

I thought Barry Kenny kinda blew Matt and the MEP out of the water totally. He said the customer charter has been in place for 9 years - is that correct? The MEP (can't remember his name now) came on as if he was all knowledgeable and that this would make a big difference yet he had no idea about this charter!
Can you explain to me how they are in for a hell of a shock?
So what if they don't advertise this, why would they? Airlines don't advertise what your rights are with them

[Mark Gleeson]

Legal enforcement of refunds for service delays
Right to a refund in cash
Season ticket holders entitled to refunds/discounts
Sets down basic information requirements
Legal deadlines on complaints
A legal definition that the liability is with the operator
Legal requirement to public info on complaints and performance

Requires every member state to form a independent body to oversee that the rules are followed.

The current IE customer charter is worth nothing, its not legal document, if IE break the charter as they do virtually every minute of every day there is no recourse to stop IE. New rules IE screw up they get fined

[al2637]

The IT reports that it is for cross-border trains, does this mean it will only apply to Enterprise trains?

[Mark Gleeson]

It applies to all rail services operated under the usual EU rail service licence 95/18/EC anywhere in the EU block. Note the RPSI don't fall under this

The first draft was for international travel only, that was quickly revised to all rail travel

Note international travel is covered by the CIV rules already

It is an aim of this Regulation to bring passenger rights into national and international rail transport. A number of the provisions of this Regulation will require major adjustments in some Member States. Consequently, Member States which are in an extraordinary situation should have the option of granting temporary exemptions from certain measures laid down in this Regulation in respect of national journeys on their territory or a part thereof. In a number of Member States, public service contracts provide for a system of appropriate compensation payable to the authorities in the event of delays. Member States which provide for such a system in their public service contracts should have the option of being temporarily exempted from the provisions of this Regulation relating to compensation in the event of delays.

The IE/DoT deal does not specify compensation and is not enforceable, we know since we got the document after much hassle

[2Funki4Wheelz]

25 per cent compensation when they are delayed for an hour or more and 50 per cent compensation when a delay is two hours or more

Wouldn't a % of total journey time be more appropriate? A half-hour delay on a trip from Kildare is pretty awful, but not really as bad if it's a longer journey like Galway - Dublin.

[chuggachuggachoochoo]

Was reading about in the Indo also.

Having a look at the rail charter now and noticing this

"Users' rights for rail services include the receipt of information regarding the service both
before and during the journey.."

I would assume this includes information on the train destination and intermediate stops while on the train. The 07:18 train from Drogheda - Bray is ridiculous. 3 mins or so before each stop the driver announces the next stop. The volume is so low that if you're sleeping you miss your stop plus you've no idea of how many stops there is til pearse etc. Or how there is no electronic display in Drogheda, so if there's no one in the booth, you've no chance of knowing of any train delays.

Seems to be no provision that customers must be guaranteed a seat though :(

[PaulM]

Seems to be no provision that customers must be guaranteed a seat though :(

That is because commuters shouldn't expect one. Seats are nice but I do not expect one everyday, rather I am happy if I do get one. :)

[chuggachuggachoochoo]

I concur on that point, but what about in cases where passengers have pre reserved seating ?

I myself am happy to get one and don't expect to get a seat most of the time, I don't mind having to stand, as long as I have enough room to lift my water bottle up to drink :p

[Mark Gleeson]

You get a full refund if you are left standing with a reserved seat or get stuck in standard despite having a first class ticket

We are more than happy to do a trial run on this, its fairly trivial to select a train which claims to have first but doesn't and effectively travel for free once the refund arrives

Note the EU will mandate the refund be provided in money upon request of the passenger

[chuggachuggachoochoo]

That is comforting to know that prebooked passengers will get compensated.

I hope that Article 28; Complaints, will help to improve the rail system and customer satisfaction with

"..Within one month, the addressee of the complaint shall either give a reasoned
reply or, in justified cases, inform the passenger by what date within a period of less than three
months from the date of the complaint a reply can be expected."

and
"..The railway undertaking shall publish in the annual report referred to in Article 29(3) the
number and categories of received complaints, processed complaints, response time and possible
improvement actions undertaken..."

It seems quite promising.

[Mark Gleeson]

IE claim to do the within a month thing already, but its rare that they make the deadline

There is a secret report sent quartely from IE to the DoT with the performance results, problem is its contents vary widely, the first one was very good on detail the more recent ones are just passenger numbers and punctuality

Of course getting your hands on it requires some serious thought

[chuggachuggachoochoo]

That's a pity that the reports contents are allowed to vary - surely there must be some standards existing on what the report should contain, one might be inclined to have a negative view on this and wonder what details they are glossing over and not adding in?

[Rashers]

Here's the link to Today FM:
http://audio.todayfm.com/lwpodcasting.xml
Go to 25/09/07, first hour (i.e.5-6pm) @ 18 mins...
Weak interviewing by Matt, yet again......

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats about investment............................

No Barry its about attitude and lazy staff who don't bother to tell us

[CSL]

Once the DOT get it can't it be FOI'd ? it's not commercially sensitive since they have no competition.

[Mark Gleeson]

Once the DOT get it can't it be FOI'd ? it's not commercially sensitive since they have no competition.
How did you think we got it, I didn't do a mission impossible style absail, though as some members will know that is a very practical option for me at the moment :D

IE still retain the right to object to the application and that adds 3 weeks to the request

There is an awful lot of paper involved and its expensive very expensive and you need to know the exact name of the file to get the results. And I'm fairly sure I didn't get every document available

Members area has a selection of the documents

[Derek Wheeler]

I thought Barry Kenny kinda blew Matt and the MEP out of the water totally. He said the customer charter has been in place for 9 years - is that correct? The MEP (can't remember his name now) came on as if he was all knowledgeable and that this would make a big difference yet he had no idea about this charter!
Can you explain to me how they are in for a hell of a shock?
So what if they don't advertise this, why would they? Airlines don't advertise what your rights are with them

The only thing kenny blew was his....I mean hot air.

Our experience based on customer feedback suggests people don't know about it. Texts in the radio show suggest the same. There is very very little advertising to promote it since its inception.

The shock they are in for has already been explained.

They should advertise and promote it.

We don't do airlines here, we do railways.

Any more questions or rediculous ill informed opinions that serve to undermine the integrity of basic customer service?

[Jimbo]

Any more questions or rediculous ill informed opinions that serve to undermine the integrity of basic customer service? - DW

Is that aimed at me?

I think you should listen to the interview again. Your view of Barry Kenny has obviously dulled your listening skills, neither Matt nor the MP made any of the points Mark made above the most relevant of which would be an independent body who can fine IE. Why isn't a representative from P11 not engaging on the radio with Barry Kenny? Every time I hear him his debating skills murder the opposing side.
What customer feedback have you done? I would contend that any communting for any length of time would know about the refund system.
You still haven't explained why they would advertise this? Can you name other service organisations who advertise refunds if their product fails?

[Mark Gleeson]

Today FM select who goes on air not us, in this case they choose the MEP who actually voted on the regulation,
Irish Rail on occasion refuse to discuss on air with certain people, it has happened
Last word is not a phone in

I'd say in 50% of the time Barry gets on the air, we are there as well, off the top of my head I have recordings of us vs IE spokespeople (IE have two)

July 9th Newstalk
June 28th Today FM
April 12th RTE Radio 1
March 20th Today FM
Jan 9th Today FM

Most are available http://www.platform11.org/podcasts/ I'd give good odds we will be on the radio on Monday evening as well for another reason

Several of those Barry is forced into a corner, remember IE have a massive coverup operation to hide there flaws and always have some excuse. We have the knowledge to overcome this but as was shown on Tuesday your average irish politican hasn't a clue, though he was damn right IE hide the information

There will be a legal requirement to provide the information under the regulation, its buried in Annex 2, http://forum.platform11.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=613&d=1190795040 There is a list of things which must be provided before the journey commences

By not telling passengers of a right to a refund when the delay occurs IE will have committed an offence, by failing to issue the refund with a month, again an offence, by refusing to refund in cash (as currently done) offence, refusing to refund monthly holders for poor service, again offence. Failure to provide information on the carriage of bikes, wheelchairs at the time of inquiry online, again offence. The list goes on

[packetswitch]

You still haven't explained why they would advertise this? Can you name other service organisations who advertise refunds if their product fails?

It's far from unusual in the history of 20th century consumer law to require things like display of warnings, supply of information on either statutory rights or non-statutory guarantees, requirements for disclaimers, requirements for affirmative waivers, requirements for non-derogable duties of care, requirements for cooling-off periods....

Banks are required to provide certain information to customers and are of course banned from making certain claims (hence 'investments may fall as well as rise' which is only there because of legal requirements).
Airlines are required to provide information at various locations for the EU passenger rights
Many other providers offer 'money back guarantees' as an additional element without legal compulsion.
Many sectors require the cooling-off period to be communicated to the customer.

There's nothing new here - everything in the European proposal is based on accepted parts of the consumer law acquis and railways aren't getting some unfair bizarre system...