View Full Version : CDE Cork Dublin Express train to enter service
Mark Gleeson
05-02-2006, 22:37
Just received word from a usually reliable source that
Iarnrod Eireann will attempt to introduce ONE new CDE Cork Dublin Express train set tomorrow
We don't know which service but it is likely to be starting from Dublin so its either the 7am, 9am or 11am
You heard it here first
Of course this is subject to change and no guarantees
Well cool its post 2000 as well
Mark Gleeson
06-02-2006, 00:20
Its now either the 7am or 9am as the 11am will be delayed by engineering works
ACustomer
06-02-2006, 09:53
I like the way you say "attempt" to introduce a CDE set. Sounds like you have great confidence in IE!
Seriously, I am a little surprised at just one set. As far as I am aware at least 4 sets have been delivered to date. The 7.00 ex Dublin is one of the CityGold sets, (each of which does 3 journeys per day) and it alternates with the 0700 ex Cork. Maybe they will introduce one CDE to-morrow and another the day after, thus establishing two alternating sets in service to replace the CityGolds.
But maybe that's being too rational.
Maskhadov
06-02-2006, 09:57
anyone going to take any pictures ?
Mark Gleeson
06-02-2006, 10:06
We got a call last night stating a strong possibilty of a CDE set entering service on Monday. If it appears we will know. To be honest we where expecting a full media circus to milk the moment but CIE and IE have always been low key, the first passenger DART service left Pearse on July 23rd 1984 just before 7am with no cermony just like 150 years before no big deal. Big bang introductions tend to leave egg on face.
There may be 4 sets here but only 1 is ready to roll as the others still have to complete mileage accumulation. Normal game plan is to introduce a single set and see how things go passengers are great for breaking things as they stress test things like doors and toliets.
Do you know how much mileage Mark?
Mark Gleeson
06-02-2006, 11:11
Something like 10,000 km running with 4,000 km fault free thats 19 full round trips Dublin Cork, a service train currently only manages 1.5 round trips a day
Thomas J Stamp
10-02-2006, 11:27
I have seen one of the CDE's going past my house at night. It seems to be a lot brighter inside and also the yellow signs on the sides were working. Also it was going at full pelt and sounded different to other trains.
Mark Gleeson
10-02-2006, 11:46
There seems to be a regular run which leaves Inchicore after 7pm
All the house lights have been on as has the full information system they seem to be shadow running after certain Cork services
The only oustanding concern is with the new train is the number of seats, a standard Cork train is nine coaches, 6 standards + buffet + first + gen van, about 500 seats but the new Cork train is 8 coaches, only 5 standards so you are short about 80 seats thats not an issue when running hourly buts its a problem currently.
They may form the sets into 9 coach sets till hourly begins they may not its a step back if they don't
James Shields
10-02-2006, 12:20
They may form the sets into 9 coach sets till hourly begins they may not its a step back if they don't
Even after hourly running, there will be certain services that will have higher demands. Would it be possible to have a couple of 9-coach sets for those trains or would that mess up the whole thing of running identicle sets?
Does a CDE coach have the smae number of seats as a Mk3?
ACustomer
10-02-2006, 12:55
Lostcarpark: when the service goes hourly, 9-coach sets will be neither possible nor advisable. While some services (say the 1700 down) may experience excess demand, other services provided by the same link will not, and it's out of the question to shunt a set just to add or subtract a coach (what's the point of push-pull in that case?).
Furthermore with hourly services it appears that there will be 8 eight-coach sets: 7 will be in use and one will be spare/in maintenance on any weekday. This leaves 3 more spare vehicles to make up the full order of 67. I assume these are a DVT a diner and an end coach, as it's a bit of a disaster to run short of one of these.
The problems of excess peak-hour demand should be solved by on-line reservations and clever peak-load pricing. This might also make IE money: after all it's what very commercially successful arilines do.
ACustomer
10-02-2006, 12:57
I forgot to ask in my last post: Did the CDE actually go into service this week as forecast at the beginning of this thread?
Mark Gleeson
10-02-2006, 13:22
Does a CDE coach have the smae number of seats as a Mk3?
Roughly, the wheelchair space and toilet take up a few seats thats the only difference
To run an hourly timetable you need 7 working sets, there are 8 full sets on order plus 3 spare standards.
It may be possible to increase 2 sets up to 6 standard coaches but that leaves things very tight the trick being to roster the sets correctly you wouldn't swap coaches around during the day. With seat reservations etc varying the train length lead to trouble. Now if you could bring the journey time down from 2:40 to 2:20 you would need only 6 working sets which would make longer trains possible, the shorter time would increase demand as well
Of course a shorter train weighs less and accelerates faster which gives you shorter times without spending money on the track
ACustomer
10-02-2006, 15:26
All 3 spare coaches are standards ??!! This looks very short-sighted. Surely the DVTs are (a) absolutely indispensible to the running of any and every CDE train and (b) are easily the most complicated part of the kit with lots of thing which can go wrong. Madness not having 10 of them.
Mark Gleeson
10-02-2006, 15:40
All 3 spare coaches are standards ??!! This looks very short-sighted. Surely the DVTs are (a) absolutely indispensible to the running of any and every CDE train and (b) are easily the most complicated part of the kit with lots of thing which can go wrong. Madness not having 10 of them.
To run an hourly timetable you need 7 working sets, there are 8 full sets on order plus 3 spare standards.
Makes perfect sense, there is one full spare train plus 3 further standards, there are 43 standard coaches out of a total of 67 so it is right to more spares. The enterprise setup has one single spare of each type, there is no fallback. IE learned the leasons from that and now there is one full spare set full a few of the most common coach type. It would of course by lovely to have heaps of spares but try selling that to the DoT
Mark Gleeson
10-02-2006, 20:19
Latest update suggest Irish Rail will introduce one set for customer evaluation in the next week or so
In plain english that mean on days when they feel like it on quiet service they might try out the new set
A bit late for customer evaluation at least NIR had a massive customer consultation before they ordered there new trains
Derek Wheeler
10-02-2006, 21:07
"a period of in-service trials"
Thats the official line from IE as of today.
So its a case of catch it if you can. As soon as we have exact times we'll endeavour to notify those interested. They look great (except for the freight loco at one end:D ) and like many others, Im looking forward to using them.
Please note P11 will be reviewing this new stock on the basis of what they offer the customer in terms of comfort and on board facilities. More technical reviews from board members can be posted at will.
Mark Gleeson
10-02-2006, 21:23
In the interests of passenger accessibility, infomation and legal compliance we have 19 page long checklist waiting to go. We already have identified a number of issues
A ride report from a MK3 service has been prepared to evaluate ride comfort. The MK3 BT10/22 is the accepted benchmark for ride quality
Seat and table spacing on the MK3 fleet has been recorded for comparision
As soon as we get word a team will deploy quietly in mystery shopper mode. And in best tradition the measuring tape is coming
Are they running now? Has anyone here (Mark :D ) been on one yet?
Thomas J Stamp
17-02-2006, 16:51
there were two of them loitering around inchicore wednesday
There is a good chance you'll see at least one in Inchicore on any day.Its when there actually leaving Heuston or Kent that I want to see.
There is a good chance you'll see at least one in Inchicore on any day.Its when there actually leaving Heuston or Kent that I want to see.
I've seen a 3 different one (I think) definitely 2. I'd just like to know what they are like.
There was one sitting in the siding at Limerick Junction at about 11pm last night anyway as we passed in a MK3 to Cork.
I haven't seen one at Kent yet at all.
Any idea when these test in-service runs will actually commence or what trains are going to be CDE operated rather than MK3. Wouldn't mind trying one out.
James Shields
18-02-2006, 16:43
Wouldn't mind trying one out.
I don't think any of us would.
I expect that the first few passenger runs will be low-demand services so that there won't be too much impact if anything goes wrong. They'll be snuck in with no fanfare whatsoever. For all I know, this may have happened already. I imagine they will gradually be taking over from the Mk3s, so that by the time they are officially launched they will already be in use on most services.
I don't think any of us would.
I expect that the first few passenger runs will be low-demand services so that there won't be too much impact if anything goes wrong. They'll be snuck in with no fanfare whatsoever. For all I know, this may have happened already. I imagine they will gradually be taking over from the Mk3s, so that by the time they are officially launched they will already be in use on most services.
The trains look nice.
But I have a real worry that the Cork users will end up with a raw deal.
I am of the impression that CAF don't know how to do suspensions right, at least not for Ireland. Everything else on the IE network seems to have relatively simple suspensions that work, whereas, if the 29ks are anything to go by, the CAFs are overly complex and suck.
What I think we need now are clear answers to 2 questions.
1: What is the condition of Dublin-Cork track and earthworks vis-a-vis that of Dublin-Longford/Sligo?
2: Is the suspension on the CAF CDE more stable than those of the CAF 29K?
It's hard to know how the suspensions will be as we have absolutely no experience of CAF high speed rolling stock to go by. I would assume that the suspension system on a 125mph capable heavy coach would be substantially different to that of a commuter train. Afterall, IE have the 29K doing things that it was clearly never designed for. The suspensions are also probabally complicated by the fact that there are motorbogies involved. The CDE won't have any of that to cope with. They're just regular 125mph bogies. I've been on CAF stock in Spain running at 200kmph and it's been quite comfortable and I don't think the spanish network's necessarily all that smooth either. I've had trips from Barcelona to Madrid on older stock where you could order a plain coffee and the shaking would give you cappuccino. The newer stock was nice though. Smooth, well air conditioned, comfortable and fast.
The enterprise is suffering from the same problems that some of the Eurostar stuff that has been used by GNER has. It's expecting to be on LGV (Ligne Grande Vitesse) the ultra smooth lines the TGV runs on. Apparently GNER's eurostars can get a bit bumpy when running on battered UK mainlines. Hopefully, the CDE won't have this issue.
It's also a 125mph Push-Pull set up which means it will possibly have to be quite stable in push-mode. It also means the coaches are probabally quite heavy ... i.e. heavy enough not to jump off the rails if pushed.
I'd like to see the exact specs for these coaches as length and weight will have huge impacts on stability. Part of the reason that European coaches are so smooth is that they're way heavier and longer.
The Cork-Dublin line certainly has the odd bumpy bit. I don't know how it compares to other lines on the network, but even in the MK3s you do occasionally get the odd bit of shuddering. Although that being said, it's a lot nicer than a bus trip. At least you can actually leave a coffee on the table and have it stay there without a lid.
My tests would be :
1) can you leave a coffee on the table and not have it land on your lap and
2) can you comfortably type / work on a laptop.
If the CDE can do both of those... it'll be quite acceptable.
The MK3 is being given a little too much worshiping on this site to be quite honest. I have never found them to be a very comfortable coach by european standards. They're not all that smooth and the seating's horrible. There are FAR nicer intercity coaches around.
If these caf coaches are sufficiently heavy, have their centre of gravity in the right spot and can cope with a few bumps they'll be fine trains.
I am not going to be overly pesimistic about these coaches until I actually end up with heinekin all over my lap!
They look nice, they'll be an excellent marketing tool and they'll attract a lot of people back to rail again.
The current MK3 fleet is OK but it's knocking on and starting to look a bit tatty (nothing that a very minor refurb wouldn't fix). A new pointy silvery-green train will impress the punters big time! It's just like soap powder marketing.. New All improved Ariel Ultra verus good old fashioned Ariel.. even if they're identical in everyway the new one will have the flashy branding and the fancy packaging. People go for that kinda thing!
Once CAF update their website we'll see exactly what the specs are.
We need to compare like with like though. Don't critique the CDE while looking at the MK3 via orange tinted glasses that over look the odd bump here and there. Yes, the MK3 has better suspension than any of the other stock on the network but it's not THAT smooth.
Also, if I am informed correctly, BREL Mark 3 coaches had quite complex suspension. It's not exactly what you would describe as simple stuff. The MK2 and Craven units certainly have simple suspensions which is why they're so springy.
Finally remember that the CAF railcars are spec'd for commuter running which also means that they can skimp on comfort for the sake of cost. They're not an intercity product and really should be compared with the LHB, Mitsui and Alstom EMU (Dart) and DMU stock that's on the commuter network and not with the heavy MK3 BREL coaches or even their MK2 and cravens predecessors.
It's a bit like trying to compare a double decker bus to a luxury coach. They've very different functions and very different levels of comfort and suspensions.
However, it's perfectly fair and reasonable to put the Enteprise up against a MK3. They're supposed to be equivilants. However, don't forget most passengers are actually quite impressed by the Enterprise and don't really moan about the bumps. Their main quibble is the lack of frequency and reliability which comes down to a business decision by IE and NIR not to buy enough of them in the first place!
Mark Gleeson
20-02-2006, 00:18
The MK3 is the accepted benchmark for a intercity train. I've never said it was perfect but the ride is good and it gets better the faster you go. There are bumps you get on a 2900 you just don't notice in a MK3. I've got a list of all the bumps from Dublin to Thurles so a almost scientific comparision is on
The laptop comes with me everywhere I go, I've written pages of a thesis in MK3 coach on Sundays along with the crisps and beer and to be honest there are certain places you stop typing as you know its too rough. Ride is a subjective thing and has all kinds of jargon
Basic things like legroom and seat spacing count for a lot, larger enough tables, seats which line up with windows thats what the passengers want. Will the PA volume be right ?
We just don't know yet and we look forward to trying it out
Ah don't worry the lads will get the PA totally screwed up... You wouldn't want the customers knowing where they were or anything like that. The PA mic will be dunked into a pot of tea before every announcement as has been the tradition on all IE trains for decades. :)
Red Alert
24-02-2006, 22:20
I always find the PA nice and loud on the Mk3's and in fairness to IE, the Air Conditioning does in fact work compared to Mk3 sets I've been on in Britain. It held it at ~15C on a roasting 25C day in the summer.
Why did IE buy new engines for the cork sets? Could they not have used the GE ones?
Mark Gleeson
24-02-2006, 22:46
They haven't bought any they repainted the 1994 batch
Kevin K Kelehan
25-02-2006, 16:20
How long have these trains been hanging around for now?
It is not that they are even that great; a bit of a Voyager as opposed to a Pendolino if you ask me and there is a huge difference on the inside in terms of comfort and train times. London Coventry yesterday in 48 minutes
There are a few things to note about the Irish MK3s that differenciate them from their British cousins apart from the automatic doors on the irish fleet.
CIE ran everything using 220/380V 50Hz 3-phase (same as the power supplied to any Irish or European building).. this gave them a lot more scope for add-on equipment and is generally easier to work with.
The heating system is different and the air con units aren't quite the same either due to the power supply differences.
It's also worth noting that the IE MK3 fleet is substantially younger than the MK3s commonly found in the UK.
CIE's fleet dates from 1984 onwards, much of it is younger than the LHB Darts.
By the 1980s the BREL air conditioning systems had improved a tad!
I have no idea who makes the air con kit on IE's fleet, but I would agree it generally does work. The coach-end doors being open at either end can render it much less effective though.
Kevin K Kelehan
27-02-2006, 18:45
Mr X I'm talking about Pendolinos and Voyagers not Mark 3 or BREL which now only operate as spares or on the Eastern and South Western lines.
freeluas
01-03-2006, 23:59
So as of March 1st, theres no show of the new trains? Anyone got some information.:confused:
Mark Gleeson
02-03-2006, 00:20
I came within 10 seconds of nabbing the guy in charge today to ask, damn
We have a date, time and platform number but it has not been confirmed
Once we have a confirmation we will post full details
Mark Gleeson
06-03-2006, 11:15
Contrary to reports elsewhere indicating the CDE set going into service on the 9am to Cork this morning it did not
Thomas J Stamp
13-03-2006, 12:09
On Irish Railway News a poster is reporting that the reasons why the cde isnt in service is down to:
1. Problems with doors.
and
2. UNION TROUBLE!!! Oh yes, yahoo!! IE want to have a super-guard who will do ticketing duties (so combining two jobs into one?) and this is presenting a challenge to the harmonious running of staff/managment relations.
Oh, and the ride quality is supposed to be poorer than the mk3's as well.
Mark Gleeson
13-03-2006, 12:22
The train manager issue was pointed out to us in November, its not major per say the train can go into service without a resolution. The current situation is farcical as the bulk of ticket checkers have guards certificates anyway and with the increase in service levels there won't be anyone out of a job. It is in theory possible to operate a CDE set driver only if its driven from the control car
The ride is a bit iffy we knew that, we just don't know how iffy. The MK3 ride is unusual its hard to pin down why it is good as it shouldn't be. Its not that much better than a good MK2 (yes I've been on a IE MK2 at 90mph). It is miles better than the enterprise coaches
Doors are always a problem and are the number one item on the list normally of issues, the issues can be to do with how they operate under fault conditions. A defective MK3 door will actually open itself when a train comes to a halt
James Shields
13-03-2006, 13:51
Reminds me of a carry on movie... about loos!
Thomas J Stamp
13-03-2006, 15:24
Carry on at your conveniance? A factory run by a Mr Crapper? I liked that one.
What was the film starring Peter Sellars? I'm all right Jack?
Fingers crossed there are no more hitches / cows on the line / unions demanding extra money due to the new liveries!
I wanna get on board one of these things soon, preferably before they are covered in moss due to lack of use!
Kevin K Kelehan
14-03-2006, 10:17
They must by waiting for a bye-election on the route to pull the rabbit from a hat
Thomas J Stamp
28-03-2006, 10:23
April starts this weekend and still of sign of these yokes getting into passanger service. What gives?
Mark Gleeson
28-03-2006, 10:47
The delay is having a significant negative impact on service reliability
Its either the doors or the unions or both. The first trip was to be December, then January, then February then March. Not there yet it would seem and no sign of being even close
It could be the fact that the doors are not approved by one of the unions. You know how fussy they can get :D
Any updates on the status of the CDE fleet? They're quite late at this stage. I'm starting to think that there's some massive technical problem. They couldn't possibly be taking this long.
Mark Gleeson
10-04-2006, 23:29
Well I can confirm that its not the doors, the trains are not signed for by the CME though despite been deemed safe
We have received new information and it aint good
James Shields
11-04-2006, 10:28
So if it's not the doors, that only leaves one thing?
Mark Gleeson
11-04-2006, 10:29
Indeed
Thomas J Stamp
11-04-2006, 10:42
Mark, what's the CME you mentioned two posts up?
Mark Gleeson
11-04-2006, 10:47
Mark, what's the CME you mentioned two posts up?
Chief Mechanical Engineer in Inchicore, he has to sign the trains into service which in doing so transfers ownership from CAF to IE
There are a few issues with the coaches but nothing show stopping and nothing that hasn't effected coaches both here and abroad in the past
Mark Gleeson
11-04-2006, 15:11
Its the unions without question
IE have dodged this issue when asked with double speak about further testing, put simply train is safe to carry passengers, yes it does have some issues to iron out but they are not mission critical
The whole thing is based on the train manager issue
Firstly the driver is responsible for the train, in modern times the guards duties are to open and close the doors and supervise the heating and lighting. The 201 class locomotive and the CDE coach control car have lighting and door control buttons on the main console so even the driver can do that
Driver only operation is in place on the majority of services so the need for a guard anyway is questionable so the plan was to get the guard to take over a customer service role checking tickets and ensuring the passengers where kept happy, as many complain IE staff are well known for hiding in the guards van so this is all good for passengers. If it where to all go pear shaped there is still a trained member of staff on the train
Thomas J Stamp
11-04-2006, 16:10
Classic. :D
Mark Gleeson
11-04-2006, 16:40
The counter propaganda machine has rolled out, its the cows fault
Remember the cow that met its end last year when it got demolished by a CDE control car, well thats the cover story for the delay, that of course that is only 1 of 67 coaches. Two other train sets where available for testing, staff training and millage accumulation at the time
The train did not derail which in turn proved the train safe in high speed collision. If this had been a 1970's design control car it would have ended up derailed in small pieces. Polmont Scotland marked a major design change which possibly saved the lives of the staff on the CDE train
For Gods Sake :mad:
You would have thought the IE mgmt would have seen this one coming. God knows they have had enough experience dealing with their Unions over the years. This should have been nipped in the bud months ago before even one of the new units arrived in Ireland. The jobs for the boys brigade are holding the rest of us to ransom again - They should be ashamed of themselves.
craigybagel
11-04-2006, 23:38
So what do we think the chances are of a solution anytime soon?
Thomas J Stamp
12-04-2006, 10:28
I imagine this is a big benchmarker for the unions. Put yourselves in their shoes. Firstly this train dosnt need as many staff (a point I'll come back to), which may lead to redundancies, very unlikely, but you know. This is onely the Dublin-Cork direct service. Then, in December, the first batch of inter-city DMU's come in. Now I personally dont know but I can imagine the fear in the Union is that these trains also will not need guards and ticketmen, simply one or the other. These trains will be everywhere by, what, 2008?
These trains also dont need shunting trains in Heuston/Connoly and other terminii. Those lads will also have to find something else to do. Add in the reducetion and evelutal elimination of manned crossings and signals and suddenly theres a lot of lads looking for something to do.
What to do with surplus staff? Well, there could be a balancing equation, if there are more DMU's than there are exisitng trains and therefore more services they should all be OK job's wise but there may be a bit of re-traiing and maybe the dreaded word of demarkation may arise, which leads to a, ahem, "Negotiated Settlement".
Look, I'm not in IE, or anything else, but I was once a member of a union and we could see things like this coming a mile off. Also nowadays i have people who work under me and I have to be able to plan for changes and see things coming from a managment perspective. As posted above surely IE managment know the score? Why do they have to wait till the last second before they realise that things like this have to be accomodated and planned for in advance? If I ran my office like that I'd lose all my clients and Mrs TJS would be wondering why I'm at home all day.
But then maybe that's the problem.
With that kind of attitude we'd still be using steam engines... I mean where did all those stokers and boiler men go?
New trains might mean new services, more passengers, more jobs..
Typical CIE union attitude!!
Mark Gleeson
12-04-2006, 21:50
Guess who was at the labour court today
ACustomer
13-04-2006, 07:56
Imagine if SIPTU and allied trades were around at the start of the railway age. We would still have stagecoaches to Cork, with changes of horses at Naas, KIldare, .....
Mark Gleeson
13-04-2006, 08:51
The guards tried this last time in 1987, they went looking for 12.5% increase, why because the then new MK3 coaches had automatic doors, apparently having central and electrically verified door locking makes the job more difficult at the same time they gave out about new tail lights (legal requirement for over a century) and having to carry a walkie talkie, all of which were imposed by the railway inspectorate. There was even talk of looking for money for the track circuit bar which is only used following a derailment or accident.
Needless to say the claim was thrown out
Problem is even reasonable improvements which make the workers life easier are contested. We don't know exactly what is going on but without question a equal level of blame goes to the unions and management.
Kevin K Kelehan
13-04-2006, 09:51
Still not resolved then
Time time run a book on operational entry date
Derek any suggested odds?
At the end of the day we are the ones suffering again because IE and the feckin unions couldn't sit down and work all this crap out months ago. Im really and truly sick and tired of both of them. :mad:
If this keeps up every change that is made on the railways forever more will be delayed by months. We need the transport minister (whoever they are) to give the unions and IE a kick up the arse to get these issues resolved early in the process because its obvious if they are left to their own devices they cant organise a pint in a pub!!!
Derek Wheeler
15-04-2006, 00:34
Still not resolved then
Time time run a book on operational entry date
Derek any suggested odds?
Im giving evens on end of May. A full 6 months after expected entry. And then it will only be in service trials. IE continue to deny, but the evidence is there in the public domain. Im compiling all similar situations at the moment. (Ive already mentioned DART to Greystones in another post. Add to that the attempt to get more cash for driving longer DARTs.)
Disaster.
Derek Wheeler
15-04-2006, 00:44
The "pay-off" offered to guards was only equal to 3 years wages. As many of them are no-where near retirement age, they've decided to stay. Problem.
Some are accepting. But its a mess.
All new developments on the IE network will have to be cleared by unions. Ive used the word disaster before and I'll use it again.
Disaster.
There are definitely 4 full sets.
On the way up from Cork there were two sitting at Limerick Junction and a further two (with lights on at the sides) at Inchicore.
The only other explanation that I can come up with for the late launch is that they're waiting to have enough sets available to launch a full Cork-Dublin 2-hourly service. At least that way they'd have a good high impact PR launch as everyone taking the cork-dublin service would be on one of the new trains.
Would 4 sets be sufficient to do that? They'd still have MK3 back up should the need arrise.
Then gradually ramp the service up as the rest of the fleet arrives.
How many sets are they getting in total?
Kevin K Kelehan
18-04-2006, 09:41
Derek,
you are right this is an issue that needs to be resolved given the move towards guard free trains; the difference between a guard and a train manager has never been clear to me.
Looking at Pendolinos the front & back carriages have a storage area which can be used much in the same way as a guards van i.e. for newspapers or bikes. Are these units any different?
Mark Gleeson
18-04-2006, 10:14
There are 8 sets in total, plus 3 spare standard class coaches, to make up 7 8 coach sets plus one spare set. Currently the fleet is formed in 4 9 coach sets, but I think 5 sets are here. They need 5 to operate the current timetable but they could do it with 4 if pushed. It would be a very brave manager to do a overnight change thats not on the cards
Things are going to reach a critical point in the next few weeks as the existing MK3 fleet is stretched there are no spares its only a matter of time before a set reaches overhaul mileage. The passenger experience has degraded over the last few months. The second a CDE set enters service a MK3 set will be sent to Inchicore to get overhauled, it won't be until several CDE sets appear will a cascade start.
Guard free trains are common place already, the drivers have had no problem with it, ok they do get a payment for doing so. No one is quite clear on train managers but it goes like this
Train manager is the most senior staff member on the train
Driver is in charge of train, train manager in charge of passengers
Train manager gives the signal to get the train moving
Still unsure to if the driver uses the door controls but they are provided
The CDE sets have lower passenger capacity than the Mark III sets, so presumably, they won't be entirely introduced until the service is ready to go hourly.
Introducing the new sets and then having customers complaining about more people than ever having to stand would not be good PR for their introduction.
Mark Gleeson
18-04-2006, 13:01
Fixed that problem as IE have now set the sets up as 9 coach sets, which leaves the difference in seats to about 20, the upside is the ability to properly carry wheelchair passengers. I've spotted a few Cork trains running as only 8 coach sets recently as IE are having trouble keeping enough coaches available.
CDE coaches will go into service once the union issue is solved, which in turn will mean extra coaches on other services. I wouldn't be surprised if an odd extra train appears in the interim
You can already book seats on all Dublin Cork services so you don't have to stand (moved following discussion on seat reservations to new thread)
Mark Gleeson
08-05-2006, 15:25
Ok finally it looks like its going to happen
A while back we where told mid May 2006 and thats next Monday
The following has been formally confirmed to Platform 11
The first service will be A202 9:00 Dublin Cork
The MK3 set normally used will be withdrawn for overhaul once the CDE set is in service
No cascade of MK3 rolling stock will take place until several CDE sets are in place
If it happens we will be there if not I get an extra hour in bed
ACustomer
08-05-2006, 17:16
Assuming May 15th (at last) is a "go", has the Train Manager issue been solved, or is there a fudge with Guards being deployed in traditional mode pending Labour Court negotiations, etc, and if so will there be strike blackmail later?
Mark Gleeson
08-05-2006, 20:25
We don't know but information is coming in which matches the conditions we expect
Don't anyone get out of bed early we will have full report and photos by about 1pm
James Shields
09-05-2006, 08:41
Hmmm, where's the first stop? And when's the first train back from that stop? Could be tempting to take a jaunt.
Mark Gleeson
09-05-2006, 08:50
Kildare is first stop, I'll be going as far as Thurles (I can justify that and I can back in Dublin for lunch)
I know the line to Kildare well including all the bumps but the key is to see how it behaves when the foot goes down and it gets to 90mph and that means beyond Kildare
We have not confirmed this date but I'm a lot more confident than before
Mark Gleeson
09-05-2006, 09:18
I can now confirm that IE have withdrawn standard class seat booking from the 9:00 to Cork on the 15th, its available this week but not next week which indicates that a non MK3 set may operate the service
James Shields
09-05-2006, 10:21
I can now confirm that IE have withdrawn standard class seat booking from the 9:00 to Cork on the 15th, its available this week but not next week which indicates that a non MK3 set may operate the service
So you'll just have to book yourself premium seats. :-)
Mark Gleeson
09-05-2006, 10:28
Given its the quietest train to Cork I think I'll take my chances with the 340 odd standard class seats, I can of course pay to upgrade to first
James Shields
09-05-2006, 14:26
I thought these trains were better equiped for seat booking than any other, with digital displays over every seat for booking information. I would hope that they've already tested that the booking system works properly and integrates with the website.
Oh well. Hopefully they've just switched it off as a precaution and it will be available again soon.
Thomas J Stamp
09-05-2006, 15:46
I thought these trains were better equiped for seat booking than any other, with digital displays over every seat for booking information. I would hope that they've already tested that the booking system works properly and integrates with the website.
This being the company that runs trains northbound to Bray and cant get what computer controlled PIS it has woking property. I look forward to seeing the digital display over a cork seat telling joe that he's booked for Galway.
Mark Gleeson
10-05-2006, 14:55
Latest word in from Cork is there is a set trapped in the peoples republic and there is no Cork driver is willing to drive it back
IE contacted for comment denied this despite staff on the ground admitting it
Mark Gleeson
11-05-2006, 09:50
More has been revealed by the online timetable
The 13:30 Cork Dublin for next week has the following note "Runs on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday from 15 May until 20 May.", can't book a seat on that either
Mark Gleeson
12-05-2006, 20:02
Now got official word of unoffical action by Cork based drivers in Cork from Monday
Ah don't worry you'll see your name scrolling across the front of the train with an incorrect spelling, your credit card number displayed along with expiry date and security details above your seat.
I am seriously sick to death of IE drivers / disputes. They'll kill the railways if they continue like this, people like reliability.
These disputes are terrible PR, they look ridiculous and just confirm in the mind of the general public that our railways are incapable of progressing.
James Shields
14-05-2006, 11:08
So the trains will be able to get to Cork, but they won't be able to get home again?
Or will they operate but only be run by Dublin drivers?
This seems a very silly dispute. The Train manager one made a certain amount of sense, as there were new work practices that had to be agreed, so at least half the blame lay with IE management. However, the drivers are doing pretty much what they've always done. In one direction they're driving the same ol' 201, and as I understand, the CDE cab at the other end is pretty much a replica of the 201 controls.
Or is pressing the "door close" button a major extra responsibility?
Mark Gleeson
14-05-2006, 12:09
The 9am and 1:30pm return are Dublin drivers and staff so no issue
Dublin based drivers for years have operated on a driver only basis, there is a small payment per hour for this which was a agreed ages ago, the Cork drivers have no come back as they voted to accept this back in 2000
As I understand it the Cork Tralee and Cork Cobh service the driver releases the doors as there is no guards door key on Irish trains
Mark Gleeson
15-05-2006, 09:39
As if I needed to report, train A202 9:00 Dublin Cork did not run and no sign of any CDE sets in Heuston
James Shields
15-05-2006, 09:46
Berely even a train to be seen when I was there. A Mk2 set for the Galway train, and a commuter train on another platform were the only trains in sight around 8:55. Mind you, I didn't check the newer platforms.
Kildare Commuter
17-05-2006, 18:28
From Irish Times, Breaking News, 17 May 2006
Unions at Irish rail are to recommend the introduction of the new high-tech trains that sparked this week's rail strike.
The Joint Siptu/NBRU National Locomotive Drivers Committee made the unanimous decision to back the introduction of the new Mark IV InterCity Trains, beginning May 22, after talks with management today. The trade unions plan to consult their members in the interval.
The strike began on Monday after two Cork-based drivers refused to operate a new high-tech train that the company had planned to bring into service on the Cork-Dublin route.
The action spread yesterday with drivers based in Athlone and Galway joining those in Dublin, Cork and Limerick who had stopped working on Monday in support of their two colleagues.
The drivers returned to work today after a deal was reached with Iarnród Éireann in the early hours of this morning. A deal was reached after 14 hours of talks. The intensive efforts to resolve the dispute, assisted by industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn, continued late last night and agreement was reached at 1am.
Minister for Finance Brian Cowen made his opinion on the row clear earlier today.
"We are here to provide services for our citizens, for commuters, and they shouldn't be inconvenienced in the way that they were. It gives the public service a bad name, one that we shouldn't be giving to it if we respect IR [industrial relations] machinery ," he said. "I'm glad that there has been an intervention now to resolve the immediate problem, but we shouldn't see it repeated."
He said he hoped the social partnership discussions that currently taking place would be successful, and that there would be clear commitments that the events of this week would not be repeated.
The unofficial action lead to severe disruption to services on Monday and yesterday. There were no trains between Heuston Station in Dublin and Cork, Galway or Westport, while only one train ran between Dublin and Limerick.
Only the Waterford service from Heuston was operating to a near-normal level.
This whole thing is a joke. It should have been sorted ages ago. Have IE EVER heard of Project mgmt ? They have been messing around with the job for lifers for years so they should have saw this coming. How come there was no consultation BEFORE these trains ever landed on Irish shores so that these trains could enter service ASAP.
We are a laughing stock again and im sick to death of these stupid disputes - Both sides are to blame.
One sad thing is for sure - this wont be the last dispute on the railways. Im sure we will see more damage to the economy by these idiots in months and years to come. :mad:
I saw a CDE set pulling out of Kent station today, Friday, at about 10:40 AM :) Power unit pointing into the tunnel. 201 at the rear in new livery. There didn't seem to be any passengers on board.I noticed that there was still tape on the steps of the carriages from the time of manufacturing.
Mark Gleeson
19-05-2006, 19:52
This all starts to fit together
The weekly circular issued last week said 9am Dublin Cork and 13:30 return would be set 4002, the one parked in platform 9 Heuston.
It is fairly well known that set 4002 is the only one suitable for passenger services, the above post clearly shows that set 4003 was not ready for service
Iarnród Éireann withdrew seat booking on those trains, 9am Dublin Cork and 13:30 return
We all assumed that the first service would be the 9am, I've been told that. There is a big question of how the 5:30 out of Cork became a CDE operated
What's the bets the drivers in the People's Republic will be too wasted tomorrow morning to drive the new trains?
Mark Gleeson
21-05-2006, 18:36
They won't be driving the new train for the foreseeable future
Mark Gleeson
21-05-2006, 20:01
At the moment no Cork driver is needed to drive as the 9:00 is a Dublin driver.
Your next question is what on earth happened in Cork last week, thats for later
James Shields
21-05-2006, 20:54
So is the first train 9:00 from Dublin tomorrow?
There was some mention of the 5:30 from Cork. The later service makes more sense to me since the 5:30 will likely carry a lot of people coming up to Dublin for the week. Apart from there being less people to see it if there were any problems, it's likely to attract a lot of media attention, and there's no point in having the media showing off how overcrowded the train is.
Mark Gleeson
21-05-2006, 21:22
The 5:30 set isn't the 9:00 set. There are no MK4's in Cork tonight to our knowledge
Train A202 09:00 Dublin Heuston Cork Kent will be a MK4
There are 5 Cork sets
5:30 Cork Dublin
7:00 Cork Dublin (citygold)
7:00 Dublin Cork (citygold)
9:00 Dublin Cork
9:30 Cork Dublin
Thomas J Stamp
22-05-2006, 10:04
Mark G is right, as per usual (waiting for the day and all that!) That 5.30 train is one I regualrly use and up till December was a Mark2d set, and fairly bad at that. In December was repleced by a Mk3. the crew is not the same crew as the 9.00am departure from Hesuton, but go down to Heston at about 845/50 and watch the crew leg it form their train to to 9.00am one to get back home as they go back as passangers on it. This I suppose is where people thought that as that cew go back on the 9.00 them they must bring the 5.30 with them.
dont know about the rest of you butI have been watching the board all morning to hear any news of the first run of the CDE so who was on it this morning :confused:
Did it actually run at all or did it just enter non-passenger service?
just heard on the 12 o'clock news that it has just made its first official passanger run arriving in heuston just before 12.
Thought it was the other way around. It left from Heuston at 9am arriving in Cork at 11:50am. Just wondering what time it would be heading back at.
I suppose someone could give Kent station a ring and see if they've any idea when it's going back.
I'd say IE will want to introduce the full fleet fairly soon though as the MK3s are in dire need of a few days at inchicore for a full servicing.
Any ideas where they're going to be running? I assume they'll be taking up service on any remaining MK2 services?
sorry my bad you're right I just heard word heuston at the end of the broadcast
why_does_planning_suck
22-05-2006, 12:19
lostcarpark, if you took lots of photos then put a few up on the forum !
Thomas J Stamp
22-05-2006, 12:27
that is excellent, cant wait for the full detailed techie review but lcp's review is more or less what i'm interested in as he's a normal punter who just wants to get somewhere without getting thrown around and his arse numbed into oblivion. so it sounds as though they have passed the test!!
Mr X they'll gradually be increased as they get to the 10,000 mile mark of running in. There are no mark 2's on the Dublin Cork line so probably by September all of the Mark 3 will be gone from cork, I think all the Limerick rakes will be those Mark 3's from then as well as Galway, the mark2's from them being withdrawn. The cravens may live onm in their usual Friday only spots but the mk2's will go there eventually.
Next year when the Intercity DMU's come in it'll be fun. I guess that the push pull mark 3 will get Belfast after a repaiint to shore up enterprise. Where the rest go is anyone's guess.
Red Alert
08-06-2006, 20:45
I've heard either here or over on boards.ie that the mk2's are suffering corrosion problems whereas the cravens are not, so they might be scrapped first. problem in the craven's is the heating vans, some of which do not work.
James Shields
09-06-2006, 08:47
problem in the craven's is the heating vans, some of which do not work.
Something of a blessing, at least as long as the sunny weather lasts!
Thomas J Stamp
09-06-2006, 09:15
Cravens are made from aluminium and the mrk2ds arent, which is why they are corroding. There is also a difference between what were the connolly mrk2's and the heuston ones, the connolly ones are in much better shape, I dont know why.
Apart from that, Cravens will freeze easily, they are steam heated and the lines give out and the vans dont work. Also, lets face it, they're over 40 years old, their time has gone.
Unless they were built of pure aluminum (which I doubt) and not aluminum alloy or "Alclad" they would be highly susceptible to corrosion as well, I spend my working day grinding corrosion off or repairing sections of another type of mass transit vehicle made more or less exclusively of aluminum (you should see what a bit of spilled cola or a leaky toilet will do)
It doesn't matter what the material is what is important is a properly implemented CPCP (corrosion prevention & control programme), as you said the connolly cars are in better condition then the heuston ones.
Mark Gleeson
09-06-2006, 09:42
Going off topic guys
James Shields
09-06-2006, 10:23
There was a topic?
The fact is the Cravens and Mk2s are all life expired, and it's just a matter of keeping the least-worst of them running until new stock can enter service.
It's great news that a second CDE set has entered service. Hopefully that means IE are on the right track to getting the Cork line fully CDE operated.
I think there are still a few sets yet to arrive from Spain, and I notice the yard at the Point Depot is being dug up at the moment. Quite a bit of the digging seemed to be around the tracks across it. Are these tracks being reatined? Will IE have to find a new way of getting trains into the country?
I also suspect the union issue is still not fully resolved, so I hope there isn't a timebomb ticking away there.
Mark Gleeson
09-06-2006, 10:38
We think 5 sets have been delivered, the coaches are coming through the Eucon container yard now
Currently the service needs 5 sets to run, if you tighten things up you can get away with 4 sets and rotate the 5th through as required if there is a major delay, the fact all trains have citygold accommodation allows this
I was just wondering if we could clarify which trains are known to be operated by "MK4"?
I know the 0900 - Dublin - Cork is.
Mark Gleeson
12-06-2006, 08:54
I was just wondering if we could clarify which trains are known to be operated by "MK4"?
I know the 0900 - Dublin - Cork is.
As is the 13:30 Cork Dublin except Saturday when its the 14:30.
This is still a trial train so it could be pulled from service at anytime
So, at the moment it's still just the one set?
Mark Gleeson
12-06-2006, 10:19
Second set due any day now but there are suspension tweaks for the first so it might still mean just one
Kildare Commuter
13-06-2006, 12:25
I think the second set may have been brought into service, DVT 4003 was on the 0900 Heuston-Cork this morning.
Mark Gleeson
13-06-2006, 13:13
Thats makes sense, remember 4003 was the set the drivers in Cork refused to take out, 5 weeks later it enters service. IT WAS NOT SERVICABLE on May 15th
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