Sallins pay parking

[NB1]

Does anybody know if (when) this is kicking in ? I occassionally use sallins & last Friday I noticed what looked like fittings for a pay & display meter !!:mad:

[Mark Gleeson]

When you get back to your car and find it clamped, well they started that morning

Irish Rail won't tell you and of course charging for parking at stations is counter to all sense in the provision of integrated public transport

[2Funki4Wheelz]

I spotted a complaint about this in the letters section of the metro today.
Lots of people writing letters everywhere about IE lately.

found it 571

[NB1]

How do IE expect their "customers" to make alternative arrangements should the prospect of paying to park their car on top of the already hefty cost of using the train ???

[Derek Wheeler]

How do IE expect their "customers" to make alternative arrangements should the prospect of paying to park their car on top of the already hefty cost of using the train ???

They don't care. Furthermore NASRUG appear to be in favour of it and the reason why is a conflict of interest. But thats their bag.

P11 policy on this issue has been developing over the last few months and we have flagged this in local media. As Mark has correctly pointed out, we believe the introduction of pay parking is counterproductive to promoting the use of rail transport for daily commutes. The issue of subsidised "local" transport to integrate with rail stations now needs to be examined in an urgent manner. Park and Ride is failing, due to poorly planned housing, a car dependent culture and the impossible provision of land to accomodate parking facilities. The real solution lies in expanding the public transport option. That should begin at local level.

[2Funki4Wheelz]

I remember when pay parking was being touted to Portarlington - it was in response to crime/vandalism levels and overcrowding - the IE stance was basically if you wanted a bigger & safer (cctv) car park you were going to have to pay for it.

People also asked about the possibility of adding the car park fare to your rail season ticket to make it cheaper, but with that level of complication the IE guy's eyes glazed over.

[Thomas J Stamp]

and overcrowding

A novel idea. Charge a fortune to stop you traveling. Who needs passengers anyway?

[Colm Donoghue]

I remember when pay parking was being touted to Portarlington - it was in response to crime/vandalism levels and overcrowding - the IE stance was basically if you wanted a bigger & safer (cctv) car park you were going to have to pay for it.

People also asked about the possibility of adding the car park fare to your rail season ticket to make it cheaper, but with that level of complication the IE guy's eyes glazed over.

Ah Integrated ticketing. It'll be here by 2014 ses the minister for transport.
Last year the Minister for transport said it'd be here this year...

[CSL]

to ask the actual question : is Sallins gone pay parking ? what are the daily charges ? Is CCTV installed and is there a security presence ?

[Mark Gleeson]

No security presence
The CCTV probably isn't monitored and probably has huge gaps in coverage, CCTV elsewhere hasn't proven to be much use
Sallins of course is unstaffed most of the time

Prices
2 euro a day / 5 euro a week

Despite the face the IE T & C's allow for a parking ticket no integrated ticket is being offered

[Thomas J Stamp]

Ah Integrated ticketing. It'll be here by 2014 ses the minister for transport.
Last year the Minister for transport said it'd be here this year...

No, that is integrated ticketing twixt Luas, DART, and Intercity and buses and things like that.

This is totally different. Maybe 2020 for this.

It should be there right now in the Park and Ride at the Red Cow.

[Colm Donoghue]

You're right, Tim Gaston of the rpa explained this to me over a year ago.


You have introduced smart cards for Luas but one cannot pay at Luas
carparks with these.

The existing Luas scheme will be replaced when the city-wide scheme is
introduced so RPA has decided not to add car parking to the existing
scheme.

Surely this little bit of integration could be achieved easily?
Was this considered by the rpa?
Why was it not done?

To achieve integration of car parking the existing software would have
to be modified and new equipment would have to be installed in the car
parks. The car park element would ideally include a barrier type
operation which is different to the platform validators used in the tram
system. The current car park equipment is not set up to read smart
cards and it would be quite expensive to modify them, especially if the
smart cards are to be replaced in 2 years.


He seems to have missed the point that the parking system was introduced after the luas started up....

[dowlingm]

charging for parking at stations is counter to all sense in the provision of integrated public transportWell... I'm not sure I'd go that far. Unfortunately the standard cost/benefit equation doesn't allow IE to consider spending money on feeder buses and bike lockers rather than purchase less/no land for car parking - and where would IE staff park their cars if there were not a car park? :rolleyes:

[Colm Moore]

and where would IE staff park their cars if there were not a car park? :rolleyes:By the fire exit, where the security staff normally park. ;)

[Garrett Cummins]

:mad: Please see press release issued by NRG yesterday - appreciate as much support on this one!!

Press Release

Decision Time Due for Rail Car Park

Last week councillors in Kildare County Council voted in favour of rezoning the land for the proposed new rail car park at Newbridge Railway Station. The decision to grant planning permission for the car park is now imminent.

Newbridge Rail Group (NRG) invited Irish Rail management and the candidates for the recent general election to a public meeting to discuss, amongst other thing, the proposals for the car park. Irish Rail intend to impose a new charge of €2 a day or €5 a week to use the new car park – they also intend to charge a similar fee for use of the existing car park.

NRG was mandated by the users of Newbridge Railway station to object the planning application on the following grounds:

1. The proposed development envisages pay parking at a suggested price of €2 per day. For a commuter who has an annual ticket currently costing circa €1,600 p.a., and uses the service 250 days a year, this represents a price increase of 31%. This increase will act as a deterrent to continued use of public transport and indeed lead to consumers reverting to using their cars thus leading to increased traffic congestion on major city roads and increase emissions which is contrary to recent EU statements calling for a reduction of car emissions
2. Public policy is to encourage the use of public transport. The introduction of pay parking for an existing rail service is contrary to public policy on transport

"This record level of investment in public transport will provide choice and an alternative to the private car, particularly in the major urban areas, thereby encouraging a modal shift from the private car to less polluting and less energy intensive forms of transport such as public transport"

- Extract from Dept. of Transport Statement of Strategy re Transport 21 and Sustainability.


3. Irish Rail do not and confirmed they will not provide a free public transport alternative to get to the train station in Newbridge like they do for Sallins, and Hazelhatch, therefore if Irish Rail want pay parking they must provide a free alternative to the car
4. Pay parking will encourage rail users to park their cars in near by housing estates to avoid the parking fee; encroaching and disturbing owners enjoyment of their property
5. Irish Rail plan to charge for parking in the existing car park, which is currently for free. This is a change of use - should a separate planning application be requested for this??
6. Effectively the parking facilities at Newbridge railway station will become a public car park with no priority for rail users. This is contrary to the spirit and intention of Council’s decision to transfer lands to Irish Rail for the purpose of providing adequate car park facilities for rail users – not as a for profit enterprise
7. The ‘pay and display’ parking machines in the car park are not appropriate for commuters. This car park will not have a constant flow of traffic rather a rush in advance of the next incoming train and then a complete fall off.
8. One pedestrian bridge is insufficient to enable rail users to access the platform from the new car park if parked nearer the town end of the proposed development
9. No provision of lifts to enable mobility impaired users access the platform from the new car park
10. Road access from the new car park causing a road hazard for traffic leaving the existing station car park

At the public meeting in March Minister for State, Sean Power T.D. stated it was “…Unacceptable and unnecessary to bring in the cost of car parking ….with modern technology the cost should be part of the rail ticket” Sean O’Fearghail T.D., Fianna Fail, was totally opposed to pay parking and was going to talk to then Minister for Transport Martin Cullen TD about it. He also promised to raise a motion against pay parking within the Fianna Fail parliamentary party.

NRG and the users of Newbridge Railway Station await this decision and warn that other towns on the Kildare line should also be wary; if the introduction of pay parking in Newbridge stations is successful it is then only a matter of time before it is introduced in other towns.

[Thomas J Stamp]

You see, if Irish Rail really wanted to discourage the usage of their car parks by non-passengers they could simply issue a pass to those with seasonal tickets.

All they have to do is issue a laminated pass for the car park with your yearly ticket. You leave it in the car window and park away for free. On showing your seasonal ticket at the station (preferably on your return) the ticket office issues a ticket (or you are provided with a code) so that you can leave.

Of course you may be simply using the train on an occasional basis. Well, what you do there is equally simple. You take your ticket from the machine at the entrance barrier. You present it to the ticket office when purchasing your ticket and it is validated there with no money changing hands. The TVM's can likewise be programmed into the system.

When you come back off you go.

So there you are.

[dowlingm]

The NRG press release is a bit much - they want free parking and they also want more footbridges and disabled access etc. If IE can't recoup this from parking charges there's only one other place it can come from and that's ticket prices. Why should the guy who walks or cycles to the railhead subsidise folk that can't be bothered, or an urban council that has no inclination to make local transit happen?

They are right on one thing - public transport is to be encouraged from door to door. Congestion is as much an issue near railheads as it is in the city centre (e.g. Clonsilla). If IE are expanding their services then a public transit service once their passenger numbers pass a threshold should be a prerequisite as a condition for their station planning applications and the responsibility should be shared between the local council(s) and IE.

[Mark Gleeson]

No to be fair, everything is local is this business and you need to know the location to understand the issues

Accessible footbridges are a legal requirement when a existing one is replaced and the one in Newbridge is fairly tricky for a able bodied person

Access from the northside of the station i.e. the new car park is by a narrow bridge with little or no space for pedestrians

The real issue is IE want to charge for the old car park when the new one opens, that doesn't seem fair and there is a 8 digit sum available for park and ride development sitting in the DoT less than half of the 35+ million available has never been allocated.

IE are claiming priority is given to pay parking since it makes a return. Strange then that the extended car park in Thurles and the new one being built in Templemore are/will be free


We recognised that the car parking thing wasn't sustainable (see election demands), particularly in Newbridge given its a good 10 minutes walk to the town centre, a bus service would do wonders

[robert muldoon]

Would you believe I have been trying all afternoon to find out when the new access and parking facility is going to open and without success,- Irish rail, leinster leader etc. i was down there 6 weeks ago and saw reasonable progress, however i went down to Sallins yesterday at 4pm, the underground car park was closed up and not a sinner around and no one I asked knew anything, I just cant believe how long this work is taking to complete, i want to use the sallins to Heuston service but parking at the moment is just too much hassle - Can anyone enlighten me please??

[robert muldoon]

I have spent a lot of this afternoon without success trying to find out when the new parking arrangement will be open. I wont use the station at the oment as there is too much hassle trying to find parking space. I cant believe its taking so long,i was down there 6 weeks ago and i thought it would open in a couple of weeks,when i went down there yesterday at 4pm, there was NO work going on and there was no one there who knew any thing

Does anyone know whats going on??

[robert muldoon]

I spent some time on this today. I went down to the profect office in sallins and was informed that the actual car park for rail users is finished but the access from the car park to the station is not.So after a lot of patience toing and froing with Irish Rail a Myles Mc Hugh called me from IR and informed me that the contract for the work had been signed and work on this access route would be commencing before the end of next week, this work would take up to 2 -3 weeks, so people we are looking at early December. I wonder.....

[AZ1]

Hi!
Where can one get details of shuttle bus services between Sallins&Naas and Nas Town? (The details shown in IE's timetable are not that clear).
Can someone tell the name/number/website of the service operator, and where they drop you off in Naas?
Thanks in advance.

[Mark Gleeson]

It Popular Square (and yes that is the correct spelling)

It is run by a local private operator on behalf of Irish Rail who doesn't appear to have a licence to provide any class of service under the 1932 act and isn't shown on the annual licence list

Both Derek and Tom know the rest of the details and also that the service is utterly rubbish

Since its run on behalf of Irish Rail, you need to contact Irish Rail 1850 366222 or Irish Rail Southern and Western on 703-4499. Its IE's problem

[AZ1]

Thanks, Mark, for the info and the tel. numbers.
I wonder if we could ask Derek and Tom to post the details of the "service" here so that the info is available to whoever wants it, and since our institutions dont care?

When you can't get a lift (which you shouldn't have to rely on), it's no joke walking the 3 miles into Naas (largest town in Kildare), in the dark and rain because the shuttle's not there.

Can IE really utilize the services of an unlicensed operator?
And if things are not all above board, should this not be "shared" with the press, at least locally? Are they waiting for the proverbial accident first?

[Mark Gleeson]

All I know is there is no mention of a bus service from Sallins to Naas in the offical list of licenced routes. The service could be exempt from the 1932 act for some reason, it is only available to rail passengers

The operator is still insured and has the required certification and so on for the bus and its not a very big bus

Despite its less than reliable history withdrawal of the service is not in the passenger interest

Even if the service is in breech of the 1932 act the maximum fine is a trivial amount by modern standards

[AZ1]

Mark, I agree that withdrawal of the service is not in our interest, but having EASY access to operating info surely is?!
I can't figure our why this info is not clearly posted on a notice in the station.

If you take a look at IE's suburban timetable, shuttles times are entered in italics, but it's not specified whether the times stated are ex-Naas or ex-Sallins. The info is set up to lead intending passengers to believe that the shuttle service does actually exist and operate...

Derek and Tom, if you have that info, can you put it up here for us? Thanks!

[Mark Gleeson]

The times are very clear in the timetable a lot clearer than the past when it was a separate table hidden in the back of the booklet

Time stated is the departure time to/from Naas as appropiate. Times favour the flow of passengers, so morning its not a good idea try Dublin Naas

Departure time from Naas when heading to Dublin i.e bus that takes you to Sallins from Naas for a train to Dublin

It states clearly
Times in Italics denote bus departure times.

The entry in the timetable is consistent and in the correct order Naas is shown between Sallins and Newbridge, Irish Rail are infact to be commended for providing a proper integrated timetable for the Kildare line which shows all interconnecting bus services, it only took them 12 years to get it sorted out

[robert muldoon]

Quinn Reddin(Carlow) the contractor for the access route to the station woukd appear to have arrived on site in Sallins (at least the name is up on lamp posts), there is very little activity as yet,the area has been fenced off. I will try and contact them to see if there is a finishing date

[James_Lawless]

Hi all,

James from NASRUG here. Few things.

It Popular Square (and yes that is the correct spelling)

It's not actually :) It is so called as a line of Poplar trees originally graced the square. Although the alternate spelling has emerged colloqially.

Furthermore NASRUG appear to be in favour of it and the reason why is a conflict of interest.But thats their bag..

I don't get this comment.

We are perhaps neutral on it in the sense that there are alternate options to access Sallins station and there are many current car drivers who really could and should use alternate means. My own view would be that in an ideal world we could abandon cars out of the equation altogether and have a proper integrated transport system being the default first choice for all journeys.

So in a sense encouraging car use is contrary to principle of public transport. Elsewhere on the P11 site it is stated that ever expanding rail car parks are not the answer. To my mind if a token fee causes more people to cycle/walk/feeder bus than that is a good thing.

HOWEVER I do accept there are many who live in rural areas, urban areas off the feeder circuit, have kids to get to creche etc, are simply dependent on cars. The realpolitik of it is we knew it was coming, rather than fighting a doomed campaign we put our efforts elsewhere.

Back to the question of when it was coming I spoke to Myles today and yesterday on this, work started yesterday, it was significantly delayed but better late than never, we have also agreed some concessions to encourage usage over the initial period. Will be open by Christmas.

James

[CSL]

Any updates on parking per day/costs/CCTV/clamping company etc ? A thread has started on boards.ie regarding.

[Mark Gleeson]

We assume its the now standard 2/5 euro gig, it has CCTV but fat lot of good it will be. Euro Car Parks are the operator http://www.eurocarparks.ie/ and they do clamp

Irish Rail have refused to discuss the charge, though we finally got them formally note our opinion that if a charge is applied a visable return be provided eg security presence. The decision was made by the CIE board IE management seem to be powerless to over rule it

We have been told, if you don't want to pay you get no car park so it truely is a no win situation.

Following a submission made by us with respect to Pace/Dunboyne Irish Rail have informed us at a meeting and confirmed in writing that they are now investigating the possibilty of have a combined rail + parking ticket available through the taxsavers scheme allowing tax relief on the full cost of commuting

[plant43]

On the subject of car parks, is getting people who use it to pay for it not the fairest way of doing it? I can't imagine it's cheap to expand a car park and provide the extra facilities (assuming CCTV is installed and security personnel are provided). The only other way of doing it would be to integrate it into the cost of a ticket. As a non-car user who would sooner cycle short distances than drive I would find this grossly unfair. I think I read somewhere that the money brought in would also be used to improve bike parking facilities and this should be encouraged in my opinion.

As for people who live in rural areas, they made the choice to live there and I don't think it should be up to me to subsidise that decision.

[Mark Gleeson]

That would be grand but

1. The car park is there already, its just extra spaces, you park in the old space you still get charged

2. Irish Rail have access to heaps of cash from the DoT to build these car parks, but keep claiming they need to make a return on the investment

3. Not all new/expanded cark parks are being charged for

[plant43]

Should I, as a taxpayer, not be entitled to seek a return on investment? I'm not very familiar with what's happening at Sallins, but does Irish Rail pick up the tab for the access improvment works? Did the expanding of the car park require the procurement of extra land? Fair point about 3, I would prefer to see all car parks charged for equally.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thurles, Templemore not charged for

Fairly certain the expanded car park in Gormanston was done entirely on IE owned land. Its half empty

There is a DoT fund to pay for Park and Ride schemes, its there for the taking. Irish Rail are making it sound like they are paying for it and therefore need to recoup costs

The entire point of park and ride is to get someone out of their car and onto public transport. More people use public transport the lower the cost to the tax payer to provide it, less traffic

No one ever asks how a road will repay its captial costs, but public transport is forced to recoup every penny.

[BrianDeBruce]

Hi,

With regard to the new Sallins car park, as this is part of the Waterways development, is this under the control of the developer or Irish Rail? If it is the developer, are they under any obligation to charge the same price as Irish Rail or can they charge what they like?

Also,does anyone know when the charge kicks off, or when the underground opens?

Thanks,
Brian

[James_Lawless]

Hi James from NASRUG here.

There are 202 new spaces as part of the development.

There is a brand new underground car park part of the Waterways development and adjacent to station. The new carpark is looking good but the existing car parks not in great nick despite some work done recently. Need to chase up with IR in new year.

New underground section opened last weekend (15/16th Dec).

The charge is 5 euro for a 7-day ticket or 2 euro for a day pass.

There is no charge being applied until 31st December (we negotiated the waiver period to get it kicked off).

[Thomas J Stamp]

Nenagh car park has just been re-developed.

Nice big sign put up by Irish Rail at the enterance: Free Car Park.

Just so you'd know.

[dowlingm]

again - I have no problem with that. Nenagh services are not oversubscribed. When the car park is full start charging and funding a connecting bus from the proceeds. That's how this should work!

[NB1]

again - I have no problem with that. Nenagh services are not oversubscribed. When the car park is full start charging and funding a connecting bus from the proceeds. That's how this should work!

Thats all very well in theory but if you look at Newbridge as an example IE are planning to introduce a fee for parking but no prospect of a bus service to feed the station. No matter how the pay parking is dressed up in is merely an exercise in generating further income !!!

[Thomas J Stamp]

When the car park is full start charging and funding a connecting bus from the proceeds.

But you see, IE have said that the reason for charging is to:

1. Fund redeveloped Car Parks
2. Discourage non-train users using the car park
3. Disocurage those who live within walking distance from using the car park.

Dosnt square, does it?

This is simply a money generating exercise, nothing more, nothing less. The exact same services - CCTV et all, are going into Templemore and belive me it will be full everyday - but we have been promised that it will be free. Anyone else is being taking for a ride, simple as.

[dowlingm]

NB1/Thomas - I'm not saying that's what IE *are* doing, I'm saying that's what they *should* be doing.

As I've said before though, the centralising instinct in Ireland is partly to blame. Local authorities should be able to start a service like this with a minimum of fuss but instead the instinct is (a) to have central government order it and (b) to jump through all sorts of bureaucratic hoops about route licences.

This is not just about feed from nearby non-rail served towns that I've talked about previously. GO Transit extended their train service to Barrie this week and local bus routes were adjusted to serve the new station. Who runs those buses? Not the federal or provincial governments, not even GO Transit - the municipality of Barrie runs the buses, because in the end it is the municipality that suffers because of traffic jams in dormitory towns, since the people heading to work are doing so in another city.

Local urban councils in Ireland should either contract with a private firm or with Bus Eireann to run buses to stations to meet trains, and demand IE pass part of their car parking revenues to them. Those buses can then conduct other transit services outside of peak rail times. After all, if IE can demand money from local authorities for more rail, maybe local authorities can demand money from IE to deal with the consequences of rail expansion.

[Thomas J Stamp]

cant say I disagree with much of that tbh.

One day i must post about some of the things that really get my goat up, but I'm not in the mood today. In short this country is plagued by both NIMBY-ism and also INBY-ism.

Our rail network cannot cope purely because of this. We have more hospitals than we need, we have an airport in Shannon that isnt needed really, and because we have far more TD's than we need we'll never get out of the failures of the past that we all suffer with today. Why do we have an advance factory unit in almost every town in Ireland? Why is the NSS a waste of time and money? Why, why why?

We are a nation of dopes, thickos, greedy short-sighted morons and we're all fairly happy to wallow in our own filth as long as the money is good.

Does it matter that we're paying for car parks, extra on the Luas , paying over the odds on more things than we have ever paid before? Not at the moment it dont. But one day you will feel the hair snapping on the camels back. It may be a small thing. Perhaps you will turn up at Salins train station and you will not have that €2. You have time to to go the ATM. You dont have funds to take out the tenner and there's not enough petrol in your car to drive to Dublin. You go home and realise you're broke and the DD for the mortgage is going out tomorrow. You wont be the only one, believe me.

Happy Christmas.