View Full Version : Will Navan Man deliver?
Derek Wheeler
14-06-2007, 21:38
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Cullen gone and another muppet on the self destruct button in place. Being a "local", can he deliver Navan rail? I say no. If it happens by 2015, I'll walk its length naked playing, "Workin on the railroad" on the banjo!!!!!
James Shields
14-06-2007, 23:53
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Cullen gone and another muppet on the self destruct button in place. Being a "local", can he deliver Navan rail? I say no. If it happens by 2015, I'll walk its length naked playing, "Workin on the railroad" on the banjo!!!!!
You can play banjo?
Colm Donoghue
15-06-2007, 08:38
He'll be able to learn before the railway to Navan is open....
Is he there to deliver the rail link or the M3?
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Cullen gone and another muppet on the self destruct button in place. Being a "local", can he deliver Navan rail? I say no. If it happens by 2015, I'll walk its length naked playing, "Workin on the railroad" on the banjo!!!!!
Text saved.
Thomas J Stamp
15-06-2007, 16:22
The song is Working on the Railway, Derek......... kids today, eh?
Derek Wheeler
15-06-2007, 21:32
The song is Working on the Railway, Derek......... kids today, eh?
You're wrong senor Stamp. I have a copy of the tune in my library for P11TV.
Copyrighted, 1936, by Calumet Music Co., Chicago, ILL
I've been workin' on the railroad,
All the live long day.
I've been workin' on the railroad,
Just to pass the time away.
Don't you hear the whistle blowing?
Rise up so early in the morn.
Don't you hear the captain shouting
"Dinah, blow your horn?"
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah.
Someone's in the kitchen, I know.
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Strumming on the old banjo.
Fee, fie, fiddle-e-i-o.
Fee, fie, fiddle-e-i-o-o-o-o.
Fee, fie, fiddle-e-i-o.
Strumming on the old banjo.
So that will be me strummin on the banjo in Drumree, if Dempsey proves me wrong, because even up to a 2 and a half year cabinet review, he will have to start the project, if its to be completed anywhere near 2015.
Derek Wheeler
15-06-2007, 21:57
Just got word from T Stamp that he watched Patsy Watchorn (a HE, not a SHE) sing it every Saturday night in the Lower Deck. So both Stamp and Watchorn are wrong.
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Cullen gone and another muppet on the self destruct button in place. Being a "local", can he deliver Navan rail? I say no. If it happens by 2015, I'll walk its length naked playing, "Workin on the railroad" on the banjo!!!!!
which banjo?
you might get tired strumming all the way to navan.
especially if you're blowing your horn.
Derek Wheeler
16-06-2007, 19:50
which banjo?
you might get tired strumming all the way to navan.
especially if you're blowing your horn.
Im stoppin off in Drumree to get the Banjo tuned and apparently there's a fine lady up there who's into naked banjo players!!!!
packetswitch
16-06-2007, 19:56
Naked banjo players and blowing of horns. I'm shocked at you all. Definite proof of the absence of trainspotters...
In terms of if Navan Man can deliver the Interconnector, I am still a bit sceptical but the first step of action is admitting the problem/situation. This could be a good thing:
Taken from the programme for government 2007. I got this from the Green party website it is contained in the full document.
• Build the interconnector between Docklands and Heuston stations. The interconnector will allow the integration
of all existing and new Dublin suburban rail lines and facilitate interchange between them. Given the
importance of this project to the delivery of a fully-integrated public transport network in our capital city, we
will immediately investigate ways of expediting this project.
giving that during the election campaign the Green party mentioned fast-tracking some elements of the interconnector including the electrification of the Maynooth and Kildare lines. Might they have pushed for this???
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 11:43
Just got word from T Stamp that he watched Patsy Watchorn (a HE, not a SHE) sing it every Saturday night in the Lower Deck. So both Stamp and Watchorn are wrong.
Actually, it was this song:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pogues/poor+paddy_20109774.html
Poor Paddy Works on the railway/ working on the railway.
Oh, and Patsy Watchorn is a little known minor musician who led a never heard of it band called The Dublin City Ramblers and this very day leads a group of nobodies called The Dubliners. He also had this song written for him:
http://www.lyricsmagnet.com/song/IRISH+MUSIC/THE+RARE+OLD+TIMES_lyrics_clirrz.html
but you wouldn't expect these Kildare heads to know that sort of thing.
I apologise for not knowing such an obscure railway related song (Derek's one) however, the P11TV Greatest Hits of the Railway presented by Derek "Preservation" Wheeler will be in the bargain bin of all bad record shops, and IRN, soon.
Brian Condron
18-06-2007, 13:23
I apologise for not knowing such an obscure railway related song (Derek's one)
Jayze Mr. Stamp, I'd hardly call "I've Been Workin' On The Railroad" obscure, it's a quite famous American folk song! One of the few songs I learned in national school and can still sing 15 years later (obviously they never taught us the last verse in school).
Anyway, I'd advise you to get yourself up to speed with this FAMOUS song, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Been_Working_on_the_Railroad. I have been known to reference it in conversation, and it really annoys me when folks don't get my references
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 13:54
I have been known to reference it in conversation, and it really annoys me when folks don't get my references
Oh Jesus this is getting worse..........
Nurse, the Screens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 13:57
I would say "Back on Topic" but I cant remember what the topic was.
We some outfit, arent we? Eight posts about a bloody railway song. It's a sad day.
Brian Condron
18-06-2007, 14:10
We some outfit, arent we? Eight posts about a bloody railway song. It's a sad day.
It's Monday.
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 14:37
It's ok Brian. Its nice to know that, despite threads like these we're held in high regard by the public.
Bow
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 14:38
its ok Brian. Its nice to know that despite threads such as this we're held in high regard by the public.
Bow Wow Wow.
Nice Dogie.
We were talking about whether Noel Dempsey would be capable of delivering on the Navan railway.
I doubt it, and thats judging on past event, although I hold him in higher regard than Martin Cullen or Seamus Brennan.
I think the Greens might have more of an impact on the Navan motorway and rail line than Dempsey will.
It might be too late for them to stall it but the rail line could get up and running quicker because of them.
Thomas J Stamp
18-06-2007, 16:35
We were talking about whether Noel Dempsey would be capable of delivering on the Navan railway.
I doubt it, and thats judging on past event, although I hold him in higher regard than Martin Cullen or Seamus Brennan.
That was it!
Yes, oh about that............we have a plan.............
See its not all sarcasam and tomfoolery here.
Navan Junction
18-06-2007, 23:11
the rail line could get up and running quicker because of them.
Very valid point. Let's see what happens.
And poor oul' Dempsey is from Trim btw - really localises the whole rail issue now
Meathontrack MIGHT need to change its strategy, and follow the Westontrack strategy. Westontrack have been very clever, if you look at a particular angle.
They demand the reopening of the line from Ennis to Collooney. They'll get a lot less, but they'll get whats actually needed, which is Limerick to Galway direct.
Westontrack could demand the reopening of the Navan line all the way to Kells and Cavan and the reopening of the branch to Trim.
By demanding more than is needed, perhaps they could get the line to Navan.
Its just like an auction. Lobby for more than you need, and you'll get some of what you wanted in the first place.
Dempsey on Questions and Answers last night suggested that now he's Minister for Transport Navan would happen quicker and if he could get the rail line to Navan done before 2015 then he would.
Colm Donoghue
19-06-2007, 08:10
Martin Cullen told the country about how the railway order would be signed in a cupla weeks just before the election....
Seamie Brennan announced Middleton rail opening soon.
FF announced Terminal2 at Dublin airport would be open in2003...
Dempsey announced third level fees, electronic voting. proven track record if ye'll excuse the pun
James Shields
19-06-2007, 09:06
Meathontrack could demand the reopening of the Navan line all the way to Kells and Cavan and the reopening of the branch to Trim.
(Minor slip of the keyboard corrected in italics).
As far as I know the Meath on Track website was demanding just that, as well as the immediate reopening of the Drogheda line with non-stop trains. However the current version seems a lot more moderate. Perhaps that was the wrong approach.
Also, the words "social justice" don't seem to appear anywhere on the front page. Clearly they got a result for WOT.
I love the smell of social justice in the morning.
That phrase, "social justice", really gets on my nerves.
We tried social justice in Ireland. In return, we got the Tallaght Bypass, Mass unemployment, Emigration, the IMF knocking on the door, Hoodwink, cute hoor, cash in hand, nod, wink, nixer and brown envelope.
Social justice works in some countries. Social justice is needed for the most vulnerable in our society, but it is NOT applicable in any shape or form to transportation.
How on earth will Limerick / Galway work without reversing at Athenry ?
Will "Dial-Up" Dempsey deliver? I doubt it.
Will he mess with Transport 21? I doubt it. He will probably be as slow as Cullen though quicker than Brennan at signing off things but I cant see his appointment causing any major upsets or surprises!
Navan Junction
20-06-2007, 17:57
Will he mess with Transport 21? I doubt it. He will probably be as slow as Cullen though quicker than Brennan at signing off things but I cant see his appointment causing any major upsets or surprises!
I think he's made his first boo boo though. He mentions in an article this week in the Meath Chronicle that he is expecting completion of the Interconnector in 2011..
Mind you it is probably only fair to acknowlege that he probably hasn't even physically been in his dept yet
Lets hope we see real progress over the lifetime of this govt
From the Meath Chronicle:
http://www.meathchronicle.ie/frontpage/dempsey146s-new-role-best-chance-for-rail-project-705410.html
Dempsey’s new role best chance for rail project
Wednesday June 20 2007
Minister for Transport under pressure to deliver Navan-Dublin line by 2012
Paul Murphy
MEATH rail campaigners are convinced that the recent appointment of Noel Dempsey to the post of Minister for Transport is the county’s best chance yet of having passenger rail services between Dublin and Navan put in place much sooner than eight years’ time.
Those pushing the restoration of the line want the project brought forward by three years from the 2015 deadline set down by the Government so that the scheme will get under way well before the next general election.
In an interview with the Meath Chronicle this week, Mr Dempsey said that a major priority from a Meath point of view in the Department would be the Navan-Dublin rail line. “We will look at the possibility of a shorter timescale for this badly-needed project. I understand there may be a road block in Dublin causing difficulties,” he said, adding that he would be reviewing the Department files on the project “very quickly”.
He said that it was absolutely realistic to expect that commuter trains would be running from Navan by 2015 as the Government had promised and he brushed aside “cynics” who might believe otherwise.
He said he wanted to see how much faster it could be done, and he considered that the 2015 target was an “outside target” as far as he was concerned. One hurdle to be overcome lies at the Dublin end of the line where the interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock would have to be completed before the Navan line could be put into operation. He expected the Heuston-Spencer Dock link to be in place by 2011.
The Meath on Track lobbying organisation this week welcomed Mr Dempsey’s appointment as Minister for Transport and the Marine, saying that they considered it “a highly significant development” for the Meath railway project.
According to the organisation’s spokesperson, Proinsias MacFhearghusa, since news of Mr Dempsey’s appointment last week, there has been a marked increase in confidence in the county that the railway project would finally be delivered upon.
“When it became apparent that the new Government was likely to consist of a predominantly Fianna Fail and Green Party coalition, two developments during the election campaign became highly significant,” Mr MacFhearghusa said. “The first development was that local Green Party members managed to elicit an unambiguous commitment from the Green Party leadership that Navan would be a priority project if the party was elected to Government. The second was that local TD and Government Minister Noel Dempsey pledged to vigorously promote fast-tracking of the Meath railway project after the election,” he said.
However, both of these commitments had effectively been superseded by the “welcome news” that there would be a Meath minister at the helm of the Department of Transport for at least the next two and a half years, “which gives more than an adequate window of opportunity to progress the Dunshaughlin and Navan railway project to the Railway Order stage.”
Meath on Track said t was imperative that the project was moved to Railway Order stage immediately. “The Taoiseach has made it clear that he intends to carry out a mid-term review of cabinet ministers within two and a half years.” He believe that now is the time to bring the Navan Railway Order stage, and to aim for construction to start on the project by late next year.
The Meath of Track spokesperson said: “Commencement of works in late 2008 is easily achievable, according to Iarnrod Eireann, and, more importantly from a timing perspective, the date is well in advance of the Taoiseach’s mid-term review scheduled for 2009. If Minister Dempsey ensures that the Railway Order is progressed as quickly as possible, then construction could start in late 2008 and the line would be up and running before the 2012 General Election.
“Iarnrod Eireann have stated that they can do it within a five-year timescale and we are confident that Minister Dempsey is now in a position to ensure that the project is advanced immediately and without further delay.”
MoT said that if the Navan line was not immediately brought forward for a 2012 delivery, there was a very real risk that a change in government, or even in the transport ministry, could have negative repercussions for the Meath railway project. “If the last decade has taught us anything, it is that we have to take opportunities such as this with both hands,” the organisation said.
Mark Hennessy
21-06-2007, 08:17
Lots of diggers and clearing works at Clonsilla this morning anyway.
Thats a good article, some great quotes from MOT to appeal to the very local nature of Irish politics.
I noticed the diggers this morning. Thought i was seeing things. Good to see something happening. Out of interest how did the public consultation meeting in last night
Navan rail will compete with the M3 for passengers. The worse the road, the more popular the train and vice versa. With the M3 a certainty, the M50 upgrade and junction improvements coming soon, things ain't looking good for the train. You can spend all the billions you like on new track and trains but why bother when you're still going to get the same old 'don't care' attitude from the staff feeding into low quality of service. At least the road can't go on strike.
Is there no way to drive trains automatically? It can't be rocket science. Just stop and go, open the doors, close the doors.
Mark Gleeson
21-06-2007, 16:14
Well regardless of the M3 and M50 the fact the traffic could move faster isn't actually that important its just going to get to a bottle neck on the Navan Rd or somewhere else
Doing some simply maths a annual ticket holder with tax relief on the ticket would pay less per day than a one occupant car in fuel and tolls.
60 mile round trip say you can get 35 mpg
1.7 gallons -> 7.735 litres @ 1.10 => 8.50 a day in fuel
Lets say the toll is 2 euro each way and assume free parking (unlikely or if the case you likely taxed on that)
Now at 12:50 at day
Annual ticket is currently for a 30 mile commute 1665
48 weeks work, 5 days is 6.93 a day before you get the tax relief on it which is significant, at least 20% so now at 5.50 a day, so even with 2 in the car train is still cheaper.
52 minutes to Dublin centre by train even with the motorway is going to be damn good, Drogheda has a motorway and avoidable toll, trains still are packed.
And yes trains can drive themselves, the DART was designed to do that but as this morning showed not a good idea in open countryside
48 weeks work, 5 days is 6.93 a day before you get the tax relief on it which is significant, at least 20% so now at 5.50 a day, so even with 2 in the car train is still cheaper.
Don't forget the PRSI that you and your employer save. I estimate that it costs me about €3 per trip to Tullamore (105km) It costs €2.60 for the toll!
Derek Wheeler
21-06-2007, 21:12
He said that it was absolutely realistic to expect that commuter trains would be running from Navan by 2015 as the Government had promised and he brushed aside “cynics” who might believe otherwise.
That's me! Thanks Noelly!
He said he wanted to see how much faster it could be done, and he considered that the 2015 target was an “outside target” as far as he was concerned. One hurdle to be overcome lies at the Dublin end of the line where the interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock would have to be completed before the Navan line could be put into operation. He expected the Heuston-Spencer Dock link to be in place by 2011.
Well that's funny, because his predecessor said that Docklands was the station for Navan trains and now the bould Dr. Lynch from CIE is citing Broadstone as the solution for Navan trains. It's all here lads across many posts.
My original ascertian still stands. Not by 2015 by the hair on my chiny chin chin!
James Shields
21-06-2007, 21:57
The M3 should be fantastic for the journey from Navan to Blanch, and the M50 upgrade will make it easier to get around the city. But at the end of the day (well, actually, the beginning), most commuters will still need to find their way into the city centre, and unless you want to shell out €12 each way to use the port tunnel (as about 5000 cars are currently doing), that's still going o be a pain.
Derek Wheeler
21-06-2007, 22:38
The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.
What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?
For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?
For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?
In fairness, I would recommend that person either moves house or moves job because that is a desperate distance to commute for a living. Navan (MCC)needs to provide more opportunities for people to work in and around Navan as well as transport links.
What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?I doubt metro west will go ahead. It's just too stupid. I can't see the RPA going ahead with it when it's clear it will have no passengers, unless they make a tram that can carry cars.
For example, I know people in Navan that work in Sandyford. How will T21 rail projects work for them in line with a competitive public transport journey time over 40 miles?um, I think the idea is to change at liffey junction. So it might take 45 minutes to Liffey junction and then 20 minutes to Stephen's Green and then 22 minutes to Sandyford plus allow a few minutes to change train - so an hour and a half all in.
Compare that to driving. M3 + upgraded M50 from Navan to Sandyford should be do-able in 90 minutes @25mph. thing about the train is that you need to get to the station first, presumably you drive to the p&r from your 7bedroom McMansion in a field outside Navan where you have been enjoying the good life miles away from any other human lifeform.
Mark Gleeson has shown that commuting by car from Navan would cost about 7 quid more per day than taking the train. But put yourself in the mind of Navan man in 2012, in his car, pulling out of his gravel driveway. Thanks to Dempsey and MoT, he's now got a choice:
either
drive to the P&R wait for train, fretting it doesn't show, stand on steamy train for 45 minutes, feeling ill, get off at windswept station, wait for Luas, endure journey through town just above walking pace, arrive in Sandyford station, 10 minutes walk through rain to office.
or
turn on radio and climate control, light cigarette, lie back in leather seat and just keep driving down the newly-built, billion-euro M3, get on to the M50 using the new billion euro junction and extra lanes, arrive in Sandyford where most companies provide parking for free to employees. get out of car, get in lift.
OK, so the second option costs more but the only immediately visible cost to the motorist are the tolls and he probably has eazypass. And if you're a Navan commuter you'll have got used to the idea of paying a fortune in petrol bills.
Would P&R be free in Navan? If not it will be like a toll to use the train.
There is no BIK on parking and there never will be.
This is why I disagree with building the M3 and upgrading the M50. People will only use a train if driving is really ****e.
Spot on Willow, you've hit the nail on the head there. It's unfortunate but that's the way most people think.
In fairness, I would recommend that person either moves house or moves job because that is a desperate distance to commute for a living.
I know NJ is going to hit me for saying this but maybe there's a good argument for not supplying a (commuter) train line to Navan or any other outlying areas and spend the money building up a proper network of rail inside Dublin. We could spend the next 30 years playing catch-up and facilitating people who have or will decide to live outside Dublin and end up bringing them all to the city centre instead of building up a network inside the city and bringing people where they want to go.
Navan Junction
22-06-2007, 23:06
from your 7bedroom McMansion in a field outside Navan where you have been enjoying the good life miles away from any other human lifeform..... pulling out of his gravel driveway.
You talking about Navan or Cavan here? :D Obviously Navan's recent achievement of being rated Ireland's second dirtiest town has not destroyed the utopian image of the town built up so carefully by estate agents over the past decade
maybe there's a good argument for not supplying a (commuter) train line to Navan or any other outlying areas and spend the money building up a proper network of rail inside Dublin. We could spend the next 30 years playing catch-up and facilitating people who have or will decide to live outside Dublin and end up bringing them all to the city centre instead of building up a network inside the city and bringing people where they want to go.
It's a fair point. However, traffic moves fairly well within the M50 limits, and the main traffic problems seen in Dublin are on the approaches to the M50 from outside the M50.
In my mind, getting rail to work in Dublin is most important where it can relieve congestion on the M50 approaches.
Ironically, finding a rail solution that would relieve the M50 approaches would also have an effect within the M50 limits as well.
I know what you are saying about towns like Navan - the planning has been atrocious. Many of the houses here could have been built quite easily near Swords, Clondalkin, etc.
But because an influx of people funds a local economy, developments like Navan/Trim/Kells/Ashbourne/Rathoath are tolerated. Politics.
BTW, the image of gravel driveways is way off - most of the houses in Navan are 3 bed semi's, not unlike those you'd find in D15, Tallaght, Clondalkin etc. Just visit Johnstown, aka 'Little Dublin'.
Navan never really did ranches (Cavan yes, Meath no) and any generousity in house/garden size disappeared in houses built post 2000.
You have to examine the logic of the sprawling commuter belts all over the country, but you also have to realise that they are there not out of lack of planning, or foresight. They are being built as a result of a passive permissive encouragement on the part of the government, to develope local economies using eager house hunters as cash-cows to fund it
I'm a bit tired, and maybe what I've typed is rubbish but I think I've half explained my thinking... I reserve the right to edit/rewrite etc tomorrow..!:D
Oh, and in relation to the junctions on the M50 I think they do need to be upgraded. The N3 one will be semi-freeflow btw
And there is BIK on park afaik - if your employer rather than your good self pays it.
Anyway, there is more than a fair possability that Mr Wheeler may never be forced to expose his musical instruments in Drumree so don't worry about it too much
Derek Wheeler
23-06-2007, 00:07
NJ answered the points that needed answering in relation to some of the stupid comments made above and he did it in a far more polite way than I would have, if I had got there first.
Willows T21 based journey from Navan to Sandyford via public transport utopia only highlights even further that our supposed transport planners think routing everything through the city centre is the way to go.
But I will continue to insist that my "musical bits" will be viewable by December 2015. In fact I may do it by 2010, as by then, I don't believe any solid work will have commenced on the Navan line.
Colm Moore
25-06-2007, 12:57
The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.However, an awful lots of people still do.
Of course few people realise that the Naas Road inside the M50 is the second largest destination.
Mark Gleeson
25-06-2007, 13:09
1. Dublin City as in draw a 2km diameter circle from College Green
2. Airport and its surrounds
3. Tallaght/Clondalkin/Liffey Valley/Blanchardstown bascially the worst bit of the M50
Its not impossible but not a sensible commute to undertake
Navan - Liffey Junc, train
Liffey Junc - Sandyford, luas
Navan - Drumcondra, train
Drumcondra - St Stephens Green, Metro
St Stephens Green - Sandyford, Luas
Navan - Connolly/Pearse/Grand Canal Dock, train
Connolly/Pearse/Grand Canal Dock, Blackrock, DART
Blackrock Sandyford, bus
Prof_Vanderjuice
25-06-2007, 16:17
Given Metro West and the proposed Tallaght-Sandyford bus service, the following would also be possible:
Navan - Porterstown, train
Porterstown - Tallaght, Metro West
Tallaght - Sandyford, bus
However, I'm not sure how the timings would stack up.
James Shields
25-06-2007, 21:41
Well in my experience on the London Underground is that the quickest way is almost always the one that requires the least number of changes. I've tried taking shortcuts, but the extra transfers almost always eat up any time you save on a quicker route.
There are exceptions, of course - you don't want to go all the way around the Circle line, and whatever you do, don't try getting from central London to Uxbridge on the Picadilly line.
Originally posted by Derek Wheeler
The biggest misnomer with rail travel is the belief that everyone wants to commute to the city centre.
What are the plans to connect navan rail with any other transport mode in Dublin west? Where will the very sad project that is Metro west connect?
So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.
CONTRADICTION???!!
So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.
CONTRADICTION???!!
I assume Derek would like the Navan line to connect with a well-planned, well-executed orbital line instead of a half-luas, half-camel light-rail line that will meander round west dublin at slower than slow speeds and avoiding at least one major trip generator?
Thomas J Stamp
26-06-2007, 13:33
No contradiction at all as far as I can see.
Derek is pointing out that the existing plans are a half-arsed metro which does not connect the biggest footfall generators in west Dublin (the three big shopping centres and associated retail parks) and which itself does not connect efficiently with the Navan Rail line.
Derek Wheeler
26-06-2007, 23:18
So if i understand you correctly Derek, you are advocating for the construction of rail lines that do not run through the city centre, yet you are seemingly opposed to the only orbital rail route (Metro West) that is planned.
CONTRADICTION???!!
You must be new around here, because, simply picking out one post like that and adding "contradiction" in caps suggests you are.
So, get this straight. I am not opposed to an orbital rail line/metro in Dublin and never have been. In fact, if you'd taken time to read my contributions here, before diving in, you would quickly learn that, I am one of the few that promotes cross radial rail solutions in Dublin, due to the huge traffic problems on many cross radial road routes, such as the M50, Kylemore road etc etc. Problems largely ignored by T21 and the DTA.
However cross radial rail solutions in Dublin must serve the major foot fall areas and integrate with existing rail and planned rail. Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner. Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North.
Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit) West Dublin was ignored, in fact abandoned many years ago by transport planners. Thats why celtic tiger Ireland gave it the car and best of luck to them. They had no choice. Now its offered the shambles that is Metro West and it will mean toss all difference to those who's lives were dictated by constant ambivilance to Public Transport in west Dublin. Pretty much the same as the ambivilance displayed towards social services, education, health etc etc in the same region over the years.
clonsilladart
27-06-2007, 13:09
Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner. Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North.
Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit) West Dublin was ignored, in fact abandoned many years ago by transport planners. Thats why celtic tiger Ireland gave it the car and best of luck to them. They had no choice. Now its offered the shambles that is Metro West and it will mean toss all difference to those who's lives were dictated by constant ambivilance to Public Transport in west Dublin. Pretty much the same as the ambivilance displayed towards social services, education, health etc etc in the same region over the years.
Couldn't agree with you more Derek!!!!!
Derek Wheeler: You must be new around here, because, simply picking out one post like that and adding "contradiction" in caps suggests you are.
Yes i am very new around here. This is 'suggested' in much clearer terms by the caption reading 'new to the board' under my username. :D
DW: cross radial rail solutions in Dublin must serve the major foot fall areas and integrate with existing rail and planned rail. Metro West and the details we have so far, fail to address this in the best possible manner.
1) From what I can see, if the route option 1 is chosen with relevant sub-options, each of the major footfall areas would be served by metro west... Seeing as the route could start within a stones throw of the square, run through clondalkin village, past the fonthill industrial estate, past both the cinema and M&S entrances to liffey valley and run directly between the West End and Red Entrance car parks at blanch. To my eyes, this route would provide very adequate connectivity between the major footfall areas.
2) Further, it is clear that both of the route options have stops to facilitate interchange with Maynooth/Navan DART, Hazelhatch DART, Lucan Luas and Red Line/Citywest Luas. Again, this seems good to me, could you describe for me what the optimal integration would be? and how the current (potential) arrangements are inadequate?
DW: Firstly, it is not a metro. It's a slightly higher spec Luas. Secondly, if done in a proper manner, it would be built entirely underground and run through both The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanch town centre. In fact, if it actually was a proper metro it could run in an "S" like fashion serving Ballymount, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Blanch, (thats just a teaser) before it connects with Metro North. Bottom line. Its a cheapo project that integrates with damn all and is driven purely and simply by developers interests. (which is part of the RPA's remit)
1) There's no dispute on your first point, even the RPA states in the FAQ section on its website that metro west is "designed as a Luas line that can be upgraded to Metro when required." However, I dont see why that should be seen in a derogatory sense. Clearly, when/if it begins to operate (given that it will will run at road level and in the beginning, have a similar operating capacity and tram length) it will effectively be another luas line.
However, the RPA have stated that the line will be built with a potential capacity which is double that of the luas, and that as demand increases, service will become more frequent and the longer metro north trams will be brought to use on the line. That seems reasonable to me.
I see a parallel in this debate between the Red Line Luas and the Green Line Luas. The Green Line was built with an (almost) entirely road-segregated track and has had longer trams and more frequent service. Alternatively Red line has to share road space with traffic and has shorter trams. Now, in line with demand, the longer trams are being brought in on the Red Line so to increase its capacity. Why cant the same approach work for Metro West? Or does it follow that the Red line luas was only a 'half-baked' project aswell?
2) The cost of a 28km+ tunnel would make the project completely unviable. The RPA say that surface lines are 5 times cheaper than underground, 3 times cheaper than elevated. As there are serious questions regarding the cost-benefit of the project as a it stands, talk of underground or elevated is completely unrealistic.
Furthermore, if you take metro north as a reference point, the benefit of an underground metro west in terms of decreased journey time doesnt compensate for the increased cost to the taxpayer in my opinion.
Stephens Green to Swords (17km route) will supposedly take 26mins on Metro North, an average speed of just above 39 kmph.
Tallaght to Dublin Airport (28km+) will supposedly take 60mins on Metro West (plus a short spurt on Metro North), an average speed of 28kmph.
At the Metro North average speed, this same journey would take 43mins. Given the cost savings, I think a maximum of an extra 17 mins on your journey is not excessive. Surface line is far better value-for-money in my opinion.
3) Provided we lay a substantial burden of the cost of infrastructural projects at their door, developers involvement is welcome as far as im concerned!
Derek Wheeler
27-06-2007, 22:51
Read your post once. I'll get back to you on it and its faults, as at the moment, Im preparing for a savage weekend of fun and no transport discussion with anyone bar the ticket checkers on the Cork line.
But by all means, everyone pile in and share your thoughts, while Im enjoying life.:D
CIAO. (Derek packs bag and zooms out the door.)
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