[24-04-2007] Evening herald article on Broadstone station

[ThomasJ]

I know we are going into unchartered territory in relaying herald stories but this article in Yesterdays (Tuesday) evening might be of interest. Whether its believeable or not is another story!!!!



The train now arriving at Broadstone Station is ... 40 years late by Caroline Crawford

A new generation of Dubliners may soon see the opening of one of the city's oldest stations.
The Broadstone station, which has been closed for over 40 years, is set for a revival under ambitious plans from Iarnrod Eireann.
The move could see the beautiful station reopen it's doors within the next eight years, according to a spokesperson for Iarnrod Eireann.
"We are are in the process of planning at the moment for future development. We have such huge growth at the minute that we need all the City Centre capacity that is possible." Barry Kenny told the Evening Herald.

Mr Kenny added that the railway tracks servicing the line were "largely" still intact but added that alot of work had to be done.
The reopening of the Broadstone station would also tie in well with plans for the new Navan line which is due to open in 2015.
Mr Kenny said he expected to see the opening of the station in the "medium-term future" and suggested that it could be completed within the next five to eight years.

Broadstone is one of the city's oldest rail stations and the old building has won much praise for it's architectural style.
It was described as the most monumental of the four main railway termini in Dublin.
However passenger services at the station were withdrawn in 1937 and it was turned into a maintenance depot. The station was slosed up completely in 1961 when steam locomotives ended.

Now the historical building acts as a bus depot for Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann and its forecourt is a surface carpark.
For years now the building is better known for its grand appearance than its appearance as a railway station.
Sited on a hill, its most dramatic feature is the railway shed with huge columns. The station was designed in a neo-egyptian style and constructed of granite.

In the past there have been calls to turn it into a transport museum. However the owners of the building have been criticised by a top architectural website for allowing it to fall into such disprepair.
The news about Broadstone comes a week after the opening of the new €10m railway station in Adamstown, west Dublin.

[Derek Wheeler]

Sorry. Im lost on this one.

Isn't the broadstone alignment reserved for a Luas extension to Liffey Junction under T21?

Navan? eh...right. So are IE now saying that they will put them into Broadstone?

I notice that Kenny's name is attributed to this, but is it in context to reality or distorted by a journo?

Meathontrack proposed this nearly 2 years ago. But it contradicts T21.

Capacity? Here we go again. Is this a "we don't think the interconnector will be built" failsafe? If so, how about the goddamn PPT?

Im still lost by it all.

[James Shields]

I'm wondering are IE trying to stake their turf on things they own that would go to the RPA under T21? Wander around Spencer Dock and you'll see IE have erected flower pots all over the other half of Mayor Street, with "Private Property of IE" signs. On the surface it's to stop people parking there, but you can almost visualise "Luas not wanted" below them...

[Mark Gleeson]

Well this is typical of what you would expect with an election coming

Last week we had the Cullen photo op in Waterford, the only possible logical explanation is Cullen made some phone calls and IE management where spineless and gave in, bare in mind if Cullen did make a call he was well outside his authority. IE management say there isn't much political interference but what is going on tells a different story

I have spoken at length a number of times with project people behind Navan/Pace and Docklands kept coming up, now of course I pointed out that Docklands wouldn't exist in 2015 .IE have never proposed opening Broadstone going back through all the reports and ideas it was never mentioned. CIE own the full deal and the RPA have claimed it for Luas to Liffey Junction

I get the feeling there a FF election hopeful pushing this

[Gary]

The architectural and historical significance of the building seems to be the main feature of the justification. The perfect reason to drop passengers in the middle of Constitution Hill, miles from the city centre.

[Colm Moore]

It would be useful if services tied in with DB / BE services, but I'd like to see more of that at Docklands anyway.The architectural and historical significance of the building seems to be the main feature of the justification. The perfect reason to drop passengers in the middle of Constitution Hill, miles from the city centre.

Its not that bad. Note 1-3 can be ignored for Broadstone, as there are steps down (that said, they have Docklands in the wrong place).

From: BROADSTONE, PHIBSBOROUGH, DUBLIN
To: Spire of Dublin
Distance: 1.472 km Time: 17minutes
1 Depart On BROADSTONE for 54(m)
2 Turn Sharp Left Onto CONSTITUTION HILL for 98(m)
3 Turn Right Onto WESTERN WAY for 60(m)
4 Turn Right Onto DOMINICK STREET UPPER for 328(m)
5 Continue Onto DOMINICK STREET LOWER for 323(m)
6 Turn Left Onto PARNELL STREET for 269(m)
7 Turn Sharp Right Onto OCONNELL STREET for 63(m)
8 Turn Left Onto CATHAL BRUGHA STREET for 29(m)
9 Turn Right Onto OCONNELL STREET for 248(m)
10 Arrive at Destination On OCONNELL STREET for 0(m)

From: Docklands Station
To: Spire of Dublin
Distance: 1.405 km Time: 16minutes
1 Depart On SHERIFF STREET UPPER for 0(m)
2 Continue Onto SHERIFF STREET UPPER for 0(m)
3 Continue Onto SHERIFF STREET LOWER for 659(m)
4 Turn Left Onto AMIENS STREET for 50(m)
5 Turn Right Onto TALBOT STREET for 561(m)
6 Continue Onto EARL STREET NORTH for 135(m)
7 Turn Sharp Left Onto OCONNELL STREET for 0(m)
8 Arrive at Destination On OCONNELL STREET for 0(m)

[Mark Gleeson]

But according to the DTO front gate of TCD is where we all want to go

[Mark]

I think you posted this before Victor? Interesting pic.

504

[Derek Wheeler]

According to an email received today by P11, CIE Chairman, John Lynch, has signalled CIE's intention, directly to Bertie Ahern,to reopen the Broadstone line.

The source is reliable.

So it looks like Barry Kenny's comments in the article are correct. But of course this contradicts T21. Its a turf war and a dangerous one. Personally, I favour the Luas proposal up that way.

[Mark]

Will this have any affect on the interconnector and PPT?

This is hilarious. 'Integrated ticketing' then Luas link up, then Docklands, then Mater and now this. Turf war.. oh its on..! ITS ON!!!

One thing I do know is that when the RPA where looking at Luas line D originally they were stuck on how to get to Finglas from Liffey Junction.

Perhaps, and this is just a guess, perhaps the RPA are now looking at alternative routes?? On- Street maybe?

Nonetheless maybe this turf war is the 'competition in the marketplace' our government talks about so regularly.

The race to Liffey Junction has begun.

About Luas Line D
Luas Line D is the proposed extension of the proposed Luas BX Line (Luas City Centre Link-Up) north of the City Centre to Grangegorman and the proposed Irish Rail Maynooth line at Liffey Junction Interchange.

Luas Line D is the proposed extension of the proposed Luas BX and RPA are currently conducting Public Consultation initiatives on various Route Options for Luas Line BX. Luas Line D is currently at the Preliminary Planning Stage. Public Consultation initiatives will commence as plans for Luas Line BX progress.

Luas Line D is part of the Government's Transport 21 investment programme.

[Brian Condron]

Wacky idea here, but is it possible to have both Luas and heavy rail share the alignment, with some sort of a cut and cover tunnel being provided for the Luas, with the heavy rail being reinstated on top? The presentation I went to last night showed that a two deck metro tunnel is being constructed in Madrid, I have seen plenty of two deck bridges around the world, seems like a straightforward method of construction to have a two deck alignment.

Other than that I really can't see how re-opening Broadstone as a heavy rail station would benefit the city, we need to become more integrated, not less. (However I'd still love to see it open for heritage sake, always thought Broadstone would be a great place for a national railway museum).

[shweeney]

just what the city needs - another rail terminus. Whatever about Docklands being isolated, at least its in a growing area of the city and is designed to be a stepping stone to the interconnector. Reopening broadstone as a standalone station is of no benefit for anyone.

[Colm Donoghue]

well except for future dit students living along the maynooth line.....

I still think the most telling CIE/RPA spat was the point luas extension getting the nod and the next week the planing notice for docklands going up. and no one in govt "saying hows about a luas stop at the nearest point to Docklands station til the interconnector is built."

broadstone's not a million iles from the busiest shopping district in Dublin Henry st, just down Dominic st to the ilac really but in this day and age non-interconnected transport solutions should not be countenanced unless you are going to pay your mates loads more afterwards to connect the lines suboptimally. ala green luas.

[Gobdaw]

Wasn't a proposal for a Finglas Luas from Parnell Sq via Western Way, old canal bed/lineal park, Cross Guns Bridge and Finglas Road onwards on the old P11 website?

That would give additional value to the proposed development of Mountjoy Jail rather than Liffey Junction, which already has the heavy rail for commuting.

Extending Luas from Liffey Junction to Finglas will require "cut'n'slash" through either Clarmont Estate or Glasnevin Industrial Estate to gain Finglas Road.

[Mark Gleeson]

That was for Ballymun or Airport not Finglas

[TomB]

Disclaimer: I live beside the Broadstone alignment

I really don't know what John Lynch is playing at here. The Broadstone-Liffey Junction alignment is the hidden jewel of transport in Dublin: it's completely segregated from traffic all the way and will be cheap to re-instate.

To use the alignment as a dumping ground for Navan passengers (with no onward connections) is a completely ridiculous idea. The only logical use for the alignment is as part of a north-south corridor. Originally we were supposed to have an underground connection between Ranelagh and Broadstone giving Dublin a high capacity public transport backbone. What T21 gave us was a compromise of two high capacity lines with an on-street bit in the middle. Not ideal, but hey, we'll take it.

Unless CIE plan on running a metro-style DART from Finglas to Tallaght they should keep their grubby hands off Broadstone. Let's not forget that we've four tracks between Glasnevin and Connolly/Docklands, so it's not as if Navan gives a legitimate excuse for taking over another two tracks.

Hopefully though Mr. Lynch will have done us all a favour and encouraged the RPA to stop dallying over line BX (to which there is no acceptable solution, and which inevitably some eggs will have to be broken over) and get on with the serious business of Line D to Liffey Junction. And not just because I'll benefit, because after so many mistakes over the years we have to have realised that dumping passengers outside the city centre with no onward connections is just a rather silly idea.

[CSL]

since RPA bought non-standard gauge trams , is there a possibility of sharing rails - e.g. inner rails for LUAS and outer rails for Heavy Rail ?

[sean]

No, you can't put heavy rail vehicles and trams on the same alignment oon safety grounds. Hint, what would happen if a stuffed Luas tram had a head-on collision with a locomotive, or a 4 car 29k? It doesn't bear thinking about.

I really don't see why this is needed at all - if the line to Navan is ever built it won't be sending that many trains, the ones they will use could easily be handled by Connolly if IE made their trains make the most efficient entries to/exists from Connolly station.

[Mark Gleeson]

This is looking more and more like a stunt of some kind. Remember Dr Lynch who is named in the letter works for CIE not Irish Rail, and IE people have not mentioned Broadstone when asked about a Navan terminus

The date quoted in letter we have seen is 2010 for Broadstone to open. Now this isn't going to happen since you would likely need a works order to reopen the line

Docklands station, one platform has seen a grand total of 1 train since opening and that wasn't even in service. 2 platforms more than able to take 6 to 8 trains an hour, only 4 are expected from Pace leaving at least 2 slots free that more or less covers Navan

Post interconnector Navan and Longford would terminate either P6 Connolly or the centre platform in Grand Canal Dock or continue to Arklow/Gorey there is no shortage of track or platforms either now or in the future, we are however seriously short of rolling stock

[Gary]

Is there not a shortage or potential shortage of rails on the northern route from Connolly to Howth Junction esp with possible Dart to Balbrigan and new station at Donahmeade? There was talk before of widening that to 4 lines from 2.

[Mark Gleeson]

Is there not a shortage or potential shortage of rails on the northern route from Connolly to Howth Junction esp with possible Dart to Balbrigan and new station at Donahmeade? There was talk before of widening that to 4 lines from 2.

But they won't be going through Connolly anymore

[Gary]

Ah you're just talking about City Centre?

Was figuring would still be a need to have at least one extra line north of Clontarf Rd to increase flow of trains from Belfast, Dundalk, Balbrigan, Howth at peak times.

[James Shields]

Broadstone may be beautiful architecturally, but that doesn't matter to a commuter who's been stranded there and needs to get to work on the other side of town. This sort of thing may have been just about acceptable when the "city centre" stretched from O'Connell St to Stephen's Green, but it now takes in the IFSC, Grand Canal Dock, the Digital Hub, and quite a few other places that slip my mind.

We need to get away from the "terminates in An Lar" mode of thinking to one where multiple high frequency routes criss-cross, making it easy to hop form one to another to get where we need to be, easily, quickly and cheaply.

Adding new termini to the city centre is not going to achieve this, nor is erecting barriers to routes that have already been published in T21. Someone needs to make ti very clear to everyone involved that this sort of messing will not be tolerated, as the mere suggestion could put back Luas to Finglas by years.

[ThomasJ]

I think mark is right about a possible political involvement. I think bertie has been told in other words. We are in crisis . Our trains are crammed and we have no space. We have to use what limited resources we have to resolve this and unless you know of another way (fast track the inter connector.) we have no choice but to use broadstone. Is broadstone in bertie constituency? Bear in mind bertie was contacted not martin cullen. Broadstone is going through a major regeneration project and will look wonderful when finished with d i t etc. I think broadstone is being used as a bargaining tool at the moment in this election year

[Mark Gleeson]

Think you got it, it is in Berties patch

Fact is Broadstone won't make any difference, facts

Best case the Maynooth line can push 12 trains an hour currently its limited to 8 until its resignalled. Connolly can take 5 of them in some way possibly 6, that leaves 6-7 and with 2 platforms Docklands can take them fairly easily.

QED Broadstone will not provide any additional capacity

FACT 12 8 coach trains is 96 coaches current allocation is about 50, so 46 more coaches needed at least

[ThomasJ]

The answer to this is probably no but Is there anyway for Iarnrod eireann to run trains from broadstone to pearse-bray etc. could the track be amended for them to be able to do so.

I personally think that this is the gem of the Broadstone line amongst all the major development in the phibsboro/grangegorman/broadstone area and I think may have an impact on the final outcome.


http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=404&docID=3054

[Mark Gleeson]

The answer to this is probably no but Is there anyway for Iarnrod eireann to run trains from broadstone to pearse-bray etc. could the track be amended for them to be able to do so. Unless you have about 3 billion for a tunnel to Sandymount nope

http://www.platform11.org/images/maps/dub_map.jpg

[ThomasJ]

Then it is really pointless. students can use this to get into town unless they go to Broombridge and change platforms and get a train back into town.

The only passengers that are going to use this is students from Maynooth/longford/pace/navan. People are going to interchange and use maynooth trains citybound not helping things?

Having said that can you image the options for students on the maynooth line if it was being planned.

Access to:
NUI Maynoooth
DCU
Trinity
DIT
As well as interchange for UCD (Dart)

Still not convinced though!!

[Gary]

On that Map at Glasnevin Junction its looks like there is an old line that could be used to bring the Phoneix Park line onto the midland line? If so could that be reopened in the short term to allow Kildare direct access to Docklands?

[Mark Gleeson]

On that Map at Glasnevin Junction its looks like there is an old line that could be used to bring the Phoneix Park line onto the midland line? If so could that be reopened in the short term to allow Kildare direct access to Docklands?

Its possible but expensive and offers little really in return. The entire plan was that trains Maynooth Docklands would run in parallel with Kildare Docklands thus using idle capacity without the need to change Glasnevin otherwise its a nightmare with trains crossing all over the place

http://www.platform11.org/images/crosstown.png

[Gary]

Ok thanks Mark.

So long and short of it until the interconnector/ spencer dock is built Kildare is going stay at Heuston?

Fear I have with the T21 plan is if economy slows down and takings at the revenue box office are down the whole plan could get put on ice and we're left with docklands being underutilised.

[Mark]

In Metro North V Interconnector, the IE tunnel is the weakest link.

[Derek Wheeler]

Fear I have with the T21 plan is if economy slows down and takings at the revenue box office are down the whole plan could get put on ice and we're left with docklands being underutilised.

Exactly Gary. Sensible use of the money would have ensured that Docklands was connected to both the Maynooth and Kildare line. The reasons given by IE are varied, but the one that keeps surfacing is connecting both lines would have affected the building of the Interconnector due to a revised location for the current Docklands station. Now considering the site was brownfield, anything was possible.

I often fear that the interconnector was placed so far down the list of priorities that any down turn in economic conditions will see it shelved. Same goes for Navan. But I digress. Having the Kildare line running to Docklands would relieve the pressure on Heuston and the Luas red line to Connolly. Us
ing the Phoenix park tunnel is a valid, credible and worthwhile short term solution. It also opens up the Cabra/Blackhorse ave areas. Don't be surprised if theres a bid rush to do it in 2012, when everyone realises the interconnector isnt happening. By then, it will already be to late. If we keep adding stations and four tracking the Kildare line, only the interconnector will aid keeping pace.

[Mark]

There are many cheaper alternatives to building the Interconnector like Derek mentioned but nothing will give the DART the scale of city centre penetration that the underground stations in St. Stephen's Green and Christchurch/Liberties etc. will give it.

It is an enormous and expensive project but no matter what other stations are opened (Docklands, Broadstone, Mater etc.) and no matter what lines are reopened (Midland, Phoenix Park etc.) it will always be the only long term solution to integration of the rail lines in Dublin.

[Gary]

Exactly Gary. Sensible use of the money would have ensured that Docklands was connected to both the Maynooth and Kildare line. The reasons given by IE are varied, but the one that keeps surfacing is connecting both lines would have affected the building of the Interconnector due to a revised location for the current Docklands station. Now considering the site was brownfield, anything was possible.

I often fear that the interconnector was placed so far down the list of priorities that any down turn in economic conditions will see it shelved. Same goes for Navan. But I digress. Having the Kildare line running to Docklands would relieve the pressure on Heuston and the Luas red line to Connolly. Us
ing the Phoenix park tunnel is a valid, credible and worthwhile short term solution. It also opens up the Cabra/Blackhorse ave areas. Don't be surprised if theres a bid rush to do it in 2012, when everyone realises the interconnector isnt happening. By then, it will already be to late. If we keep adding stations and four tracking the Kildare line, only the interconnector will aid keeping pace.

But again Derek the only way would be to rebuild the track at Glasnevin Juntion to allow a straight run from Heuston to the Midland Line to Docklands? The other option being a zig zag approach on existing junctions using two drivers, might work on the Riobamba line in Ecuador but dont' think the irish commutter would be too pleased!

Yea I agree with constructions responsible for 25% of the revenue takings it doesn't take Carol Voderman to work out the numbers mightn't stack if its long fingered.

[Derek Wheeler]

But again Derek the only way would be to rebuild the track at Glasnevin Juntion to allow a straight run from Heuston to the Midland Line to Docklands? The other option being a zig zag approach on existing junctions using two drivers, might work on the Riobamba line in Ecuador but dont' think the irish commutter would be too pleased!


Rebuilding the track at Glasnevin junction looks like a non-runer. An IE manager did say to a P11 member early last year, that changing the junction cost money that the Government didn't want to part with. That said, IE managers are about as trustworthy as the artful dodger. Subsequently, it appears that putting in a scissors crossing at Glasnevin junction (which would enable connecting the PPT line to the Midland line) would cause a possible conflict of movements. I don't accept this personally. With modern signalling systems it shouldn't be a problem. Others here will explain it better. Im just a believer in solutions not obstacles to solutions.

[Mark Gleeson]

The simplest, cheapest and best solution is to buy a small chunk of a unused industrial plot at the back of Ossery Rd and join the Druncondra line to Docklands station, solves the whole problem also means Kildare trains can stop in Drumcondra which is very useful for the north city

Glasnevin Junction is way too messy costs would be more than that of Docklands station and it would be a mess to operate with trains continuously crossing against each other which in turn means fewer trains can travel through the junction, the radical solution of course is to dump everyone from Maynooth in Docklands and run Kildare Connolly, won't go down well and is the inverse of the interconnector plan

Signalling technology has advanced dramatically but the basic rules stay the same

[CSL]

Mark, what was the previous solution, how did [ now gone "Spencer Dock" ] North Wall freight depot trains get to the tunnel ?

[Mark]

Originally the temp station was to be east of where it currently stands and that site would have been accessed by both the midland and Drumcondra lines.