Radio 1 14:15-14:30 12-4-2007

[al2637]

Radio 1, Liveline, unhappy customer complaining about routings on website not compatible with fares quoted.... very interesting, Mr Kenny is getting a grilling!

[Mark Gleeson]

Story goes guy from Sallins trying to get to Thurles been threatened with gardai and been forced to pay over the odds to get to Thurles since he has to go via Heuston

Sallins - Heuston - Thurles is a valid journey and costs zero more than Sallins Thurles direct

Derek popped up and had Kenny cornered as the booking system allows this and we have done it. We are always there standing by

[Mark Gleeson]

Suppose its time to explain what we tried

1. Word comes through of a passenger getting a hard time with a IE official
2. IE manager claims the journey is illegal
3. I book said journey at the correct price, try it out tickets checked all good
4. We ask said manager to pick a day and we would send someone out to replicate journey (IE not knowing of the trial run) and have us intercepted and charged with fare evasion

Needless to say IE haven't taken up the offer to arrest one of us, since well we are correct according to the T&C's

[al2637]

Yea, well done Derek, Mr Kenny really had no where to go.

The system seems to be a mess. I always thought you could get to your destination via any reasonable routing. The online timetable printing it as an option in my mind renders it reasonable!

It made me laugh when Barry tried to explain that computers were logical, and would print the shortest journey option.. then in typical IE style he continued to promise to resolve this.. :D

[Mark Gleeson]

System is not a mess, its a lack of training of staff

If the journey planner offers the journey it is the fastest journey at the selected time, it also forms a notice issued by Irish Rail that the journey is permissible. It's not a bug at IE's end try www.bahn.ie it does the same. If you book a double back trip you will be charged the normal fare.

This is not a broken thing on the website, its perfectly correct. The website has other weirdness to do with day returns and A->B not the same as B->A.

[Derek Wheeler]

The one thing I would've liked to have added today (and I'll do it now) is that IE management should immediately inform all relevent staff that these journeys are permissable. Resolution can be brought about very quickly through a simple internal memo. If IE staff are reading can you please do this now and save yourselves and your customers more embarrasment. Its gone beyond an anomally now.

[al2637]

Sorry Mark, should have been clearer, when I said "system", i meant the rail system as a whole, not the computer system.

I agree, the journey planner is correct, and backtracking should be allowed for the same price as a direct fare. This is pretty standard in the air industry (not LCCs), the fare is form point A to point B, usually with tons of valid routings.

[Mark Gleeson]

Listen to it until the end of today
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/index.html click listen back livelive

Move to about 31 minutes in

[Mark Gleeson]

Ok mp3 version of the section here http://www.platform11.org/resources/audio/12042007-LiveLine_Ticketing_Issue.mp3

Towards the end Barry tries to protect a IE manager who is alleged has not replied to the passenger

The manager named is Liam Kenny who is as far as we know is the/a manager/senior person in Customer Relations, Southern and Western and as such is exactly the right person the letter should have gone too.

[sponge]

I regularly travel from Cork to Athlone and often journey planner suggests a change in Heuston. This is also the most comfortable option and my preferred (in comparision to being a tourist in Portarlington for an hour).

I remember the last time I boarded in Cork the checker looked at my ticket and went "change in emmm..." I just said "Heuston, it's change in Heuston" and went through unchallenged. And when I changed in Heuston, the ticket checker looked twice at the ticket, I said I had to change here, and he let me though no quibbles.

This journey differs from the callers in that it is all intercity rather than commuter/intercity but that shouldn't matter. Maybe I just had better informed (or couldn't care less!!) ticket checkers. The ticket was an internet one as it happened and I had the itinerary to defend myself should they have tried to accuse me of "pulling a stunt".

Kennys arguments were pathetic. I agree with Derek Davis. If an IE conductor tried that with me I would let them call the police and raise a case against me. See them in the high court :D

Going forward, I would agree with Mark that the system is not broken at all. Also, "fixing it" would probably cost more than the amount of money lost from the tiny few who would even know to exploit it.

[clonsilladart]

Ok mp3 version of the section here http://www.platform11.org/resources/audio/12042007-LiveLine_Ticketing_Issue.mp3


Thanks for putting that up Mark!!! I never liked Derek Davis before I listened to that.... Fair Play to him!!

Maybe Mr. Kenny should have been pushed a bit to explain how he's going to "Resolve the Anomaly".
It should not have a negative impact on the customer (Removing the routing from the system or increasing the price for the routing).

Of course the way it should be done is to train the bloody staff, and print "via Heuston" on the ticket (i'm assuming that's not already done - I've never used one of those routings).

[Mark Gleeson]

Of course the way it should be done is to train the bloody staff, and print "via Heuston" on the ticket (i'm assuming that's not already done - I've never used one of those routings).

Well the IE ticketing machines physically can't do a via routing. So to do Sallins Thurles the ticket machine needs
1. Ticket type
2. Start point defaults to local station, 079 for Sallins
3. Destination, Thurles being 013

They certainly can do this through the online booking system but on open returns and singles it won't be practical and the problem isn't the online system since it produces an itinerary and reserved seats which makes it pretty tricky to stop you, legally if they stopped me I would see them in court.

Going forward, I would agree with Mark that the system is not broken at all. Also, "fixing it" would probably cost more than the amount of money lost from the tiny few who would even know to exploit it.

Derek, Thomas and myself have spent a lot of time thinking about this situation. Indeed we have been told different things by the same manager depending on where we are. The system, the T&C's per say permits these journeys. We had a look and found a specific reference to tickets being valid by the direct route or by any route which Iarnrod Eireann give notice of. The system favours the passenger by maximising the journey possibilties and permitting them to make these slightly strange journeys. It wouldn't be in the passenger interests to change the rules

The problem is the staff on the ground. So the advice is if you are doing such a trip.

Print the page out with the full details, thats the one you get when you click the little i thing in the journey planner.

If you can select to book seats and click the check price button, print the page out, this now proves the journey is bookable at the standard fare

If you are stopped, produce said paper and argue that Iarnrod Eireann have given notice that the journey is valid and thus the trip is valid according to the IE terms and conditions of carriage. Doubtful you will meet a member of staff who has a copy. Note also under the rules you are supposed to only use one ticket for your entire journey so a single Sallins Heuston then Heuston Thurles is actually in breech of the rules!

We have been here before http://forum.platform11.org/showthread.php?t=1932&highlight=wrong

[Thomas J Stamp]

Can i just say well done to Derek on twatting down (yet again) Mt Kenny and his ilk.

I have said to the fine and well Mr D that from the AGM onwards I will be willing to share the airwaves time with him if Derek wants to have a glamarous assistant a la Debbie MGee

[Derek Wheeler]

You're no Debbie Magee! But yes, you will be gracing the airwaves this summer.:D

[James Shields]

Brilliant interview. The unfortunate thing is that Barry Kenny seemed intent on describing this as "an anomaly", and "to be fixed" (which would seem to entail removing such routes from the journey planner). This would seem a pity, as it would severely reduce the travel options for (an admittedly small number of) passengers.

While it's true that these routings could be exploited by (an even smaller number of) fare evaders out to get cheaper fares than they are entitled to, it seems absurd to penalise all rail users because there is a potential exploit.

And why can't we have a rule like in the UK, where you can buy two tickets to cover your total journey if it's cheaper than one, providing the train actually stops at the intermediate station?

[Derek Wheeler]

[QUOTE=lostcarpark;20307]Brilliant interview. The unfortunate thing is that Barry Kenny seemed intent on describing this as "an anomaly", and "to be fixed" (which would seem to entail removing such routes from the journey planner). This would seem a pity, as it would severely reduce the travel options for (an admittedly small number of) passengers.[QUOTE]

I doubt IE will remove these journies from the planner. To do so, would be a drastic reduction in services. Removing them is not the way to fix the "anomally". The way to fix it, is to inform staff that the timetable is now in the 21st century and not just stuck on a page in your grubby little booklet stashed in your pocket. Remember that some of these "go forward/back to get back/forward" journies are literally the only way for many travellers.

We are now at a point where IE either admit that the online timetable is wrong or their staff need a memo from management. The latter is probably the best solution. Staff are just at the mercy of poor management.

It starts at the top.

[losexpectation]

do you have copy of that interview

the liveline archive only goes back a week while everything else goes back much further

[Mark Gleeson]

http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=20092&postcount=9