contested fine to no avail.....

[andyl222]

As you can read from my previous thread I had the misfortune of being fined 50 euro by Irish Rail. I contested the fine and emailed ( registered post would have been better but time restrictions were an issue) John Byrne. The following is my email and then his response.




To whom it may concern,

I'm writing you this email to contest a fine I received on Tuesday 20th of this month. The circumstances which subsequently led to my fine are as follows:

On Tuesday 20th of March I intended to catch the 12.50 service to Connolly Station from Coolmine train station. I commute from this particular station on a daily basis and as such know that to walk from my house to Coolmine train station takes no more than 13 minutes. I was perhaps 150 metres from the level crossing when i noticed the barrier was down, signifying a train was coming into the station. It was 12.39 and i assumed it must have been a Maynooth bound train as can sometimes be the case. As i reached the level crossing (on the Dublin bound side of the tracks) the train arrived from the Maynooth direction en route to Dublin. It was 8 minutes early and at first i thought it may have been a Maynooth - Connolly direct, but alas it was in fact the train I intended to catch. As you may well know, Coolmine Station's platform layout is not conducive to quick access to the ticket office at any time,but in the case of the early arrival of a train it is downright inconvenient. I had an important meeting with a lecturer which I could not postpone, so I boarded the train assuming I could just pay when I reached Connolly as has been common practice since I started using the commuter train route nigh on 5 years ago. As you know, there is a new booth in Connolly station, parallel to Platform 4, which to all intents and purposes is signposted and manned like a ticket booth. In the very recent past I'd been witness to many people purchasing tickets at said booth on arrival at Connolly station from numerous departure points,and as such was under the impression I could do the same. I walked to the booth and addressed the attendant, asking to buy a return ticket to Maynooth (to clarify, I live with my girlfriend in Clonsilla during the week and have a family home in Maynooth.)
The attendent then asked for my point of departure to which I responded Coolmine, I explained in a somewhat jocular manner the early arrival of the train etc. I was asked for an I.D, which I duly handed over assuming it was to show I was a student. The attendent then took details from my I.D, asked for my address and only then informed me I was being fined 50 Euro for boarding a train without a ticket.

As far as I know, a commuter train arriving early into any station, even by a few minutes can be seen to have broken or infringed on the following

1. Conditions of Carriage
2. The Customer Charter
3.Memorandum of Agreement with the DOT.

Not having a ticket is in breech of SI 109 1984 and under the Victorian railway regulation act is an offence. I also understand in full SI 576 2006 with relation to fare evasion, but I'm sure it is clear to you that in this particular case I was not in any guise attempting to evade paying my fare. I had not attempted to exit my destination ( Connolly station) without buying a ticket, I had not even passed the new 'ticket' booth, I had every intention of buying a ticket.

I understand that Joan Burton TD has already been made aware of the inconsistencies in services and customer satisfaction in reference to Coolmine Station and I will in turn be sending her a copy of this email.

There are several other matters I would like to discuss in terms of my misconception of the ticketing system of Irish Rail, misconceptions which seem rife amongst the general populus and result in penalties and fines for diligent customers such as myself. Up until very recently it was common practice to pay for your journey at the destination if for whatever reason you could not purchase a ticket at your point of departure. This seemed such common practice in fact, that as I approached the 'ticket booth' on Platform 4 in Connolly Station i was oblivious to the fact that I was in a position to be penalised, as were the 6 people behind me in the queue. It seems to the public that Irish rail are 'moving the goalposts so to speak' and are now cashing in on a public misconception.

The wording of signs about fare evasion are no more clear 'Buy a Ticket, Or Pay the Price' seems like either a simple threat or an option. The booth in Connolly Station to which I've referred to throughout this email has a sign above it stating ' No Ticket? Queue here', which would imply that tickets could be bought there, a fair assumption I'm sure you'll agree.

In closing I expect this fine to be quashed. If this does not occur I will be making a complaint to the Direct of Consumer Affairs and the Minister of Transport. I will also be extensively highlighting the matter in the media. I want a written response to this email immediately. I have been greatly distressed by the aforementioned events and feel that without quick resolution I will have no other choice than to consider my legal options.

Andrew *****







His response was as follows.

Good Morning Mr *****



I’ve read you r email in regard to you boarding the service at Coolmine on the 20th March, Firstly advertisements onboard rolling stock and at stations in tandem with onboard inspections and entry and exit checks have been ongoing for a number of years at Coolmine station. It is never acceptable to board an Iarnrod Eireann service without a valid ticket when a ticket selling facility is made available as was the case in Coolmine that morning. The ticket selling facility was available at the other side of the platform which only takes a matter of minutes to traverse. I stress again that you mention it was common practice to pay at the other end of a journey ,this was only afforded to passengers that travelled from a station without a ticket selling facility or a station was unmanned or had malfunctioning equipment . Any passenger who arrived at a station or travelled onboard without a ticket and was inspected by one of my officers has been fined and this practice has been ongoing for the last number of years .Persons who have not paid have been prosecuted through the courts over the same time frame and the excuse of not knowing has not been accepted by myself or for that matter the judges presiding over prosecutions. Prosecutions have taken under the auspicious of the Railway safety act 2005 and I attach the relevant sections below. In regard to the comments made regarding my officers in Connolly the booth has had a large poster in red reading No Ticket, No Travel, No excuse attached to it for some time. Other posters and passenger information has been made available to passengers for some time prior to the introduction of the exit validation gates in our main stations in the city centre. So I don’t accept the assumption that you could reasonable buy a ticket at the booth. In closing the fine stands and is required to be paid within the 21 day period or it will be sent for prosecution.


Sorry for the very long post, but I'd like some suggestions as to how I should respond. He has not addressed the issue of the early train which to me seems incredible as it is the central point of my argument. He seems more upset that I dare question the IE signage and their interpretation. I'm just astonished that this is the sole individual to which we as consumers can voice our concerns regarding complaints/ fcontesting fines. Ridiculous.

[losexpectation]

well your case ain't that great, I think its a harsh lesson for anyone who always paid at the destination when needed to fully see this is no longer true with a 50e fine. but you say it based on the fact that the train was early, you mentioned this once but didn't come back to it really at the end, how often are the trains from there, I guess early trains can be as annoying as late ones.

Is there some sort of refund for trains not on time, follow that up and perhaps this could go towards your fine.

did the 6 people behind you get fined aswell?


I thnk people get annoyed when they see no difference between fare evasion and fare neglect.

' No Ticket? Queue here' what is that booth here, shouldn't it have sign saying queue here to be fined?

as ever its the inconsistancy, didn't that guy who said he didn't see sign saying the ticket office on the other side was open get his fine recinded over on boards.ie this seems like not too disimilar case although he knew the ticket office was open (although intended to pay for it at the destination) the spiteful rules are rules types would suggest he shouldn't get let off either...

[Mark Gleeson]

This is what I expected

As I posted at the outset file a complaint with the Northern and Eastern Office in Connolly about the early train, 01 703 2613

If you get them to admit the train was early in writing

Its too late now to play the data protection trick of requesting your image boarding the train in question, that would have a timestamp

Paying up is the safest option

[Colm Donoghue]

As you can read from my previous thread I had the misfortune of being fined 50 euro by Irish Rail. I contested the fine and emailed ( registered post would have been better but time restrictions were an issue) John Byrne. The following is my email and then his response.






His response was as follows.

Good Morning Mr *****



I’ve read you r email in regard to you boarding the service at Coolmine on the 20th March, Firstly advertisements onboard rolling stock and at stations in tandem with onboard inspections and entry and exit checks have been ongoing for a number of years at Coolmine station. It is never acceptable to board an Iarnrod Eireann service without a valid ticket when a ticket selling facility is made available as was the case in Coolmine that morning. The ticket selling facility was available at the other side of the platform which only takes a matter of minutes to traverse.
If one saw an advertisement onboard a train not to travel without a ticket, how would you get off to get one?
Is there always a method of crossing the tracks to the ticket office when the level crossing is closed, lift/ramped access at Coolmine? If there was no access for persons with impaired mobility, how could you have bought a ticket, if your mibility was impaired? Irish Rail's definition of people with impaired mobility is broader you might think.





I stress again that you mention it was common practice to pay at the other end of a journey ,this was only afforded to passengers that travelled from a station without a ticket selling facility or a station was unmanned or had malfunctioning equipment .
I have been directed onto trains without a ticket at Arklow every week during the summer of 1997 and on at least one occasion last year 2006, by a staff member of Irish rail working in the signal cabin. This station was not unamanned, yet a staff member afforded me the opportunity to pay on the train.


In regard to the comments made regarding my officers in Connolly the booth has had a large poster in red reading No Ticket, No Travel, No excuse attached to it for some time. Other posters and passenger information has been made available to passengers for some time prior to the introduction of the exit validation gates in our main stations in the city centre. So I don’t accept the assumption that you could reasonable buy a ticket at the booth. In closing the fine stands and is required to be paid within the 21 day period or it will be sent for prosecution.

How does "No Ticket, No Travel, No excuse" apply to passengers getting on at stations where you can't buy a ticket?
How does Irish rail putting up posters which are regularly incorrect in so many respects along with incorrect information affect their truthfullness in this case?
Also if you got on at an unstaffed station, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume the ticket area was for buying a ticket to get out at Connolly.

In the end though, Andy, you need to find out if this is a strict liability law or if Irish rail need to show "mens rea" If you go to Court and spend less than 50 euros on legal advice you'll lose. if you spend enough, you'ld probably be aquitted but I dunno if you'ld call that winning.


Lastly, are the spelling and grammer mistakes a pasting error on this board or John Byrnes?

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail are going to find themselves in trouble for that poster.....

You are legally permitted to board if:
1. Station is unstaffed
2. Station normally staffed but booking office closed, or notice to that effect
3. A member of staff tells you to do so

If that occurs you must pay the ticket checker on train if available failing that at destination

Open question is what happens if IE refuse to sell you a ticket are they then breaking the law by forcing you to commit an offence?

[andyl222]

If one saw an advertisement onboard a train not to travel without a ticket, how would you get off to get one?
Is there always a method of crossing the tracks to the ticket office when the level crossing is closed, lift/ramped access at Coolmine? If there was no access for persons with impaired mobility, how could you have bought a ticket, if your mibility was impaired? Irish Rail's definition of people with impaired mobility is broader you might think.





I have been directed onto trains without a ticket at Arklow every week during the summer of 1997 and on at least one occasion last year 2006, by a staff member of Irish rail working in the signal cabin. This station was not unamanned, yet a staff member afforded me the opportunity to pay on the train.


How does "No Ticket, No Travel, No excuse" apply to passengers getting on at stations where you can't buy a ticket?
How does Irish rail putting up posters which are regularly incorrect in so many respects along with incorrect information affect their truthfullness in this case?
Also if you got on at an unstaffed station, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume the ticket area was for buying a ticket to get out at Connolly.

In the end though, Andy, you need to find out if this is a strict liability law or if Irish rail need to show "mens rea" If you go to Court and spend less than 50 euros on legal advice you'll lose. if you spend enough, you'ld probably be aquitted but I dunno if you'ld call that winning.


Lastly, are the spelling and grammer mistakes a pasting error on this board or John Byrnes?


They're 100% thye work of Mr. Byrnes. To be honest I was a little dismayed that this was the response I would get from a business man in such a position that a grasp of the english language would seem something of a prerequisite considering the volume of correspondences he must deal with.

[andyl222]

My response to his email.....

Dear Mr. Byrne,

Thank you for your prompt response to my email. I note that you did not make reference to the fact that the train in question was early. As the early arrival of the train was the sole cause of this particular incident I find your lack of reference to it surprising. I reiterate that I boarded the train with every intention of paying my fare at my destination. My unsuccessful attempt at buying a ticket is evidence of my intention. In your email you indicated that you have no discretionary authority to rescind fines for rail travellers who use the service without a ticket under the mistaken impression that they can pay at their destination. The following excerpt from one of your own emails would suggest otherwise.

Good afternoon Neil

Thank you for your mail regarding the circumstances you have outlined while travelling from Coolmine station. Firstly I will address the points you have raised

There is no change in Iarnrod Eireann ticketing policy all passengers must have a ticket prior to boarding any service when a facility is available. This has been the policy of the railway since the 1889 railway act.
To re-enforce this policy numerous amounts of signage is dotted around the network and the rolling stock. The newest poster No Ticket, No Travel, No Excuse is located on all rolling stock transiting that station and at main stations such as Connolly.

This is also accompanied by an information booklet of the same name available at stations (see attachment). In regard to Coolmine the platform on the way to Dublin has a container which houses a temporary booking office that operates at peak times in the morning. Directly across from that is the booking office that contains an automatic vending machine and ticket sales from two windows access to the ticket office is over the passenger footbridge.

The station is manned until 2130 every evening. With regard to staff informing you that you could pay at the other end this practice is only permitted if one the TVM is out of operation or two there is a power cut and we cant sell you a ticket . Passengers using the service are asked to allow themselves plenty of time to buy a ticket rather then risk committing the offence of evasion albeit un-deliberately.

In your case the standard fine is €80-100 for individuals caught attempting or accidentally evading on our services , However as I will have to charge you something the minimum I can charge is €25 giving you 21 days to pay . Please fine attached the leaflet mentioned.

You sent this email in response to a similar situation in October 2006. Clearly you accepted that 'not knowing' was an excuse in this case.

I don't intend to enter into any further communication with you on this matter. If you wish to take this further I will see you in court.

Yours sincerely,

Andrew Lynch

[Mark Gleeson]

:cool:

Next thing is they will tell you the train wasn't early and can't be early. I know the signalling computer doesn't care about time, it worries about order, in the case of the Maynooth line it is possible to depart early, where as from Howth or Bray would require a manual override since there is a level crossing. So that pre-empts the next excuse from IE

The case is still weak but IE are starting to dig a hole

[andyl222]

:cool:

Next thing is they will tell you the train wasn't early and can't be early. I know the signalling computer doesn't care about time, it worries about order, in the case of the Maynooth line it is possible to depart early, where as from Howth or Bray would require a manual override since there is a level crossing. So that pre-empts the next excuse from IE

The case is still weak but IE are starting to dig a hole

here was his response, note he does not address the train being early AGAIN.....

Mr *****



Thank you for your email. Firstly I take it that your sought permission from Neil for the attached communication that was sent in a private capacity to Mr. Brady? I certainly do not discuss individual cases with third parties. And if you did seek permission and it was granted ask him was the fine paid? Secondly if you wish to argue this point further then the proper forum is the courts which I will oblige you if the payment of the fine is not received. Also please note that unauthorised public disclosure of ongoing cases or investigations is a prosecutable offence.





Regards



John Byrne

[markpb]

the proper forum is the courts which I will oblige you if the payment of the fine is not received

He's close there. The proper forum for dealing with people as rude and uncopoperative as him is (unfortunately) through politicians. Go talk to yours.

[andyl222]

He's close there. The proper forum for dealing with people as rude and uncopoperative as him is (unfortunately) through politicians. Go talk to yours.
my response read:

Dear Mr. Byrne,
I can assure you that I'm not privvy to any private information in regard to Mr. Brady or his case. He has chosen to put his communication with you in the public domain by posting on www.boards.ie. With regard to the unauthorised disclosure of ongoing prosecutions, surely that is down to Mr. Brady and not myself. I have no intention of discussing Mr. Brady's case any further, I was simply trying to highlight an inconsistency in your attitude re. 'not knowing is never an excuse'.
Once again I find myself surprised that you have chosen to ignore the main focus of my email to the effect that the train was early and that you in fact granted Mr. Brady a reduction in fine. An organization such as Iarnrod Eireann works on consistency and as such I find your drastic differences in attitude to 2 very similar cases somewhat puzzling.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are no outstanding legal proceedings against you. Its only if the fine is not struck out and goes unpaid do legal proceeding begin when a summons is issued. Also the case you quoted has to our knowledge been settled, it is public domain so its its publisher they would be after not you

See they are turning nasty

Time to get nasty, state you are unwilling to pay until such time IE admit they where wrong to allow the train to operate early.

BTW I have to power to block IE from reading threads if needs be

[andyl222]

There are no outstanding legal proceedings against you. Its only if the fine is not struck out and goes unpaid do legal proceeding begin when a summons is issued

See they are turning nasty

Time to get nasty, unwilling to pay until such time IE admit they where wrong to allow the train to operate early

I'm in the process of sending my local councillor an email.... I'll keep you updated.

[andyl222]

There are no outstanding legal proceedings against you. Its only if the fine is not struck out and goes unpaid do legal proceeding begin when a summons is issued. Also the case you quoted has to our knowledge been settled, it is public domain so its its publisher they would be after not you

See they are turning nasty

Time to get nasty, state you are unwilling to pay until such time IE admit they where wrong to allow the train to operate early.

BTW I have to power to block IE from reading threads if needs be
That would probably be wise if this issue gets any more volatile. I'm just baffled as to how someone can act as Mr. Byrne has. It would seem that the circumstances of my fine are a secondary concern to him, just behind him trying to intimidate me....

[andyl222]

I've sent an email to my local Councillor John McGinley. I attached all correspondences from Mr. Byrne and myself and asked for mr. Mc Ginley's advice.

[Rushed2nowhere]

Does Coolmine have CCTV? If it does it could potentially be used as evidence to:
a.) Prove that the train left early
b.) That you were standing on the patform at 12.39/12.40

Similary if there is CCTV at Connolly it could be used to prove that after getting off the train you went directly to the desk to purchase a ticket and that you didn't try leaving Connolly without paying for your journey (fare evasion).

Even though I.E. have the law on their sides, in court the judge might let you off due to I.E.'s mistakes.

Another thing is if you could prove that this train was 10 minutes early it would put I.E. in a very embarassing situation and they might drop the charges.

[andyl222]

Does Coolmine have CCTV? If it does it could potentially be used as evidence to:
a.) Prove that the train left early
b.) That you were standing on the patform at 12.39/12.40

Similary if there is CCTV at Connolly it could be used to prove that after getting off the train you went directly to the desk to purchase a ticket and that you didn't try leaving Connolly without paying for your journey (fare evasion).

Even though I.E. have the law on their sides, in court the judge might let you off due to I.E.'s mistakes.

Another thing is if you could prove that this train was 10 minutes early it would put I.E. in a very embarassing situation and they might drop the charges.


Thats a good idea, I don't know how long they keep their footage for before formatting the tapes/disks, but if it was available it would be a key piece of evidence for me. Anyone have any idea how long they keep cctv footage for at IE????

[Mark Gleeson]

The on train one, no chance, the level crossing one should be in the region of 28 days and it is recorded

If they are following the best practice http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm

It depends on the camera positioning they are normally just there to watch the crossing with no attention to the traffic really, only Merrion Gates has extra cameras to catch people, it won't work in Coolmine

For the record you could also ask for the train register entry for train P638 on March 20th, legally IE have to keep that. The register should log the trains times against signals

[Thomas J Stamp]

If there are no incidents I'd be surpriseed if it isnt taped over within two days.

Your greatest difficulty is proving this train was early. Remember, all IE have to do is prove the TVM was working that day, hey presto you're gone.

Even if it was early... Maynooth line.... its hardly as if the next train was at 18.00 was it?

This depends on which Judge you get. Dont be intimidated by Mr Byrnes. You may get a fine or you may get lucky, dont forget District Court Judges get the train too, and suffer the various problems associated with them, god knows they may also have been in a similar situation. This is a point Mr Byrnes should consider when he reads this thread as well as the fact that you're not the usual sort of fare-doging character we find in the District Court.

At this moment i would like to say hello to Rita and Hugh, two of my colleages in the CIE Solicitors Department. Hope you're kepping well.

[andyl222]

If there are no incidents I'd be surpriseed if it isnt taped over within two days.

Your greatest difficulty is proving this train was early. Remember, all IE have to do is prove the TVM was working that day, hey presto you're gone.

Even if it was early... Maynooth line.... its hardly as if the next train was at 18.00 was it?

This depends on which Judge you get. Dont be intimidated by Mr Byrnes. You may get a fine or you may get lucky, dont forget District Court Judges get the train too, and suffer the various problems associated with them, god knows they may also have been in a similar situation. This is a point Mr Byrnes should consider when he reads this thread as well as the fact that you're not the usual sort of fare-doging character we find in the District Court.

At this moment i would like to say hello to Rita and Hugh, two of my colleages in the CIE Solicitors Department. Hope you're kepping well.

I understand the difficulties I face in proving my case, but I'm not going to back down. I pay as much as anyone else to get the train week in and week out, to be treated like a common cri minal is an indignity I'm not willin g to accept.
I don't see how the operation of the TVM has any bearing on my situation, if the train is early regardless of how many facilities are in place to acquire a ticket, there would not have been any time to get a ticket and board the train. From the start of the dublin bound platform over the footbridge to the ticket office and back again is about 600-700m.

I can acept that there are regular trains on the maynooth line, but I also want to clarify I had an appointment and to miss this particular train would have caused me serious problems with regard to my college situation.

[Derek Wheeler]

At this moment i would like to say hello to Rita and Hugh, two of my colleages in the CIE Solicitors Department. Hope you're kepping well.

:D

Ah Stamp, you're mad.

Mark, can you lock the thread off from the CIE server.

These incidents are increasing and its alarming. IEs inconsistancies are the route cause of many problems. I frequently travel on the Kildare line between Sallins and Heuston. Sallins is generally unstaffed. Tickets are usually purchased on the train. In the afternoons there is rarely a checker on board the train so I can't buy a ticket. On arrival at Heuston tickets are not checked. On the return journey in the late evening, I can buy a single ticket from a TVM. This ticket is rarely checked, if ever as the platform gate is unstaffed and there's no checker on board.

Legally, Im supposed to have a ticket for my inward journey. But I cant buy that ticket in Heuston from a TVM. I could go to the ticket office, but at that point, there is no proof that I travelled in on the train, if I decide not to. In general IE make it hard for themselves and their customers. FACT.

My one serious gripe with Mr. Byrnes responses to the OP (who is a dissatisfied customer of IE) is the tone. He is behaving in an arrogant and agressive manner and lacks any sort of customer service skills, while blatantly ignoring the issue of an early train being the cause of the incident in question. My advice is to put it in writing to the line manager, the CEO, politicians and the DOT. Then refuse to pay the fine until all your complaints are addressed and verified in an open and accountable manner. Furthermore does the booth in Connolly on P4, clearly state that its "only" for ticket purchases from unstaffed stations?

[andyl222]

:D

Ah Stamp, you're mad.

Mark, can you lock the thread off from the CIE server.

These incidents are increasing and its alarming. IEs inconsistancies are the route cause of many problems. I frequently travel on the Kildare line between Sallins and Heuston. Sallins is generally unstaffed. Tickets are usually purchased on the train. In the afternoons there is rarely a checker on board the train so I can't buy a ticket. On arrival at Heuston tickets are not checked. On the return journey in the late evening, I can buy a single ticket from a TVM. This ticket is rarely checked, if ever as the platform gate is unstaffed and there's no checker on board.

Legally, Im supposed to have a ticket for my inward journey. But I cant buy that ticket in Heuston from a TVM. I could go to the ticket office, but at that point, there is no proof that I travelled in on the train, if I decide not to. In general IE make it hard for themselves and their customers. FACT.

My one serious gripe with Mr. Byrnes responses to the OP (who is a dissatisfied customer of IE) is the tone. He is behaving in an arrogant and agressive manner and lacks any sort of customer service skills, while blatantly ignoring the issue of an early train being the cause of the incident in question. My advice is to put it in writing to the line manager, the CEO, politicians and the DOT. Then refuse to pay the fine until all your complaints are addressed and verified in an open and accountable manner. Furthermore does the booth in Connolly on P4, clearly state that its "only" for ticket purchases from unstaffed stations?

The inconsistancies you mention seem to be rife throughout the organisation, its ridiculous to think that a country with such a level of wealth and affluence can still run its rail service with this hamfisted attitude. Rules are rules till they're too difficult to enforce,then they're treated with indifference.

The ticket booth on platform 4.....It's apparently not a ticket booth at all.... hahahahah. as ridiculous as it sounds, Mr. Byrne told me I was unreasonable to believe I could have bought a ticket there after boarding the train in coolmine, so as far as I know its just a booth to fine people. This logic defies me.

I would agree with you in reference to Mr. Byrne's tone throughout our recent correspondence. It would seem as soon as I place a valid argument in front of Mr. Byrne it gets ignored in favour of some more minor point with which he has issue. His attempts to intimidate me with farcical insinuations of illegal activity on my part with regard to using one of his past emails against him is just one example of his ever exemplary customer services technique.

[Thomas J Stamp]

it says "no ticket, come here" honest!!! Like a sign in the Rangers Bar on the Shankill "Celtic supporter? Come here"

[Thomas J Stamp]

Derek, would you give Steevetee a ring, he's feeling very left out in that monestereving thread

[andyl222]

it says "no ticket, come here" honest!!! Like a sign in the Rangers Bar on the Shankill "Celtic supporter? Come here"

pretty much, it reminds me of that creature,is it an angler fish? the one with the glowing appendage attached to its head, it lures in victims and then devours them. How would IE react if the booth had posters announcing it to be a booth for fining people placed on the front of the counter out of the attendants line of sight......

[Derek Wheeler]

The ticket booth on platform 4.....It's apparently not a ticket booth at all.... hahahahah. as ridiculous as it sounds, Mr. Byrne told me I was unreasonable to believe I could have bought a ticket there after boarding the train in coolmine, so as far as I know its just a booth to fine people. This logic defies me.


But he does say that this facility was afforded to passengers who board at unstaffed stations that have no method of ticket purchase. Yet he claims that the big red sign in connolly says no ticket no travel????? Is Byrne on medication or just plain confused about it all. (legal note: this is a genuine question, not a suggestion or accusation) So what do I do if I board at Broombridge. I can't buy a ticket there. So can I pay at the "tardis", sorry, "booth" in connolly?

Therefore it is very easy for customers to assume that you can purchase at the other end for a variety of reasons. Everthing IE state is locked up in terms and conditions and posters that don't explain exceptions. Are customers now expected to do a crash course in IE terms and conditions? Do the posters mention exceptions to the rule? Are IE using the law to cover the fact that their system is confused, mixed up and lacking in any form of customer focused direction? (its neither an honour system or a totally staffed system) Will they introduce random questioning at ticket offices and TVMs?

Customer: Return to Connolly please.
IE staff: Eh bud. Before I can sell you this ticket, can you tell me what rule 5, section 3, paragraph 7 refers to in the terms and conditions of travel?
Customer: You're having a laugh right?
IE staff: Actually pal, Im not. No answer no ticket. Jaysus thats good innit. Might send that to head office wha?

Andy, push it as far as you think you can tolerate. Perhaps you should contact your local paper. Are the Dublin people or Echo in your area? Or you could try the Kildare post as your from Maynooth? I'd gladly help you on that score.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Well, that particular venus fly trap can be neatly avaioded by people who board at boombridge when the hut is closed. So if you were to say you got on at Coolmine you'd be in trouble. Also, for many years Howth Junction was unmanned, so i assume anyone who gets on there will also get a ticket form the venus fly trap and those who admit to getting on elsewhere will get a fine.

This is yet another edition of the arse-ways handbook of doing things by Irish Rail.

How to do it: 1, install TVMs in all stations. 2, install exit validation in all stations, 3, install venus fly trap

How its done: 1, do not install TVMs, thus giving an excuse for not having a ticket, 2, do not install exit validation, agains meaning you can get out without a ticket if station is unmanned, 3, install venus fly trap and cause grief and hassle.

[Mark Gleeson]

This thread is now locked out to CIE eyes :D

I have boarded at Broombridge and paid at the booth, I boarded Seapoint last week booking office closed again paid Connolly no questions asked. I will admit I had a valid monthly in my back pocket but it was a chance to try the system

The guys where out in Pearse this morning at the table

[Mark Hennessy]

The booth in Connolly does say get your ticket here!

I was tempted to go up to the guy this week to get a CIE photo id but I thought he would just fine me for traveling on a monthly pass without the proper ID.

Still waiting for the RPA to send me out my LUAS id, no doubt ill get fined on that too :rolleyes:

[andyl222]

Hey all, got an email back from Councillor Mc Ginley this morning, he's interested in the time a train would stay stationary at any given station, I assume to verify not only that the train was early but that it also departed from Coolmine early. I know it left early, but does anyone know if there is a set timescale for trains standing at a station? Cheers.

[Mark Gleeson]

No set timescale but of the order of 20-40 second depending on the number of people add 5 more seconds for the time between doors closing and the train moving, of course if the train is early it should sit and wait for the clock

Not enough time to cross bridge get ticket and run back, bare in mind you should never run...

The internal timetable is given to 30 second resolution so if a train is listed as 12:50 it could mean 12:50:30

[clonsilladart]

Joan's doing her bit again...... http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=596

Another bit of ammo against IE when Local TD is calling for change.

[Mark Gleeson]

As has been shown elsewhere

The level crossing in Coolmine shows no change in downtime
Access to both platforms is possible with gates down
Tickets are sold from the secondary ticket office during morning peak (hit miss though)
Note serious commuters would have weekly/monthly/annual

Neither of the alleged fare evasion cases resulted from the inability to buy a ticket in Coolmine

Joan of course missed the most obvious issue with a TVM and its staring us in the face from the photo at that link, look carefully

[clonsilladart]

Joan of course missed the most obvious issue with a TVM and its staring us in the face from the photo at that link, look carefully
No child ticket....... Am i right, Am i right, Am i right????? :)

[markpb]

Joan of course missed the most obvious issue with a TVM and its staring us in the face from the photo at that link, look carefully

Docklands are missing *rolls eyes*

[Mark Gleeson]

Docklands are missing *rolls eyes*

Disco, though child/student/social welfare/destinations out of Heuston are all valid

[andyl222]

My fine is due tomorrow.....I've yet to get a response to my last email from Mr. John Byrne
.

[Mark Gleeson]

You got two choices
1 Pay in person Connolly tomorrow
2 Go to court and it looks like IE are looking forward to that

Now what happens if IE refuse to take your money tomorrow, does that make it null and void??

[andyl222]

You got two choices
1 Pay in person Connolly tomorrow
2 Go to court and it looks like IE are looking forward to that

Now what happens if IE refuse to take your money tomorrow, does that make it null and void??

That's a very good question, can they refuse to allow me to pay my fine??? In this instance the banks aren't open today, I don't have access to my account (let's just say, hypothetically), surely they must give me the extra day to pay my fine..... Or maybe as you said Mark, they're quite looking forward to dragging me to court. I'll be sending those registered letters to IE and their public relations office tomorrow morning. I'll wait and see how they get responded to.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its corparate communications and I wouldn't bother

Man you want is General Manager Northern and Eastern, his station, his train, all staff on the Maynooth line report to him even the revenue guys

[andyl222]

Its corparate communications and I wouldn't bother

Man you want is General Manager Northern and Eastern, his station, his train, all staff on the Maynooth line report to him even the revenue guys


Do you know where I could find his mailing address?

[Mark Gleeson]

http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/whoswho.php#IE

Cal Carmichael
General Manager Northern and Eastern
Iarnród Éireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

[andyl222]

http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/whoswho.php#IE

Cal Carmichael
General Manager Northern and Eastern
Iarnród Éireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

Do you think contacting Mr. Carmichael and voicing my disappointment with the manner in which Mr. Byrne has handled this situation (attaching a full transcript of our correspondences) could have any effect???

[Mark Gleeson]

Unlikely but Mr Carmichael reports the CEO and is responsible for all matters excluding infrastructure which happens on his patch, which includes the Sligo line

The early train is his problem as is Mr Byrne who reports to the three General Managers (N&E, S&W and DART)

[ThomasJ]

I have just arrived for a train to town at coolmine coming from the coolmine side. The gates went down so i went to open the gate on the city bound platform side. And it was locked. I have an annual ticket so in my opinion i should not be made walk to the ticket office side. So i waited for seven to eight minutes as both a connolly and longford train was passing. I went to the ticket office and was told that the gate only opens between seven and nine. I was not in a hurry so did not mind waiting the extra ten or so minutes but if it was twenty past one and that happened and as a result of that i had to wait an hour for the next train i would have gone mad. It really is a disgrace and discriminates against those coming from the coolmine side.

[Mark Hennessy]

A letter in todays metro outlines another story of a D15 commuter who got fined whilst getting on the train in Ashtown. Same kinda story, running for the train coming from the new apts there and offered to pay for a ticket in Pearse.

Surely it is time for IE to put TVM's on the Dublin bound platforms in Clonsilla and Ashtown.

[clonsilladart]

Surely it is time for IE to put TVM's on the Dublin bound platforms in Clonsilla and Ashtown.

They are on the Dublin bound platform at Clonsilla.... It's Coolmine where they are not.

[Mark Hennessy]

They are on the Dublin bound platform at Clonsilla.... It's Coolmine where they are not.

Yep sorry meant Coolmine.

[andyl222]

A letter in todays metro outlines another story of a D15 commuter who got fined whilst getting on the train in Ashtown. Same kinda story, running for the train coming from the new apts there and offered to pay for a ticket in Pearse.

Surely it is time for IE to put TVM's on the Dublin bound platforms in Clonsilla and Ashtown.

I read that particular letter, once again the misconception that you can pay at your destination has been the cause for this issue. In the letter the woman mentioned how the inspector took all her details under the guise of sending her a bill for her 2 euro ticket, then when he had all her information proceeded to issue her fine. Its ridiculous that this unscrupulous behaviour can be accepted from IE staff.

[Thomas J Stamp]

1. If you are late - you're late. Get the next train.

2. The SI is quite explicit - when the booking office is closed you may pay on the train (if there is a conductor/ticket checker) or pay at destination.

3. Only since the arrivals of TVM's at certain stations have we seen the introduction of the Venus Fly Traps in City Centre

4. If i have to spell it out for you - you are too stupid to get a train in the first place.

[Colm Donoghue]

1. If you are late - you're late. Get the next train.

4. If i have to spell it out for you - you are too stupid to get a train in the first place.

1. What if you arrive at Connolly at 23:15 and the ticket office's closed?
I'ts a looong wait til the next train.

2. What is a booking office? If you can't book seats to intercity stations (Arklow) I'm pretty sure you can't book tickets on commuter services.

4. Hamiltonian mathematics are difficult. Look this up on wikipedia.

[Mark Gleeson]

1. What if you arrive at Connolly at 23:15 and the ticket office's closed?
I'ts a looong wait til the next train.You may board the train without a ticket if the booking office is closed, you must then pay on the train or at destination. If there is no one to collect your fare the SI does not require you to pay later. Its IE's obligation to collect the fare

2. What is a booking office? If you can't book seats to intercity stations (Arklow) I'm pretty sure you can't book tickets on commuter services.Any staffed office at a station which sells tickets

[Colm Donoghue]

Why not, and this may be so crazy it just might work, call it a ticket office?

[Terrontress]

A good few letters into the Metro this morning about the charging of fines.

[James Shields]

While the rules are clear, IE have clearly operated a policy over the years where it was acceptable to buy your ticket upon arrival. They have now changed that policy without warning, and proceeded to issue fines in a way that for many crimes would be considered "entrapment".

[Colm Donoghue]

Letter in one of the freesheets today making a case that the data obtained by IE from you in pretence of giving you an invoice and subsequently fining you is in breach of the data protection act fair dealing regulations....

I'm not sure of this argument, are IE only selling you a "standard fare" ticket.

On the other hand if they took any more data than was strictly necessary to issue the ticket (name and address) they would be in breach of the data protection act regulations.

[Mark Gleeson]

Legally they have a right to take your name and address

35. Any person who is reasonably suspected of committing or attempting to commit any offence against these Bye-Laws shall give his or her name and address to any authorised person when requested to do so.

Common sense tells you to pay before you travel, there have been and continue to be heaps of posters at stations and on trains telling you to have a ticket. It has become easier to issue a standard fare following recent legal changes in the rail safety act

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking, as the officer or employee decides, or
(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.

We have discussed several cases to death here, but both where fully legitimate collars

You where on a train without a ticket you got done and I think a lot of people need to grow up

[Terrontress]

I think that what all this shows is that there is a difference between fare evasion and travelling without a ticket.

In each example we have read on here and in the papers, the passengers have boarded the train in good faith, fully intending to pay for their journeys. This is not enough.

Irish Rail have been advertising that failure to show a valid ticket will result in a penalty fare. Even if someone has a ticket but fails to show it, if for example they have left it at home and can prove that they own one, they will still be fined.

This is coinciding with the introduction of the new ticket barriers, which are ridiculously easy to follow someone through without a ticket. The only consequence seems to be the sound of a steam train's horn.

Therefore, the sensible thing to do when you find yourself without a ticket in good faith is to squeeze through the barrier behind the person in front of you. In the event that you are caught, you will have to pay the fine. But there is also the much greater likelihood that you will be allowed away scott free. Either way; you are no worse off than if you queue up like a lamb to the slaughter to receive your fine.

[Colm Donoghue]

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway



But this is what has happened until now. IE changed their application of the law.
IE are only going to catch honest people at connolly anyone with a clue will say they got on in broom bridge.
Mark you've pointed out inconsistencies in what the IE posters say and what is the law,

You've seen BigNelly's post on Boards.ie where he claims he was allowed pay at the destination in Pearse in November.

IE's website claims the "booking" office at Rush and Lusk station has certain opening hours, I've regularly seen the office closed during these hours.

IE want to cop th e**** on and have a single consistent customer focused regard for their passengers.
If they are going to spout sh1te with regard to no ticket no travel then make sure every station is staffed for the entire time trains service that station.

They should also make sure their trains run. on time.
They should also after closing the line at weekends for more than a year to make stations accessible make sure they maintain the lifts.

they should also, after erecting a sign to point to the exit of a station, open the goddamn exit during the hours the newly erected sign says.

They should also consider posting notices of altered timetables outside locked station buildings so their customers can know why there is no train to get them into work until ten am.
They should also, if they alter the timetables, actually run the service they advertise in their alteration notice.

They should make it easy to for intending passengers to buy a ticket and not make them jump through hoops or take them a million miles out of their way to do so.

they should also punish people who intend to not pay for their journey.

They should at the very least employ managers to manage the company who can do so.

[Mark Gleeson]

Even if someone has a ticket but fails to show it, if for example they have left it at home and can prove that they own one, they will still be fined. If it is a weekly/monthly/annual ticket you have 14 days to produce it and the fine will be struck out. And they will know if it was issued before you got caught

We have heard of not one case where a passenger was fined incorrectly, i.e. boarded unstaffed station and fined, thats where action can be taken. It is your responsibility to arrive in good time to buy a ticket

Travelling without a ticket is permitted under specific conditions, fare evasion is where you board without a ticket outside those conditions

Now we can argue all day about the queue at the booking office and the stupid TVM's but staffed station board no ticket, fine you got done no comeback.

IE have had the right to issue standard fares for decades that has not changed, the amount they can charge has, what did change was cases in the courts started to get thrown out on the basis of pay at the other end. So the posters started to appear in 2004 actually

The rules are simple, extremely simple

If you can purchase a ticket at the station you board at you must, failing to do so may result in a fine

[andyl222]

I was wondering yesterday, what's to stop people from getting on a train at say broombridge where there is no ticket office, and then simply getting off the train at any stop between there and longford without a ticket? there is no validation when exiting any of the ticket stations.... that would of sourse fall into the area of fare evasion, no question, and as IE are working so hard to crackdown on that, then why don't they inforce it in the 13 stations between broombridge and longford?

[Mark Gleeson]

You are legally obliged to purchase a ticket either on the train or at destination, now if IE don't have someone at the far end or on the train well you go for free

The fly trap as Tom has named it is the busiest flow of passengers in the country so one guy at the booth is very efficient. He will sell you a ticket if you board in Broombridge. I've been through twice without ticket having boarded at a unstaffed station and had no problems getting a ticket and getting through.

It would be be in the passenger interest to have a roaming team out on trains that has the side effect of dealing with anti social behaviour. There is a team out, but they tend to stake out stations randomly at peak hours

[Colm Donoghue]

The rules are simple, extremely simple

If you can purchase a ticket at the station you board at you must, failing to do so may result in a fine

Did you not say you don't have to buy at a tvm? if the office's closed?
(In some other thread. maybe on boards.ie)

If I'm mistaken and it is as simple as the single sentence above, it's just more proof of IE's useless attitude to customers.

I say lock this thread. unless andyl gets more news.

[Mark Gleeson]

If you can purchase a ticket....

We know the rules don't mention the vending machine but its a weak defence if all you wanted was a single or return. If you wanted a student monthly or a ticket to Cork from Clonsilla well you can't purchase that ticket. If the TVM can issue the ticket you want use it.

I've outlined the simplest possible and sensible approach to having a ticket. The issue at hand here is not the rules, which by all accounts are perfectly reasonable, they are common sense. The issue is the hit and miss application of the standard fare combined with a long history of lax enforcement.

We await the day when passenger is refused a ticket on train or destination and is fined despite having boarded under the unstaffed booking office clause

[Colm Donoghue]

I told ye to lock the thread ;)

if you look at the luas, ticket machine on every platform, don't get on without a ticket. simple.

IE say don't get on without a ticket. end of.
unless you can't get a ticket but we won't tell you that. and we'll be aggressive and surly and if a train breaks down we won't tell you how to get a refund and if you email us it'll go to the great email in the sky and you muct obey our terms and conditions and we say we'll obey ours but we won't and dammit IE annoy me.

[James Shields]

Do they still have the "back in 5 mins" sign in the window at Lasndowne Road? I know at one stage that sign was almost always up if I arrived any time outside rush hour.

[Terrontress]

Do they still have the "back in 5 mins" sign in the window at Lasndowne Road? I know at one stage that sign was almost always up if I arrived any time outside rush hour.

No, they don't have that. What they do have is a member of staff watching TV and the ticket barrier nearest to the ticket office constantly open with red Xs. I have sauntered through as I have my weekly ticket. No request to see the ticket. In fact, he doesn't even look up from his telly!

[zag]

It seems (based on limited observation) that even stations which are nominally manned are often unmanned from a practical point of view.

Clontarf Road in particular seems to be manned by phone addicts who have an affliction which causes their feet to stick to desktops. On a number of occasions I have seen people attempting to buy tickets from the *ticket desk* only to be waved off towards the machines with the hand that is not holding the telephone while the conversation continues without regard to the customer. I know of course that some of these calls could be important operational calls, but given how often these guys are on the phone there must be a lot of them that aren't operational.

I was passing through last week some time and there were a load of people (maybe 10 or so) stuck on the platform side because one person had a ticket for City Centre and the gates wouldn't let him through, someone else was trying and failing to get through with a buggy and there was some other problem with the 3rd gate. It took a what looked like a long time for the guy behind the counter to realise there was a backlog and come out to open the gates.

z

[byrneeo]

seriously, if they trick you into giving your details or if you have a legitimate expectation that you can pay at the destination, regardless of the written rules, you might have a case. talk to a solicitor if you care that much. but seriously, from a pragmatic point of view, if they go all high and mighty, pay the fine and generate negative publicity. best approach every time. there is no point fighting it because of all the hassle. hell, it would probably cost you €50 to win in terms of train and luas tickets to and from court as well as your time off work.

[Mark Gleeson]

I would point out if you are asked for your details on the grounds that they are of the opinion that you may have broken a byelaw, and no ticket is a reasonable opinion you have to give them or else you have committed an offence.

Clearly if they refuse your money for the normal fare they are trying to issue the fine

They have no case if you boarded at an unstaffed station, if that is the case and they continue to attempt to issue the fine

1. Take names (they will refuse thats fine see point 3)
2. Tell them they have broken the law by refusing to issue a ticket under SI 109 1984
3. Get the gardai involved

[byrneeo]

I would point out if you are asked for your details on the grounds that they are of the opinion that you may have broken a byelaw, and no ticket is a reasonable opinion you have to give them or else you have committed an offence.

Clearly if they refuse your money for the normal fare they are trying to issue the fine

They have no case if you boarded at an unstaffed station, if that is the case and they continue to attempt to issue the fine

1. Take names (they will refuse thats fine see point 3)
2. Tell them they have broken the law by refusing to issue a ticket under SI 109 1984
3. Get the gardai involved

but if they ask for your name for a stated or reasonably presumed purpose and then they use it for another (i.e. to issue a fine), you should be able to stop them. while they are able to ask for your name, you can refuse. sure, they may get mighty pissed off; they could probably even get you arrested, but using your name for a purpose you didn't reasonably expect when you gave it is just as much of an offence as not paying your way.

[Mark Gleeson]

I don't have a ticket and this IE official wants my name and address its not as if they are looking for your details so as to send you a birthday card

Even in the rudest possible way it goes like this

Do you have ticket?
No
Where did you board?
X
I will need to take your name and address

The actual question is must IE serve you with the standard fare notice at the point of detection or can they send it later

The fine for false details is up to €1000

Its all academic really since we have heard of no one issued with a fine who had boarded under the unstaffed booking office provision.

[Sean Daly]

So,

If i happen to get no ticket at my depature station, say its Mullingar and arrive in Connolly and Q at the desk that says 'no ticket q here' and tell them i boarded say at broombridge, regardless of where i boarded i should be ok?

Come back later that day get a ticket to my destination, one way if available and everything is rossie?

Sounds great!

I have one other question, well 2 really, 1) why is there no one way fare from outside maynooth, eg edgeworthstown to connolly, and 2) why does the fare cost 25.50 return on a friday versus 17.50 any other day? Iknow they are two differant tickets, one is a month return and one is day return, but they will not issue a day return ticket on a friday in edge!:confused:

Regards
Sean

[Mark Gleeson]

If i happen to get no ticket at my depature station, say its Mullingar and arrive in Connolly and Q at the desk that says 'no ticket q here' and tell them i boarded say at broombridge, regardless of where i boarded i should be ok? We can't condone fare evasion, if the ticket office in Mullingar was closed you have nothing to fear by asking for Mullingar Dublin either single or return, few Mullingar Dublin services call in Broombridge which means you will be caught out

I have one other question, well 2 really, 1) why is there no one way fare from outside maynooth, eg edgeworthstown to connolly, and 2) why does the fare cost 25.50 return on a friday versus 17.50 any other day? Iknow they are two differant tickets, one is a month return and one is day return, but they will not issue a day return ticket on a friday in edge!:confused:

There is a one way fare, there always is but if it is more than the return well the staff have little choice but to issue the return. Day returns are never available on Friday or Sunday on intercity routes

[Dave]

Day returns are never available on Friday or Sunday on intercity routes

Why not?

[Mark Gleeson]

Why not?
1. There is no obligation to offer them at all
2. No shortage of punters to pay full fare on Friday

[packetswitch]

I spotted this at a suburban station in Birmingham yesterday - a list of names and addresses (of the type St. Patrick Street, Wolverhampton rather than precise details, but enough to satisfy the libel law fear!) of those convicted of evasion (amounts given too). Very striking.

[2Funki4Wheelz]

Day returns are never available on Friday or Sunday on intercity routes


Great reason to get a weekender ID ;)

[Mark Gleeson]

Great reason to get a weekender ID ;)

Yes but be careful, there are many occassions that a adult return is less than the weekender card fare!!

[2Funki4Wheelz]

I am now in the habit of asking for my ticket and adding 'Or whatever is the cheapest fare, please' as I was told to do after a complaint years ago when myself and my partner were charged different prices for the one journey on the one day.

[CSL]

Here is the link to SI 109/1984 FYI

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI109Y1984.html

[Colm Donoghue]

I presume the below means tickets are non-transferrable. how would you get a ticket in the first place though?
And "Obtain" is a verb used by myself and others to describe getting something without buying it in a shop yet without disclosing how one would get it.
-------------------------


8. (1) Subject to paragraph (3) of this Bye-Law, no person shall, with intent that any person shall use the same for the purpose of travelling or conveyance upon the railway—


( a ) sell or buy or attempt to sell or buy any ticket;


---------------
Paragraph 3 is here
-------------------
3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—


(1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or


(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.


The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its the non transfer clause, authorised person is quite different

[MOH]

But it says "he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket ".
So if you buy a ticket from someone else, would it not be a straightforward defence that they bought the ticket on your behalf?


Thought the "unmanned manned station" comment raised a valid point, what's the definition of manned? Which of these would count as an "unstaffed booking office"?

- If the station is open, but the bloke's gone off for a cup of tea/call of nature/nap/gaming session, and there's a sign up;
- If he's gone off for a while but hasn't put the sign up;
- If he's stepped out of view for 30 seconds while you happen to arrive;
- If he's bent down below the counter level tying his lace;
- If he is actually there but is on the phone and refusing to serve anyone.

I've definitely been in stations which were "open" but where there was no-one behind the counter, but there was no sign up, but since I'm on an annual ticketI'd never be hanging around waiting for the guy.

[Terrontress]

Am I right in thinking that anyone who uses the lift from the northbound platform in Portmarnock to get over to the southbound platform can be pursued for fare evasion, based on the statue book?

[Mark Gleeson]

Since Portmarnock is a open station as in no barriers you haven't broken the rule concerning entry to the platform without valid ticket

[andyl222]

Just a quick update. I received an email from Joan Burton in reference to my situation. She has gotten in contact with Cal Carmichael on my behalf and his response was as non-committal and vague as Mr. Byrne's. The basic gist is this, everyone must understand Iarnoid Eireann's need for Revenue protection yadda yadda yadda. His closing statement was that in certain cases an individual must pursue their cause as far as the courts where their case and circumstances can be judged on their merits. If this is the case it would seem Mr.Byrne's position is redundant, and therefore so is he.
So essentially it would seem neither Mr.Byrne or Mr.Carmichael have any intention of reducing or quashing any fines that are issued, they leave it to go to court where it can be judged. Surely they must have procedures in place whereby they can affect the change or dismissal of a penalty issued by one of their staff, but I guess customer satisfaction is very low on their list of priorities. In this situation where the public is strangled by a state run organisation with omnipotence in their field ( rail travel) and a vampiric lust for profits, the customer will always be a very lowly priority, afterall it is a captive market.

[Colm Moore]

A good few letters into the Metro this morning about the charging of fines.Here:MAIL METRO

Monday, April 16, 2007

Fines punish honest people

Unfair Punters must be properly informed about the fare rules

-----------------------------------

I read Chloe's letter (MailMetro, Thurs) and halfway through I knew what the outcome was, as I have been through the same scenario.

My circumstances were different in that I couldn't get a ticket due to the automated ticket machines at my station being out of service.

Not wanting to miss my train, I thought: 'There is a little desk at Connolly and I will pay there.' I queued up at Connolly at a desk advertising 'No Ticket - please queue here' and 'Get a ticket not a criminal record' as I wanted to pay for my journey - and was given a €50 fine for my efforts to avoid getting a criminal record!

If I was caught trying to go through the barrier on an out of date ticket or without any ticket whatsoever then I would deserve a fine. However, if I go out of my way to pay and I still get a €50 fine, where is the common sense in that?

L Jenning by e-mail

-----------------------------------

To Chloe and everyone else who's been, fined by Irish Rail: there are no signs in Tara Connolly or Pearse stations which mention the fines. Write and tell Irish Rail that their communication about the new fines has been non¬-existent and ask them to reconsider.

KM, Dublin 15

-----------------------------------

Recently, I got to, Tara Street station and, just like Chloe, told a member of staff I wanted to pay my fare, just like I have done a few times previously.

In the past, staff have been happy to issue me with a written ticket in return for my fare. However, this time I was blown away with the arrogance and unfairness with which I was confronted.

Like Chloe, I too felt like I had done something wrong and was close to tears. All I was doing was being honest. I am outraged that they think they can get away with this. A €50 fine is ridiculous for doing nothing wrong but being honest. I can understand if the staff member had issued me with a warning, as I would then know a fine can be issued for not purchasing a ticket at your departure station.

However, the fare rules have not been adequately publicised

Sarah Kelly, Dublin 15

[MOH]

Just a quick update. I received an email from Joan Burton in reference to my situation. She has gotten in contact with Cal Carmichael on my behalf and his response was as non-committal and vague as Mr. Byrne's. The basic gist is this, everyone must understand Iarnoid Eireann's need for Revenue protection yadda yadda yadda. His closing statement was that in certain cases an individual must pursue their cause as far as the courts where their case and circumstances can be judged on their merits. If this is the case it would seem Mr.Byrne's position is redundant, and therefore so is he.
So essentially it would seem neither Mr.Byrne or Mr.Carmichael have any intention of reducing or quashing any fines that are issued, they leave it to go to court where it can be judged. Surely they must have procedures in place whereby they can affect the change or dismissal of a penalty issued by one of their staff, but I guess customer satisfaction is very low on their list of priorities. In this situation where the public is strangled by a state run organisation with omnipotence in their field ( rail travel) and a vampiric lust for profits, the customer will always be a very lowly priority, afterall it is a captive market.


That's great, cause we all know the courts have nothing to do these days other than sit around and deal with fare evasion cases. Typical IE to avoid doing anything to resolve the issue, which might involve a bit of work, when they can leave it up to the overloaded courts

[ooleary]

More letters in yesterdays and todays metro - 2 people getting stuck with the 50 euro fine today. One of the letter writers was let off the fine after the Pearse staff phoned their local station where it was confirmed they had been let through without a ticket; the other letter writer boarded a train when it arrived after they had been unsuccessfully queuing for a ticket for 15 minutes in coolmine.

[Mark Gleeson]

Pattern here is people without tickets are getting done, those who have a legitimate case i.e. unstaffed or where permitted to board (as is allowed in law) by a member of staff have not been fined

As of today we are aware of ZERO people who got fined despite being legally permitted to travel without a ticket and trust me I have tried to get fined while still legal

Coolmine has a TVM a staffed office and the office in the container, I'd love to know why so many people are still buying singles and returns, its always confused me why there was a massive queue at 5:45pm in Pearse for tickets. There are 3 day tickets, 7 day and monthly and so on, you can buy your ticket the day before.

[zag]

Mark,

People buy singles because they make single journeys. If you take the train 2 or 3 seperate days in a week you can't benefit from the 3 days tickets or the 7 day ones. Bring back the 10 journey ticket. Bring in an oyster-equivalent. Using these would reduce queueing time significantly. Before I got my annual ticket (which still only makes sense with the tax relief) I used to buy my return every morning because I only used the train *some* days a week. Buying a weekly ticket went against the grain (and cost more) if I knew I was unlikely to use it both directions every day.

I didn't know you could buy your ticket the day before travelling - does that work on the TVMs ? How many people know of this ability ?

The case in Metro was very close to someone who was allowed travel without a ticket getting a fine. They only didn't get the fine because Pearse rang their origin station. If Pearse didn't have time/couldn't be bothered/wasn't their job/etc . . . then the person would have got a fine despite apparently being allowed travel from their origin without a ticket.

z

[markpb]

I'd agree with that. Commuter tickets in Dublin are just for that: people who travel medium-distance, fixed routes every weekday without deviation. If you travel short distances or want to change mode, the ticket won't cover you. There's also the silly insistance (from DB and IR) that monthly tickets should run for calendar months.

I travel from Stephens Green to Sandyford every day and a weekly ticket saves me less than 3 euro. When I lived in LA, a monthly bus+rail ticket was 40 dollars (after a discount from my employers) and was available everywhere. Any bus, any train, any time in an area much larger than GDA. You can't even buy that (DB, Dart, Luas) ticket in Dublin and even if you could it would be extortionate.

[2Funki4Wheelz]

Why were 10 journey tickets binned? I remember when they were taken of Dublin Bus, they were so handy for infrequent travellers - like a primitive smart card.
Is it because they reckon people will get 10+ out of them wherever they don't get checked? I've saved on the odd 2easy DB ticket when the machine's broken.

[Terrontress]

Since Portmarnock is a open station as in no barriers you haven't broken the rule concerning entry to the platform without valid ticket


Yes but you have entered a lift, which seems to be against the byelaws as you are being carried....

[Colm Donoghue]

. Buying your Ticket

We will endeavour to sell you the most appropriate ticket to meet your expressed needs. If you do not already have a ticket, we advise that you arrive at the station in sufficient time to obtain one.

Excluding exceptional circumstances, our standard for ticket offices is that, during advertised hours of business, you should not have to wait for more than seven minutes to buy your ticket.

Outside our busy peak periods, we aim to serve you within three minutes.


http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/home/customer_charter.asp


Either IE pay lip service to their customer charter or else delete it and piss on their honest customers.

The person who was waiting > 15 mins also showed their ticket upside down to the inspector at pearse for the next week and wasn't checked. Mockery I tells ya

[PaulM]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but it is quite and interesting one.

The funny thing is, if the "fly trap" actually pointed out it was a desk for the standard fair, people wouldn't be queuing at it. I (like many others) always assumed it was a last chance thing.

To me (no legal training) it seems like entrapment. I know the rules (from here) but if I didn't and thought I could legally get a ticket at Connolly if I was running late, that's what I'd do.

Does Andy still post here, did he pay the fine?

The person who was waiting > 15 mins also showed their ticket upside down to the inspector at pearse for the next week and wasn't checked. Mockery I tells ya

A fun game is to show them whatever you like. I'm yet to be caught doing this. :D

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not a fly trap, nor is it entrappment, no ticket you get a fine unless that station you boarded was unstaffed

The booth has the full capabilty of a booking office, it has a ticket issuing machine, boxes of tickets etc. Its primary purpose is to ensure everyone passing the turnstiles has a ticket to get out, by virtue of that function it does of course collect a lot of fare evaders

The Broombridge line doesn't always work since staff are posted from time to time to Broombridge for that very reason

Fare revenue is up significantly more than the number of extra passengers since the booth arrived which tells you a story

To this day not one single report of a fine being issued to a passenger who boarded at an unstaffed station

[markpb]

To this day not one single report of a fine being issued to a passenger who boarded at an unstaffed station

It might be heresay but a neighbour of mine was complaining yesterday that he arrived at Howth Junction for an early train a while ago and found the ticket machine turned off and the ticket desk unmanned so he boarded the train. When he went to pay in Connolly they didn't believe him and issued a fine.

[Mark Gleeson]

No one has contacted us yet, plently of the yes I had no ticket and was in a hurry and the queue was too long.....

If you do get stopped at the booth and are legally clean as the station was closed and the clerk does his/her best shiftless IE on you insist on the station manger being called, I've never had a problem

IE have a legal right to stop you and demand you produce a ticket

[Thomas Ralph]

I have limited if any sympathy for people who could (including could but for circumstances entirely within their control) buy the ticket they wanted and didn't and got fined.

I have occasionally travelled legally without a ticket and not had the opportunity to purchase one because nobody was on the train or at the destination to collect the fare. My fiancée has boarded at Sandymount early on Sunday mornings when the station was closed and the TVMs (inexplicably) shuttered, and had no problems paying her fare at Connolly.

The problem I can see happening is if someone arrives at a station where there is only a TVM and not an attended office and wants to get a ticket which that machine doesn't supply (e.g. a Faircard return from Sandymount to Galway). Since there is some kind of ticket that the person could buy (e.g. a single to Connolly), it looks like they are disadvantaged and there is no legal right to buy a ticket en route or at the destination in that case.

[PaulM]

Ah Mark, as usual you are only seeing things in black and white.

IE are full of inconsistencies.
People are often told to pay at the other end.
There is a desk saying "Purchase your ticket here (or whatever it says).
People have misunderstood this.
People are being caught out by this.
If people knew what it meant, they would purchase their tickets first.
I feel IE are being misleading with this and I am a passenger.

Everyone here knows you need a ticket to board. With the fly trap people have assumed (and rightly so by IE standards) that the purpose of this desk is to pay for a ticket that you didn't pay for before hand. This is where they are getting caught. If IE had consistency in their methods, a large amount of people wouldn't do things like this.

Remember, not all of us have the time to learn each rule and regulation of the railway. IE should make this clear to the public. That is something they have never done. As a committee member of a passenger rights group, I would expect you to be more supportive of the passengers instead of black and white, left or right, one or zero.

[markpb]

If you do get stopped at the booth and are legally clean as the station was closed and the clerk does his/her best shiftless IE on you insist on the station manger being called, I've never had a problem

That may well be but he did have a problem. They didn't believe him and no amount of arguing got him anywhere. In the end he gave them a false address and stopped using the train. If Irish Rail can't get their own house in order and actually have staff selling tickets when they're meant to, it's hypocritical to be taking it out on (ex-)customers.

And like Paul said, he did have every intention of paying so when we saw a stand saying 'buy your ticket here', he went to it, not imaging he was walking into a trap.

[MOH]

Since they moved the ticket machines in Blackrock to outside the station, I've seen people inside when the desk is unmanned looking around trying to work out where they're supposed to buy a ticket. Think they've put a sign up somewhere now explaining they're outside.
Bit stupid though if you arrive to buy your ticket, find the desk is closed, you then have to backtrack to find the TVM.

[philip]

IE are full of inconsistencies.
There's your problem right there. It's not anyone's fault but IE's IMO. Either go with permanently manned stations (excessive!) TVMs at all stations open at all hours with full exit validation or don't start trying to catch people in the maze of IE bylaws that quite frankly, nobody gives a damn about.

[turnapin]

Interesting one at Edgeworthstown last week. Man arrived at the station late. Ticket office open but unstaffed(no machine), as the station master doubles as a flag man and other things and was off up the platform. Doors start beeping, so man jumps on. Luckily there was a ticket inspector on the train after Mullingar and he was allowed buy a ticket. I wonder would what reception he would have got at Connolly if he arrived without a ticket.

[Mark Gleeson]

That was totally legal, booking office unstaffed

Rule has a special condition for this where the member of staff who issues tickets needs to assist in the trains departure (s)he can authorise you to board with no ticket as to not delay the trains departure. Again you don't need to know this. In fact applying nothing more than common sense will see you safely through the system

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity

There is nothing complex or confusing about the state of play, it is the same across most of world and is a perfectly logical state of affairs.

While there is no doubt that Irish Rail have been far from perfect, there have been serious increases in the number of TVM's starting from zero to almost every suburban station having at least one, a significant number are available outside the opening hours of the station

The booth in Connolly is postered with large signs clearly indicating fines will be issued. The law allows the member of staff to either issue the normal ticket or a fine depending on the situation. I have been through the booth in Connolly at least 3 times ticketless, even arriving in from broombridge, never a problem. This is the scenario which concerns us

[philip]

The likes of Clonsilla is a joke. The stations shuts up shop at whatever, 1800 and the TVMs are of course, locked inside. The stupid stupid thing is that there is a signal cabin directly overlooking the station (indeed, in years gone by the signalman was also the station master!) so they could easily leave this one open so as to allow access to the TVMs as I really don't think all my €2 fares over the years paid at the barrier in Tara have gone into IE's bank account, if you know what I mean.

Anyway-why can't they get rid of those clowns at Tara/Connolly and have TVMs set up in 'reverse' mode so you select the station you came from and buy the ticket before exiting the station. At leats that way we'd know the dosh was actually not buying pints at the end of shift (though I'm sure that doesn't ever happen for legal reasons).

[turnapin]

That was totally legal, booking office unstaffed

Rule has a special condition for this where the member of staff who issues tickets needs to assist in the trains departure (s)he can authorise you to board with no ticket as to not delay the trains departure. Again you don't need to know this. In fact applying nothing more than common sense will see you safely through the system

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity



Mark. I don't think this is quite that clear. The gentleman in question didn't have permission from a member of staff to board.

He walked onto the platform, walked into the ticket office, could see no one at the counter and so walked back onto the platform. The doors then started beeping.

At this stage he didn't know
a: if there was someone in the ticket office, but not at the window for the five seconds he was at it.
b: if he could legally board the train
c: if he could pay on the train

By the time we reached Mullingar, I had already decided that if we reached Connolly without a ticket checker, I would hold back at the ticket desk to make sure he didn't get fined. The gentleman looked very anxious when he boarded the train and very relieved when the ticket checker sold him a ticket.

I find it very worrying the Irish Rail stick no ticket no travel posters the length and breadth of the network, only for people to find out that they don't really mean it at certain stations under certain circumstances and at certain times of the day.

[ThomasJ]

The likes of Clonsilla is a joke. The stations shuts up shop at whatever, 1800 and the TVMs are of course, locked inside. The stupid stupid thing is that there is a signal cabin directly overlooking the station (indeed, in years gone by the signalman was also the station master!) so they could easily leave this one open so as to allow access to the TVMs as I really don't think all my €2 fares over the years paid at the barrier in Tara have gone into IE's bank account, if you know what I mean.

Anyway-why can't they get rid of those clowns at Tara/Connolly and have TVMs set up in 'reverse' mode so you select the station you came from and buy the ticket before exiting the station. At leats that way we'd know the dosh was actually not buying pints at the end of shift (though I'm sure that doesn't ever happen for legal reasons).

agreed. When this station becomes a major interchange point in the future they need to sort out the ticket office/information point

[al2637]

The ticket machine in the booking office as Castleknock was out of order a couple of mornings last week. The guy behind the counter instructed people to use the single TVM. Obviously 1 TVM doesn't have the capacity to deal with the passenger numbers at Castleknock in the morning.

Train turns up, everyone leaves the queue and gets on train. Were they right to do this? What other option did they have?


What happens if you turn up at the other end to the new automated barriers with no ticket, and an unmaned ticket office?

[Mark Gleeson]

If the booking office was open, you should buy a ticket unless instructed otherwise, you can take up the queue with IE as a failure to meet the charter (and MOU) requirements

Curiously there is no formal obligation on you to use a TVM, as I have pointed out several times C(IE) have had ticket vending machines since the early 1980's (there only left but out of use) thus the bye laws where written after there introduction so the lack of a mention of a ticket vending machine in the rules is curious

[markpb]

Curiously there is no formal obligation on you to use a TVM, as I have pointed out several times C(IE) have had ticket vending machines since the early 1980's (there only left but out of use) thus the bye laws where written after there introduction so the lack of a mention of a ticket vending machine in the rules is curious

It makes perfect sense to me. Only the ticket office has the ability to issue all (normal) ticket types, whereas the current batch of ticket machines cannot issue certain tickets. Forcing people to use a machine that might not be able to issue the ticket they require would be a bit cheeky.

[PaulM]

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity



Do a quick survey of the commuting public. Ask them do they know this rule.

Then ask them have they ever bought a ticket at their destination. Then ask them if they believe this is acceptable.

[ThomasJ]

Cullen was asked about the possability of introducing a congestion charge in the capital but responded that the public transport resources were not in place.

The only reason I am saying is because in enforcing these rules there needed to be resouces put in place to facilitate. What happened at Castleknock was not right. This station has normal resources of a ticket office and 2 tvms. I have used it at times and the queues for it can be enormous. The fact that it was down to 1 TVM and people were still required to queue to get tickets goes to show how much a joke this rule is.

In putting the exit validation in place it was obvious that while DART stations were upgraded, stations on the Maynooth line are a joke. It is not just Castleknock, look at Coolmine, there were queues for the temp. station out the gate and around by the new bridge the other morning, Clonsilla and Ashtown can be as bad. 1 or 2 tvms (not always working), stations not always open and only 3 turnstiles to validate tickets is not enough! If they are expecting major passenger numbers for these stations they need to facilitate them!

[al2637]

There's actually only one TVM at Castleknock (ridiculous, but thats another point). When I said the ticket machine was broke, I meant the one in the ticket offfice. The guy behind the counter was unable to issue tickets.

From what Mark has said, people who left the TVM queue and got on the train were entitled to do so. (i think?) :confused:

[Mark Gleeson]

We are not aware of anyone who has tried to the TVM not in the rules line.

The booking office was unable to sell a ticket due a technical problem, you would be really unlucky to get done in court on that

[turnapin]

Just to clarify. Can anyone confirm that you will get done for the following

Turn up at station. Train on platform. Que at ticket machine(s) and at counter. Rather than miss the train, jump on train and try to pay at the far end.

[PaulM]

Just to clarify. Can anyone confirm that you will get done for the following

Turn up at station. Train on platform. Que at ticket machine(s) and at counter. Rather than miss the train, jump on train and try to pay at the far end.

Yes you will. This is why the desk at Connolly is misleading. Not everyone knows the rules and people think this is an acceptable alternative.

[ofjames]

Is there always a method of crossing the tracks to the ticket office when the level crossing is closed, lift/ramped access at Coolmine?

On the Blanchardstown side of the tracks at coolmine there is a Turnstile exit and an entrance gate. If the level crossing is closed, the only way to get to the Ticket office is to go through the entrance gate and cross the footbridge to the castleknock side. However, that entrance gate is often locked shut outside of the rush hours. Thus, to answer your question, NO, there is not ALWAYS a means of crossing the tracks once the gates are down, only SOMETIMES :)

[ThomasJ]

You cannot enter through the have on the Coolmine side if the ticket office is open.