View Full Version : [article] Iarnrod Eireann urged to reopen tunnel
Mark Gleeson
22-03-2007, 13:10
Needless to say this all started because Platfrom 11 made the d connector presentation
Iarnrod Eireann urged to reopen tunnel
Tim O'Brien
Iarnrod Eireann has reneged on a promise to reopen Dublin's Phoenix Park Tunnel to passenger services from Kildare to the new Docklands station in the financial services centre.
The twin-track route from west of Heuston station passes under the Wellington Monument, and the Garda Depot before emerging near the North Circular Road and serving Cabra, Glasnevin, and Phibsboro on its way to the docklands.
A spur runs into Connolly Station providing access for trains to Tara and Pearse stations. Iarnrod Eireann had proposed to reopen passenger services on the route as part ofit plans to integrate city centre stations.
Former managing director of Iarnrod Eireann ]oe Meagher told the Oireachtas Committee on Transport as far back as early 2004 that passenger services would resume following the opening of Docklands station.
However, Minister for Transport Martin Cullen who recently travelled the route with larnrod Eireann executives said he had been told the route was now considered secondary to the proposed Heuston, Pearse, Docklands interconnector which is not due until 2015.
While Mr Meagher had initially proposed to run services as early as 2006, Mr Cullen said he was now being told the route was longer than the interconnector and that capacity was still an issue in relation to accessing Connolly Station and the new station in the Docklands.
A spokeswoman for Iarnrod Eireann confirmed the company view that the link was Iess desirable than the route through Pearse Station.
But the campaign group Platform 11 said the issues was never supposed to be a choice between the Phoenix Park tunnel or the Heuston/Pearse route.
Labour Party spokeswoman on transport Roisin Shortall called on Iarnrod Eireann to resolve the issue and to immediately open the route to passengers "as promised".
Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell also said the route should be opened in the short term as the other interconnector was not due until 2015.
© Irish Times 2007
And the evidence
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20040225.xml&Node=11&Page=5
Mr. Meagher: I will try to take the questions raised, and if I leave
anything out committee members can come back to me. The first related
to the Phoenix Park tunnel, and perhaps I did not explain myself well.
We certainly intend to use the Phoenix Park tunnel in the short term
to bring trains from the Kildare-Newbridge area into Spencer Dock
because there is a demand for that
Derek Wheeler
22-03-2007, 19:53
Note to Irish Rail.....
IT WON'T GO AWAY YOU KNOW!
It's amazing how the Park Tunnel was hidden away to such an extent that it was almost an urban legend!!
Now that everyone knows about it they'll be hounded into using it.
Why are they so afraid of it?
Is there a big scary monster living down there?
Derek Wheeler
23-03-2007, 00:03
I will never rest until I see it used as part of an integrated rail plan.
Facts as things stand now.
1. It can be used for Kildare line services on Sundays. (an IE manager told me at a public meeting last year that this would confuse passengers! A division of services is currently operating on the Maynooth line. Oopps I forgot, that suits them.)
2. It could have been used to route Kildare services to Docklands. IE promised this as per the info we gave to the Irish Times. P11 is determined to get answers as to why this didn't happen.
3. New stations should be provided in the areas of Blackhorse ave, Cabra and Phisboro.
4. If the interconnector is actually built, the PPT route allows these new stations to connect with the interconnector and metro. We open up huge areas of the north city to rail transport. Commuter services from the Kildare line and beyond can be divided between interconnector and PPT. Everybody wins. Integration would be vastly improved.
5. Both the SRR, PFC and Transport 21 have ignored the vast potential of the route. P11 continue to be the only transport body that recognises the merits of using this route.
6. The key to its success (Spencer Dock) has been compromised by CIE. It can be trully said that they don't appear to give a damn about communities along the PPT line. It will continue to be a missing link and may well haunt us long after the current crop of P11 people have departed.
Personally, this piece of infrastructure continues to niggle at me and Im gobsmacked by the attitude displayed towards it. It will always be a missing link in the apparent grand plan that is T21.
Is it all down to some sort of division of services?
Are Connolly services "not allowed" mix with Heuston services because "that's always been the way."
Is this the same way that you can buy tickets from all the machines on the "Southern & Western" (Heuston) division ticket machines to anywhere except stations that are served from Connolly. (i.e. you can buy Tullamore to any of those dodgy south Wexford Halts but not to Drogheda)
They also seem to run the Galway services as a completely separate entity from the Mayo services which means that the intervals between services is strange. Could this hark back to the fact that some of the services were Midland Great Western and some were Great Southern or something like that.....
enough of the conspiracy theories, just get the thing opened.
Navan Junction
23-03-2007, 08:42
They also seem to run the Galway services as a completely separate entity from the Mayo services which means that the intervals between services is strange. Could this hark back to the fact that some of the services were Midland Great Western and some were Great Southern or something like that.....
They used to have scheduled trains from Galway running through the Phunnel up until the eighties (think it was the eighties) and on Dún Laoighaire (think it was there0
Redsoxfan
23-03-2007, 09:02
Other than capacity issues (are they real?) is there anything else stopping IE opening this route?
clonsilladart
23-03-2007, 10:54
If i may play devils advocate for a minute...... Is there a danger in "politicians minds" it may become a choice between the PPT and the interconnector. Maybe (just maybe) IE are worried about this happening!!!
Maybe the best way of achieving P11's vision of an integrated rail plan involving the PPT, is for the Interconector to come first, then develop the PPT rout.
However, i do appreciate that the life of hundreds of commuters could be made much easier if it the rout was opened right now!!!...... I just don't want it to be at the expense of the interconnector, and a truly integrated system. Some politicians are only to willing to jump on any band wagon to damage T21.
Mark Gleeson
23-03-2007, 11:26
Believe it or not back in the 1900's there was a service from North Wall to Sallins. Most people don't know that there was a previous station in the Docklands, its still there and owned by CIE in fact its where the new Docklands station was designed
Iarnrod Eireann are on record in the early 1990's stating Kildare line trains would serve Connolly, have that in writing
At the same presentation that Joe Meagher promised the Park Tunnel they also gave the interconnector plug. That was evidence before a oireacthas committee
The map which accompanied the Interconnector presentation given to the IEI had the park tunnel route on it
The investment program with the Park Tunnel in it was approved by the DoT back in 2004, again have it in writing
There is solid evidence that post Kildare Route Project 30% of all passengers arriving into Heuston will have no access to public transport to the city, why since the Luas and Bus are incapable of carrying the numbers involved diverting a number of trains via the Park Tunnel resolves this
So what we have is numerous on the record promises, the Park Tunnel route serves a completely different market to the interconnector since it takes in the north city. The cost was zero until IE screwed it up
I presume you mean by
a: not putting in a diamond of some sort at Cross Guns
or
b: changing the track layout just north of docklands so Drumcondra services couldn't get to it.
Mark Gleeson
23-03-2007, 16:09
Glasnevin option is not a starter on capacity
It still appears with some minor property purchases the connection is possible in Docklands
They used to have scheduled trains from Galway running through the Phunnel up until the eighties (think it was the eighties) and on Dún Laoighaire (think it was there0
I have a vague memory of getting on a train in Dun Laoghaire and going to somewhere in Mayo and then getting buses to Knock. a very vague and distant memory. 70s probably. Also probably a special.
There was a scheduled Connolly to Limerick run through the PPT this morning...if the RPSI can do it without affecting scheduled services, how come Irish Rail can't?
Would if effect Capacity that much at rush hour to have 3/4 trains go from Dun Laoire to Kildare?
There must a good number of people drive from their home in Kildare to work in areas south of Pearse as there's no single form of transport to get them there.
Mark Gleeson
11-05-2007, 12:25
No space south of Pearse for any extra trains, its already at its limit, no extra trains to run such a service exist
Would there ever be a point in the future there would be capacity south of Pearse to allow Dun Laoighaire to Kildare via improved signalling rearrange current schedule etc?
Out of curiousity how far a walk is it from the Luas stop at Heuston to the PPT platform?
Colm Donoghue
11-05-2007, 13:20
half a mile or ~800m
half a mile or ~800m
When they used platform 10 during the construction of platforms 6, 7 & 8 they ran buses between it and the main station.
kevin
What do you reckon the time difference would be to say Connolly by PPT versus normal stop at Heuston and Luas to Connolly?
Would be very handy for the airport/ industrial estates around Santry for Kidare passengers if DB could co-ordinate a bus service around the train. That is until Metro comes along and makes life a lot easier again!
Mark Gleeson
11-05-2007, 14:26
There are some ground rules:
1. Any service which does use the tunnel, must be in addition to those currently scheduled
Why, as not to negatively effect those happy with Heuston, we will call them the Jervisites not forgetting those looking for a intercity connection
2. Any service which does run through the tunnel must operate via the Drumcondra line and serve Drumcondra
Why, rebuilding Glasnevin Junction is too expensive and not worth the little benefit it offers. Stop in Drumcondra enhances access to Croke Park, and north city with excellent bus interchange
3. Any train which operates through the tunnel cannot do so at the price of the cancellation of a service elsewhere.
Why, removal of an established and busy service isn't in the passenger interest
4. The only realistic option is Docklands
Why, space in Connolly doesn't exist at peak times.
paddyb180285
11-05-2007, 15:17
508
509
Here is an interesting picture of an A39 hauled train at Dalkey(my local station) coming from Hueston.It is on route to Wicklow as it can be seen in the next picture pulling up at Kilcoole at a later stage.
The point I'm trying to make is that IE could operate extra services from the likes of Galway/Athlone to Gorey/Rosslare via the Phoenix Park Tunnel (Phunnel as one of you called it).Assuming it called at all stations to Hueston it could then call at Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Rd, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray and all stations to Gorey.Therefore they would act as EXTRA Galway services, Dublin Express Services and Gorey bound services to the lack thereof, benefitting a huge percentage of people.
The Mark IV Intercity services and 22000 Intercity services are supposed to be replacing their predecessors.Instead they could put the old units through refurbishment/maintenance like the LHB DART stock so that the spare units could be used on lines where there is still a lack of service. The idea of this would be to balance the amount of services throughout the network.
The interconnector could be used aswel as the Phoenix Park Tunnel acting like an M50 for train services thereby forming an irregular circular line around the city.There is a site which covers this philosophy in greater detail and here is the URL:"http://www.darganproject.com/index_files/Page322.htm". Here are a few Ideas: (Galway-Heuston-Interconnector-Belfast), (Galway-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Rosslare), (Rosslare-Connolly-Belfast), (Cork-Heuston-Interconnector-Sligo), (Cork-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Gorey). The possibilities are endless.
dowlingm
11-05-2007, 16:49
Mark G - where would the bottleneck be to determine the maximum number of services, assuming enough rolling stock? Space at Docklands for instance, or the Kildare approaches to Heuston, or somewhere else?
Mark Gleeson
11-05-2007, 17:04
A lot has changed since 1999 a hell of a lot of extra trains running
The line south of Pearse is running at close to capacity, its really tight and lucky to see a single green signal on the way in from Dun Laoghaire on a bad morning. Level crossings restrict any increase. Terminating in Dun Laoghaire comes with a number of problems, there is only one terminal platform so you got to get in and get out before the next train and in doing so cross oncoming trains. Bray is a mess so don't even think about there
When the third platform in Grand Canal Dock is re-signaled the current northbound line will become a terminus solving a lot of problems currently at Pearse
Currently isn't any room on the approach to Heuston for extra trains until the 4 track happens
The simplest solution is to do a simple piece of trackwork in Docklands and running Kildare local trains to Docklands is consistent with the post interconnector service and it was promised. There is free capacity to run that could manage 3 to 4 trains an hour. Those trains would start from the new turnback platfrom in Hazelhatch
Pearse Kildare after 9pm and all day Sunday is realistic and a reasonable approach
paddyb wrote
Here is an interesting picture of an A39 hauled train at Dalkey(my local station) coming from Hueston.It is on route to Wicklow as it can be seen in the next picture pulling up at Kilcoole at a later stage.
The point I'm trying to make is that IE could operate extra services from the likes of Galway/Athlone to Gorey/Rosslare via the Phoenix Park Tunnel (Phunnel as one of you called it).Assuming it called at all stations to Hueston it could then call at Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Rd, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray and all stations to Gorey.Therefore they would act as EXTRA Galway services, Dublin Express Services and Gorey bound services to the lack thereof, benefitting a huge percentage of people.
The Mark IV Intercity services and 22000 Intercity services are supposed to be replacing their predecessors.Instead they could put the old units through refurbishment/maintenance like the LHB DART stock so that the spare units could be used on lines where there is still a lack of service. The idea of this would be to balance the amount of services throughout the network.
The interconnector could be used aswel as the Phoenix Park Tunnel acting like an M50 for train services thereby forming an irregular circular line around the city.There is a site which covers this philosophy in greater detail and here is the URL:"http://www.darganproject.com/index_files/Page322.htm". Here are a few Ideas: (Galway-Heuston-Interconnector-Belfast), (Galway-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Rosslare), (Rosslare-Connolly-Belfast), (Cork-Heuston-Interconnector-Sligo), (Cork-Heuston-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Connolly-Gorey). The possibilities are endless.
but surely with Greystones DART in place and Rosslare track being one track this is already impossible. in anyway i personally think its a waste of a set to run for 6 or 7 hours meaning it would only be able to complete 1 run in and possibly one run back.
MarkG is right that if We can't get extra maynooth or drogheda services into connolly it will be impossible to get Kildare services in. whatwork would have to be done to get kildare services to docklands. would it cost much.
It is a pity though about Dun Laoghaire platform 3. this would have been great for comuter services. out of interest does the same signal sequence that runs connolly-pearse run all the way to bray making it easy to run more Maynooth and Drogheda services to dun laoghaire
Agree you could get carried away with all sorts of combinations once the PPT is open and you have to look at route capacity and rolling stock limitations.
Those things aside looking at having a service north to south that runs via the 3 biggest cities on the island ie Belfast - Dublin - Cork would surely benefit people. I know a good number of students from Munster study north of border and have to make the trip via bus which can take 7 hours+.
What time would such a direct train service take? 4 hours with stops at say
Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda, Connolly, Drumcondra, Heuston, Portloais, Thurles, Cork.
Would there be interest in twice daily service?
What we can do is put a number on the number of people who fly Cork-Belfast, which was 3,380 in March. That's on a route that's twice daily on weekdays and once daily on weekends, so it works out at around 68 people each way per day on weekdays.
That's not a great number and when you consider that the plane will be a lot faster and that the price will be similar, you wouldn't attract too many over.
Obviously, the advantage the train has is that it can also pick up in Mallow, Limerick Junction, Thurles or Port Laoise, none of which have an air service to Belfast. Similarly, it would offer a service from Cork to Drogheda and Dundalk.
If you choose to look at it as two separate services from Cork to Dublin and Dublin to Belfast, where through passengers have the option of staying on the train if they want it makes more sense. Anyone who has caught the train from Amsterdam to Paris will have realised that 90% of passengers get off the train in Brussels to be replaced by a similar number of new faces. However, those people who want to travel through still get the choice. You would probably get a similar thing in Dublin, but if it helps to fill the train, great.
paddyb180285
14-05-2007, 15:07
Gary,there is one major problem in that journey suggestion.If the train is travelling southbound,then to get to Drumcondra would mean reversing northbound.I know that you mentioned Connolly.However, the journey would be quite a messy one.If you were to travel south to get to Cork from Newry then the interconnector would be you best bet.However,if you were to travel from Bray or Gorey to Cork/Galway than using the Phoenix Park Tunnel would be your best bet.Therefore,there is an "en route",tidy and more seamless approach to the journey.It is the reversing part that would make the journey messy.The interconnector would be one half of the circle while the Phoenix Park Tunnel is the other half.
Colm Donoghue
15-05-2007, 07:37
reversing 's not a problem with railcars, enterprise or CDE's though.
Happens all day every day.
Yea didn't think the reversing would be too much an issue. As for comparing to flight passenger numbers on the route, not sure if this if the best comparsion. As you say the train makes several stops on route and you have the great alternatives of the car and bus that people would also take.
What I was thinking was you replace a Cork - Heuston and a Connolly to Belfast service with one direct service via PPT. Know that means re-giging timetables etc but am sure its still manageable.
Am sure in this car dependent era there's a number of people avoid the public transport option because of the hassle of 2 trains, a tram, some waiting around in Dublin and all that while carrying luggage around.
I know you could get carried away with all sorts of crazy permutations of routes (like cork - sligo) via ppt but here we're talking about linking the island's three major cities and the large towns on route. And it follows the same route of the road that is no doubt taken by many via car.
Mark Gleeson
15-05-2007, 09:17
It would be even being optimistic 4:40 Cork Belfast. and the return fare is 87.90, air competition will under cut that easily and the time is not attractive, competitive compared to road given the M50 at the moment and totally hammers the bus. When Belfast Dublin goes hourly it will be 5:50 ish end to end with changes still 2 hours faster than the bus. Of course this was tried in the mid 1950's and disappeared quickly afterwards.
You would need a common fleet of trains as well. The question is how reliable it could be having to operate through Heuston and Connolly, that means a spare train on standby at all times. This is rather fanciful given both Dublin Belfast and Dublin Cork are a shambles in reliability terms.
The issue here is it would cause total confusion for someone going to say Thurles Cork Mallow etc, do I go to Connolly or Heuston where will I get a seat, you can get round that by calling in Heuston P10 which would in turn inconvenience anyone in Heuston
Dublin Cork carries about 8 times more than Dublin Belfast. I'd see the demand as suburb to suburb so Midleton Cork Heuston Balbriggan will be do able very quickly post T21
Colm Moore
19-05-2007, 00:17
What we can do is put a number on the number of people who fly Cork-Belfast, which was 3,380 in March. That's on a route that's twice daily on weekdays and once daily on weekends, so it works out at around 68 people each way per day on weekdays.
That's not a great number and when you consider that the plane will be a lot faster and that the price will be similar, you wouldn't attract too many over.My brother does Cork-Belfast, sometimes train, sometimes plane. I think it would be useful if a through service operated (change drivers and ends at Connolly). Imagine Cobh-Derry/Antrim - you are talking 4 or 5 changes and all the premutations of problems and missed connections that can happen.
The other brother sometimes flies Cork-Dublin hires a car and drives to Dundalk, Craigavon, etc.
Obviously, the advantage the train has is that it can also pick up in Mallow, Limerick Junction, Thurles or Port Laoise, none of which have an air service to Belfast. Similarly, it would offer a service from Cork to Drogheda and Dundalk.Cork-Drogheda wouldn't be a priority, although Cork-Drogheda with only one change would become possible. I think Cork-Limerick Junction-Portarlington (for Galway/Mayo)-Connolly (no Heuston)-Dundalk*-Newry*-Belfast keeps stops to a minimum while maximising connections.
* Possibly Newry only when Northbound and Dundalk only when Southbound, feeding of the local services.The issue here is it would cause total confusion for someone going to say Thurles Cork Mallow etc, do I go to Connolly or Heuston where will I get a seat, you can get round that by calling in Heuston P10 which would in turn inconvenience anyone in HeustonYou could have the CDB trains operate as extras, on top of existing services. ;)
One way Cork-Belfast could be done is like this:
PPT reopened.
Cork-Dublin trains rerouted to Connolly.
Dublin-Belfast trains rescheduled to meet with Cork trains in the other direction, i.e. Dublin-Belfast train scheduled to depart 5 minutes after the arrival of an inbound Cork train, and vice-versa.
This not only simplifies things for Cork-Belfast passengers, but also opens the way for wider travel patterns like Mallow-Dundalk, Limerick-Newry etc.
This could be followed up with some new platforms at Heuston to allow PPT trains to stop at Heuston and two sets of travelators (sorry if this sounds too Metrobestish)
One at Connolly carring passengers down to Spencer Dock (Interconnector) station, and another wherever Park Tunnel routed trains can be stopped, to the Heuston Interconnector station.
One way Cork-Belfast could be done is like this:
PPT reopened.
Cork-Dublin trains rerouted to Connolly.
Dublin-Belfast trains rescheduled to meet with Cork trains in the other direction, i.e. Dublin-Belfast train scheduled to depart 5 minutes after the arrival of an inbound Cork train, and vice-versa.
This not only simplifies things for Cork-Belfast passengers, but also opens the way for wider travel patterns like Mallow-Dundalk, Limerick-Newry etc.
This could be followed up with some new platforms at Heuston to allow PPT trains to stop at Heuston and two sets of travelators (sorry if this sounds too Metrobestish)
One at Connolly carring passengers down to Spencer Dock (Interconnector) station, and another wherever Park Tunnel routed trains can be stopped, to the Heuston Interconnector station.
Hey Sean, would that not be just the same thing as having one train if you had the two trains to meet at the same time. What happens if the Belfast one is delayed. I can see the point about having too many stops on a Belfast - Cork, would make the Trans Siberian look like a commuter train.
If the travelator worked for Heuston be a good idea, not sure about docklands though, there's a fair distance from Connolly to Docklands and as the crow flies it via housing estates. Maybe a walkway alongside the track out of docklands and then up towards the back of connolly might work.
Hey Sean, would that not be just the same thing as having one train if you had the two trains to meet at the same time.No, unless the trainsets were homogenised (sp?) like CDE trainsets covering both legs, otherwise you'd have an hour-and-a-halfly service with Enterprise DDs in Cork and CDEs in Belfast, and given the unique application and problems of both, it would just be too Laurel-and-Hardy-ish
[QUOTE]What happens if the Belfast one is delayed.Depends on how long the delay is - ideally the staff in Connolly would have a new ETA. Depending on how much the delay was, the outbound train would either be held for a few minutes, or the passengers would wait for the next train (Cork trains run hourly now)
If the travelator worked for Heuston be a good idea, not sure about docklands though, there's a fair distance from Connolly to Docklands and as the crow flies it via housing estates. Maybe a walkway alongside the track out of docklands and then up towards the back of connolly might work.Just a bit of Crayons on Maps from me, I'm afraid.
One way Cork-Belfast could be done is like this:
I would be interested to know what kind of numbers would travel Cork-Belfast-Cork. I cant see it being high enough to warrent a change in the current set up. It there was a market for it id imagine Ryanair would have put planes on the route by now.
They used to have scheduled trains from Galway running through the Phunnel up until the eighties (think it was the eighties) and on Dún Laoighaire (think it was there0
Limerick also used to have direct servcies to Dun Laoghaire.
I would be interested to know what kind of numbers would travel Cork-Belfast-Cork. I cant see it being high enough to warrent a change in the current set up. It there was a market for it id imagine Ryanair would have put planes on the route by now.
I would say what didn't work in the 80's isn't a valid reasoning by IE today because of change population spread and traffic gridlock etc.
Would think there is a market for it especially considering all the towns in between and amount of routes it would open up Drogheda - Portloais, Dundalk - Thurles. A train journey on one of these routes now would put anyone off using rail, 2 trains 1 tram and a whole lot of stress.
Having said that Bus Eireann have never ventured now this route of a single route so maybe its not that viable.
Prof_Vanderjuice
22-05-2007, 17:35
I would say what didn't work in the 80's isn't a valid reasoning by IE today because of change population spread and traffic gridlock etc.
Would think there is a market for it especially considering all the towns in between and amount of routes it would open up Drogheda - Portloais, Dundalk - Thurles. A train journey on one of these routes now would put anyone off using rail, 2 trains 1 tram and a whole lot of stress.
Having said that Bus Eireann have never ventured now this route of a single route so maybe its not that viable.
Actually I think BÉ's approach is to encourage people to do journeys like this via its hub in Athlone. However, the services out of Athlone aren't all that frequent - only 1-4 buses a day.
I don't see why Cork-Belfast wouldn't work.
The service wouldn't only be for Cork to Belfast passengers, for example people travelling Kildare -Drogheda or Dundalk-Limerick can avail of the service as well as the Cork-Dublin and Dublin Belfast passengers who will also use it.
Most Long Distance trains I use (outside Ireland) carry very few passengers from Terminus to Terminus but still provide a valuable service with High usage as there is a high turnover of passengers travelling shorter legs.
While were at it what about a night train Cork-Dublin-Belfast and vice-versa during months with no R's:D
Colm Moore
24-05-2007, 23:18
While were at it what about a night train Cork-Dublin-Belfast and vice-versa during months with no R's:DWhy then and not the rest of the year?
Colm Donoghue
25-05-2007, 07:43
ccos,
The interconnector will provide most of this, with no reduction of services to the existing users of services out of Connolly.
It there was a market for it id imagine Ryanair would have put planes on the route by now.
I believe Aer Arann already have a Cork-Belfast (City Airport) service. Don't forget the whole hassle issue with taking the plane over (relatively) short distances. Belfast international airport, for example, is quite a ways from Belfast city centre. Add to that the hassle of airport check-in and security.
Typical example is London-Paris. Flying from one to the other is usually a pain, whereas Eurotunnel is like a walk in the park.
Of course, Eurotunnel uses a TGV type train on a high speed rail.
In any case, my opinion is that a Cork-Belfast link should be the least of our worries. More important things such as efficient ticket integration, double/triple/quadruple-tracking of bottle necks, local commuter networks (Galway, Cork), Interconnector, customer service improvement and so on, are needed first. If these get sorted out, then putting together a Cork-Belfast link will seem like child's play.
I don't see why Cork-Belfast wouldn't work.
The service wouldn't only be for Cork to Belfast passengers, for example people travelling Kildare -Drogheda or Dundalk-Limerick can avail of the service as well as the Cork-Dublin and Dublin Belfast passengers who will also use it.
Most Long Distance trains I use (outside Ireland) carry very few passengers from Terminus to Terminus but still provide a valuable service with High usage as there is a high turnover of passengers travelling shorter legs.
While were at it what about a night train Cork-Dublin-Belfast and vice-versa during months with no R's:D
Obviously. Think of all those trains in Eastern Europe, like Budapest-Bratislava-Prague-Berlin. It allows long journies while still catering for intermediate ones too. Though there are far more serious problems to deal with first.
I assume the Greens are in favour of the reopening of the PP Tunnel? If so and they get transport portfolio what sort of timeline do you think it would take to go ahead.
Also curious what sort of journey time would it take to go from Heuston to Connolly via PPT? Will it save people say on the Kildare route much time?
Thomas J Stamp
13-06-2007, 11:43
I assume the Greens are in favour of the reopening of the PP Tunnel? If so and they get transport portfolio what sort of timeline do you think it would take to go ahead.
Also curious what sort of journey time would it take to go from Heuston to Connolly via PPT? Will it save people say on the Kildare route much time?
Timeline: it's being used right now so timeline is irrelevent.
How long does it take? Depends on what way they do it. Ideally the trains would stop at platform 11 at heuston (thats where we got the name from) and go up to Connolly. Perhaps 20 mins. Depends if they want to put in a station or two - like they planned over two decades ago - along the way and it depends on getting the slots correct.
To give a concrete example up till a few years ago the last Limerick to Dublin train on Sundays went to Connolly, but it pulled into huston first, everyone got off, it pulled out backwards by another loco - then went to connolly and this all took an hour. Proved it can be done.
IE know it can be done, we know it can be done. Problem is, a new face in the DoT will have to know it can be done as well, becasue IE will tell that new face that it cannot be done.
Itll only work for commuter trains not intercitys and I think that platform is actually P10. The irony behind the name being that it is only one platform and that another wasnt built on the other side.
I'm guessing what I mean by timeline is putting all the pieces of the jigsaw together like organising
1) slots for Kildare Trains to enter Connolly at Peak Times/ timetable changes
2) resourses to cover such a service
3) any other issues union etc that may arise.
20 mins sounds fair alternative to hopping off train, getting on Luas.
Interesting though just read the green manifesto summary and no mention of the tunnel in it.
Thomas J Stamp
13-06-2007, 13:14
Itll only work for commuter trains not intercitys and I think that platform is actually P10. The irony behind the name being that it is only one platform and that another wasnt built on the other side.
Yes, they will have to build Platform 11 in order to make the thing work.
Is that how Platform11 got its name, one of the points being that the Phoenix Park Tunnel is not used, and to get full use out of it, IE will have to build PLatform11 at Islandbridge for the Phoenix Park Tunnel?
Mark Gleeson
13-06-2007, 14:58
Yes
Would piss them off no end if we succeeded
Of course some smart person will now tell me it should be called platform 9, Heuston already has a platform 9, it just doesn't have a platform, its the siding next to P8
Mark you are always thinking one step ahead. That is exactly what i was going to ask. Boy is my face red! Regarding the interconnector surely it will only start once the extra rolling stock is there. Would the 22000 that will be allocated to carlow services be sufficient for that. Also i hope that this has no impact on Maynooth services going via drumcondra. The station has been in itself a success story. The number of passengers that use it. Students and gaelic sports fans as well as ordinary passengers. It would be stupid to divert trains from such as successful station
Green Government Manifesto seems to have no mention of a possible P11 or anything related to the Phoneix Park Tunnel. How did they miss that one!
Their preference was to fast track the interconnector was mentioned a number of times pre election. I think what they have said is set up the authority to ensure the projects involved are implemented within time and budget.
In any case, my opinion is that a Cork-Belfast link should be the least of our worries. More important things such as efficient ticket integration, double/triple/quadruple-tracking of bottle necks, local commuter networks (Galway, Cork), Interconnector, customer service improvement and so on, are needed first. If these get sorted out, then putting together a Cork-Belfast link will seem like child's play.True, but Cork-Belfast 1-change could be done in the next timetable. By bringing Cork-Dublin trains to Connolly and rescheduling the Enterprise to meet them.
"But Connolly is full :mad: " one can hear IE cry. Well that's because everything that goes into Connolly from the West uses the Drumcondra line often to cross the mainline to the terminal platforms, leaving a fast, direct, twin track Midland line unused and P7 underutilised.
My view, which I've stated frequently, is that the approaches to Connolly, particularly from the West, are done in a very inefficient way. I believe this inefficiency reduces Connolly's capacity significantly. IE should have a plan to divide and harmonised Connolly access paths.
Their preference was to fast track the interconnector was mentioned a number of times pre election. I think what they have said is set up the authority to ensure the projects involved are implemented within time and budget.
Even with fasttracking its going to take a couple of years of consulations, possible plannings issues etc and all that depending on the money being available.
The PPT could be serving trains to Connolly in a couple of months if not sooner taking more cars off the road.
True, but Cork-Belfast 1-change could be done in the next timetable. By bringing Cork-Dublin trains to Connolly and rescheduling the Enterprise to meet them.
"But Connolly is full :mad: " one can hear IE cry. Well that's because everything that goes into Connolly from the West uses the Drumcondra line often to cross the mainline to the terminal platforms, leaving a fast, direct, twin track Midland line unused and P7 underutilised.
My view, which I've stated frequently, is that the approaches to Connolly, particularly from the West, are done in a very inefficient way. I believe this inefficiency reduces Connolly's capacity significantly. IE should have a plan to divide and harmonise Connolly access paths.
divide and conquer more like. if connolly trains coming from the north terminated at the same time as those coming from the west (in and onto platform 5 say) would this not free slots? or the less favourable option of enterprise trains terminating just as rosslare trains leave from 5. would this not only require one slot?
Derek Wheeler
16-06-2007, 20:01
PPT has a role to play irrespective of the interconnector.
1. It could've allowed some Kildare line trains into Docklands.
2. Post interconnector it could've allowed some outer suburban services into Connolly/Pearse.
3. Its route runs through huge housing areas. Stations could be provided at Blackhorse Avenue, Cabra x 2 and Phibsboro.
4. Even local commuter services could be provided.
It was planned for use on the original Kildare commuter project, running from Clondalkin to Pearse. Kildare politicians (namely Labour) got their mits on it and due to the increased pressure for Maynooth services and the extension from Clondalkin to Kildare town, the tunnel idea was killed off.
Local lobbying does nothing for the bigger picture. In fact it distorts it.
Regarding the suggestions on running intercity services through the interconnector...how is this possible seeing as its been stated that only electric powered railcars may use the tunnel??
PS. How come such a restriction will apply to the interconnector when it clearly doesnt apply to the PPT??
James Shields
24-06-2007, 02:24
Personally, I don't think running IC trains through the Interconnector would be practical from an operational viewpoint, since the whole point of the KRP is to give DART a fully segregated line through the city. If IC trains were to use it, they would have to be electrified.
There's no problem for diesel (and let's not forget, it was built for steam trains) using the PPT, as it is a much shorter tunnel, and trains do not stop at stations within the tunnel.
I believe it would be possible to build an Interconnector that could take diesel trains, but it would have to have a lot more ventilation. However, if there is a need to run trains between the Heuston and Connolly networks (for example, a Cork-Belfast service), these should use the Park tunnel.
Colm Moore
25-06-2007, 13:14
The Interconnector will be a much longer tunnel and would likely need ventilation at intermediate points.
Running IC trains through the interconnector would only benefit a small % of train users. Who travels Belfast to Cork direct regularly?
Thomas J Stamp
26-06-2007, 09:11
There are those who will argue that once such a service is provided, by a Irish Rail Manager called Mr. Costner, that previously unheard of hoards of passengers will suddenly crawl out of the woodwork demanding a place and that these trains will resemble something from Calcutta.
This is, of course, bull. It is, curiously, the opposite side of the same coin we find by the enthusiasts... this time though its high speed electric trains from Belfast to Dublin. I'm not against electrification of the entire network but I don't have the facts to tell me if we have the generating capacity for it or not. What I am reasonably certain of is that there is nearly a zero demand for a train from Dublin to Cork outside of fantasy island.
Off topic but personally I would love to see a direct Dublin to Derry route opened up. Dublin, Porterstown, Navan, Monaghan, Omagh and Derry. New alignment from Navan and double track all the way.
Mark Gleeson
26-06-2007, 09:51
I'll ban you for that, men in white coats en route to your gaff to pick you up :D
ONE ISLAND ONE RAILWAY!
Tiocfaidh ár Iarnród!
James Shields
26-06-2007, 23:25
And let's not forget the extension of the WRC to Donegal and on up to Derry...
Back in the real world, I think the Interconnector has to be kept free for its intended purpose, high frequency cross city DART services. Trying to feed intercity services will lead to the same problems we have on the Maynooth and Northern lines now, where trying to fit Intercity trains into the mix leads to big gaps in the timetable.
If there was a need for a service like Cork-Belfast, it could easily be done through the Park tunnel by driving into one of the terminating platforms and have the driver change ends. As the service would almost certainly be run by push-pull or DMU stock, this could be done in less time than it takes the vast majority of passengers who aren't travelling through to disembark.
I think the number of passengers who would be travelling through from Cork to Belfast would be very small, but I imagine there would be a lot of Cork passengers who would find it useful to go to Connolly ranter than Heuston.
This sort of service might be better for a Kildare-Drogheda commuter service, though, since DART is only planned for Hazlehatch-Balbriggan.
Derek Wheeler
26-06-2007, 23:28
Off topic but personally I would love to see a direct Dublin to Derry route opened up. Dublin, Porterstown, Navan, Monaghan, Omagh and Derry. New alignment from Navan and double track all the way.
Engineers.:rolleyes:
Spend more time on the chicks, cars and booze. Trust me, its better than here.
Is the PPT single or double tracked?
Double all the way from Platform 10 in Heuston to Glasnevin Junction.
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