LUAS Ticket machines

[CSL]

Is it me, or is there a small baboon inside each LUAS ticket machine , that checks each coin one by one for provenance ?

I find it the only possible reason for having the slowest possible ticket printing time.

Perhaps alternatively RPA have added a small delay to pressurize regular passengers into buying smartcards.

[Mark Gleeson]

The machines are by Scheidt & Bachmann and the exact same as the ones IE have. These guys are a major international player. CIE ordered the Luas machines in the days before the RPA

I don't find the machines unduly slow, the original software wasn't terribly easy to work out and they modified that to speed it up. Only tip is to let gravity takes it course don't fire the coins in with force. There is one trick on the Luas machines you can cancel out of a transaction even with the money put in if you are quick there is a tiny delay where it work

The big question is why the ticket machine can't issue a ticket a suburban rail destination

Its 15 cent a journey cheaper by smart card now if you don't travel often its worth looking at

[Colm Donoghue]

why can't the machine give change at the same time as printing tickets though?
whats the story with pensioner on the luas? does free travel apply?

[Mark Gleeson]

The standard Dept of Social Welfare free travel applies on Luas

There is some logic in the way the system works, afterall if ticket printing fails it has to give you all the money back

A small if hidden feature is the system can issue pre encoded tickets that sounds technical but it can as such sell in theory smart cards, as can IE's

[Red Alert]

I guess it wouldn't be too much hassle to change the following sequence:

Print Ticket > "Thank You, Please take your ticket and your change" > Dispense Change

to being

Print Ticket + Dispense Change, if ticket printed ok then continue, otherwise top up change amount to tendered amount. Then say "thank you" or not. This is of course assuming that in general it will end up printing the ticket.

[Mark]

The RPA TVMs are still lacking the front screen short cuts that IE have.

[Colm Donoghue]

the fact you can't buy a single and return ticket in the same transaction meaning you may not be over the CC/banknote threshold is annoying too.

[sean]

What annoys me about Luas ticketing (not so much the machines as the policy behind them) is that when you want to buy a day-pass, you have to buy for all zones, even if you're just going to be going around or near the city centre.

[Red Alert]

i'd suspect that's probably due to the different zone and fare structures used by DB and Luas. It would be hard for the uninitiated to figure out.

[Oisin88]

What credit cards work in the luas machines?

I have to use cash when topping up my luas smart card. None of the machines will accept my chip and pin visa card or my no chip and pin american express. I try every few months when the credit runs out.:eek:

[MrX]

I cannot understand why these machines, both RPA and IE are not chip and pin yet.
It seems crazy!

[Mark Gleeson]

They don't have to be

[Oisin88]

I cannot understand why these machines, both RPA and IE are not chip and pin yet.
It seems crazy!
Is this why my visa doesn't work?
They don't have to be
Does this mean it will work on 17th March?

What about the Amex: it has no chip.

also
Subject: Thank you for your enquiry
From: "Luas Customercare" <LuasCustomercare@veolia-transport.ie>
To: Oisin <oisin88@>
Subject: Thank you for your enquiry
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:32:22 -0000

This is an automatically generated message.

Your mail has been received and will be dealt with in due course
nothing yet after 6 days

[Mark Gleeson]

My understanding is that a retailer cannot offer the option of signing after March 17th

Does not seem to effect situations where the card is just swiped

[Oisin88]

yes, but does that mean that anybody with a chip in their card can't use the machine?

[Colm Donoghue]

My understanding is that a retailer cannot offer the option of signing after March 17th

Does not seem to effect situations where the card is just swiped

My understanding is the retailer assumes the risk of fraud after St Patrick's Day if the pin is not used to verify the transaction.

So you may still be able to use the card at the retailer's discretion.

If the card is verified by pin, the banks or customers take the risk, not sure exactly which.

[clonsilladart]

If the card is verified by pin, the banks or customers take the risk, not sure exactly which.

It's the customer that takes the risk..... The implementation of Chip & Pin is solely to move the responsibility from the banks/retailers onto the customers. If anyone uses your pin for a transaction, you are liable. It will only be through acts of "good will" that the banks will pick up the tab (and we know how much good will the banks have). Take Care Of Your Pin

Back onto topic. Mark is correct. Any "swipe" only transactions (ie IE Ticket m/c's, Luas Ticket m/c's, car parks payment m/c's, etc) do not need a Pin (same as the they currently don't need a signature).

[Oisin88]

Back onto topic. Mark is correct. Any "swipe" only transactions (ie IE Ticket m/c's, Luas Ticket m/c's, car parks payment m/c's, etc) do not need a Pin (same as the they currently don't need a signature).

well then how come my f****ng cards don't work, and why wont Luas customer services tell me why?

[Colm Donoghue]

well then how come my f****ng cards don't work, and why wont Luas customer services tell me why?

read that sentence again and the answer should become clear...

the people who won't tell you why your card won't work won't take your card....

[clonsilladart]

well then how come my f****ng cards don't work, and why wont Luas customer services tell me why?

My BOI Visa Chip n' Pin Card works find, and I've seen loads of others using various Mastercards and Visa card working OK.
Not sure about AmEX....lots of restaurants, etc. WW don't even take them (their charges are much higher than visa/mastercard).

You're best path forward is:
1. See if other luas m/c's won't accept your card (Eliminates individual M/C error - assume you've already tried this)
2. See if other card swipe m/c's (IE, Car parks, etc) accept you card (this may show up a faulty magnetic strip on your card.)

Also..... a little bit less of the "F'ing"..... everybody here is trying to help you. Alos if you're dealing with any customer service.... Politeness normally works best!!!!

[Mark Gleeson]

Firstly there is a problem, a known problem

Since Luas and IE TVM's share the same clearing house for CC transactions (Trinitech) and also use identical TVM's the problem is quite widespread

The worst offenders seem to be
Laser cards are a no no with the IE ticket collection system
AIB mastercards seem to be the ones that cause severe pain

[Oisin88]

My BOI Visa Chip n' Pin Card works find, and I've seen loads of others using various Mastercards and Visa card working OK.
and
Firstly there is a problem, a known problem

Since Luas and IE TVM's share the same clearing house for CC transactions (Trinitech) and also use identical TVM's the problem is quite widespread

The worst offenders seem to be
Laser cards are a no no with the IE ticket collection system
AIB mastercards seem to be the ones that cause severe pain
This is what I was waiting for. Info that some other chip and pin cards work but not mine. MBNA have some sort of arrangement with AIB, or at least they used to.

Not sure about AmEX....lots of restaurants, etc. WW don't even take them (their charges are much higher than visa/mastercard).
The American Express Logo is on the machines so you would assume that the card should work.

You're best path forward is:
1. See if other luas m/c's won't accept your card (Eliminates individual M/C error - assume you've already tried this)
2. See if other card swipe m/c's (IE, Car parks, etc) accept you card (this may show up a faulty magnetic strip on your card.)
Assumed right. Two different MBNA chip and pin credit cards have failed to work for me in about 5 different luas machines on the green and red line. It must be a problem with MBNA.

Also..... a little bit less of the "F'ing"..... everybody here is trying to help you. Alos if you're dealing with any customer service.... Politeness normally works best!!!!
The French was introduced in response to the fact that this thread was going in circles. I don't tend to use it when dealing with customer service people. It has had it's desired effect in moving this thread on. Apologies for anyone offended, but the stars were added by me. Could have been covering eck or udge... :)

[Dave]

My AIB Mastercard works fine.

[Oisin88]

I got a reply from Luas:
From: "Luas Customercare" <LuasCustomercare@veolia-transport.ie>
To: Oisín

Good Morning Oisin

I have checked with our ticketing department on this issue. There is no reason why your cards won’t work as all our machines accept credit cards and laser cards.

If you would like us to investigate this further please forward the card numbers to us.

If there is anything else that I can help you with please do not hesitate contacting me.

Yours Sincerely
LUAS Customer Care Teamleader

Customer Care Telephone: 1800 300 604
Veolia Transport Ireland Ltd.Luas Depot, Red Cow Roundabout, Clondalkin Dublin 22, Ireland
Phone +353 1 4614952 Fax +353 1 461 4992
Registered in Ireland No. 354252

I also spoke to MBNA. They are offering to send me a Mastercard instead to give it a go. Has anyone else had success with an MBNA visa card?

[MrX]

Mark,

It's actually a very shortsighted move not to include proper chip and pin support. There is a very serious legal change on March 17th, 2007. There is a shift of liability for fraudulent transactions.

The deal is if a card transaction could have been protected by Chip & PIN but wasn't that the liability for fraud is with whoever hasn't upgraded and not with the bank.

i.e. if CIE or RPA machines accept a skimmed card for payment and that card ought to have been processed with its chip and pin, they will be held fully liable by the bank for the cost of those transactions.

Tips from IPSO
1) You should expect the card company to decline a transaction on a Chip and PIN card when a PIN is not used.
2) If a transaction is declined by the card company and you decide to override the decision and accept the transaction, you may be liable for any fraud loss or chargebacks that result. If you are unsure where the liability lies contact your acquiring bank.

The only exceptions to this are :
1) Chip and Signature card - issued to some disabled people who would have problems with pins. These are chip-based but will cause the terminal to print a signature slip instead of asking for a PIN.
2) Old style magstripe cards


My laser card's wreaking havoc with Tesco automatic checkouts too. Any transaction over about €20 now requires a manual signature. Again, it seems nuts that they've no pin pads yet.

The TVM used by IE has a Pin pad option.

Given the size of some of the transactions that may go thorough those TVMs, particularly Irish Rail, they really ought to be PIN protected.
e.g. I've purchased 4 Cork-Dublin returns.. over 200 quid.

Unverified swiping is really only acceptable for very small transactions.

[Thomas Ralph]

I don't think the Luas or IÉ TVMs have the capacity to support Chip and PIN. The transactions behave more or less as Cardholder Not Present (and the merchant will be liable for any fraudulent card use).

I'm reminded of someone who used stolen cards and such machines (but principally Tesco auto checkouts) to great effect, until he got a great two years in jail...

On a side point my Halifax Visa Debit card takes anything between two and eight swipes to buy a train ticket. Most of the time it just doesn't read. And it's a nearly new card (issued in July) so there isn't really any likelihood that the stripe's worn already.

[CSL]

My NIB Laser card works fine in the IE machines in Heuston; very fast indeed.

[Colm Moore]

On a side point my Halifax Visa Debit card takes anything between two and eight swipes to buy a train ticket. Most of the time it just doesn't read. And it's a nearly new card (issued in July) so there isn't really any likelihood that the stripe's worn already.How clean is the card / machine?

[James Shields]

I don't think the Luas or IÉ TVMs have the capacity to support Chip and PIN. The transactions behave more or less as Cardholder Not Present (and the merchant will be liable for any fraudulent card use).

In the UK now almost all railway and tube TVMs have a chip-and-pin facility. Usually there is a small keypad and LED display to the side of the main screen, so I suspect it was an add-on to the original machine. The main screen displays "now enter your pin" and seems to freeze while you deal with the keypad, but it seems to cope reasonably well even if it's a little bit clunky. Chip-and-pin has been known about for years, so it would be hard to believe that the makers of the IE and Luas machines aren't prepared for it.

[Thomas Ralph]

How clean is the card / machine?

Card is fine, don't know about the machine.

[Thomas Ralph]

In the UK now almost all railway and tube TVMs have a chip-and-pin facility. Usually there is a small keypad and LED display to the side of the main screen, so I suspect it was an add-on to the original machine. The main screen displays "now enter your pin" and seems to freeze while you deal with the keypad, but it seems to cope reasonably well even if it's a little bit clunky. Chip-and-pin has been known about for years, so it would be hard to believe that the makers of the IE and Luas machines aren't prepared for it.

Yeah, they have the same in the Netherlands (although don't get me started about Dutch trains, they are more frequent but far more irksome than ours). They also have a surcharge for paying using banknotes.

[CSL]

I've been using the ticket machines daily for the last month at Charlemont.

I have to reiterate..

These machines [ and it's nothing to do with Charlemont, all the Luas machines are the same ]

are brutal.

1: 10-15 seconds for a ticket.
2: touch screen requires repeated tapping to register
3: inserting coins quickly just does not work , one will nearly always be rejected.
4: no "most popular ticket"/1-button ticket options always tap,tap,tap. I swear I feel like the raven in one of Poe's books sometimes.

look at the queues at the Green and Sandyford at peak hours. Why RPA don't get better and more machines at either of these locations beggars belief.... those kind of queues can be dangerous.

[Thomas Ralph]

Maybe they want to encourage people to use smartcards.