IE considering new station at Mater and ...

[niallm]

opening phoenix park tunnel!

From I.T.:

Rail station planned to serve Mater hospital site
Martin Wall

Plans are under way to develop a new rail station close to Croke Park to serve the proposed new national children's hospital on the site of the Mater Hospital.

In a letter to Minister for Health Mary Harney last Monday, CIÉ chairman John Lynch said the company was examining the feasibility of developing a new station on the Canal End rail line which could be located between Croke Park and Dorset Street.

He said that such a station could serve the north city, Croke Park, St Patrick's College and Dublin City University as well as the Mater site.

Dr Lynch said that CIÉ was also examining the business case for reopening the existing rail tunnel under the Phoenix Park for commuter and regional services, which could provide connections to the west of the city as well as to the south midlands, west, midwest, southwest and south of the country.

The decision by the Government to develop the new national children's hospital at the Mater site has been criticised by opponents on the grounds that it is inaccessible due to traffic congestion.

However, the Health Service Executive has said that since the decision to opt for the Mater site, the Government has announced plans to develop a new metro station underneath the complex.

Opponents of the site have also argued that most children brought to hospital are taken by car rather than by public transport.

In his letter to the Minister, Dr Lynch said that there was considerable scope to expand rail services in the Drumcondra area in the medium term.

Dr Lynch said that in the context of the current debate on public, patient and employee access to the Mater hospital site, Iarnród Éireann was examining the feasibility of very substantially expanding its service to the Drumcondra and Dorset St areas.

"The existing Drumcondra station is served by six trains per hour, at peak periods. The scope to expand this service level is limited in the short term though off-peak services can be improved if demanded.

"There is, however, very considerable scope to expand this service level in the medium term as the area is served by two separate rail systems with excellent scope for connection to the rest of the country."

Dr Lynch said that in March a new station would open in the Docklands area and that an additional four services an hour would be provided between Clonsilla and Docklands.

"These would not initially serve the Mater hospital site but we are examining the feasibility of developing a new station on the canal end rail line which could be located between Croke Park and Dorset Street," he said.

[Mark Gleeson]

All a dream since we have been told Irish Rail have no interest in doing this

We looked at this, there is only one location that comes even close and its very very difficult

There will be a metro stop 60m away from the only location IE can put a station and another metro stop under the Matter

The Midland line has no use beyond 2015 at this time

Dr Lynch has very little clue about the actual reality in the subsidiary companies, anyone who was at the CDE launch will remember his rather interesting speech

[Colm Moore]

He said that such a station could serve the north city, Croke Park, St Patrick's College and Dublin City University as well as the Mater site.:rolleyes:

I think I'll bid for the travelator contract. :D

[Mark Gleeson]

Drumcondra station is of course closer to DCU

But who cares there be a metro stop for DCU

[Mark]

That article is just all about politics and the childrens hospital.

Nice thats its in the public now though.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Interesting.

As Mark correctly says we trashed this out in great detail last year here, and yes it can be done (anything can be done) but it will not be done.

Also, the docklands line is strictly temportary (its part of the planning permission) and the clock is ticking during the construction of the "new" Mater hospital.

(At the very latest, 12th March this year starts that 10 year lifetime of docklands station ticking.)

I say "new", given that there is apparently a hospital on site and may have been there for over a hundred years. Still, its nice to see CIE coming in to help one side of the argument about the new childrens hospital, I may be cynical, but you've got to wonder what or who prompted his intrusion.

And, being cynical, I also remember the wonderful "stories" abounding 10 years ago when the GAA started looking for permission for the redeveloped Canal End about the new station under it, a la Landsdowne Road.

There's an election coming this year, you know.

[philip]

We looked at this, there is only one location that comes even close and its very very difficult
Why? Seriously, a surface station at this location would be relatively easy to build. Might cost a bit but you'll never see it on Discovery Channel's "Extreme Engineering"!

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

All a dream since we have been told Irish Rail have no interest in doing this

We looked at this, there is only one location that comes even close and its very very difficult

There will be a metro stop 60m away from the only location IE can put a station and another metro stop under the Matter

The Midland line has no use beyond 2015 at this time

Dr Lynch has very little clue about the actual reality in the subsidiary companies, anyone who was at the CDE launch will remember his rather interesting speech


The new station at Dorset Street is already in the bag from what I have been told. Formal announcement will be made when Docklands station opens in March.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Why? Seriously, a surface station at this location would be relatively easy to build. Might cost a bit but you'll never see it on Discovery Channel's "Extreme Engineering"!

The idea is being backed at the highest levels in the Government apparently - Mary Hearny is behind the plan.

I am still trying to find out about the PPT tunnel part - sounds too incredible to be true but it is great to see CIE themselves bringing the idea up at last. But at the same time I am suspicious this coming from the guy who went to Navan and said the Kingscourt branch would be restored. But I am glad to see this development.

Personally I think the capitalising on the Mater access issue to try and reopen the PPT tunnel line is one of the most intelligent and clever tactics the CIE boardroom have ever shown. I think Dr Lynch played an absolute blinder here and I hope P11 issue a press release putting their full support behind this idea instead of getting hung up on what some minor IE bottle washer/manager said ages ago which matter not as CIE are the real decision-makers in railways in Ireland, not IE management. They are just the go-fers carrying out CIE orders.

Should be interesting to see where this all leads - but the Dorset Street station is a dead cert.

[Mark]

Why? Seriously, a surface station at this location would be relatively easy to build. Might cost a bit but you'll never see it on Discovery Channel's "Extreme Engineering"!

Nice one!

This was part of your submission to the metro north wasnt it? Did you send that on to IE?

[Mark Gleeson]

I'm not going into the details but you won't fit a platform within 150m of Dorset Street, won't fit one west of it no chance. In that scenario the existing Drumcondra station would be closer to both the Mater and Dorset Street

Dr Lynch has no clue, like I said if you had been at the CDE launch lunch you'd understand

There exists no plan and no funding. I have been told by very senior people that a station on the Midland line near Drumcondra is not happening, these are people who know, they ain't journalists or politcal appointees.

If there was to be a station it would have been disclosed during the metro north route choice and it would have been built by now anyway if it was to happen since construction now will disrupt Docklands services

[Derek Wheeler]

You can all argue to your hearts content about the location of a station on the midland line between Croker and Dorset st, but perhaps the biggest unanswered transport question re the Mater debacle, is the contribution that can be made by the Phoenix park tunnel.

I don't subscribe to political bull**** or CIE bull****. In fact I wouldn't trust IE with anything more than a meaningless parcel by Fastrack. However, the continued debate about the Mater site is full of references to public transport, access etc. If the Government are hellbent on the site, then I think it really provides a very important opportunity to further promote the PPT route and the possibilities it offers. I wouldn't doubt that those crafty FFs and CIE are conspiring behind the backs of IE to use all rail infrastructure in the area as a carrot to making the donkey, that is resistance to the Mater site, go the journey to their promised land. Oh the irony of it all. I have to admit, I didn't see this one coming and I bet theres a few in Amiens street who didn't see it either.

A real opportunity here.

[Derek Wheeler]

Personally I think the capitalising on the Mater access issue to try and reopen the PPT tunnel line is one of the most intelligent and clever tactics the CIE boardroom have ever shown. I think Dr Lynch played an absolute blinder here and I hope P11 issue a press release putting their full support behind this idea instead of getting hung up on what some minor IE bottle washer/manager said ages ago which matter not as CIE are the real decision-makers in railways in Ireland, not IE management. They are just the go-fers carrying out CIE orders.

Should be interesting to see where this all leads - but the Dorset Street station is a dead cert.

The proposed station between Croker and Dorset st is a joke in terms of serving the Mater. Furthermore, there are no long term plans to use the Midland line, if the interconnector is built. On top of that, Drumcondra will still be closer than any alternative station on the Midland line. Don't forget that the PPT isn't even accessible from the Midland line. I believe your source is wrong.

Regarding the PPT issue, we'll deal with that our way and it won't be based solely on any letter that John Lynch wrote to Mary Harney. Your other remarks about IE bottlewashers/managers are uncalled for because I and other committee members take offense to the suggestion that P11 is wrong to listen to them. We listen to everyone, including you and everyone else on this forum, but we draw the line at the suggestions made by your comments. I won't waste anymore of my voluntary time explaining why its important to listen to all those who matter as opposed to listening to one faction which may or may not exist) and then articulating it in a secretive manner.

P11s information on this issue comes from IE and the RPA.

Finally a note to all posters on this thread. You will have noticed that the committee are trying to condense and focus infrastructural/technical discussions into the designated area in the members section. Board restructuring is currently underway and we cannot guarantee the continued provision of this thread. It has been copied to the members infrastructural area.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

The proposed station between Croker and Dorset st is a joke in terms of serving the Mater.

So it the Dockland in terms of serving the Luas Point line and it still got built.

Glasnevin Jct would be better for the Mater but they seem to have this Croker thing tied in as well and it looks like a shotgun approach to both locations (and Metro North). Which if you ask me is not the worst idea. It's a central axis of a few major destinations and is the only part of the Midland it can be realistically built with street access and so on. A station there would generate plenty of passengers.

Great Ormond Street in London which is considered the best childrens hospital in the world and serves a population of 10 million does not have a rail station within easy walking distance I don't think (but I might be wrong) - nonetheless, I bet most people get there by public transport. So they are walking to it from a tube station a fair distance away? I can't even recall a bus stop outside GOS either now that I think about it. So walking to the Mater from Dorset is not a huge slog for most people visiting or working there from non MetroNorth locations.

Furthermore, there are no long term plans to use the Midland line, if the interconnector is built. On top of that, Drumcondra will still be closer than any alternative station on the Midland line. Don't forget that the PPT isn't even accessible from the Midland line. I believe your source is wrong.

We will just have to wait and see then. But it was same contact who alerted me about the funding for the Athlone to Midland reopening when it wasn't even on the radar screen and lo and behold it was true. Yeah I know there is an election on and all kinds of plans will be made - but once a politician pulls a cat out of the bag you have something to bug and pester them with. Look how Meath-on-Track does this on their site. West-on-Track do it all the time as well. I have no reason to beleive this is not real either. CIE have also recently hinted that the Docklands station may be retained. They is lots of grey areas still surrounding T21 and it's not as set in stone as much as we are being led to believe. The 2003 SRR said an emphatic "no" to a couple of rail projects which are currently being planned. So there you go.

Regarding the PPT issue, we'll deal with that our way and it won't be based solely on any letter that John Lynch wrote to Mary Harney.

Well maybe you should reconsider this, because they are two very powerful people who can get things done. Way more powerful than any IE manager.

Your other remarks about IE bottlewashers/managers are uncalled for because I and other committee members take offense to the suggestion that P11 is wrong to listen to them.

I never said you were wrong to listen to them, so you are taking offense for no reason. However, I know (and so do you) that's it's a mistake to take what they say at face value as they have no control over what CIE and the Government want from them. I really do not think I have to start whipping out decades of evidence to support this either.

IE management's announcements over the last few years alone would win the Booker Prize for 'Best Work of Fiction' mainly because they live in a world of political chicken-eggism of which they have no control over the outcome. In this sense they are bottlewashers doing somebody else's bidding. Same for the RPA/DoT/DTA you name it. Only yesterday you said on another thread that railways are poltically driven in this country.

Matters not who is sitting in the IE boardroom, it's the TDs and high ranking civil servants who have the power and it's Dr Lynch who can throw his own influence in their as well. It's not the lads in Amiens Street. Nothing worng with talking to them at all, pleanty wrong with making the absolute assumption that what they promise is going to manifest into reality everytime. Because you, I and wallpaper knows this is not the case.

We listen to everyone, including you and everyone else on this forum, but we draw the line at the suggestions made by your comments. I won't waste anymore of my voluntary time explaining why its important to listen to all those who matter as opposed to listening to one faction which may or may not exist) and then articulating it in a secretive manner.

Ah come now, I am just offering a bit of advice which might be worth capitalising on while the iron is still hot and issue is out there now. We all wanna see the PPT brought into use and there is no harm in me or anyone else viewing this as a ray of hope.

P11s information on this issue comes from IE and the RPA.

Matters not what these organision tell anyone they have boses above them. Politicans panicing can have good and bad results for out of the blue rail investment. This is like the DART greystones job, or Luas Gap, but this one has the advantage of being a positive politically motivated idea for a change.

And yes, I think Dr Lynch is playing an absolute blinder here. I spent years listening to him claim the PPT was a "works tunnel" and now look what he is saying. I am excited and pleasantly surprised he has finally come around. Better late than never. So why not support him. That's all I am saying.

[Thomas J Stamp]

There are differances.

[So they are walking to it from a tube station a fair distance away? I can't even recall a bus stop outside GOS either now that I think about it./QUOTE]

Plenty of busses stop adjcent to the Mater/Temple Street. No matter how you do it, they'll all be nearer than the proposed station on the midland line.

[QUOTE]CIE have also recently hinted that the Docklands station may be retained.

They can hint all they like, put its a condition of the planning permission for the station that it is only for 10 years (and the ten years started in 2006) so its not their call.

So is the Dockland in terms of serving the Luas Point line and it still got built

Difference is that the LUAS is intended to be integrated with the interconnector not the temp station which is being currently being built. The proposal here is to waste money on a station on a line that is currently scheduled to close in 2016. You can further eat into the operational time of the line with the construction of the Childrens wings of the hospital. So what do we get - about five years of use out of it?

Dont get me wrong, myself and Philip were both strong advocates of this project before (Philip still is) but AFAIK there is a problem further up line with getting the pieces to fit. And if the interconnector comes along (and it must) then the workings for this line are redundant in any event.

To keep the temp station open means not doing the interconnector station.

As this is now a pure infrastructural thread its only fair that we keep it open till 22.00 tonight for non-members postings and then its off to the members section.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

There are differances.

[QUOTE][So they are walking to it from a tube station a fair distance away? I can't even recall a bus stop outside GOS either now that I think about it./QUOTE]

Plenty of busses stop adjcent to the Mater/Temple Street. No matter how you do it, they'll all be nearer than the proposed station on the midland line. [QUOTE]

But they do not go anywhere near the rest of the country like the PPT tunnel has the potential to do. Hence Dr Lynch playing a blinder by using the Mater issue to drum up extra investment with the potential endgame of getting the PPT up and running. Having a Dublin Bus stop outside the front door is no use to somebody visiting a sick child from outside the BaC service area. His logic and methodology seems perfectly rational to me.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Sure, I agree, but what about the others points I made?

In any event, the real story here is the shorehorning of a badly needed hospital into a place where it should not go. Deciding on the location first and then dreaming up short term train stations to service it is putting the cart before the horse.

I mean, why not put it in Adamstown? How about on the Outer Ring Road? Plenty of other places to put it.

[Mark Gleeson]

As you well know the Midland line can't be served from the Park Tunnel so its not a about linking the Mater to anything, of course to the informed it looks like it does, Lynch is in that crowd

Note of course the bus service in the Midlands which closed its purpose to provide public transport to a hospital, no one used it

Whats going on here is fairly obvious and has nothing to do with public transport

If a metro stop underneath the proposed hospital isn't enough what is? Metro stop is being built regardless

[clonsilladart]

So walking to the Mater from Dorset is not a huge slog for most people visiting or working there from non MetroNorth locations.


Would someone tell me what is wrong with the following:

1) Anybody going to the mater from "non metro north locations" switch onto Metro North at Drumcondra (Dart / Suburban Rail) or Stephens Green (Green Luas or Interconnector).
2) Anybody Visiting DCU....Do the Same
3) Anybody Visiting Croke Park.... Get off at Drumcondra as they do a the moment (and have a few pints before the game)

4) Stop wasting time and money on something that is not Required and BUILD THE INTERCONNECTOR NOW!!!!!!

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Sure, I agree, but what about the others points I made?

I either agreed with some, or passed others as I did not see them as a major concern which can't be dealth with.

In any event, the real story here is the shorehorning of a badly needed hospital into a place where it should not go. Deciding on the location first and then dreaming up short term train stations to service it is putting the cart before the horse.

hmm, not sure about that. Have to think about it more...we talking Dorset Street here in more of less the centre of a European capital city with a potential to bring in passengers from all over for Croker and the Mater. It's not a greenfield location so there are plenty of urban synergies which automatically add a viablility factor to this idea and if it starts the ball rolling towards getting trains running through the PPT then I personally would be on that bandwagon right off that mark - but that's just me, as I have spent many years working on the PPT route so I admit there is an emotional factor which I am being driven along by to a certian extent as well.

I mean, why not put it in Adamstown? How about on the Outer Ring Road? Plenty of other places to put it.

Because the Mater is the sight which is 99.9% likely to happen.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Stop wasting time and money on something that is not Required and BUILD THE INTERCONNECTOR NOW!!!!!!

How does this affect the Interconnector - it has nothing to do with it. Any funding will be most likely shifted from the HSE into the project. The GAA have long said they wanted a station on the site of Croker and there is another pile of cash there too. Rail projects get their funding by moving money from one government department and into CIE is hardly uncommon.

The Interconnector funding is already ring-fenced the contractor are about to be tendered - the Interconnector is already in the bag. It's all to be announced very soon. Trust me on this one. If I thought this was a replacement for the Interconnector I would be against it - but it isn't. If this is what you are assuming then you are wrong, WAY wrong.

The either/or debate surrounding the PPT/Interconnector ended a long time ago. We are in a new world of Interconnector "add-ons" now. I can't see what you are being so upset about. We have a very good chance now of ending up getting both and what's is wrong with that?

Here is a clue...NOTHING. It's how is should be.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Yes but the mechanics of getting from the PPT to this station are just not there at the moment. Are you of the opinion that John Lynch has liased with IE to explore re-jigging Glasnevin/Liffey Junctions?

As it is, and with the scarcity of services that Docklands Station will be given, it is a White Elephant and, looking at the photos on Meath on Track, an ugly, barren looking one at that.

As I said above, anything can be built.

[clonsilladart]

How does this affect the Interconnector - it has nothing to do with it.

Apologies Nigel if i give the impression that I though it was a choice, or had anything to do with the interconnector.
I just used point 4 to reinforce what CIE and Dr Lynch should be focusing their energies on.....Championing early construction of the interconnector!!

My main point is that we don't need the new dorset st station..... I don't care where the €€€ is coming from. Indeed I can think of a million better places for the HSE to spend their money.
I can also think of a few hundred better places for IE to build a new station (ones that don't have a planned DART/Metro interchange within 5 mins walk of them)!!

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Apologies Nigel if i give the impression that I though it was a choice, or had anything to do with the interconnector.

No worries, I might have given that impression myself having been a long time high-priest of the Phoenix Park Tunnel route - but at the same time I am not a fanatic. I would sacrifice the PPT in a heartbeat for the Interconnector anyday - but at the same time I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth either when the chance of getting them both comes along either.


I just used point 4 to reinforce what CIE and Dr Lynch should be focusing their energies on.....Championing early construction of the interconnector!!

My main point is that we don't need the new dorset st station..... I don't care where the €€€ is coming from. Indeed I can think of a million better places for the HSE to spend their money.
I can also think of a few hundred better places for IE to build a new station (ones that don't have a planned DART/Metro interchange within 5 mins walk of them)!!

It's all coming very quickly now. The long wait is soon to end.

[dowlingm]

It seems to me that Bertie would promise a TGV to Holyhead if it got the Mater the Chislers Hospital. I suspect this may be the deal he wants to strike before getting out as Taoiseach, so that when the reckoning comes the locals will tug the forelock a la Haughey and say "shure didn't he gerrus the chislers hospital, a great man altogether".

[Colm Moore]

lol, I just realised that the Mater will have to fork out a few million in development levies for Metro. :D

[Thomas J Stamp]

lol, I just realised that the Mater will have to fork out a few million in development levies for Metro. :D

Doubt it, I'm sure they'll be exempt.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

The Phoenix is to rise from the ashes...

[Derek Wheeler]

The Phoenix is to rise from the ashes...

In T22 perhaps, because this bunch are still struggling to find it. Seems like its only known to IE traffic controllers and drivers. Management have yet to realise its existence.

Great story.

Gave a lift to an IE employee today. Friend of the family. Works in Connolly. Needed to get to Heuston. Couldn't figure out why there's still no train between the two, despite 34 billion euro being spent. The track is there he said. I know says I...I know.:rolleyes:

Interconnector says I. Load of b*****s says he. They planned Luas to save them the hassle he adds.

You'd wonder.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

IE management may not be aware of the PPT - but developers are aware of the value of Liffey Junction and Islandbridge (old keg loading area and carpark) landbanks and all the other smaller brownfield sites along its course. Now that the Interconnector funding is secured, CIE are no longer keeping the PPT secret anymore as the PPT can't be used as a political football. It's no longer a "works tunnel", and it no longer needs to be played down. Regular passenger services will be operating through the Phoenix Park tunnel within the timeframe of T21.