Iarnród Éireann funding crisis puts lines at risk, report warns

[platypusparcel]

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-funding-crisis-puts-lines-at-risk-report-warns-1.2840355

A number of rail lines may be forced to close as Iarnród Éireann is threatened with insolvency, a confidential report has warned.

The draft report given to Minister for Transport Shane Ross shows the country’s rail infrastructure has deteriorated to such a degree due to funding shortages that there are now increased safety risks.

It states the rail network needs more than €600 million investment over the next five years.

The report, seen by The Irish Times, says in the absence of any additional Government funding, large chunks of the rail network will have to close to eliminate the funding gap, leaving only the Dart, Dublin and Cork commuter routes and inter-city services from Dublin to Cork, Belfast and Limerick.

The review was compiled by the National Transport Authority and Iarnród Éireann to examine possible solutions for the financial sustainability of the State-owned rail operator.

It says that even with some additional Government funding, the routes from Limerick- Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction- Waterford could close.

It also suggests that part of the Limerick-Galway route from Ennis to Athenry, which only came back into service in 2010 at a cost of €100 million, and the Wexford line south of Gorey could be shut, leaving Wexford town and Rosslare without a rail service.

The draft review says that while numbers using the railways have started to rise again after the economic crash, Iarnród Éireann will still lose about €11 million this year.

It says the company incurred accumulated losses of €150 million between 2007 and 2015 despite delivering €76 million in savings in the same period, mainly due to reduced State funding and falling numbers.
“The company cannot incur further losses as it will become insolvent,� it says. The review says the balance sheet cannot sustain any unexpected financial shocks. It says that to address solvency issues and underfunding in previous years, the company would need an additional €144.6 million in 2017, €158.4 million in 2018 and €154.8 million in 2019. This additional funding requirement would fall to €93.4 million in 2020 and €90.6 million in 2021.

The review says that because of the reduced State funding over recent years, “large and varied parts of the railway’s infrastructure are in need of urgent maintenance due to this lack of investment�. The unsustainable level of funding resulted in deterioration of infrastructure assets, “giving rise to increased safety risks and unacceptably high commercial risks to the [company’s] various revenue streams�.

It warns journey times across the inter-city network could increase by 10 minutes every year due to underinvestment. It adds it is vital funding is made available to upgrade and replace control and communications systems.

“While safety will continue to be managed, safety standards will be compromised due to the deferral of investment in these safety-critical systems which would require a greater level of human interventions.
“Failure to upgrade the control and communications system could, as has been the case elsewhere, expose Iarnród Éireann to the unacceptable risk of serious collisions on single lines.�

[comcor]

I presume the brief was to create a scary report where even things like Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Kerry were threatened to create a bit of a fuss.

I have the impression that Irish Rail would gladly be rid off Limerick Junction to Waterford, Ennis to Athenry, Limerick to Ballybrophy and at least Wexford to Rosslare anyway.

[Jamie2k9]

I presume the brief was to create a scary report where even things like Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Kerry were threatened to create a bit of a fuss.

I have the impression that Irish Rail would gladly be rid off Limerick Junction to Waterford, Ennis to Athenry, Limerick to Ballybrophy and at least Wexford to Rosslare anyway.

We had a report like it a few years ago......I would expect it will be business as usual.

IE are in a catch 22 situation with Limerick-Wateford and BB-Limerick, Wexford down south won't close, whats a couple of miles of track going to cost them considering the major costs are much further up in terms of coastal problems.

Do the NTA cover the full costs of WRC, BB/Waterford-Limerick?

[Colm Moore]

Other stories
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/public-to-be-consulted-on-railways-amid-closure-warnings-1.2841264
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/report-urges-state-to-provide-125m-to-iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-1.2840407
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/rail-report-routes-around-country-at-risk-of-closure-1.2840423

Commentary: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/time-to-get-irish-rail-service-priorities-back-on-track-1.2843329Do the NTA cover the full costs of WRC, BB/Waterford-Limerick?Yes, Irish Rail aren't doing them for the fun.

[Mark Gleeson]

Closing a line doesn't make financial sense

Line A takes in revenue X and makes loss Y
NTA pays PSO at value Y (give or take %)

IE closes line A
IE loses revenue X and PSO Y
IE has to pay out redundancy
IE head office costs remain the same but now spread over fewer lines

Prior to the arrival of EC1370 and the NTA IE would be up Y - X - redundancy in year 1 and Y - X in year 2 (Assuming that the subsidy is greater than revenue)

[comcor]

Commentary: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/time-to-get-irish-rail-service-priorities-back-on-track-1.2843329Yes, Irish Rail aren't doing them for the fun.

Blessington?

How many people live there?

That hardly seems like a good investment.

There are 6 or 7 large towns round the Dublin and Cork areas that should definitely be ahead of it.

[Jamie2k9]

IE are due to get over 50 million in 2017, according to papers yesterday as well. It's clear they will get the loins share of the 650 by 2021. Question is why did Ross leak the report, test waters for possible closures.

Closing a line doesn't make financial sense

Line A takes in revenue X and makes loss Y
NTA pays PSO at value Y (give or take %)

IE closes line A
IE loses revenue X and PSO Y
IE has to pay out redundancy
IE head office costs remain the same but now spread over fewer lines

Prior to the arrival of EC1370 and the NTA IE would be up Y - X - redundancy in year 1 and Y - X in year 2 (Assuming that the subsidy is greater than revenue)

I guess the NTA have more to gain by getting rid of lines but who is typically behind touting such closures IE or NTA?

[James Howard]

That report is so obviously kite-flying but I'd say it is seriously likely that North Tipp and Limerick Junction to Waterford's days are numbered. Things simply can't go on as they are and it will be a matter of either automating the lines or closing them. Ennis to Athenry is a different case given that the operating costs aren't quite as crazy.

There is a fundamental issue though where Irish Rail are charging 35 euro for an open return for a 70 mile return journey from my station on trains that are for the most part packed and extremely lightly staffed. Yet every train requires a subsidy. Demand is obviously very high yet nobody can afford the fares. The real nub of the issue is that until some way is found to pay for the large numbers of people travelling for free (legally or otherwise), the railway system will remain in crisis.

[grainne whale]

That report is so obviously kite-flying but I'd say it is seriously likely that North Tipp and Limerick Junction to Waterford's days are numbered. Things simply can't go on as they are and it will be a matter of either automating the lines or closing them. Ennis to Athenry is a different case given that the operating costs aren't quite as crazy.

There is a fundamental issue though where Irish Rail are charging 35 euro for an open return for a 70 mile return journey from my station on trains that are for the most part packed and extremely lightly staffed. Yet every train requires a subsidy. Demand is obviously very high yet nobody can afford the fares. The real nub of the issue is that until some way is found to pay for the large numbers of people travelling for free (legally or otherwise), the railway system will remain in crisis.Tell me more - people travelling for free (legally):eek:

[ACustomer]

GW: yes, we're the >65s! Don't worry, some day you will benefit too. :D

[James Howard]

Note that I didn't suggest the over 65's don't travel for free although I seriously doubt that this facility will be extended to me when I reach that age. The issue is that Irish Rail isn't receiving a fair price for this facility which would cost me something like 6,000 euro a year to pay for myself. This needs to be addressed by either increasing the free travel contribution from state funds or by asking users to contribute a portion of their fare.

As a taxpayer, I personally don't mind a bit more of my tax going into the free travel as it a good use of state funds - the health benefits (and resulting HSE savings) of keeping older people active are pretty obvious. As somebody who pays a lot of money to travel by train, I do however resent part of my fare being used to subsidise other peoples' travel.

Fares - particularly open returns have reached a point where they are getting pretty unaffordable yet the trains are generally pretty busy and still Irish Rail can't make money. Something doesn't add up. Either too few people are buying tickets or Irish Rail are spectacularly inefficient.

[ACustomer]

JAmes Howard: you are right. In many respects the Free Travel scheme is administered in a completely shambolic way as far as the CIE companies are concerned. Basically it is now a lump-sum payment, so the marginal revenue to Irish Rail from more passengers is zero. The transport companies should be paid for each over-65 they carry: not a lot , just to cover at least the marginal costs of off-peak passengers. Over-65s should have only limited access to peak services.

Needless to say there there is total political cowardice when it comes to these issues. MAybe I can't blame the politicians too much when I can guess how the whingeing media would react.

[grainne whale]

GW: yes, we're the >65s! Don't worry, some day you will benefit too. :D
Yes, it won't be too far off now, my point is that they are not actually travelling for free (we) have made our contribution over all the years of working.

[grainne whale]

Note that I didn't suggest the over 65's don't travel for free although I seriously doubt that this facility will be extended to me when I reach that age. The issue is that Irish Rail isn't receiving a fair price for this facility which would cost me something like 6,000 euro a year to pay for myself. This needs to be addressed by either increasing the free travel contribution from state funds or by asking users to contribute a portion of their fare.

As a taxpayer, I personally don't mind a bit more of my tax going into the free travel as it a good use of state funds - the health benefits (and resulting HSE savings) of keeping older people active are pretty obvious. As somebody who pays a lot of money to travel by train, I do however resent part of my fare being used to subsidise other peoples' travel.

Fares - particularly open returns have reached a point where they are getting pretty unaffordable yet the trains are generally pretty busy and still Irish Rail can't make money. Something doesn't add up. Either too few people are buying tickets or Irish Rail are spectacularly inefficient.
Scrap, car parking changes at stations and people will use the train more. Travelling by bus is just as quick and no car parking changes.

[comcor]

Yes, it won't be too far off now, my point is that they are not actually travelling for free (we) have made our contribution over all the year working.

That's fair enough, but the problem is that over 65s have made their contribution to the Government, but the Government haven't handed over a fair share to transportation services.

[Colm Moore]

Yes, it won't be too far off now, my point is that they are not actually travelling for free (we) have made our contribution over all the years of working.Scrap, car parking changes at stations and people will use the train more. Travelling by bus is just as quick and no car parking changes.Anything that is free at the point of use is at risk of being misused / abused.

[grainne whale]

Anything that is free at the point of use is at risk of being misused / abused. That may very well be the case - however it discourages people from travelling by train (where I live in Celbridge) nobody is going to drive to the station (1.5 miles from town) and pay for parking on top of the train fare - it's far easier to hop on a bus. There are no parking charges in Clondalkin / Fonthill station and the parking there is not abused.

[Jamie2k9]

There are no parking charges in Clondalkin / Fonthill station and the parking there is not abused.

That's because it's miles from anywhere useful.

I agree parking charges are a problem but regular users get reasonable deals and I think continued promoting of this is required.

[grainne whale]

That's because it's miles from anywhere useful.

I agree parking charges are a problem but regular users get reasonable deals and I think continued promoting of this is required. Now that would be an idea - free parking where stations 'are miles from anywhere' should be free - ie Hazelhatch/ Celbridge

[James Howard]

While regular users used to get very reasonable deals on annual passes, this has gone up by 50% over the last 4 years. Since it's now down to about a 40% discount on 12 monthlies, that will be eroded entirely over the next 3 to 4 years at this rate.

I do think that on principle, you should be charged a bit extra to park a car at the station but for some stations enforcement costs must come pretty close to the revenue. By the time you've factored in the revenue lost this has to almost entirely absorb the income stream from parking.

My understanding is that Irish Rail get about a million euro a year from parking. This is the revenue gained from about 250 to 300 long-distance passes or about 40,000 day returns. I tend to encourage friends and neighbours to use the train when travelling to Dublin as it is so much easier than driving but the most common reason people give for driving aside from the train not going where they need to go is the parking charges.

4.50 on top of 25 euro for a journey than can be done on 20 euro of diesel tips the balance for a lot of people and makes it senseless to use the train if two people are travelling.

[grainne whale]

While regular users used to get very reasonable deals on annual passes, this has gone up by 50% over the last 4 years. Since it's now down to about a 40% discount on 12 monthlies, that will be eroded entirely over the next 3 to 4 years at this rate.

I do think that on principle, you should be charged a bit extra to park a car at the station but for some stations enforcement costs must come pretty close to the revenue. By the time you've factored in the revenue lost this has to almost entirely absorb the income stream from parking.

My understanding is that Irish Rail get about a million euro a year from parking. This is the revenue gained from about 250 to 300 long-distance passes or about 40,000 day returns. I tend to encourage friends and neighbours to use the train when travelling to Dublin as it is so much easier than driving but the most common reason people give for driving aside from the train not going where they need to go is the parking charges.

4.50 on top of 25 euro for a journey than can be done on 20 euro of diesel tips the balance for a lot of people and makes it senseless to use the train if two people are travelling.
Yes I find the same, I always encourage friends/neighbours to use the train Celbridge/Hazelhatch to Dublin as it is far more pleasant than a bus journey, but again it's the parking charges that put them off, also the cost of 145/Luas is a factor. For them it's a no brainer, it's far easier to drive.

[Jamie2k9]

Now that would be an idea - free parking where stations 'are miles from anywhere' should be free - ie Hazelhatch/ Celbridge

I knew I should of been clearer in the first post!

Problem is Clondalkin carries next to no passengers because planned development didn't happen. The same case can't be made about Hazelhatch.

I'm sure free parking would help but it's a necessity at Clondalkin but not so much a problem at Hazelhatch.

[JohnnyBoy]

Can't see any reason why parking permits couldn't be issued to ticket holders. It wouldn't be that big of a technological feat to have ticket machines that could read travel tickets and issue parking tickets as well as taking cash.

[James Howard]

Unfortunately now that parking is established as a revenue it is very difficult for Irish Rail to give it up unless they have a clear business case showing that they will make more money without it. To do this, they would need to have lots of empty seats on trains leaving a station which are likely to be filled with fare-paying passengers if parking was made free.

It might be feasible to argue the case for some stations being made free where the cost of parking enforcement exceeds the revenue but I actually think they have given up on enforcement in a lot of places. I forgot to transfer the parking back from my wife's car for about 10 days recently while I left my car in Edgeworthstown without getting a ticket.

Maybe they are nice enough to recognise the regulars and not fine them but I'd think it more likely that they just aren't bothering with sending a van.

[grainne whale]

I knew I should of been clearer in the first post!

Problem is Clondalkin carries next to no passengers because planned development didn't happen. The same case can't be made about Hazelhatch.

I'm sure free parking would help but it's a necessity at Clondalkin but not so much a problem at Hazelhatch.
If you commuted on that route you would notice that quite a few passengers use Clondalkin station. The car park at Hazelhatch is massive and only a quarter full - I wonder why :confused:

[Colm Moore]

Can't see any reason why parking permits couldn't be issued to ticket holders. It wouldn't be that big of a technological feat to have ticket machines that could read travel tickets and issue parking tickets as well as taking cash.Taxsaver / annual ticket holders can get a parking ticket at a much reduced rate.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/Taxsaver

[Underground]

Yes I find the same, I always encourage friends/neighbours to use the train Celbridge/Hazelhatch to Dublin as it is far more pleasant than a bus journey, but again it's the parking charges that put them off, also the cost of 145/Luas is a factor. For them it's a no brainer, it's far easier to drive.

The next stop in, Adamstown, has free parking. The actual main carpark was never even finished!

[grainne whale]

The next stop in, Adamstown, has free parking. The actual main carpark was never even finished! It's really not easy to get to from Celbridge - the road network is not great - drive into Lucan and then up to Adamstown Station - if you drive that route - well you might as well just continue you journey by car.

[KSW]

Investment is needed badly on the Rosslare line. I took the 18.47 last night haven't took the train is over four years open return €29.50 and a single way which I purchased €20.50 train took exactly 2hrs just from Gorey to Connolly are they serious. I will go back to my regular Wexford Bus such a different of a €10 extra fare bus most times take 1hr20 I don't know how IE honestly expect passengers on their services when clearly 2hrs is an absolute joke. Not impressed by those 22k new trains the seats are so uncomfortable The old Mk3 trains had comfort. If IE ever want my custom they seriously need to look into cheaper fares and a lot more services

[Jamie2k9]

More details
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1115/831945-rail-report-iarnrod-eireann/

[ThomasJ]

report download link (quite big)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

[Jamie2k9]

The passenger data for 2015 shows that some IC/Commuter show record numbers (well 2006-2015 period).

Cork, Tralee, Limerick, Galway, Westport/Ballina, Kildare and Cork Commuter.

[Inniskeen]

Looks like this was thrown together in a mighty hurry with some very strange figures and rambling and irrelevant appendices. Some of the conclusions statements don't seem to correspond with the evidence.

Just one example that immediately stands out - Newry is included in the list of least used stations with 49 passengers in one direction and zero in the other ! How can these figures be correct ? Is this simply the number of passengers on the 0645 from Newry to Bray with nothing else counted ?

[comcor]

What is the justification for looking at the cost per passenger journey, rather than cost per passenger km?

[James Howard]

Makes for a more sensationalist headline?

[RPI]

I've glanced through the report and several things stand out:

1. There's no modelling of underlying demand patterns on any route. It could be that some routes are underperforming because current service patterns don't align with customer demand.

2. The report doesn't make the connection between signalling infrastructure and running costs on lines such as Limerick Junction - Waterford and Limerick - Ballybrophy.

3. There is no consideration of any alternative plan other than closure for lines which are underperforming.

4. IE appear to be overegging the pudding somewhat - I am surprised that the Kilkenny signalling already needs replacement while I would like to see how those electrification workers are doing on the Nenagh branch. Plus they aren't even utilising the correct cost metrics i.e. cost per passenger/km.

[Jamie2k9]

4. IE appear to be overegging the pudding somewhat - I am surprised that the Kilkenny signalling already needs replacement

I don't believe it was part of CTC replacement. All signals from Lavistown in were not replaced when CTC was been upgraded. Now saying that some signal heads have been replaced over last 12/18 months and other works.

Ironic thing is the section of signaling that fails most often is the Waterford West to Ballyhale or all the way to Lavistown South!

This is gas:
Dublin-Waterford also underperforms, partly due to the
stopping arrangements at Kilkenny, and permanent speed restrictions.

All InterCity trains travelling through Kilkenny should stop there

Hopefully IE have the scene to ignore!

[RPI]

Hopefully IE have the scene to ignore!

Another zinger is the relocation of Newry to the Republic and it's classification as one of the 25 least-used stations in the country.

[Jamie2k9]

Another zinger is the relocation of Newry to the Republic and it's classification as one of the 25 least-used stations in the country.

Expect it was some form of oversite or the authors have never looked at a map of Ireland.
-----
Overall the report is very vage, no substance and all data was more less cut and paste from previous reports.

I fully expect Limerick J to Waterford to get shafted like Waterdord to Rosslare did. Its not something I can accept when IE and NTA both wash their hands of all responsiblity for its failings. The other lines have given the public chance after chance but nothing on this one.

As if WRC or Limerick to BB, who are they trying to kid. Don't see Rosslare getting the chop just not worth it.

[Inniskeen]

The rail review document is all over the place. Whst exactly is the relevance of the histotical list of closures ? From a first pass I see little evidence of strategic thinking or capacity planning (other than some discussions about rolling stock).

As regards lightly used lines, the entire reason for lack of business is conveniently down to lack of demand, no discussion of service quality or relevance. The service on the Wexford, Nenagh and Limerick/Waterford have either deteriorated dramatically or failed to adjust to circumstances. Most of the track and infrastructure on these routes has been upgraded but with little apparent strategic objective other than box ticking in respect of asset age and condition.

As for the inclusion of Newry, this is probably simply the one commuter service provided by Irish Rail !

[Kilocharlie]

The review also discusses fleet enhancement to cope with expect growth in numbers:

Refurbishing the 2700s at 300,000 each to be on-line in 2018/19 and releasing
ICRs from the PPT route


And buying an additional 41 ICR 'B' (intermediate) cars (perhaps to convert 4-car to 5-car?); this would be subject to procurement allowing use of the existing framework agreement.


OR acquiring the equivalent in a new procurement (more expensive and a lot longer due to full tendering equirements)

[Jamie2k9]

Refurbishing the 2700s at 300,000 each to be on-line in 2018/19 and releasing
ICRs from the PPT route

IMO, they will be needed before that not particularly for PPT.

And buying an additional 41 ICR 'B' (intermediate) cars (perhaps to convert 4-car to 5-car?); this would be subject to procurement allowing use of the existing framework agreement.
OR acquiring the equivalent in a new procurement (more expensive and a lot longer due to full tendering equirements)

Nothing stopping them putting out tenders for expressions of interest now and get the work out of the way.

IMO for the sake of a few million, it would make more sense to order around 10 sets of 5 and 7 coaches (60/40 split).

I mean buying 41 middle coaches will just cost more long term as if you increase 3/4 sets to 4/5 units you then more less need to extend platforms around the country as you just overly complicate things as no flexibility with the fleet and ensuring the right sets is not easy.

Basing it on today rosters, 5 coach sets will have limited benefit apart from around Dublin belt M3, N Commuter etc.

Of course typical Ireland will be buy cheap now, spend more long term trying to accommodate them. Them again IE may buy them to park them up :rolleyes:

Anyway why are they not more interested in purchasing a new batch of 2900 and remove ICR from M3, Maynooth, PPT and Drogheda.

They have received big orders from the UK over the last 12-18 months because they have offered good deals.

[Kilocharlie]

Nothing stopping them putting out tenders for expressions of interest now and get the work out of the way.

A full tender process takes up to five years. Re-ordering additional ICR units only take 2-3 years. Also there is the advantage of compatibility with the rest of the fleet esp for maintenance. Quickest and cheapest option. Also, new trains need more drivers and more slots; extending existing sets require neither again limiting long term costs.

New trains would take much longer to deliver plus additional long term costs for maintaining different types.

[Jamie2k9]

A full tender process takes up to five years. Re-ordering additional ICR units only take 2-3 years. Also there is the advantage of compatibility with the rest of the fleet esp for maintenance. Quickest and cheapest option. Also, new trains need more drivers and more slots; extending existing sets require neither again limiting long term costs.

New trains would take much longer to deliver plus additional long term costs for maintaining different types.

I dont buy the point about drivers/slots as new sets increase size and replace ICR but they are not at all suitable for M3 or Maynooth even with an extra carriage.

Anyway they may not be allowed get middle coaches but you can bet nobody will examine the tenders until last minute.

[ACustomer]

Ordering "more of the same" from Rotem doesn't have to be just more intermediate cars: you could order (for example) 10 4-car sets of more or less identical specification to existing stock.

[Colm Moore]

What is the justification for looking at the cost per passenger journey, rather than cost per passenger km?One is a readily digestible statistic, the other isn't. In other words, optics.

And buying an additional 41 ICR 'B' (intermediate) cars (perhaps to convert 4-car to 5-car?); this would be subject to procurement allowing use of the existing framework agreement.

OR acquiring the equivalent in a new procurement (more expensive and a lot longer due to full tendering equirements)If there are public procurement issues, the way one frames it is "I want X carriages that are fully compatible with my existing 22000 fleet. Make it work.". Given that a lot of the equipment is modular (German gearboxes, French windows, etc.), the other manufacturers can keep manners on any potential price gouging.

Anyway why are they not more interested in purchasing a new batch of 2900 and remove ICR from M3, Maynooth, PPT and Drogheda.They should buy DART units for Maynooth and that would free up 29000s.

[Jamie2k9]

They should buy DART units for Maynooth and that would free up 29000s.

This came into my mind when posting, ie buying more 2900 when the Maynooth line will be electrified in future. However can we put a realistic time frame on this I don't think so. Surly we are talking 10-15 years before it happens.

I don't think buying more ICR's is the solution here at all.

Drogheda had no problem maintaining 28 and 2900 which are similar and no reason why new DMU's shouldn't any different. 2700 leaving was for other reasons.

Bringing back the 2700 sooner is key, thy would solve the M3 Parkway issues and even the off peak shuttle a 2 coach set is perfect. That would free up a few sets. I am wondering is this totally down to funds or IE dragging their heels on pushing ICR's to the limit.

I think IE will keep PPT all ICR while they can.

All I hope is a proper solution to capacity needs is taken by IE and the NTA and not one based on cheap costs and even an easy tender process. By all means there is likely scope for a couple middle ICR coaches (no where near 41) but Dublin Commuter needs something different.

[James Howard]

I agree that expanding the ICR fleet beyond a dozen or so centre cars is a complete waste of money.

Anything they do should be done with a mind to future electrification. Is it realistic to expect to be burning diesel in trains well into the 2050s which would be the expected retirement date of any 22K units ordered today based on the lifespan of the Mark 2s. Although it would be Irish Rail's style to buy then and then chop them in half in 10 years' time when they get bored with them.

It's the usual Irish response. Wait until something becomes a crisis and then blame your lack of planning on having to make decisions under pressure.

[Colm Moore]

I agree that expanding the ICR fleet beyond a dozen or so centre cars is a complete waste of money.Buying small batches like that aren't very cost effective unless you can bundle it with something else, not necessarily the same, but with a large degree of commonality.

Anything they do should be done with a mind to future electrification. Is it realistic to expect to be burning diesel in trains well into the 2050s which would be the expected retirement date of any 22K units ordered today When you (rightly) put it that way, there is a lot of sense in making sure anything new is either electric or electric compatible.

Bringing back the 2700 sooner is key, thy would solve the M3 Parkway issues and even the off peak shuttle a 2 coach set is perfect. That would free up a few sets. I am wondering is this totally down to funds or IE dragging their heels on pushing ICR's to the limit.Funds and fleet management. For fleet management, there is a motivation to run the newest fleet to the maximum (especially if still under warranty) until the decision is made that fleet with the least remaining life can be retired.

[Jamie2k9]

Funds and fleet management. For fleet management, there is a motivation to run the newest fleet to the maximum (especially if still under warranty) until the decision is made that fleet with the least remaining life can be retired.

I guess you may have a point.

Wonder have/will they consider reducing the number of 4 coach units in favor of increase a few to 5. They would be higher capacity than 5 FC sets (+36 sets).

No evidence but suspect it could fit the bill for both evening Longford services and return two sets of 8 2900 to Dublin. 4 coach was to small (264 seated) but 336 seated and some standing, it surly should be reasonable adequate. I don't ever see 6/7 sets been scheduled for such a route. Would also address some other route issues.

It would also see if purchasing middle coaches stacks up for Dublin region. From day 1, I always questioned the level of 4 coach units and always felt it was a little to much.

25 4 coach sets, drop to 19 4 coach, 3 5 coach, 3 extra 3 coach on a trail basis.

[comcor]

Regarding the lines that are closed but not abandoned, it's a bit disappointing that there has been no attempt to break them into lines that may be reopened and those that will never be

I reckon you can split them in three (I am dividing a couple of lines up as they contain sections that fall into two categories)

Never going to reopen
Tara Junction-Kingscourt
Waterford-New Ross
Tralee-Fenit

Very unlikely to reopen
Tuam-Collooney
Patrickswell-Foynes
Mullingar-Athlone
Sligo-Sligo Goods Yard

Could reopen depending on future development
Midleton-Youghal
Limerick-Patrickswell
Waterford-Rosslare
Athenry-Tuam

I'd have absolutely no problem abandoning the first three and could probably tolerate the next four being abandoned, but the last four seem to be worth preserving, especially when you look at the development plans for those areas. For example, Midleton's population is expected to double within a decade. That changes a lot for the line east of it.

[Jamie2k9]

Sligo-Sligo Goods Yard

Of all the ones listed, this is actually most likely to re-open. Ballina is quiet busy and while the biomass factory in Mayo has run into problems. If/when it's completed it could result in some Ballina/Waterford timber been moved to Sligo again.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail may still have a contract option on extra ICR's so this is within the tendering rules so is a quick and low risk option.

The line abandonment is a legal move to get out of the maintenance and inspection of bridges, nationwide that could save 3 million a year

Certainly some routes should be retained, Waterford - Rosslare, Athlone - Mullingar, Limerick - Patrickswell

Youghal is a bit like Tuam, good in theory but doesn't really stack up

[Colm Moore]

Tuam has been killed by the M17. Indeed, the motorway even puts the Mayo line at risk to bus competition.

[Jamie2k9]

I agree about Youghal as well, nice addition but it couldn't compete by current road never mind the proposed additional N25 dual carriageway eventually to be built.

Note the Goverment have said no part of WRC will be closed and sure isn't there going to be a wasted money review into it.

Out of the lot, Waterford-Rosslare appears to be like it might be a soft touch and IE may get it passed.

Who makes the final decision?

[comcor]

For both Tuam and Youghal, I'd have to ask the question how many users would be taken off the train by the dual-carriageway.

Kildare, Northern Line and Midleton services all run parallel to a dual-carriageway and it doesn't seem to kill them.

I'd speculate that most rail commuters are people who either can't drive, don't have access to cheap parking or or happy to use rail to get them beyond congestion further into cities. A dual-carriageway that is improving cross-country speed isn't going to make a massive difference.

Also, the N25 upgrade is indefinitely suspended. i.e. it won't be complete this side of 2030.

[Jamie2k9]

Appears your typical 6 year old child likes to read the newspaper!

Not sure what's worst, the fact an adult believes a newspaper article or they actually wasted money on a stamp...still nice thing to do however orchestrated it may of been.

Boy writes touching letter to Irish Rail urging them to keep Sligo route open for sick mum

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/boy-writes-touching-letter-to-irish-rail-urging-them-to-keep-sligo-route-open-for-sick-mum-35241509.html

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-cuts-to-be-resisted-by-seven-ministers-1.2943884

The submission says significant improvements must be introduced to assist passengers, including increased security and the introduction of a railway division within An Garda SÃ*ochána.

Clearest sign yet we may get transport police. Don't really recall it been discussed by a ministerial level.

It was something I also raised when I submitted a response.