Public Consultation PPT & Heuston Services 2016

[Jamie2k9]

Not had a look but minor changes to sum Heuston services as a result.


http://www.irishrail.ie/news/phoenixparktunnelpublicconsultation

[ThomasJ]

Yep services to gcd will be peak time only for the time being.

[Jamie2k9]

These are the changes to existing services I can see:
08.30 to Portlaoise - Advanced to 08.25
17.20 to Portlaoise - Deferred to 17.25
17.25 to Limerick - Advanced to 17.20
17.55 to Newbridge - Cancelled
18.10 to Portlaoise - Advanced to 18.05
18.55 to Portlaoise - Deferred 19.05

06.05 from Waterford - Advanced to 06.00
07.20 from Portlaoise - Advanced to 07.17
19.15 from Newbridge - Cancelled

[grainne whale]

Useless for me as the are no Feeder Bus times shown fron Celbridge to / from Hazelhatch Station - it looks I will be applying for a Dublin Bus Taxsaver Ticket this year for the first time in the umpteen years of having such a Rail (Short Hop) Taxsaver Ticket.

[ACustomer]

gw: If bus feeder times from Hazlehatch are not shown, you should enquire about them. It doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that a draft rail timetable hasn't listed them, possibly because the whole thing is only a draft and buses will be finalised only when the train arrangements are finalised.

[grainne whale]

Thanks for that but I have to apply for my Annual Taxsaver Ticket next month - what am I supposed to do with it, if the Feeder Bus does not suit the trains that I generally use to get to Heuston. It won't be possible for (Birchalls) to provide extra buses to service trains to GCD as well, as they also run School Buses in the Celbridge area. I am assuming that the times of the Feeder Bus will be changed to connect with both services. I cant see the point in hanging around at Hazelhatch Station just to get a train that brings me into Heuston. :eek:

[Colm Moore]

What specific changes would people like?

In pushing for faster trains, the number of connections lost is huge. From Cork to Westport, the first arrival of the day is is 15:55(!), it could be 10:55.

The seem to not be stopping the PPT trains at Platform 10 and it seems Kishogue isn't opening.

One of the early morning Limerick Colbert to Heuston services should start at Ennis. Based on the draft timetable, the earliest arrival in Heuston from Ennis is 09:47 (via Athenry).

[Jamie2k9]

What specific changes would people like?


This appears to only be a temp schedule to get it up on running. I would expect another in 2017 when PPT is expanded and they cut IC times.

The seem to not be stopping the PPT trains at Platform 10 and it seems Kishogue isn't opening.

They can't...

One of the early morning Limerick Colbert to Heuston services should start at Ennis. Based on the draft timetable, the earliest arrival in Heuston from Ennis is 09:47 (via Athenry).

I don't see any radical changes such as a remove possibility of an Ennis link as it's incredibility difficult because of the 40 minute single track journey. The only way you could fit it in would be converting the 05.55 Galway to an ICR and joining up the regular 06.40 set and run to Ennis at 05.10 and split continuing to Galway and the return to Heuston departing at 05.55. You then have platfrom issues and all. I don't think they can do much as the 05.55 is a big commuter in Galway and the 06.50 to Limerick from Ennis is probally a busy commuter service and touching them could cost IE more than a direct Dublin service is worth.

[berneyarms]

What specific changes would people like?

In pushing for faster trains, the number of connections lost is huge. From Cork to Westport, the first arrival of the day is is 15:55(!), it could be 10:55.

The seem to not be stopping the PPT trains at Platform 10 and it seems Kishogue isn't opening.

One of the early morning Limerick Colbert to Heuston services should start at Ennis. Based on the draft timetable, the earliest arrival in Heuston from Ennis is 09:47 (via Athenry).

I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself Colm. This is purely a timetable change to get the PPT trains up and running, rather than a complete Heuston timetable change. The changes to other Heuston trains are just to let the PPT trains operate.

I wouldn't expect any major changes on the Heuston side until the ballast cleaning programme on the Dublin/Cork line is completed. At that point then I would be hoping for a recast. But that's not likely to happen until the end of next year.

P10 cannot be used as there is no crossover for trains heading north beyond it. Given the remote nature of the platform, the limited nature of the service, and the fact that Heuston still has the same level of service as before I don't really see any point.

[Colm Moore]

P10 cannot be used as there is no crossover for trains heading north beyond it.Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realise that the crossovers where in parallel instead of sequence. They need to move the crossover ... or build Platform 11. :) http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/53.34726/-6.30417

Given the remote nature of the platform,Not as remote as one might think - thousands of people live right next to it and many more pass right by on the bus.

the limited nature of the service, and the fact that Heuston still has the same level of service as before I don't really see any point.Where once we had two 'never the twain shall meet' networks* with dysfunctional links, we will now have one (heavy rail) network. Each additional node on the network is worth more than the previous one. The opportunities are vast and the investment needed is modest.

* The splitting of the networks only really happened in the 1980s when Galway services were moved to Heuston.

[berneyarms]

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realise that the crossovers where in parallel instead of sequence. They need to move the crossover ... or build Platform 11. :) http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/53.34726/-6.30417

Not as remote as one might think - thousands of people live right next to it and many more pass right by on the bus.

Where once we had two 'never the twain shall meet' networks* with dysfunctional links, we will now have one (heavy rail) network. Each additional node on the network is worth more than the previous one. The opportunities are vast and the investment needed is modest.

* The splitting of the networks only really happened in the 1980s when Galway services were moved to Heuston.

The cost of putting in a crossover and/or access to Conyngham Road would far outweigh the approved cost of the project. There is no clearance room either side of the tracks so what you would need would be an over-track concourse with very long ramps. Not cheap.

There needs to be an element of realism here - it's a low cost project.

If service levels improve significantly in the medium term then I'd agree with you but right now it ain't going to happen.

None of that is within the scope of this consultation frankly.

[Jamie2k9]

Remember submissions close on Monday.

[Jamie2k9]

21 November start date, loaded in JP.

[James Howard]

Have they worked out what they're going to charge people yet?

[Mark Gleeson]

Presumably they will use the fare zones per the recent fare determination with the existing fares.

Formal announcement should come Monday

[Kilocharlie]

Presumably they will use the fare zones per the recent fare determination with the existing fares.

Formal announcement should come Monday

Hopefully they'll have fares for P2P annuals as well.

[James Howard]

So here we are 10 days out before opening and nobody knows what using this new service is going to cost.

Imagine this scene in a private business.
1. I have a piece of infrastructure sitting semi-idle for around 100 years that I can't be bothered to use
2. My board of directors forces me to use this infrastructure and hands me some free money to tidy it up.
3. I invest said free money and tidy things up
4. I do service planning, make usage projections, allocate operational capacity, train staff, etc.
5. Then I decide what I'm going charge customers
6. I expect business to come flocking to me and new customers to all abandon my competitors who they've been dealing with for years.

Is it just me or would this not be an ideal way to go about doing business if one expected to be profitable and stay in business?

[Inniskeen]

Did anyone spot any changes from the original draft or was the public consultation simply a wasted exercise ?

Where has the extra rolling stock come from ? Is it simply stock released by resurrecting the MK4 ?

Anybody open a book on whether it will happen on November 21st given that Irish Rail have been stalling for months using the "we are reviewing the public consultation" excuse.

There are almost zero interchange opportunities with Heuston based Intercity services despite the availability of almost unlimited idle capacity at the expansive Kildare route stations.

Given the poor integration with Heuston services and the very limited opportunities to travel to/from stations beyond Hazelhatch the new service will largely depend on business generated by the inner stations between ParkWest and Hazelhatch. Might be a slow build up but time will tell !

[berneyarms]

So here we are 10 days out before opening and nobody knows what using this new service is going to cost.

Imagine this scene in a private business.
1. I have a piece of infrastructure sitting semi-idle for around 100 years that I can't be bothered to use
2. My board of directors forces me to use this infrastructure and hands me some free money to tidy it up.
3. I invest said free money and tidy things up
4. I do service planning, make usage projections, allocate operational capacity, train staff, etc.
5. Then I decide what I'm going charge customers
6. I expect business to come flocking to me and new customers to all abandon my competitors who they've been dealing with for years.

Is it just me or would this not be an ideal way to go about doing business if one expected to be profitable and stay in business?

The fares from Sallins inwards are all in the fare determination - the final page has the suburban fares matrix.

[Jamie2k9]

Did anyone spot any changes from the original draft or was the public consultation simply a wasted exercise ?

Out proposed changes all happened but:

17.25 (Limerick) remains the same (proposed 17.20 dep)
17.20 (Portlaoise) deferred to 17.28 (proposed 17.25 dep)
17.55 (Newbridge) remains the same (proposed to cancel)****
19.15 (ex Newbridge) cancelled (proposed to cancel-note stock from 17.55 operates this

****Note that 17.55 and 17.28 (ex GCD) are working the same path to Newbridge from Park West so either it is cancelled and a journey planner error. Given the 19.15 has been removed I expect it is canceled as the 18.10 is advanced to 18.05 as proposed ex Heuston.

The 17.28 change for the 17.20 is great, anytime I get the 14.50 ex Waterford its always up to 15 minutes late (14 minute turnaround between services) and and passengers don't even give you a chance to get off the train.

Where has the extra rolling stock come from ? Is it simply stock released by resurrecting the MK4 ?

Probably and likely an expectation that x service will see a drop in numbers and possible a re shuffle.

Anybody open a book on whether it will happen on November 21st given that Irish Rail have been stalling for months using the "we are reviewing the public consultation" excuse.

I suspect it's not all IE's fault for any delays happening...


There are almost zero interchange opportunities with Heuston based Intercity services despite the availability of almost unlimited idle capacity at the expansive Kildare route stations.

Given the poor integration with Heuston services and the very limited opportunities to travel to/from stations beyond Hazelhatch the new service will largely depend on business generated by the inner stations between ParkWest and Hazelhatch. Might be a slow build up but time will tell !

Given only a peak service I don't see how they could. IC passengers would be more annoyed if they added stops at peak hours to cater for a few. There is not real need for IC to connect. Speed to/from Heuston needs to be priority.

[Colm Moore]

Given only a peak service I don't see how they could. IC passengers would be more annoyed if they added stops at peak hours to cater for a few.But the vast majority of intercity passengers don't live / work / study across the road from Heuston - they are coming from somewhere else and many people would benefit form the possibility of getting a train from their local station and then a cross-platform change of trains to their destination.

[Jamie2k9]

But the vast majority of intercity passengers don't live / work / study across the road from Heuston - they are coming from somewhere else and many people would benefit form the possibility of getting a train from their local station and then a cross-platform change of trains to their destination.

Yes I'm sure it would, but I don't think it should not come at adding 3 minutes to a service.

It's not as if Heuston badly linked in terms of transport and every single train passenger doesn't need the opportunity to travel via PPT. Stopping all trains at Hazelhatch to connect is madness.

The Luas to Connolly, 145 more less at Tara and Pearse St.

What is the problem with transferring from IC to Commuter to Commuter/DART over IC, to Bus or Luas, to DART etc The actual time difference is minutes.

Also bear in mind it's the first set of services, I'm sure if there is a genuine case for such travel then they can more less swap/alter and operate hourly PPT to Portlaoise and maintain Heuston-Portlaoise with Cork/Limerick and shuttles as well next year.

[Inniskeen]

I wouldn't be stopping every service at Hazelhatch but I would certainly consider stopping Intercity services at either Parkwest or Clondalkin (for access to/from the M50 and to get some value from the empty car park and little used station).

Initially it would only make sense to stop services at the morning and evening peaks and then only where convenient connections can be readily created.

[Jamie2k9]

I wouldn't be stopping every service at Hazelhatch but I would certainly consider stopping Intercity services at either Parkwest or Clondalkin (for access to/from the M50 and to get some value from the empty car park and little used station).

Initially it would only make sense to stop services at the morning and evening peaks and then only where convenient connections can be readily created.

Fair enough could be some merit in it however I think it's not an immediate priority. Should just give the service a chance and prehaps review when there is an actual new schedule from Heuston in place.

[Eddie]

I think there will be a gradual switch of some road traffic from to GCD Kildare via PPT service, due to simpler direct service to North-South rail corridor and lower fare (inclusion into Leapcard zone for Naas).

[grainne whale]

But the vast majority of intercity passengers don't live / work / study across the road from Heuston - they are coming from somewhere else and many people would benefit form the possibility of getting a train from their local station and then a cross-platform change of trains to their destination. Actually there are a large no of people who find that Heuston is the best station for them : HSE, Revenue, Dublin City Council, Courts Service, St James Hospital, students/staff DIT. Trains running to GCD are of no use to them.

[Jamie2k9]

Phoenix Park Tunnel services

Seven new morning peak trains to Grand Canal Dock, and eight new evening peak trains from Grand Canal Dock begin on Monday 21st November, with limited stop services in the opposite direction:

Morning Peak

06.14 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock
06.50 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock
07.00 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock
07.20 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock
08.10 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock
08.35 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock
09.12 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock


07.25 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch*
07.49 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch*
08.10 Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge*


Evening peak

16.20 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch
16.40 Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge
17.00 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch
17.28 Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge
17.58 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch
18.16 Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge
18.40 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch
19.13 Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch


15.10 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock*
15.55 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock*
17.00 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock*
17.25 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock*
17.55 Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock*
17.57 Newbridge to Grand Canal Dock*

These services will serve all stations between Newbridge/Hazelhatch and Parkwest; and Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock, except those marked * which will serve limited stops – search the journey planner above for exact times. They will not serve Heuston Station – customers for Heuston should use existing trains between Newbridge/Hazelhatch and Heuston Station.

Services will also ensure connections at Hazelhatch/Newbridge for customers travelling on longer distance commuter services to/from stations such as Kildare, Portlaoise and others.

The new services give a new direct public transport connection between stations in south-west Dublin and north Kildare and the central business district between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock.

This is the first phase of services to operate via the Phoenix Park Tunnel. Iarnród Éireann and the National Transport Authority plan to expand services in the future to include off-peak and weekend services.

________


Commuter services

06.40 Heuston to Newbridge advanced to 06.35
08.30 Heuston to Portlaoise advanced to 08.25
17.20 Heuston to Portlaoise deferred to 17.28
17.55 Heuston to Newbridge cancelled
18.10 Heuston to Portlaoise advanced to 18.05 and calls additionally at Parkwest and Clondalkin Fonthill
18.55 Heuston to Portlaoise deferred to 19.05hrs
06.25 Portlaoise to Heuston operates 2 to 3 minutes earlier from Monasterevin onwards
06.30 Carlow to Heuston operates 2 to 4 minutes later from Newbridge onwards
07.20 Portlaoise to Heuston advanced to 07.17
19.30 Portlaoise to Heuston advanced to 19.17

Intercity services

18.00 and 19.00 Heuston to Cork: minor revisions to times at intermediate stations
06.45 Cork to Tralee advanced to 06.20
07.00 Tralee to Heuston deferred to 07.05
19.00 Ballybrophy to Limerick deferred to 19.05
19.38 Limerick Junction to Limerick deferred to 19.40
20.45 Limerick Junction to Limerick deferred to 20.47
06.05 Waterford to Heuston advanced to 06.00
09.25 Heuston to Galway additional stop at Oranmore
17.20 Galway to Heuston additional stops at Kildare and Newbridge

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/phoenixparktimes
______

Details in link of some customer feedback

[Kilocharlie]

20. PPT fares queries.

ADDRESSED: Travel to/from Drumcondra to GCD from stations on Heuston corridor will be within existing fare structures, with Leap fares distance based, and for cash Drumcondra to GCD treated as "city-centre add-on" as currently occurs with Luas services.

Looks like:
Leap - use new fares table
Cash - use city centre add-on fare

No info yet on Taxsaver P2P but, probably P2P + City Centre add-on at €430 per annum.

[berneyarms]

20. PPT fares queries.

ADDRESSED: Travel to/from Drumcondra to GCD from stations on Heuston corridor will be within existing fare structures, with Leap fares distance based, and for cash Drumcondra to GCD treated as "city-centre add-on" as currently occurs with Luas services.

Looks like:
Leap - use new fares table
Cash - use city centre add-on fare

No info yet on Taxsaver P2P but, probably P2P + City Centre add-on at €430 per annum.

For the short hop stations the fares for services through the PPT are in the new fares table in the fare determination (cash and LEAP), and is distance based.

For outside the short hop zone I read it as you will need the city centre add on in addition to a ticket to Heuston to travel to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse and GCD.

[Kilocharlie]

For the short hop stations the fares for services through the PPT are in the new fares table in the fare determination (cash and LEAP), and is distance based.

For outside the short hop zone I read it as you will need the city centre add on in addition to a ticket to Heuston to travel to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse and GCD.

Confirmed.

[ThomasJ]

Apologies for being the cynic . But I can see questions being raised in good time for why Kildare services can't use the midland line.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats the 37 million euro question

Lets be clear the track layout in place around Connolly works

Trains to/from Docklands can run in parallel with Phoenix Park Tunnel, so trains from Phoenix Park Tunnel are using capacity that could not be otherwise used

[Jamie2k9]

So launch looks to of gone rater well with minimal delays and some ticket issues. Suspect the 08.10 and 08.35 inbound services may need to be adjusted slightly as been held up at Park West because of late running IC services, time will tell.

[ThomasJ]

apparently inbound maynooth trains got held up near glasnevin junction and drumcondra this morning

[Mark Gleeson]

Quite a few Maynooth trains heavily delayed before reaching Glasnevin this morning, so can't be blamed

[Kilocharlie]

Some delays this evening with 15 and 25 min delays.

One service, 1758 ex GCD arrived 10 mins late in Hazlehatch at 1856 according to realtime but the connecting service to Portlaoise left on time at 1851. Therefore connecting passengers had a long 35 wait for the 1905 from Heuston. The next train, 1816 GCD-Newbridge was 25mins late. Probably a knock on effect of the DART delays.

Presumable IE don't want to disrupt Heuston services if a GCD is late. If the 1825 had been held for 10mins, it might have delayed the 1900 to Cork.

Looks like it could be complicated for those relying on connections.

[comcor]

Although there's a big car park there, I presume there would be some CPOs of houses required if anyone wanted to put in an additional terminating platform at Hazelhatch?

[Jamie2k9]

Although there's a big car park there, I presume there would be some CPOs of houses required if anyone wanted to put in an additional terminating platform at Hazelhatch?

Not really, couple of options such as replicating the bay platform at Nass end with a set of points (signal equipment located currently at the bridge).

I believe IE have a little land at Dublin end of car pack, there is 2-3 houses there no occupied

[grainne whale]

Not really, couple of options such as replicating the bay platform at Nass end with a set of points (signal equipment located currently at the bridge).

I believe IE have a little land at Dublin end of car pack, there is 2-3 houses there no occupied I think that they may have been sold a while ago, but not developed yet.

[Mark Gleeson]

The current arrangements in Hazelhatch would support a train every 15 minutes without issue

You also have a turn back at Adamstown which again could support a train every 15 minutes without issue.

And of course the platform in Newbridge

There is space for headhunt south of Hazelhatch is needed but no extra platform needed

Plenty of places to hide trains

Car park isn't exactly full at any station enroute

[ThomasJ]

There was a points failure this afternoon meaning maynooth line services had to use Newcomen junction and the midland line.

If this had've happened this evening.......

[berneyarms]

There was a points failure this afternoon meaning maynooth line services had to use Newcomen junction and the midland line.

If this had've happened this evening.......

I'm not sure what your point is?

Points failures can happen anywhere on the network from time to time and will cause disruption when they do.

Why you're particularly selecting the PPT services I don't know? if points fail at Howth Junction for example, Howth branch trains will be disrupted.

[James Howard]

Well given that the PPT services are in the public eye it's not unlikely that Irish Rail would have tried to save face by sending the PPT services down the midland line and had them do two reversals causing complete chaos for Maynooth services.

[ThomasJ]

Just read a comment from Irish rail on twitter that one of the afternoon peak Drogheda services now leaves pearse 3 minutes later to accommodate phoenix park services. Which seams fair enough but never highlighted unlike heuston services.

[berneyarms]

Well given that the PPT services are in the public eye it's not unlikely that Irish Rail would have tried to save face by sending the PPT services down the midland line and had them do two reversals causing complete chaos for Maynooth services.

Come on - that's just getting ridiculous.

There's a level of reasoned debate and frankly that's just nonsense, let alone impossible given the signalling constraints.

[Kilocharlie]

The 1728 GDC-Newbridge, a 4-car ICR, was over 90% loaded today. Not bad after less than 2 weeks.

Hazelhatch service lag a little behind in loading.

The 1805 Heston-Portlaoise has been upgraded to a 7-car; it is a amalgamation of the 1755 and 1810 trains. Presumably they needed the 1755 slot for the 1728 from GCD.

[Inniskeen]

It will be interesting to see how this service evolves. Given that 95% to 99% of commuters on the Heuston routes travel to/from stations beyond Hazelhatch, services to Hazelhatch only will continue to do limited busines.

I imagine that Grand Canal Dock trains will be progressively extended westward ultimately displacing much of the Heuston commuter service.

Either way the start has been very positive although punctuality is closer to the less than stellar DART pattern than what would heretifore have been the case from Heuston.

[berneyarms]

It will be interesting to see how this service evolves. Given that 95% to 99% of commuters on the Heuston routes travel to/from stations beyond Hazelhatch, services to Hazelhatch only will continue to do limited busines.

I imagine that Grand Canal Dock trains will be progressively extended westward ultimately displacing much of the Heuston commuter service.

Either way the start has been very positive although punctuality is closer to the less than stellar DART pattern than what would heretifore have been the case from Heuston.

It would be fair to say I think that the root cause of the timing problems (apart from the signal and points failures) has been the appalling performance of DART caused by the low rail adhesion - hopefully this should start to improve in the coming weeks.

They really need to consider a leaf fall DART timetable

[Jamie2k9]

For a line that is cleaned nightly and given the cold snap, leaf excuse is wearing very thin.....anyway we have a 10 minute DART to look forward to possibly by end of 2017 so PPT will turn into you typical commuter mess day in day out.

Yes this last week there was a few points faults causing problems (to be fair first in a while) but DART performance has not been acceptable for a long time. How many delays are caused by inadequate capacity?

[berneyarms]

For a line that is cleaned nightly and given the cold snap, leaf excuse is wearing very thin.....anyway we have a 10 minute DART to look forward to possibly by end of 2017 so PPT will turn into you typical commuter mess day in day out.

Yes this last week there was a few points faults causing problems (to be fair first in a while) but DART performance has not been acceptable for a long time. How many delays are caused by inadequate capacity?

Well look at the UK TOCs and you will see that they have been and still are being badly affected by leaf fall on lines that are being treated every day. The treatment helps but it doesn't eradicate it. It is still an issue and will be for a week or so more.

There shouldn't be capacity problems given the resignalling that has happened.

[Kilocharlie]

Either way the start has been very positive although punctuality is closer to the less than stellar DART pattern than what would heretofore have been the case from Heuston.

Trains have been typically 5 mins late at Drumcondra outbound but, so far, connections with Heuston-Portlaoise trains have been made on-time, at least when I used them. I wonder what's the limit before the connection will be broken?

The PIS at Drumcondra consistently shows a Maynooth service arriving 1st and then at the last minute switches to the Hazelhatch service. I suspect the Maynooth train is held at Connolly to allow the Hatch train to keep its schedule and the tight connections.

[Jamie2k9]

Well look at the UK TOCs and you will see that they have been and still are being badly affected by leaf fall on lines that are being treated every day. The treatment helps but it doesn't eradicate it. It is still an issue and will be for a week or so more.

There shouldn't be capacity problems given the resignalling that has happened.

I accept it's a problem but given the weather it's not good enough. If it was mild and wet it would in theory be much worse but I suspect we wouldn't notice any difference...

My capacity comment was in relation to dwell times at stations and is there adequate capacity been provided.

Trains have been typically 5 mins late at Drumcondra outbound but, so far, connections with Heuston-Portlaoise trains have been made on-time, at least when I used them. I wonder what's the limit before the connection will be broken?

The PIS at Drumcondra consistently shows a Maynooth service arriving 1st and then at the last minute switches to the Hazelhatch service. I suspect the Maynooth train is held at Connolly to allow the Hatch train to keep its schedule and the tight connections.

Most likely kept until they impact a Cork service!

Like all routes they have up to 5 minutes build into schedules at the end of journey.

[Kilocharlie]

Most likely kept until they impact a Cork service!

Like all routes they have up to 5 minutes build into schedules at the end of journey.

Exactly!

It's fairly obvious that there's a 5 min margin built into the run time between Drumcondra and Parkwest and the Portlaoise trains fairly dawdle between Fonthill and the Hatch, another 5 min delay is probably accommodated. But, as you say, once it begins to impact IC, esp Cork, then the connections will break leaving long waits for some.

[James Shields]

I got the 16:40 from GCD to Newbridge on Friday, as it happened to suit my weekend plans. Although we were about 5 mins late departing, and stopped at Heuston platform 10 for a couple of minutes, the rest of the journey ran smoothly, and the time was made back somewhere, as we arrived on time. The train was never heavily loaded, and there were plenty of empty seats, but I expect the later ones are busier. Anyway, I enjoyed taking a train through the PPT at last!

By the way, the RUI fare calculator says an adult single for this journey should be €16.75, but the TVM at GCD actually charged €14.45.

[Kilocharlie]

Exactly!

It's fairly obvious that there's a 5 min margin built into the run time between Drumcondra and Parkwest and the Portlaoise trains fairly dawdle between Fonthill and the Hatch, another 5 min delay is probably accommodated. But, as you say, once it begins to impact IC, esp Cork, then the connections will break leaving long waits for some.

Last week due to the 'sygnet' fault, the 1758 GCD-Hatch was 13 mins late leaving Drumcondra, but the connection with the 1825 Heuston-Portlaoise was maintained.

Experience is showing that delays of 10mins and even longer will not result in a missed connection which is vital for the success of the route. Without this tolerance, passengers beyond Newbridge would have a 40+min wait. The next train operates to Newbridge but without connections onwards (something to fixed in the future hopefully).

[James Shields]

Considering the service has to mesh with services out of Heuston, the Maynooth line and the Northern line, and problems on any of those lines could have a knock on affect, I can see a certain amount of padding is necessary. I'm impressed that there haven't been more teething problems.

[Inniskeen]

The new services are to a great extent immune from the frequently chaotic DART operation as they only share the short section of line between Grand Canal Dock and Connolly. Provided specific connections with DART are ignored they can be easily slotted in without either causing or being the victim of undue disruption.

In fact if there is a lesson to be drawn from the new service it is probably that Irish Rail should cease to hold Drogheda, Dundalk and Maynooth trains at Pearse to follow late running DART trains and at least salvage some semblance of a of a punctual service for not DART users.

While trains like the 1650 from Bray to Drogheda are convenient for some passengers, they are continuously disrupted by DART as are the 1705 & 1735 from Bray to Maynooth.

[James Shields]

In fact if there is a lesson to be drawn from the new service it is probably that Irish Rail should cease to hold Drogheda, Dundalk and Maynooth trains at Pearse to follow late running DART trains and at least salvage some semblance of a of a punctual service for not DART users.

I quite agree. There's nothing more annoying than when a northern line train gets held for a Malahide DART, which can easily add 15 minutes to the arrival time at the destination.

While trains like the 1650 from Bray to Drogheda are convenient for some passengers, they are continuously disrupted by DART as are the 1705 & 1735 from Bray to Maynooth.

I think the argument for them has been that there isn't enough parking space for all the trains required for the evening rush hour services. However, Newbridge services manage a quick turnaround at Grand Canal dock, and there would seem to be plenty of capacity to terminate some northern line/Maynooth services there.

I think stopping the direct services from Bray would be unpopular with a lot of commuters, but might make them realise they have a choice of more than one or two trains home.

James

[Kilocharlie]

For the short hop stations the fares for services through the PPT are in the new fares table in the fare determination (cash and LEAP), and is distance based.

For outside the short hop zone I read it as you will need the city centre add on in addition to a ticket to Heuston to travel to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse and GCD.

There's a story going around, not confirmed, that the city-centre add-on to P2P does not work at barriers other than Connolly and that IE are now suggesting that users get a P2P to Pearse since they can't/won't reprogramme the barriers.

If so that's bad news with my 2017 P2P+add-on ordered.

Any truth in this?

[Jamie2k9]

Took the PPT service this evening to try it out, 18.01 ex Pearse to Hazelhatch. It was on time until we were held for around 6 minutes north of Connolly because of a fault that caused a delay to the 18.05 to Longford. Had a slight stop coming out of Heuston because the 18.05 to Portlaoise didn't depart until 18.25, Connolly delay off set this stoppage.

18.01 was a very quiet service, had a 4 seater to myself, around 35-40 got off at Hazelhatch and maybe 15 joined the connection to Newbridge.

It was great not having please mind the gap and thank you for traveling with Iarnród Éireann at any intermediate stops. They have also removed it from Portlaoise services.

I'm going annoy them until it's removed off other services, I have succeeded in the past getting the pa cut down.

[Kilocharlie]

Took the PPT service this evening to try it out, 18.01 ex Pearse to Hazelhatch. It was on time until we were held for around 6 minutes north of Connolly because of a fault that caused a delay to the 18.05 to Longford. Had a slight stop coming out of Heuston because the 18.05 to Portlaoise didn't depart until 18.25, Connolly delay off set this stoppage.

18.01 was a very quiet service, had a 4 seater to myself, around 35-40 got off at Hazelhatch and maybe 15 joined the connection to Newbridge.

It was great not having please mind the gap and thank you for traveling with Iarnród Éireann at any intermediate stops. They have also removed it from Portlaoise services.

I'm going annoy them until it's removed off other services, I have succeeded in the past getting the pa cut down.

The 1801 (1758 ex GCD) connects with the 1825 from Heuston not the 1805. The 1758 is typically 5-10 mins late at Drumcondra but makes the connection with the 1825. Sounds like your trip was normal but I seen larger numbers that that.

[Jamie2k9]

The 1801 (1758 ex GCD) connects with the 1825 from Heuston not the 1805. The 1758 is typically 5-10 mins late at Drumcondra but makes the connection with the 1825. Sounds like your trip was normal but I seen larger numbers that that.

Yes I'm aware but just pointing out that the 18.05 didn't depart Heuston until 18.25 last night so we were stuck behind it.

[Kilocharlie]

There's a story going around, not confirmed, that the city-centre add-on to P2P does not work at barriers other than Connolly and that IE are now suggesting that users get a P2P to Pearse since they can't/won't reprogramme the barriers.

If so that's bad news with my 2017 P2P+add-on ordered.

Any truth in this?

Story has been confirmed by Irish Rail.

As a conclusion to this tale, all P2P tickets to Heuston with the City Centre add-on have been issued as P2P to GCD which includes the DB/Luas add-on starting on 1st Jan.

Mine worked correctly this morning.