What needs to happen to facilitate Kildare-Grand Canal Dock services?

[Colm Moore]

Big picture:
* Has the revised track at GCD been done?
* Where are we with the city-centre signalling system?
* A fare matrix needs to be compiled and ticket machines programmed.
* What rolling stock?
* Passenger information systems need re-doing.

Little picture:
* Do all stations from Heuston to Kildare have validators?
* Can the ticket machines at those stations sell / to-up Leap Cards?
* Route maps need re-doing.

[berneyarms]

Big picture:
* Has the revised track at GCD been done?
* Where are we with the city-centre signalling system?
* A fare matrix needs to be compiled and ticket machines programmed.
* What rolling stock?
* Passenger information systems need re-doing.

Little picture:
* Do all stations from Heuston to Kildare have validators?
* Can the ticket machines at those stations sell / to-up Leap Cards?
* Route maps need re-doing.

Top two (track and resignalling works) are in progress due for completion later in the summer - latest stage was completed over June Bank Holiday.

Fare matrix is already there - the existing one will just have to be integrated into the ticket machines - full suburban destinations added on both sides (Connolly and Heuston).

Rolling stock - ICRs cascaded by re-introduction of full Mark IV fleet and return of ICR from Belfast route and some minor rejigging.

PIS - No new stations so it *should* work, but given the issues in the past who knows?

The four stations to Hazelhatch are all fully LEAP compatible given they already are within the Short Hop zone.

LEAP PAYG won't be used beyond Hazelhatch so it's not so big an issue.

Route maps would, one would hope, be in the planning stage.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is an intercity fare matrix, the suburban matrix does not allow for single/return Hazelhatch Grand Canal Dock

[Colm Moore]

Fare matrix is already there - the existing one will just have to be integrated into the ticket machines - full suburban destinations added on both sides (Connolly and Heuston).Not to out knowledge. Current system insist that that at trip that covers the Connolly-Heuston gap is two trips.

PIS - No new stations so it *should* work, but given the issues in the past who knows?It's likely that there will be some programming involved.

LEAP PAYG won't be used beyond Hazelhatch so it's not so big an issue.But it could and should be. :)

[berneyarms]

Not to out knowledge. Current system insist that that at trip that covers the Connolly-Heuston gap is two trips.

It's likely that there will be some programming involved.

But it could and should be. :)

Fair point on the fares matrix.

The onboard PIS should just involve uploading the new train IDs on each ICR - something that happens whenever a new timetable is introduced.

Station PIS will be interesting.

I don't see the short hop zone being enlarged anytime soon, nor have there been any suggestions of increasing LEAP PAYG outside of it on Irish Rail.

[Kilocharlie]

Stations beyond Hazelhatch do not have validators or barriers active when the stations are closed. Also Sallins and Newbridge do have barriers on the upside entrances.
All stations beyond the 'hatch are firmly in the much more expensive point-to-point territory and I don't see IE giving up on that revenue soon.

[Colm Moore]

All stations beyond the 'hatch are firmly in the much more expensive point-to-point territory and I don't see IE giving up on that revenue soon.Perhaps, but (a) they no longer control fares and (b) while the discount for using Leap is substantial, the number of passengers should grow. The problem is someone getting on a commuter train in Grand Canal Dock not unreasonably expecting to be able to tag-off at the other end, seeing as they can use Leap on Bus Éireann commuter services.

[Kilocharlie]

Perhaps, but (a) they no longer control fares and (b) while the discount for using Leap is substantial, the number of passengers should grow. The problem is someone getting on a commuter train in Grand Canal Dock not unreasonably expecting to be able to tag-off at the other end, seeing as they can use Leap on Bus Éireann commuter services.

On BE you interact with the driver for either single or zonal ticket. Zonal would work fine too on IE since you wouldn't need to tag-off but single fares would be a problem.
Also, since one could board a Kildare train at GCD, all Leap cards would have to have a higher minimum credit than the €5 for the short-hop zone.

All a bit negative but extending Leap pay-as-you-go beyond the short hop zone without driver interaction as on BE means system wide changes to min credit and, of course, bigger penalties if you forget to tag-off. Or you would need a different Leap card with higher credit limit.

[berneyarms]

Perhaps, but (a) they no longer control fares and (b) while the discount for using Leap is substantial, the number of passengers should grow. The problem is someone getting on a commuter train in Grand Canal Dock not unreasonably expecting to be able to tag-off at the other end, seeing as they can use Leap on Bus Éireann commuter services.

How do passengers going to stations beyond Balbriggan boarding commuter trains at Grand Canal Dock cope so?

[James Shields]

How do passengers going to stations beyond Balbriggan boarding commuter trains at Grand Canal Dock cope so?

My taxsaver leap card has a Drogheda-Lansdowne Road point-to-point ticket loaded on it. I can tag of or off stations in that range without getting charged from my Leap card balance. I can also use other routes where Leap card is accepted and those fares get deducted from the balance.

However, pay as you go cards cannot be used beyond Balbriggan, only pre-paid monthly or yearly tickets.

James

[berneyarms]

My taxsaver leap card has a Drogheda-Lansdowne Road point-to-point ticket loaded on it. I can tag of or off stations in that range without getting charged from my Leap card balance. I can also use other routes where Leap card is accepted and those fares get deducted from the balance.

However, pay as you go cards cannot be used beyond Balbriggan, only pre-paid monthly or yearly tickets.

James

I know that!

I was making the point that people are actually able to understand that pay-as-you-go only goes as far as the Short Hop zone boundary.

Colm didn't seem to think that they could!

[Colm Moore]

The thing is, the maximum fare is already in excess of the deduction made when you tag-on.However, pay as you go cards cannot be used beyond Balbriggan, only pre-paid monthly or yearly tickets.I'm not so sure of this. As I understand it, validators were fitted in Drogheda from the start to allow for people who inadvertently do this.

[James Howard]

Given that nobody actually reads anything any more due to being continuously bombarded with small print, it is quite likely that a lot of Leap users don't understand that it only works within short hop.

Three years after signing up most people will have forgotten the limits the first time they try to use a leap card to get to Kilcock and find out they can't tag off.

[James Shields]

I'm not so sure of this. As I understand it, validators were fitted in Drogheda from the start to allow for people who inadvertently do this.

Yeah, I don't know what happens in that case, and would be curious to find out.

James

[Kilocharlie]

Here's a question?

What happens when a LEAP card with a Point-to-Point ticket and e-purse is presented at Pearse?

How does the system know that you are using the P2P (to Drogheda or Kildare) or want to take a DART to Bray or a commuter to Leixlip?
Does it depend in the tag-off point bearing in mind that many station soutside the Short-hop zone do have validator at all times?

or is this a case where separate LEAP cards are needed?

[James Shields]

If you've tagged on inside the P2P zone, and tag off outside, it knows where you tagged on and will deduct the correct fare. My P2P is Drogheda to Lansdowne Rd. I'm gone Pearse to Dun Laoghaire and it worked fine.

What I haven't tried yet is combining a P2P journey with a PAYG journey, such as Drogheda to Dun Laoghaire. I could see this causing problems as the journey could easily be over 90 minutes.

James

[Kilocharlie]

If you've tagged on inside the P2P zone, and tag off outside, it knows where you tagged on and will deduct the correct fare. My P2P is Drogheda to Lansdowne Rd. I'm gone Pearse to Dun Laoghaire and it worked fine.

What I haven't tried yet is combining a P2P journey with a PAYG journey, such as Drogheda to Dun Laoghaire. I could see this causing problems as the journey could easily be over 90 minutes.

James

But what happens if you don't tag-off? Some stations do not have active validators at all times - e.g Sallins only has validators for a few hours in the morning.

[James Shields]

But what happens if you don't tag-off? Some stations do not have active validators at all times - e.g Sallins only has validators for a few hours in the morning.

Pretty sure the system has no way of know you've left your P2P zone, and won't charge you. Certainly there have been times I haven't tagged off within Drogheda-Lansdowne Road and nothing has happened.

When you say validators "only has validators for a few hours", unless Sallins does something very different to other stations, the validators are available all the time, just with the doors open. You should always tag on when using a P2P ticket, otherwise your ticket won't show up on the RPU checkers. However, as far as I can tell, not tagging off incurs no penalty.

James

[Mark Gleeson]

This is the flaw in the leap system

There isn't a tag on/off machine at every station, so no way to allow journeys beyond the SHZ on cash

[Mark Gleeson]

This is the flaw in the leap system

There isn't a tag on/off machine at every station, so no way to allow journeys beyond the SHZ on cash

[James Howard]

Given the changes in commuting patterns over the the last 10 to 15 years, surely there is an argument for increasing the zones out to Portlaoise / Longford / Dundalk. Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

It is getting really quite seriously stupid to have to pay for a complete extra Dublin bus or Luas pass if your journey can't be completed on the heavy rail system. How this is justifiable is beyond me and it is a big reason for people making unnecessary car commutes.

It is the same argument as for the concert specials - we don't need proper fare integration (LEAP is not fare integration) because nobody uses multi-mode outside the Short Hop zone. AS an example, the Longford commuter service could be massively improved at zero cost to the taxpayer by simply allowing passholders free access to Bus Eireann expressway busses yet this is impossible because this is a "commercial" service.

[berneyarms]

Given the changes in commuting patterns over the the last 10 to 15 years, surely there is an argument for increasing the zones out to Portlaoise / Longford / Dundalk. Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

It is getting really quite seriously stupid to have to pay for a complete extra Dublin bus or Luas pass if your journey can't be completed on the heavy rail system. How this is justifiable is beyond me and it is a big reason for people making unnecessary car commutes.

It is the same argument as for the concert specials - we don't need proper fare integration (LEAP is not fare integration) because nobody uses multi-mode outside the Short Hop zone. AS an example, the Longford commuter service could be massively improved at zero cost to the taxpayer by simply allowing passholders free access to Bus Eireann expressway busses yet this is impossible because this is a "commercial" service.

While you'd have grounds for an argument with regard to a
combined Rail/BE PSO ticket option, expecting it to be free is a bit much.

As for Expressway what possible grounds could you have for expecting free travel on an unsubsidised commercial operation?

That's like expecting as a rail passenger free travel to/from Dundalk on Matthews Coaches.

[Traincustomer]

Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

There were indeed and the zonal map was published in the national Bus Éireann timetable book.

In terms of rail the outer limit of the Giant Hop (zone) was Mullingar with Maynooth at the start of the Short Hop (out of interest the corresponding Giant Hop outermost points on the bus corridors in that general area were Castlepollard, Kilbeggan and Virginia).

On the Northern Line Balbriggan, Gormanston, Drogheda and Dundalk were the outer stations of the Short, Medium, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

On the Kildare/Cork line Newbridge was in Long Hop with Kildare marking the outer Long Hop boundary. Carlow, Portlaoise & Tullamore were the outermost Giant Hop stations.

On the Rosslare Line Kilcoole, Wicklow and Gorey were the outer stations of the Short, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

Talking of Kilcoole it (not Greystones) is the true outpost of the Short Hop and it is disappointing that there is no validator there despite a Leap Card fare being advertised as available on the IÉ site.

What year will this be sorted out by? It's hardly an unreasonable ask.

[Kilocharlie]

Pretty sure the system has no way of know you've left your P2P zone, and won't charge you. Certainly there have been times I haven't tagged off within Drogheda-Lansdowne Road and nothing has happened.

When you say validators "only has validators for a few hours", unless Sallins does something very different to other stations, the validators are available all the time, just with the doors open. You should always tag on when using a P2P ticket, otherwise your ticket won't show up on the RPU checkers. However, as far as I can tell, not tagging off incurs no penalty.

James

Kildare has validators operation when the station is staffed. Many evenings, it is not staffed and the validators are behind closed doors, as they are at Sallins and Newbridge. As well, one of gatse is often left open and people just walk through without tag-on. This always happens when the staff are working with a freight train.
Unlike SHZ stations, there are no non-gate validators at Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare so tagging off is not available at all times.

I'm not talking about using cash (epurse) outside the SHZ. What I'm asking is, you tag on at Pearse, go to Bray but you have a P2P to Drogheda. When you tag off at Bray, are you then charged the cash fare from the epurse? And more importantly, if you tag on at Pearse, travel to Drogheda, don't tag-off, are you charged a cash fare do does it assume since you have a P2P that it is what's used?

Perhaps adding P2P to Leap wasn't such a wise move?

[Mark Gleeson]

As of this morning, we are go for Kildare - GCD.

Track and signalling is complete.

The two remaining unknowns
1. Fares
2. Platform CIS systems, will be the first time for a scheduled service that crosses from the mainline-suburban CTC with CIS on both sides

[berneyarms]

As of this morning, we are go for Kildare - GCD.

Track and signalling is complete.

The two remaining unknowns
1. Fares
2. Platform CIS systems, will be the first time for a scheduled service that crosses from the mainline-suburban CTC with CIS on both sides

Driver training may still be ongoing also.

[berneyarms]

Kildare has validators operation when the station is staffed. Many evenings, it is not staffed and the validators are behind closed doors, as they are at Sallins and Newbridge. As well, one of gatse is often left open and people just walk through without tag-on. This always happens when the staff are working with a freight train.
Unlike SHZ stations, there are no non-gate validators at Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare so tagging off is not available at all times.

I'm not talking about using cash (epurse) outside the SHZ. What I'm asking is, you tag on at Pearse, go to Bray but you have a P2P to Drogheda. When you tag off at Bray, are you then charged the cash fare from the epurse? And more importantly, if you tag on at Pearse, travel to Drogheda, don't tag-off, are you charged a cash fare do does it assume since you have a P2P that it is what's used?

Perhaps adding P2P to Leap wasn't such a wise move?

If you go to Bray from Pearse and tag on and off it will use the epurse.

If you get on at Pearse and don't tag off it'll assume you're using the point to point ticket.

[Jamie2k9]

Driver training may still be ongoing also.

Believe Connolly-GCD but it won't take long to clear them.

[Kilocharlie]

All we need now is a timetable...

[Kilocharlie]

If you go to Bray from Pearse and tag on and off it will use the epurse.

If you get on at Pearse and don't tag off it'll assume you're using the point to point ticket.

Suppose you get tag on at Bray, change at GCD and don't tag off at your p2p station?

[Jamie2k9]

All we need now is a timetable...

Heuston works not scheduled to finish until 5 November, hard to see anything before that and at that they should wait until 11 December to introduce a new schedule and bring the mess of producing a timetable whenever you feel like to an end.

People lived without PPT for years a few more weeks won't do any harm.

Kilocharlie do you plan to use the service, looking at an 60-65 minutes Kildare-GCD based on a test 40 minute schedule put into JP from Adamtwon-GCD with a 40 minute time. That is if it goes to Kildare.

[Mark Gleeson]

Heuston side works have no impact as full service to Hazelhatch is possible on all days of work, should in theory be full to Newbridge.

October was the commitment

Driver training was held up until the final track layout in Grand Canal Dock, Heuston Connolly is already covered as a normal route for anyone who has entered the driving grade in the last decade

[Jamie2k9]

Heuston side works have no impact as full service to Hazelhatch is possible on all days of work, should in theory be full to Newbridge.

October was the commitment

Driver training was held up until the final track layout in Grand Canal Dock, Heuston Connolly is already covered as a normal route for anyone who has entered the driving grade in the last decade

Perhaps freeing up stock could be problematic at times, Mark IV back on Cork not going help a lot.

[berneyarms]

Suppose you get tag on at Bray, change at GCD and don't tag off at your p2p station?

Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

It's your responsibility to have a valid ticket.

[Kilocharlie]

Kilocharlie do you plan to use the service, looking at an 60-65 minutes Kildare-GCD based on a test 40 minute schedule put into JP from Adamtwon-GCD with a 40 minute time. That is if it goes to Kildare.

Yes if Kildare is served at least at peak hours. But I'd need to know early Nov for Annual Taxsaver renewal. No good if it terminates at Newbridge.

[Inniskeen]

Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

It's your responsibility to have a valid ticket.

While this discussion is somewhat academic for most, I suspect that a court might take the view that a valid leap card with adequate credit and a valid point to point ticket is indeed a valid ticket. Surely the system should simply take the maximum leap fare or more intelligently the fare to the point where the point to point ticket becomes valid.

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused. I have both a leap card and a separarate Irish Rail smart card and frankly wouldn't trust the current setup to properly distinguish between the two and would never put value on the Irish Rail smart card even if it allowed me !

[grainne whale]

Yes if Kildare is served at least at peak hours. But I'd need to know early Nov for Annual Taxsaver renewal. No good if it terminates at Newbridge. Yes I have more or less the same problem. I work on Wood Quay, and commute to and from Hazelhatch, I also use the feeder bus to / from Celbridge. Trains serving Connolly / Grand Canal Dock are no use to me. I would like to see a provisional timetable published before I renew my Annual Taxsaver Rail - this date is about mid October in my workplace. Otherwise I shall have to travel by Dublin Bus. To be honest I have been travelling to my workplace since 1997 by train as I prefer that mode of transport - I also enjoy the walk to my office to / from Heuston each day.

[James Howard]

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused.

Most successful businesses adopt a mantra of "The customer is always right". If the customer is making mistakes due to over-complex systems, the systems should be simplified. It is absurd to have a system that requires that the passenger get off the train to validate their ticket in Pearse.

Leap is just a ludicrously complicated mess in terms of managing tickets. It is crazy that you need to be able to keep up to six active tickets on your card. The whole model needs to be scrapped and replaced with a proper zonal system.

[James Shields]

Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

If I get the 16:50 from Bray to Drogheda, how would I tag off at Pearse? Is the system not smart enough to recognise when I tag off at Drogheda and charge me only for the part my P2P ticket doesn't cover?

James

[berneyarms]

While this discussion is somewhat academic for most, I suspect that a court might take the view that a valid leap card with adequate credit and a valid point to point ticket is indeed a valid ticket. Surely the system should simply take the maximum leap fare or more intelligently the fare to the point where the point to point ticket becomes valid.

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused. I have both a leap card and a separarate Irish Rail smart card and frankly wouldn't trust the current setup to properly distinguish between the two and would never put value on the Irish Rail smart card even if it allowed me !

Well I was just pointing out what the customer *should* do to be charged the correct fare.

[berneyarms]

If I get the 16:50 from Bray to Drogheda, how would I tag off at Pearse? Is the system not smart enough to recognise when I tag off at Drogheda and charge me only for the part my P2P ticket doesn't cover?

James

Well you'll be charged the maximum short hop fare and your P2P ticket will cover the rest I would imagine.

It can't know where you got off using the epurse - it needs to tag off.

[Inniskeen]

Well you'll be charged the maximum short hop fare and your P2P ticket will cover the rest I would imagine.

It can't know where you got off using the epurse - it needs to tag off.

It could use the onboard info to make a logical deduction !

[James Shields]

It can't know where you got off using the epurse - it needs to tag off.

It knows I tagged off in Drogheda. It knows I tagged on in Bray. It should also know that the only way I could get to Drogheda is on the Pearse-Drogheda route covered by my P2P card, and only charge for the part that's not covered (Bray-Lansdowne Road in my case).

If there are direct trains, and a single ticket covers the journey, I should not be expected to tag out and in mid way.

This effectively means I can't use direct trains from south of Lansdowne, since I would need to get off in Pearse to tag off and on. I suppose if you picked your seat carefully and didn't mind standing from Pearse on, you might be able to hop off, tag out and in, and hop on again.

What happens in the other direction, if I tag on in Drogheda and tag off in Bray?

[berneyarms]

It knows I tagged off in Drogheda. It knows I tagged on in Bray. It should also know that the only way I could get to Drogheda is on the Pearse-Drogheda route covered by my P2P card, and only charge for the part that's not covered (Bray-Lansdowne Road in my case).

If there are direct trains, and a single ticket covers the journey, I should not be expected to tag out and in mid way.

This effectively means I can't use direct trains from south of Lansdowne, since I would need to get off in Pearse to tag off and on. I suppose if you picked your seat carefully and didn't mind standing from Pearse on, you might be able to hop off, tag out and in, and hop on again.

What happens in the other direction, if I tag on in Drogheda and tag off in Bray?

The problem is that the purse and the ticket are two separate products - the card is not that smart - you either use one or the other but not both at the same time.

The fundamental issue is that the epurse is only valid within the Short Hop zone - until that changes you have to tag on/off within the short hop zone for the appropriate fare to be deducted. Whether that will change is down to the NTA.

If you didn't want to tag off the epurse and tag on the ticket, you would either have to grin and bear it and pay the higher LEAP fare from the epurse or buy a Bray-Pearse ticket in Bray from a ticket machine.

[James Shields]

For an experiment (and because I needed to go there), I took a DART from Grand Canal Dock to Howth.

I tagged on as normal, but when I tagged off in Howth if didn't consider I'd tagged on, so charged me the maximum fare of €4.90. That's not very smart!

I called Leap Card helpline and explained what had happened and they checked the correct fare for the part my P2P doesn't cover, Howth Junction to Howth (€1.73), and issued a refund for the difference, so it all worked out fine, but why can't the system be smart enough to do this automatically?

Is there a way to tell it I'm tagging on the PAYG rather than the P2P?

James

[Mark Gleeson]

Sadly not, the system unlike London is not closed and not zonal. Every single Oyster station in London has a validator, so every journey starts and ends in a specific zone so the fare calc is really easy.

Leap could be programmed such that it calculate the fare and then deducts the fare where a valid pass was held. This gets messy imagine

Grand Canal Dock - Maynooth where a Pearse - Dundalk ticket was held

You would have to charge GCD Maynooth and deduct Pearse Connolly or do you charge GCD- Pearse and Connolly-Maynooth?

Advent of Kildare GCD will really confuse matters as all kinds of permutations will arise, technically Heuston and Connolly are the same place for the ticketing system, but if you get off at Drumcondra...

[Jamie2k9]

Problem with Irish Rail and technology is the long period of "planning" to do x and launching x. When they do get around to launching it, technology has moved on and the cycle just keeps happening over and over again.

It's like E Tickets for barriers, should of been launched 18 months ago yet it will probably be another 18 months before they are.

While London is been discussed, the ticket barriers over there are much less sensitive to paper ticketing and they actually open and close with the flow of people yet over here tickets are constantly rejected a dozen times before you can actually remove and try again, any bend they will not work and so.

The same with Oyaster Cards can read them quickly and not having to tap lots times like over here. Free Travel Cards are another disastor, 10 times worse than using Leap cards at readers along Luas lines. Over here you need to put ticket/card onto machine and wait a couple of seconds after ticket comes out for gates to open.

As the saying goes, buy cheap get cheap and that's exactly what IE and our whole transport system is about.

I ream we can't even get accurate train data but of course IE are testing a new GPS system which won't work because Wi-Fi coverage is rubbish.

[Inniskeen]

Jamie,

You are perhaps exaggerating a little but the essential points are correct. We need to advance a decade or two towards making the system more flexible (easy to buy a ticket online from Limerick to Belfast or Sligo to Wexford or Bray to Galway).

Likewise it should be easy to buy an online ticket from Skerries to Blackrock or Shankill to Portmarnock which would have to be tagged on in some fashion either online or at the barriers. Each ticket might need a rather large pseudo random code and a time limit to avoid misuse.

[James Howard]

As the saying goes, buy cheap get cheap and that's exactly what IE and our whole transport system is about.


The problem is that Leap wasn't cheap. It ended up costing tens of millions of euro. As an engineer, I'd suggest the fundamental issue with Leap is that the underlying requirements are too complex. It is completely bonkers that you need to run up to 6 simultaneous tickets on the card. They should have taken the opportunity to simplify the fare structure.

With all the delays during its development phase, Leap was basically obsolete by the time it came out. Oyster is on the way out now to be replaced by virtual cards on debit cards. In 2016, mobile phone ticketing should be high up on the agenda yet it doesn't even enter into the discussion. Given that it is possible to top up your Leap card with an Android phone, surely making you android phone be your leap card or Intercity ticket isn't outside the laws of physics.

I'm guessing that because our ticketing is so complex, that pretty much everything about Leap was developed from scratch rather than bought in as a solution so to change anything costs an absolute fortune. So we'll probably still be unable to open a barrier with our smart-watches / wrist implants / brainwave amplifiers or whatever in the 2040s.

[James Shields]

So, getting back to the original topic...

Grand Canal Dock is now using platform 1. Platform 2 has a buffer and only connects in a northerly direction. This is all that's needed to facilitate terminating trains from Kildare/Maynooth/Drogheda. Is that the final planned state for the platform?

Is the resignalling work finished? I noticed yesterday the 16:44 to Drogheda was almost on time despite the 16:37 to Maynooth being several minutes late ahead of it, and seemed to arrive much closer behind the Maynooth train than it has in the past. Is that the result of improved signalling?

Will GCD only be used to terminate Kildare trains, or will Maynooth and Drogheda trains also use it?

Will there be adequate notice of new timetables? As mentioned already, it could have a significant impact on people renewing annual tickets.

James

[Jamie2k9]

You are perhaps exaggerating a little but the essential points are correct.

Ok maybe a little :) but a useful immediate change would be TMV tickets are the same paper as ticker office ones which are paper, the TMV ones have a shiny plastic type coating over them and bits sticking out at the end and cause more issues than standard paper.

We need to advance a decade or two towards making the system more flexible (easy to buy a ticket online from Limerick to Belfast or Sligo to Wexford or Bray to Galway).

Reasonable ticket office prices would be sufficient stop gap in the meantime.

With all the delays during its development phase, Leap was basically obsolete by the time it came out.

Like most things in Ireland.

I'm guessing that because our ticketing is so complex, that pretty much everything about Leap was developed from scratch rather than bought in as a solution so to change anything costs an absolute fortune. So we'll probably still be unable to open a barrier with our smart-watches / wrist implants / brainwave amplifiers or whatever in the 2040s.

It's complex because IE or the NTA are not willing/prepared to sort it out in a reasonable time frame.

We need a new system that is simple, efficient and encourages more usage of services. Just take the Leap Card it should be possible to use it out to Kildare/Drogheda however IE don't want the fare loss (fair enough) and the NTA are not prepared to (possibly not able to) to mitigate the impact to IE and offer the service. Most people would be quiet happy to save a few euro per week and been able to tag on off instead of having to go pay for tickets and it would also help with people not paying fares to an extent.

I know it's not as clear cut as doing it but you can be sure there is not the will from all sides to do much about it either.

[markpb]

The problem is that Leap wasn't cheap. It ended up costing tens of millions of euro. As an engineer, I'd suggest the fundamental issue with Leap is that the underlying requirements are too complex. ... I'm guessing that because our ticketing is so complex, that pretty much everything about Leap was developed from scratch rather than bought in as a solution so to change anything costs an absolute fortune.

Bingo. The group running the Leapcard project had the authority to implement Leapcard but couldn't enforce any changes on the operators. I've never understood why this wasn't seen as a prerequisite. Trying to mould a smartcard around the ticketing crud that had built up over the decades was an impossible job.

Given that it is possible to top up your Leap card with an Android phone, surely making you android phone be your leap card or Intercity ticket isn't outside the laws of physics.

Topping up a leapcard using NFC is relatively simple. Putting a leapcard onto a phone and exposing it using NFC is completely different. At a minimum, it would require a secure element on the phone (which Android doesn't have and Apple won't let you use) or an active internet connection. Relying on an internet connection to validate a ticket when boarding a bus would be a really poor customer experience.

[Jamie2k9]

Bingo. The group running the Leapcard project had the authority to implement Leapcard but couldn't enforce any changes on the operators. I've never understood why this wasn't seen as a prerequisite. Trying to mould a smartcard around the ticketing crud that had built up over the decades was an impossible job.

So flawed project form day 1, not that is a big shock :rolleyes:

Relying on an internet connection to validate a ticket when boarding a bus would be a really poor customer experience.

That's why you have products such as Apple Wallet which for example airlines apps are comparable to download boarding passes.

[Kilocharlie]

So flawed project form day 1, not that is a big shock :rolleyes:



That's why you have products such as Apple Wallet which for example airlines apps are comparable to download boarding passes.

And Apple take 30% of the transactions....

[Jamie2k9]

And Apple take 30% of the transactions....

30% for downloading a boarding pass and storing it, I don't mean purchase through the wallet.

Anyway the main point was the slow planning and how most of what they launch is obsolete.

[markpb]

That's why you have products such as Apple Wallet which for example airlines apps are comparable to download boarding passes.

All Apple Wallet does is present a barcode to a device which is itself centrally connected. You haven't solved the problem, just moved it upstream. If you want a transit ticket on a mobile device that doesn't have SE, then either the phone or the validator needs an Internet connection. Secure Element is the way forward, it's just going to take some time.

FWIW, there's a massive downside to putting transit tickets on a phone. Battery life.

[James Shields]

FWIW, there's a massive downside to putting transit tickets on a phone. Battery life.

Agreed. I've had too many experiences of my phone being on its last legs as I board a plane to ever risk travelling without a paper boarding card!

James

[Jamie2k9]

Oh come on.....battery life would we like the driver to hold our hands getting on the bus/train?

I mean seriously you are responsible for how you produce a ticket to travel so you and only you will make that decision. If you decide to use a phone then you ensure you can produce it or expect to pay for a new one.

[James Howard]

Lack of network is hardly a big issue in and around Dublin city. You've generally got a connection from the phone itself and a connection belonging to the bus. You could probably build a system to fall back to text messages if both failed. Lack of battery is a solvable problem - I personally keep a backup battery in my day-pack that I carry with me every day.

But it's hardly relevant to the matter under discussion which is that would appear that Dublin commuter ticketing is a complete dogs dinner especially when it involves journeys more than 20 km away from the city centre and more than one railway line. Which will become a much bigger problem once you can actually transfer between railway lines without leaving a station.

I'd suggest that while it isn't a deal breaker for starting up the new service, it will become obvious really soon that something is going to have to be done about properly integrating ticketing. This will get even worse when BXD opens. I'd suggest that the usefulness of both the PPT route and BXD will be seriously diminished by the expense and messiness of through ticketing using these routes.

[James Shields]

In the same way that computer applications expand to fill the available memory and disk space, it's also true that mobile phone applications expand to consume the phone's available power! It's very easy to find your phone running low at the end of a night out. At present that just means you can't catch up with Facebook or catch silly pokemon on the way home, but if you find you can't get on the train either, that's a real problem.

But it's a completely separate problem from the one of our insane non-zonal fare system. It really needs the DOT/TFI to impose a common zone system on the main transport operators along with sensible transfers. For example, if a passenger takes a train from Maynooth to Broombridge, then changes to a Luas to Stephen's Green, they should be charged a single fare for the whole journey, and the system should work out how much of that fare should go to each operator.

James

[James Howard]

But it's a completely separate problem from the one of our insane non-zonal fare system. It really needs the DOT/TFI to impose a common zone system on the main transport operators along with sensible transfers. For example, if a passenger takes a train from Maynooth to Broombridge, then changes to a Luas to Stephen's Green, they should be charged a single fare for the whole journey, and the system should work out how much of that fare should go to each operator.

I couldn't agree more. Where it gets even madder is that this is somewhat possible through a combo short hop combo Bus/Rail/Luas (or any permutation thereof) yet if you live 6km down the line in Kilcock you have to buy two tickets. So you basically need to add a €1,200 annual point-to-point between Maynooth and Kilcock to a short hop ticket to achieve a Kilcock to Sandyford commute. Most people will take about 11 seconds to figure out that the car is a better deal.

[Jamie2k9]

Schedule has slipped on IE website. Services running ex Newbridge with some using turn back at Hazelhatch at peak hours. 1h-1h10m average.

Slightly lather last departure of 23.24 (GCD) compared to ex 23.10 Heuston.

Mon-Fri schedule only showing, will likely be gone by morning.

[luasifer]

Any word on the off peak and weekend services improvements on the Phoenix Park Tunnel route? What about the Maynooth line? Off peak services on the Maynooth and Kildare lines are terrible at the moment

[Jamie2k9]

Well driver training has only started and if IE expect the DART not to start until September/October then Maynooth/GCD won't happen before then either.