Rail Users Ireland Proposals

[Thomas J Stamp]

Our own proposals, which have been submitted to the parties, are here

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2016&no=1.html

As an organisation we have submitted them to the parties, knowing the difference between a manifesto and a programme for government.

We are at the early stages of formulating a structure for greater lobbying of the political parties for which we will be needing member participation.

[James Shields]

Overall that's very good, but there seem to be some character encoding errors with "system’s" and "An Garda SÃ*ochána". Perhaps these could be fixed?

Also, I would like to see a stronger statement on DART Underground and some mention of Metro North, particularly that both projects are "shovel ready" and would bring a massive boost to the economy of the city during construction, and promote growth and development when completed. Also that borrowing is readily available now, which wasn't the case when the projects were shelved.

I know people here have reservations, particularly about Metro North, but both projects could be started now and would massively improve the city's infrastructure, and any alternative would likely delay the start of construction by at least 5 years.

James

[berneyarms]

I'm not really sure about the Phoenix Park Tunnel issue.

What has been stated is that there will be an hourly off-peak train and two trains per hour at peak times. What's yet to become clear is where these trains will start from on the Kildare line.

My understanding is that additional funding has been agreed with the NTA to push the remaining Mark 4 sets back into use to facilitate rolling stock for the service, in the same way as they are increasing funding to facilitate the 10 minute DART service. There is plenty of time to do this yet.

In terms of timetable consultation, I'm not really sure where you're coming from on this?

A further new Connolly timetable will be needed (after the one currently being consulted upon) when this is to be launched, as the city centre resignalling will have be completed, and a new Heuston timetable will also be needed.

There will have to be another full consultation at that time on those timetables.

[Mark Gleeson]

For something so significant there hasn't been a peep about what the plan actually is

There are no trains to run the service, and it will take quite a while to overhaul the 2700 fleet not to mention the cash to do so. It is entering the danger zone where some excuse will appear and it will be postponed again (just like it was in 1995)

[berneyarms]

For something so significant there hasn't been a peep about what the plan actually is

There are no trains to run the service, and it will take quite a while to overhaul the 2700 fleet not to mention the cash to do so. It is entering the danger zone where some excuse will appear and it will be postponed again (just like it was in 1995)

Not true - bear in mind that there are two sets out for the AWS project (a 22k and a 29k) which should be back in general use by then, and bringing the remaining Mark 4 sets back into service will release sets as well.

My understanding is that the NTA are funding that as part of the project.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 22k test set is in service, its 22001/22002, fixed coupled with the CAWS/ATP hybrid cabs in the middle

The 29k set may be the one with the floor ripped up in one coach to investigate the fleet wide issue

To run Kildare - Grand Canal Dock will need 4 sets at least, so that 4 4 coach sets, no way the existing fleet can stretch to meet this

Internally Irish Rail is fishing for funds for 10-20 of the 2700's

Bear in mind the lead time is significant even if the cash arrived today to get the raw materials and parts. The 2700's need a full overhaul, new wheelsets and probably new radio units for GSMR. 2700 units would go to Limerick, 2800 back to Dublin.

[Jamie2k9]

My understanding is that additional funding has been agreed with the NTA to push the remaining Mark 4 sets back into use to facilitate rolling stock for the service

Not going to happen unless Mark 4 move to other routes, you will not see one on the 05.50 or 06.15 service for a range of reasons including time, demand and requirement of additional service. 07.00 ex Tralee is the only other reliable option for them but give it operates conferrable with a 5 coach commercially running a Mark IV may not add up.

Money shouldn't really be an issue for them as they have done very little work in 10 years.

What has been stated is that there will be an hourly off-peak train and two trains per hour at peak times. What's yet to become clear is where these trains will start from on the Kildare line.

Kildare

Not true - bear in mind that there are two sets out for the AWS project (a 22k and a 29k) which should be back in general use by then, and bringing the remaining Mark 4 sets back into service will release sets as well.

My understanding is that the NTA are funding that as part of the project.

The AWS 22 set is in full service but cannot be split as both are joined with cabs equipped for AWS. I would imagine the same applies to the 2900?

There is some questionable loads on one or two existing commuter services into Heuston in the mornings. Getting some commuter off Galway/Waterford could free up sets as well.

[berneyarms]

Thanks for the correction on the 22k AWS set - I wasn't aware of that.

But, as suggested - what's stopping them using the Mark 4 sets on other services before going onto Dublin-Cork, say either some of the morning Portlaoise or Carlow commuter services for example?

Either way - I suspect you could find enough sets by bringing the remaining Mark 4 sets back into service and rejigging the ICR rosters a bit. It would be tight but I suspect it's just about doable.

Can you point me to where (anywhere) it has definitively been stated that these services will commence at Kildare? I've not seen that and given we have yet to see timetable proposals I'm not sure I'd take that as gospel.

[Jamie2k9]

Thanks for the correction on the 22k AWS set - I wasn't aware of that.

But, as suggested - what's stopping them using the Mark 4 sets on other services before going onto Dublin-Cork, say either some of the morning Portlaoise or Carlow commuter services for example?

Either way - I suspect you could find enough sets by bringing the remaining Mark 4 sets back into service and rejigging the ICR rosters a bit. It would be tight but I suspect it's just about doable.

Can you point me to where (anywhere) it has definitively been stated that these services will commence at Kildare? I've not seen that and given we have yet to see timetable proposals I'm not sure I'd take that as gospel.

In theory nothing stopping Mark 4 (once cleared) been used however if ti's a stopping service such as morning ex Limerick/Carlow/Portlaoise it will likely increase times and may require increased spacing as they are slowing to accelerate.

Looking at current Cork timetable 4 stops =2h35m, 6 stops =2h45m, an ICR doing 6 stops timetabled for 2h40m.

They could find sets but far from ideal operationally and could impact ability to respond to demand quickly.

As for the Kildare reference, I think it was directly from NTA?

[Mark Gleeson]

The Mk4 sets are fine if you can fill them and they also need major overhaul.

On a 3/4 stop run the Mk4 with a full set of 8 and a good load is cheaper to run than a 8 coach ICR and can keep time. Long before Kildare route, Limerick Junction, Portarlingon and Ballybrophy works 4 stops and 2:35 was not a problem to a Mk4. It is a long distance with few stops machine

ICR is king when you need to stop/start, 50% powered axles, EP brakes.

We need more trains otherwise its deckchairs on the titanic moving limited resources around to try to find some magic equilibrium.

NTA said Kildare, and since Hazelhatch is in Dublin (but the car park is Kildare) we have to assume they mean the town of Kildare. NTA call the shots and if they want the train to run hourly 24-7 thats what will happen as they are writing the cheques.

[James Howard]

There are 12 29K commuter cars devoted to Longford that could be easily be replaced with about 7 22Ks if they were freed up by Mark 4s on Cork. These cars are not suited at all for the 2 hour journey to Connolly.

Irish Rail would need to be willing to have them operate limited stops between Maynooth and Connolly which might be a bit difficult on the 615 but the earlier train should be easy enough.

It seem ludicrous to even suggest new units when there is so much relatively new stuff sitting around. But that's the way we roll in Ireland. Once the purse strings are loosened at all Irish Rail will go on another buying spree and start letting 29Ks rot.

[berneyarms]

The Mk4 sets are fine if you can fill them and they also need major overhaul.

On a 3/4 stop run the Mk4 with a full set of 8 and a good load is cheaper to run than a 8 coach ICR and can keep time. Long before Kildare route, Limerick Junction, Portarlingon and Ballybrophy works 4 stops and 2:35 was not a problem to a Mk4. It is a long distance with few stops machine

ICR is king when you need to stop/start, 50% powered axles, EP brakes.

We need more trains otherwise its deckchairs on the titanic moving limited resources around to try to find some magic equilibrium.

NTA said Kildare, and since Hazelhatch is in Dublin (but the car park is Kildare) we have to assume they mean the town of Kildare. NTA call the shots and if they want the train to run hourly 24-7 thats what will happen as they are writing the cheques.

I'd agree with you - ideally they need half of the 2700s back in service to release the 2800s.

Obviously the NTA call the shots - at this stage I think we all know that. But I wouldn't necessarily take it as gospel. The NTA don't have pathing / timetabling experts, and as such rely on IE to do it - so Newbridge for example might be more practical with the bay platform.

I suspect that we will have to wait until summer when the detailed planning should start for the timetables for this to get a better picture.

[berneyarms]

There are 12 29K commuter cars devoted to Longford that could be easily be replaced with about 7 22Ks if they were freed up by Mark 4s on Cork. These cars are not suited at all for the 2 hour journey to Connolly.

Irish Rail would need to be willing to have them operate limited stops between Maynooth and Connolly which might be a bit difficult on the 615 but the earlier train should be easy enough.

It seem ludicrous to even suggest new units when there is so much relatively new stuff sitting around. But that's the way we roll in Ireland. Once the purse strings are loosened at all Irish Rail will go on another buying spree and start letting 29Ks rot.

I don't think anyone is suggesting new trains - just getting the Mark 4 sets and the 2700s back in service.

[Jamie2k9]

The Mk4 sets are fine if you can fill them and they also need major overhaul.

Again, its not long since CAF carried out work after they fell apart. IE did some inside works recently.

The NTA don't have pathing / timetabling experts, and as such rely on IE to do it

Are you suggesting IE have experts after the mess they produced for Connolly in November :rolleyes:

[berneyarms]

Are you suggesting IE have experts after the mess they produced for Connolly in November :rolleyes:

To be fair - the schedulers were (from what I could see) doing what was asked of them either by their IE masters or the NTA.

Looking at it in detail, it was clear that they went to fairly major lengths to try and make it workable - another poster here agreed with that.

The problems with that schedule are down to the proposed frequency planned for DART, which is causing longer journey times on the Belfast, northern line, and Rosslare line services to take longer, and (in the case of Sligo) longer sectional running times which are presumably down to changes in the permanent speed restrictions.

That's not really something that the schedulers can do a lot about.

[Jamie2k9]

To be fair - the schedulers were (from what I could see) doing what was asked of them either by their IE masters or the NTA.

Looking at it in detail, it was clear that they went to fairly major lengths to try and make it workable - another poster here agreed with that.

The problems with that schedule are down to the proposed frequency planned for DART, which is causing longer journey times on the Belfast, northern line, and Rosslare line services to take longer, and (in the case of Sligo) longer sectional running times which are presumably down to changes in the permanent speed restrictions.

That's not really something that the schedulers can do a lot about.

It would my view that schedulers should of told management such a timetable was never going to be workable and would cost the company in revenue and passengers a lot more than they would benefit from increased free riders on the DART.

Now they may well of told them but who know's.

[ACustomer]

Could the new PP Tunnel trains not run Hazlehatch (full turnbank available) to GCD calling all stations. Portlaoise/Kildare trains could call just at Hazlehatch and Cherry Orchard thus gaining a bit of time. Passengers from Clondalkin and Adamstown would change at Cherry Orchard for Heuston.

Even if both lots of trains were all stations on the 4-track section, running the GCD trains just from Hazlehatch would need a lot less train sets compared with running them from farther out.

[James Shields]

I see "An Garda Siochana" has been fixed, but still "system’s".

James

[ThomasJ]

Joan Burton at coolmine station this morning . if I hadve known, I would have taken the train and stop to ask questions

Eamon coughlan and Joe Higgins all canvasing at coolmine station on behalf of candidates.

[James Shields]

There probably should be a more in-depth discussion of the PPT on a dedicated thread.

Has any consideration been given to new stations on the PPT route? It seems almost criminal that there isn't already a station at Phibsboro, an area with a lot of business and residential that's currently rather poorly served by public transport. The gap between Drumcondra and Broombridge stations is over 3km, and it seems bizarre that Phobsboro has so many rail lines running through it, but is so cut off from using them.

When the PPT opens, there would seem to be a lot of potential for a station around Black Horse Ave or Old Cabra Road. Again this is a large residential area, and while it's reasonably served by buses, a railway station would open up a lot of options for connecting trips on the Maynooth line, the DART, and even to Heuston services.

Apart from funding, is there anything preventing new stations from happening?

[Thomas J Stamp]

I see "An Garda Siochana" has been fixed, but still "system’s".

James

it's not a coding error, it's my spelling :D

[Thomas J Stamp]

There probably should be a more in-depth discussion of the PPT on a dedicated thread.

Has any consideration been given to new stations on the PPT route? It seems almost criminal that there isn't already a station at Phibsboro, an area with a lot of business and residential that's currently rather poorly served by public transport. The gap between Drumcondra and Broombridge stations is over 3km, and it seems bizarre that Phobsboro has so many rail lines running through it, but is so cut off from using them.

When the PPT opens, there would seem to be a lot of potential for a station around Black Horse Ave or Old Cabra Road. Again this is a large residential area, and while it's reasonably served by buses, a railway station would open up a lot of options for connecting trips on the Maynooth line, the DART, and even to Heuston services.

Apart from funding, is there anything preventing new stations from happening?

we've had a litany of PPT threads down the years, I'd prefer the discussion to be here so it's in the context of the election proposals and the review of the RUI Policy Document which has started in the past few weeks (in fact the Committee are reviewing the whole organisation but these things take a lot of time)

Oddly enough we have been in communication with someone about the possibility of Glasnevin Station being re-opened recently. My own view on things in general is that money is the only thing which matters - for example, you could CPO a big stretch of the Belfast line from Clontarf to Howth Junction and 4-track it if there was the money. There isn't.

You need political will. Therein lies a problem, one minister memorably told a friend and myself that he didn't give a toss about 20 years down the line, he had an election in 5.