Luas Strike Dates Announced

[berneyarms]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0113/759919-luas/

SIPTU have announced two 48-hour strikes in February on the following dates:


Thursday 11 February & Friday 12 February

Thursday 18 February & Friday 19 February.



Interestingly the report states that Transdev expect to incur a loss of €700k in 2015 - not quite the rosy picture many people paint about LUAS.

[Dublin13]

Very political.

[Mark Gleeson]

To note the legal structure here

Transdev operate the Luas under a contract from the NTA via the RPA. This is pretty much a fixed price contract with options for bonus/penalties.

The RPA pay Transdev. Transdev's internal finances are pretty much beyond the concern of the RPA and NTA.

RPA are exposed to the market conditions, if demand falls RPA take the bulk of the hit, if demand rises then they do well as does Transdev as they should get a cut of the extra.

So for Transdev to make more money
1. Beat the contract targets
2. Eliminate fare evasion
3. Drive passenger growth

[Jamie2k9]

With the wages RPU staff are looking for I bet it would be more cost effective to sack them and allow whatever level of non paying passengers continue.

[markpb]

With the wages RPU staff are looking for I bet it would be more cost effective to sack them and allow whatever level of non paying passengers continue.

It would only be cost effective until the NTA realise a key part of the NTA-Transdev isn't being enforced and fine Transdev accordingly.

[Thomas J Stamp]

With the wages RPU staff are looking for I bet it would be more cost effective to sack them and allow whatever level of non paying passengers continue.

all highly illegal though.

[Thomas J Stamp]

the WRC (not that one) has invited them all round for coffee and biscuits.

[ACustomer]

The Irish Times has a piece to-day on the now immanent strike:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-drivers-say-they-have-been-grossly-underpaid-1.2528698

It's a really weak piece by Martin Wall, relying almost entirely on the assertions of one disgruntled driver, most of whose arguments are very weak and which are never questioned (of course) by the fluffy journalism if the IT.

Apparently these guys want parity with train drivers. However no-one has looked at the pay of Dublin Bus drivers, which might provide a more coherent comparison. I wonder why?

One complaint is that they haven't had a pay rise since 2008? I wonder have they had a pay cut, like so many, even in the public sector?

[Jamie2k9]

God love the poor lads, coupling a tram together what maybe 3-4 times a year a failure happens and using a bar to move a set of points the odd time and they are automatic at most location.

I really hope management don't roll back on cancelling that 2,500 bonus this year.

The whole point of that article is to try and gain public support which they have very little if any.

[James Howard]

So far all they are succeeding in doing is presenting a very strong case for Irish Rail drivers being overpaid. I do agree with their point that their job is pretty equivalent to that of a train driver.

Their pay-scale in very similar to that of a teacher, yet the teacher will need to have three or four years in a degree and a year of HDip before the can even enter that salary scale. Few teachers entering the profession since 2008 will have even progressed into the salary scale as they are most likely in temporary positions.

The first 9 years of the Garda pay scale is also very similar.

[berneyarms]

So far all they are succeeding in doing is presenting a very strong case for Irish Rail drivers being overpaid. I do agree with their point that their job is pretty equivalent to that of a train driver.

Their pay-scale in very similar to that of a teacher, yet the teacher will need to have three or four years in a degree and a year of HDip before the can even enter that salary scale. Few teachers entering the profession since 2008 will have even progressed into the salary scale as they are most likely in temporary positions.

The first 9 years of the Garda pay scale is also very similar.

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

[James Howard]

Swings and roundabouts - each job has its different stresses, responsibilities and difficulties.

Driving a tram up Abbey Street can hardly be a terribly relaxing experience. You're inches away from crowds of idiots any one of whom is likely to step out in front of you on a second's notice.

On an annual basis the Luas system have more collisions with cars than they have trams.

[Jamie2k9]

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

We are in agreement about why IE should be paid more however this above is not any justification by any means.

a - You are showing a danger signal on approach to a station, all drivers know fully when to commence braking stopping day or night. I even know when drivers commence braking on Waterford line for example and most drivers have been traveling as long if not longer than me on the route.

b - Driver will be aware of TSR's prior to journey and they are signposted well in advance

Emergencies all types are a prime example of why IE should be paid more, in many cases IE drivers have a lot more responsibility and are on their own for much longer than a Luas driver would be. Example compare evacuating a Luas is simple and does not need a driver but a train would.

[Mark Gleeson]

Under EU law driving a train now requires a licence and a training program, drivers are now issued with a formal certificate which is issued in conjunction with an education body, e.g city of guilds. 18 months training

To drive a Luas you need a clean drivers licence for a commercial vehicle, training is a matter of weeks. Driving a tram in Dublin is pretty easy compared to somewhere like Amsterdam

Its fun to watch Luas drivers looking for Irish Rail pay levels, I'm sure they were are not willing to accept the longer hours, fewer days off and fewer benefits, no bonus.

Transdev contract is fixed, the only variable in the contract is the consumer price index, and that's what is being offered as an increase

[James Howard]

I kind of see the point - driving an Intercity train at least is more involved than driving a tram. But then to take it back to my other comparison, it is hard to see how a semi-skilled vehicle operator should be expecting 50% more pay than a teacher of the same experience level when that teacher has spent 4 years and tens of thousands of euro acquiring the skills to do that job.

It was a bit of a poor show at the Connolly Luas stop this morning. Aside from the departures information sign being blank, there was no sign of a strike - you'd think they could at least but a service cancelled notice on the info sign or if that was beyond the limits of their technology, a sign posted to the ticket machines. The ticket machines were operational and appeared to be open for selling tickets. I didn't look any closer than verify that the normal home screen was displayed though.

[Kilocharlie]

a - You are showing a danger signal on approach to a station, all drivers know fully when to commence braking stopping day or night. I even know when drivers commence braking on Waterford line for example and most drivers have been traveling as long if not longer than me on the route.



a - nope. At least not on twin tracks. If the line is clear, the signals are set to green long before the train arrives. It is up to the driver to stop and to know when to start slowing. This may also apply on single tracks provided a passing is not required or a change of track.
North bound trains into Kildare are given advance double-yellow/yellow as the up platform is in loop and they must slow before entering the loop.

[Jamie2k9]

On many single lines regardless of crossing another service, double orange will be shown as it is uncommon for the signalling system to be able to clear that far ahead and its demonstrated when running non stop services.

As twin lines, yes signilling system can clear miles ahead however in my experience Orange is shown often.

The automatic pa on thr 22s is based close on distance from stations and it would be unusual to see a driver not braking within 30 seconds after the announcement. Im sure they can see distance like passengers. Route knowledge also helps.

Its still tit for tat as Luas drivers have the same judgment particuarly on sections outside city centre.

[ACustomer]

In an earlier post I mentioned Dublin Bus drivers as a possible comparator group for Luas drivers.

Mark has told us that a clean commercial vehicle licence is a requirement for Luas drivers, which makes the Bus driver comparison more relevant. Now what is the pay is a Dublin Bus driver? I wonder if any of the useless hacks who pretend to be Industrial Relations correspondents would do a little research instead of re-hashing old material (as in the front page report in to-day's Irish Times).

[Jamie2k9]

Bus drivers on around 33,000 so more less 10k lower

Should be noted BE/DB have voted for strike action to get same perks as Luas drivers and additionall pay in the last week.

BE will be discussed at end of month with WRC

[ACustomer]

I've just done a quick online search and from the Dublin Bus website I find the following:

New drivers get €565.95 for a 4-day week (Mon-Thurs), which is €29,429 per annum. They may progress to a rate of €769.74 for a 5-day week with rotating shifts. This is €40,046 per annum. Number of hours per week is not stated, nor are any possible premia.

I think LUAS drivers currently earn a little more at the moment. Why don't the journalists ever do elementary searches for relevant information.

(This all took me 10 minutes!)

[Inniskeen]

I'm not sure you can equate driving an eight coach train at 100mph and knowing exactly where to commence braking for example in the pitch black darkness for every station stop or future speed restriction with driving a tram at a maximum of 43mph.

Most train drivers will have a far more extensive route network to learn and memorise than any tram driver.

I think there is an arguable case that driving a LUAS is at least as demanding as driving a DART.

DART runs on an exclusive right of way on the authority of signals and the backup of automatic train protection.

In contrast Luas drivers must be ever vigilant for pedestrians and vehicles. Observance of signals is entirely dependent on the driver and the consequences of a mistake can be very immediate.

The speed of a LUAS tram is comparable to DART , the latter rarely exceeds 45 mph and averages less than 20 mph, not dramatically different to a LUAS.

[Eddie]

The Luas drivers can't seriously be expecting a 50% pay rise. Many of them will have been taken on in the depths of the recession, grateful for the job. It sounds appealing when someone tells you that you deserve to be paid the same as some other group, but a few days of lost pay and the strike will probably start to crumble.

Teachers (and other groups) who started employment in the last few years will be earning a lot less than those doing the same job who began earlier, but that's just the way it is, and as a cohort, they are less likely to be saddled with debt. Unemployment is still high enough for there to be plenty of others grateful for the Luas work.

Of course, the other side is are Irish Rail drivers paid too much? I imagine they will want the Luas strike to be over as quickly as possible, because it draws attention to them. Did I read somewhere it is €60k a year and a guaranteed public sector final salary scheme? There's plenty who'd be very happy with that.

[Mark Gleeson]

It should be noted, there was no recession at Transdev, an increase was paid out in the darkest days of the recession, no increases in CIE in years

I don't particularity think Irish Rail drivers are over or underpaid, but if Luas gets a large lump of an increase there will be a push to restore the pay gap with Irish Rail.

Luas staff will be lucky to get 1.5% a year which is a hell of lot more than what many have seen over the last 5 years.

SIPTU must be living on a different planet, Transdev is not going to pay out, it doesn't have the infinite CIE overdraft. Sustained strike action will result in a loss of 100k a day on Transdev and risk of contract termination by the NTA. You might end up with Irish Rail or Dublin Bus being asked to act as interim managers while a tender is issued

[Thomas J Stamp]

this is the thing, transdev are not CIE, they are a private company providing a service under a contract issued by the NTA. I assume that behind the trading name the contracts are between the NTA and a subsidiary company set up to run luas so there may be no question of saying its a multinational company with endless reserves of cash.

maybe SIPTU is misreading the figures, because there is no automatic correlation between increase in passenger numbers and profit for the company, i would have thought that they would have been better off looking for a form of inflation based index linked plus a percentage.

that said there is nothing that annoys me more than "they're lucky to have a job" and "there's plenty in the dole queues waiting to take their jobs" - just because there may be doesn't give n employer carte blance to run your employment rights into the ground or deny you the right to take perfectly legal action to resolve a grievance. that path leads to slave labour.

[Mark Gleeson]

For the record Luas is operated by Transdev Dublin Light Rail Limited, which is owned by its parent.

Transdev does have some control over its payments owing to the contract targets. So of the beat the performance targets they do get a limited financial benifit. So for example there is a carrot and stick thing for fare evasion, above a certain level penalty, below a certain level bonus

[ACustomer]

Looking at to-day's main newspapers, all they have are (a) shock-horror headlines about traffic chaos; (b) lots of special pleading from SIPTU guys; (c) no critical analysis of said SIPTU guys and (d) a few quotes from management.

There is no analysis of pay with other related jobs (DB), no analysis of the contractual relations between TransDev, NTA, etc. Nothing approaching the interesting and relevant contributions on this site.

The journos don't even have the energy to do a few elementary Google searches.

[Colm Moore]

This seems to be more about the election (and 'The Revolution') than a genuine negotiation for a pay increase.

While pay increases over the last 8 year might be modest, the cost of living is in the same place as then.

Train drivers wanted to be treated the same as airline pilots, tram drivers want to be treated the same as train drivers and there is a suggestion that bus drivers will lodge a pay claim to match tram drivers.

[Jamie2k9]

8 and 17 March are the next dates.

[Mark Gleeson]

Transdev are now at serious risk of contract termination through non performance.

I can see this dragging on and on and Transdev are not going to negotiate until SIPTU adopts a financially realistic position.

[Jamie2k9]

Transdev are now at serious risk of contract termination through non performance.

I can see this dragging on and on and Transdev are not going to negotiate until SIPTU adopts a financially realistic position.


It will really be 17 March before Transdev start to lose anything when you take the bonus/regular wage and balance it against fines.

I cannot see the contract been terminated at all, simple fact is if they terminate it they will find it difficult to get another company in to operate with such demands. The NTA know the consequences of for example letting CIE manage short term combined with the additional cost a new operator will demand to meet wage demands.

The sync in me think's SIPTU were expecting it to be resolved before the election and now that has not happened they have been forced to give another 3 weeks notice and once this week's over it will almost be forgotten it will become a non issue and they will have to be realistic at some point. Now they have opted for single days as they know next to nobody is on there side.

What would be the chances of unions agreeing to 3 week notice within CIE?

[Thomas J Stamp]

the problem with doing this during an election from SIPTU's point of view is that Transdev/NTA isnt CIE. the tactic of pressurising the minister to intervene either overtly or in the background isnt going to work.

choosing st patricks day and days of matches and so on also sounds grand on paper but it is 100% capable of severe backlash, with passengers going from innocent bystanders to deliberate victims of the striking workers.

[ACustomer]

On the day of the latest strike, the "paper of record" has a piece by the same journalist with a photo of the same SIPTU driver and the following headline: "Luas drivers say they have been grossly underpaid".

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-drivers-say-they-have-been-grossly-underpaid-1.2528698

Once again, no real analysis or pay comparisons, just a lot of hot air from drivers and passengers alike. Pathetic.

[Jamie2k9]

That is dated last Wednesday 10th!

Luas TMV had stickers indicating a strike this week, much more visable than last week.

[ACustomer]

Jamie2k9: You are right about the 10th. But when I looked at to-day's online IT, that piece was featured. It shows that not only do they do terrible reporting, they recycle it!

The same newspaper is now running election reports from a "representative" sample of 10 (!!). A sample of that size is enough to make any statistician want to tear his hair out.

How can we rely on these guys for news about anything?

[Jamie2k9]

Indo has a peice on their demands:

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-dont-need-leaving-cert-just-a-full-clean-driving-licence-34463823.html

[James Howard]

Unions generally don't feel that public support is necessary to a claim but they might be badly wrong on this one. To be looking for a 50% pay rise and benefits such as 30 - 45 minutes shorter drive time is quite seriously odd.

I'd say the majority of passengers would rather grin and bear the strikes than pay the inevitable fare increases if the Luas operational costs increased by 19 million euro. If that figure is to be taken on face value (and that is a big if), the cost increase represents 50 cent per passenger journey. Somebody has to pay this - it won't be Transdev, so that leaves either the taxpayer or the fare payer.

It seems to be the height of irresponsibility to escalate to two day strikes on this sort of demands so quickly. The only way they can ratchet up the pressure now is to go all out which can't last long before drivers start running out of euros.

[Eddie]

Although only an ad-hoc LUAS user myself, I trust that those who have monthly or annual tickets will be able to claim for strike days, in the same way that those who were affected by the Bus strikes last May were. (I was reimbursed €5.50 per day for 2 days, which at least partially offset the Aircoach ticket I had to buy.)

[Jamie2k9]

Both drivers who are shop stuarts were on RTE saying they want the fare revenue released it generates and they do not want taxpayers money

Not sure how such data will help. There was also speculation that the company may shut down Luas services until it was resolved.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its totally irrelevant

Transdev would still get paid if only 1 passenger showed up tomorrow. They are paid to provide a service laid out in the specification, the farebox is separate function

If the Luas was loss making, or say RPA/TII decided to operate for a week for zero fares. Transdev would still get paid the agreed rate in full.

[Jamie2k9]

Easter Sunday/Monday added, other grades have ended work to rule however drivers have ended the unofficial action after they were threatened with legal action.

SIPTU have moved onto IE as well, DART drivers have voted, will that mean all other will drivers striking as well?

[Mark Gleeson]

Hard to judge if this is a well thought out plan to cause chaos or just the way of things.

SIPTU cannot win against Transdev, they will probably end up with 3% a year

DART is a different game, the actual reason for the dispute is unclear. A timetable change is nothing new and comes under 'normal business change' there is no change in driving hours or breaks everything stays within the existing agreements. But due running more trains rostering will be more efficient so excessively long breaks might vanish. The only issue is a slightly earlier start but the existing agreement covers 24hours-364 day a year so no claim will stand up. Bit like the 8 coach DART claim which was thrown out.

[Jamie2k9]

SIPTU cannot win against Transdev, they will probably end up with 3% a year

Question is when will the penny drop, I really don't think SIPTU would vote for a complete shutdown.

When will staff start to realize they need to talk, 2,600 lost + 8 days pay if Easter goes ahead. I'm sure some of them will really be feeling it now.

[Inniskeen]

Hard to judge if this is a well thought out plan to cause chaos or just the way of things.

SIPTU cannot win against Transdev, they will probably end up with 3% a year

DART is a different game, the actual reason for the dispute is unclear. A timetable change is nothing new and comes under 'normal business change' there is no change in driving hours or breaks everything stays within the existing agreements. But due running more trains rostering will be more efficient so excessively long breaks might vanish. The only issue is a slightly earlier start but the existing agreement covers 24hours-364 day a year so no claim will stand up. Bit like the 8 coach DART claim which was thrown out.

I must say I am a bit puzzled by the DART dispute although shorter breaks and previously fudged issues carried forward or kicked down the road may be the root cause - how was payment for previous productivity resolved ?

It will be a bit ironic if services are disrupted in the pursuit of changes which are of minimal benefit to DART users and so negative for everybody else !

[Thomas J Stamp]

I was surprised at the DART action, I thought the 10 min timetable was kicked back till much later this year than April.

Strikes in CIE can be over things which we find odd. For example the introduction of the RA double deck fleet caused a strike as they were about 4 ft longer than the R type double deckers. Sticking with tradition.

[berneyarms]

I was surprised at the DART action, I thought the 10 min timetable was kicked back till much later this year than April.

Strikes in CIE can be over things which we find odd. For example the introduction of the RA double deck fleet caused a strike as they were about 4 ft longer than the R type double deckers. Sticking with tradition.

To clarify, there are two Connolly timetables in the pipeline:

1) Recast timetables including 10 minute DART service
2) Post-City Centre re-signalling including Kildare line to Grand Canal Dock

The first was due in January and now is April, while the second isn't due until later in the year.

[Thomas J Stamp]

well, thats really dumb.

[James Howard]

There is no logical reason for the 10 minute DART timetable to run for 6 months. None. The only possible reason is that Irish Rail don't want to look stupid by cancelling it.

DART passengers make up 44% of Irish Rail passengers by numbers yet probably around 10 - 15% by revenue yet everyone else is being hammered to suit. Nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that DART serves the richest parts of the city?

No company being run on a sound financial basis would put the interests of 90% of its revenue behind that of 10%.

[berneyarms]

well, thats really dumb.

That was always the plan as I understand it - not sure why you thought otherwise nor why there should be an issue with it?

GB rail timetables change every May and December for example.

[berneyarms]

There is no logical reason for the 10 minute DART timetable to run for 6 months. None. The only possible reason is that Irish Rail don't want to look stupid by cancelling it.

DART passengers make up 44% of Irish Rail passengers by numbers yet probably around 10 - 15% by revenue yet everyone else is being hammered to suit. Nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that DART serves the richest parts of the city?

No company being run on a sound financial basis would put the interests of 90% of its revenue behind that of 10%.

The 10 minute DART service would continue after the resignalling is complete - it's just the operation of the commuter services would change with most using the turnback platforms at GCD rather than terminating at Pearse and more trains would use the loop line bridge (Kildare Line services for example).

I would suggest that the reality is that the funding has been allocated for it from government via the NTA and DART drivers have been recruited and trained. Not spending it could see the money lost.

Why would they delay it another six months given that?

Train timetables across the water change every May and December - they don't seem to see a problem with it.

[Jamie2k9]

8 March strike cancelled so takes can happen on Monday.

[James Howard]

The reason why it should be delayed six months are

1. It makes the service significantly worse for everyone except DART users
2. The only DART users who will benefit are those travelling less than about 4 stops. For all others, the increased journey time will more than absorb the reduced wait time.
3. The unions object and we can expect disruption

So what if money is lost - there is no point in spending money making the service on balance worse for everyone. If the city centre resignalling allow 10 minute DART with significantly less disruption elsewhere, then go with it when the system is ready. If not, serious questions need to be asked about the spending for 120 million of public money with no positive results on customer experience.

A cynic might suggest that the urgency is because we're in for six months of hell in putting a timetable in place that the system can't cope with and when the resignalling project is complete we'll all be so grateful for the improvement that we'll think that was money well spent and all is good.

Also, I fail to see why we should do stuff that they do across the water. The UK is hardly a paragon of excellence in rail operations.

[berneyarms]

The reason why it should be delayed six months are

1. It makes the service significantly worse for everyone except DART users
2. The only DART users who will benefit are those travelling less than about 4 stops. For all others, the increased journey time will more than absorb the reduced wait time.
3. The unions object and we can expect disruption

So what if money is lost - there is no point in spending money making the service on balance worse for everyone. If the city centre resignalling allow 10 minute DART with significantly less disruption elsewhere, then go with it when the system is ready. If not, serious questions need to be asked about the spending for 120 million of public money with no positive results on customer experience.

A cynic might suggest that the urgency is because we're in for six months of hell in putting a timetable in place that the system can't cope with and when the resignalling project is complete we'll all be so grateful for the improvement that we'll think that was money well spent and all is good.


So therefore you'd be happy for the newly recruited DART drivers to be effectively sitting around doing damn all for six months? That's effectively what's going to happen if it's deferred again.

As a taxpayer I'm not happy with that.

Nor do I think that the completion of the city centre re-signalling project is going to make that much difference with regard to the 10 minute DART service. The entire northern half of the DART line is already re-signalled.

As I have posted before, I think the extended DART running times in the proposed timetable are in fact a reflection of the reality that the trains are actually taking longer than the current schedule allows - therefore I don't see any point in retaining a timetable that doesn't reflect reality. If the schedule can't be achieved, then it needs to be changed. Therefore people will be gaining from a more reliable timetable.

Your earlier comment about DART serving "rich areas" is really pushing things a bit. For all the so called "rich areas", there are also large working class areas along the DART line, so I really think that's a daft argument.

Also, I fail to see why we should do stuff that they do across the water. The UK is hardly a paragon of excellence in rail operations.

Six monthly timetable changes are actually one of the better practices - it gives certainty about when changes will happen, and it allows changes to happen at least twice a year as infrastructure/rolling stock allows, rather than wait for a single annual change.

[Jamie2k9]

I must say I am a bit puzzled by the DART dispute although shorter breaks and previously fudged issues carried forward or kicked down the road may be the root cause - how was payment for previous productivity resolved ?

If I'm correct there was due to be a 3 or 4 month window for discussions, if it was 4 it would more less only be coming to an end around now.

I was surprised at the DART action, I thought the 10 min timetable was kicked back till much later this year than April.

Strikes in CIE can be over things which we find odd. For example the introduction of the RA double deck fleet caused a strike as they were about 4 ft longer than the R type double deckers. Sticking with tradition.

It was always 10 April, I think they planned on publishing the schedule next week, they might take a rain check in light of this.

To clarify, there are two Connolly timetables in the pipeline:

1) Recast timetables including 10 minute DART service
2) Post-City Centre re-signalling including Kildare line to Grand Canal Dock

The first was due in January and now is April, while the second isn't due until later in the year.

Really, such a wast we spent 3 years with one timetable and then get two within a year. Give the PPT services will be factored into the current one and there will be no further increase in service how necessary is one. They should just wait so, the election gimmick never worked so put it to bed until end of the year.

So therefore you'd be happy for the newly recruited DART drivers to be effectively sitting around doing damn all for six months? That's effectively what's going to happen if it's deferred again.

As a taxpayer I'm not happy with that.


With respect they have been doing for months already (towards end of last year), another 5 will do no harm.

Better to do things right.

[Inniskeen]

So therefore you'd be happy for the newly recruited DART drivers to be effectively sitting around doing damn all for six months? That's effectively what's going to happen if it's deferred again.



Rather see them sitting round doing nothing than driving unneeded services, the principal impact of which will be to create delays and congestion.



Nor do I think that the completion of the city centre re-signalling project is going to make that much difference with regard to the 10 minute DART service. The entire northern half of the DART line is already re-signalled.



The next section of the city centre re-signalling is the most significant as it will allow extra services across the loop line and provide purpose designed turn-back. Should be commissioned later this year provided the RSC don't sit on it for a year or two !

The new signalling should allow a train to turn back at Grand Canal Dock and a 2nd turn-back service to stand outside Grand Canal Dock without impeding through services in either direction.



As I have posted before, I think the extended DART running times in the proposed timetable are in fact a reflection of the reality that the trains are actually taking longer than the current schedule allows - therefore I don't see any point in retaining a timetable that doesn't reflect reality. If the schedule can't be achieved, then it needs to be changed. Therefore people will be gaining from a more reliable timetable.




I am not convinced by this argument. One of the consistent complaints on the Irish Rail twitter feed is the early departure of DARTs (and other trains), particularly at off-peak periods. Even services like the 0730 from Greystones often depart Connolly early. Some off peak DARTs frequently run 3 or 4 minutes early depending on the driving style. The incrementally increased allowances over the years has engendered a somewhat disinterested driving style and a very relaxed attitude to station stops.

The nonsense of crew changing at Fairview is another factor which adds delay and congestion.

[Thomas J Stamp]

That was always the plan as I understand it - not sure why you thought otherwise nor why there should be an issue with it?

GB rail timetables change every May and December for example.


its dumb to press ahead with one timetable change which is causing friction when it can be pushed back to the other timetabnle change and you can put them both in together and use the time to sort out the problems.

as for waste of taxpayers money during this time well, as another tax payer i am grand with it as long as the time now is spent wisely to secure long term future stability.

[Jamie2k9]

SIPTU cannot win against Transdev, they will probably end up with 3% a year

Reported SIPTU have dropped to around 6% per year for 5 years but NBRU says bus drivers will require whatever % increase Luas get.

[James Howard]

As a matter of interest, does RUI have an official position on the new timetable. Is there any widespread support among Irish Rail customers for it? If not, why is this being rammed through when it results in a cost increase?

[Jamie2k9]

So all out strike on the cards as it appears the drivers are the only greedy grade. I'm not sure SIPTU will have the conviction to carry it out. Prefect opportunity to hire some new staff once notice is issued.

As a matter of interest, does RUI have an official position on the new timetable. Is there any widespread support among Irish Rail customers for it? If not, why is this being rammed through when it results in a cost increase?

They got under 2,600 feedback on the timetable, if you exclude DART users (what have they to complain about?) it is low enough however there will always be a % who will just leave and not complain.

[Mark Gleeson]

Lets stick to the Luas strike issue in this thread please

[Jamie2k9]

Another 4 days in April after one another, 3 other grads are back in WRC tomorrow and deal seem's likely.

Link to what perks staff get:
http://www.transdevireland.ie/joinus.html

[James Howard]

On boards, there is a lot of idle speculation about going all-out and various rows going on about whether or not the Luas drivers deserve their increase and if they are right to strike. I reckon everyone will have their own opinion on this and it will be strongly held so an internet forum is hardly the place to discuss it.

I would say that I have not met a single person who would take the Luas drivers' side more than I do. It is difficult to see how an income that tops out around 45K is sufficient to enable a reasonable standard of living in a city where the average house costs nearly 7 times that figure but a lot of people seem to be able to manage it.

I can't see this ending terribly well for the drivers. They'll be doing extremely well to end up with more than 15% over the five years as the NTA won't be putting Transdev under much pressure to settle given the knock-on costs for the state transport operators. There is little or no public pressure for a settlement given the lack of public support for the strike.

[Jamie2k9]

Would be interesting to see if another ballot was carried out by drivers now as losing the bonus and what appears to be 2 weeks pay will defiantly impact on some.

Like I expected a full shut down has not happened and I don't expect them either, they and the public have to much to lose from such a move.

It's also very good that politics cannot play any part in this, if only the same applied to the CIE group.

[Jamie2k9]

Bus service every 10 minutes between 7am-7pm will be provided on 17 March on both lines and operate from P&R facilities.

One would expect the same on Easter weekend.

[Dublin13]

It's rare I used the LUAS, but twice this week I have and whilst there is no strike on, there certainly is smaller actions being taken by drivers on the dail basis, many colleagues who use the LUAS have seen an increase in LUAS bunching to the point where it is not uncommon to see several trams running head to tail with each other.

Also the last LUAS on the red line has been canceled from The Point for the last few days and in general drivers seem to be on a go slow.

[Jamie2k9]

The National Bus and Rail Union has strongly criticised the "extraordinary" decision to hire in buses.

NBRU General Secretary Dermot O'Leary said there are no circumstances by which justification can be brought to bear on an employer arbitrarily deciding to supplant the role of its workers by using other workers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0311/774081-luas-dispute/

Oh dear :D

[Thomas J Stamp]

I would say that I have not met a single person who would take the Luas drivers' side more than I do. It is difficult to see how an income that tops out around 45K is sufficient to enable a reasonable standard of living in a city where the average house costs nearly 7 times that figure but a lot of people seem to be able to manage it.

I can't see this ending terribly well for the drivers.

well, they have every right to strike, and for once its a private company bearing the brunt (like cadbury's as well) but they never had a hope of the increases being bandied about, and in fact such demands are well out of kilter with what the NBRU would have looked for down the years. I'm not sure about today, but the wage of bus drivers and conductors was never mega, most would have lived in council houses which they may have bought out at cheap rates in the 80's and 90's. For them to try and get well out of that zone is a bit optimistic.

[Jamie2k9]

well, they have every right to strike, and for once its a private company bearing the brunt (like cadbury's as well) but they never had a hope of the increases being bandied about, and in fact such demands are well out of kilter with what the NBRU would have looked for down the years. I'm not sure about today, but the wage of bus drivers and conductors was never mega, most would have lived in council houses which they may have bought out at cheap rates in the 80's and 90's. For them to try and get well out of that zone is a bit optimistic.

Don't speak to soon, we shall see why the NBRU seek from IE when SIPTU demands are revealed.

[Jamie2k9]

Talks tomorrow but bus services cancelled.

Transdev dropping the bus bomb appears to have worked and rather well, suspect there has been a major drop in the claim again as I can't see Transdev going back without it.

[James Howard]

Meanwhile the poor sods depending on public transport to get into the parade are left high and dry again. It really is terrible the way it appears to be sacrilegious nowadays to try to get passengers to where they want to go in the event of a strike.

I remember a Bus Éireann strike about 20 years ago where they hired in loads of buses and there was no bother. I think there was a picket at Busaras but people were able to get buses on the street and it was all quite amicable.

[Jamie2k9]

Meanwhile the poor sods depending on public transport to get into the parade are left high and dry again. It really is terrible the way it appears to be sacrilegious nowadays to try to get passengers to where they want to go in the event of a strike.

I remember a Bus Éireann strike about 20 years ago where they hired in loads of buses and there was no bother. I think there was a picket at Busaras but people were able to get buses on the street and it was all quite amicable.

Wouldn't surprise me if talks breakdown tomorrow or Wednesday they will operate the buses. It's not as if the bus operators will be doing anything else on Thursday.

Given Transdev are going back I think they are close to getting the increases they wanted as in 3-5%.

[Colm Moore]

Don't speak to soon, we shall see why the NBRU seek from IE when SIPTU demands are revealed.

The train drivers have previously claimed parity with airline pilots.

The tram drivers want parity with with train drivers.

The bus drivers want parity with with tram drivers.

[Mark Gleeson]

Some good news http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0316/775202-luas-pay-row/

The 2 revenue protection grades have agreed a deal

[Mark Gleeson]

Further news coming in indicates the strike on 17th is off, normal service to operate.

[Mark Gleeson]

The drivers have accepted a deal, the control room staff have yet to agree it would appear

[Jamie2k9]

Reported drivers might get up to 17.5%....

[Mark Gleeson]

Which is 3 times less than the demand made by SIPTU

[Thomas J Stamp]

and about three times more than the management were publicly offering. trebles all round!!!

[Mark Gleeson]

No 6.5% bonus in 2016 to pay gets you back to what was on the table to start.

Badly played by SIPTU, once again the public are left stranded. There was never a need for any of this and they could have got 1-3% and kept the 2016 bonus and been better off and no strike.

[Jamie2k9]

No 6.5% bonus in 2016 to pay gets you back to what was on the table to start.

Badly played by SIPTU, once again the public are left stranded. There was never a need for any of this and they could have got 1-3% and kept the 2016 bonus and been better off and no strike.

Would appear the bonus might only be lost for Q1 of 2016, full pay details in link. 50,000 after 9 years how does that compare with IE?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0316/775202-luas-pay-row/

Curious to know how a control room who are on strike will enable normal service tomorrow. Perhaps extend that plan full time :rolleyes:

[Colm Moore]

Curious to know how a control room who are on strike will enable normal service tomorrow. Perhaps extend that plan full time :rolleyes:Some of them would be 'management', not 'staff' and other managers may be able to do cover.

[Jamie2k9]

Strikes going ahead

Will Transdev walk or do a complete shutdown???

[James Howard]

While 1916 nostalgia is all the range, a re-enactment of the lock-out is taking things a bit far. So I'd say it isn't outside the realms of possibility that Transdev may just give up and leave them to it.

This situation is starting to get out of hand - it's going to be spreading to CIE in the next few weeks. We really need the politicians to stop screwing about and form a government because the only way I can see this being resolved is to work out some kind of national pay deal so that everyone gets a fair share of the return on the hardship of the last 8 years. While these deals got a bad name during Bertie's time, they did work very well in previous years.

I really can't see how going ahead with this weekend's strikes helps anyone. You've got tens of thousands of stranded passengers, drivers out two more days' pay and a company out two more days' revenue. Private sector workers are looking on in utter disgust at people rejecting increases at twice the rate they are getting. The union reps may dispute this, but you will find it extremely difficult to find anybody not employed by the state with any sympathy whatsoever towards Luas staff.

[Inniskeen]

I very much doubt that anything further of significance will be conceded and as you say Transdev may walk. I suspect this dispute will get much worse before it dawns on the workers's that their demands are simply not realistic or achievable.

[Jamie2k9]

Transdev UK and Ireland CEO has send out a strong message and that is P45's will be on the way soon.....of course worded very differently.

Still fully committed to finishing the contract and hope to have it again.

SIPTU response:
SIPTU said it is disappointing and inexplicable that Mr Stevens did not meet with Luas workers despite meeting a number of "key stakeholders".

SIPTU Sector Organiser Willie Noone said the Transdev CEO "obviously does not view Luas workers or their representatives as being key stakeholders worthy of meeting".

Another SIPTU Organiser, John Murphy, called on Mr Stevens to withdraw the "implied threat" in his letter of cutbacks.

He said union representatives are available to engage in negotiations to find a "just conclusion" to the dispute.

They are back over a barrel now, quiet a toned down reaction than previous weeks
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0331/778580-luas/

[James Howard]

There was an incredible interview with Kieran Mulvey of the WRC on Morning Ireland this morning. He basically stated that in any other company, the union reps would have received a standing ovation from the workers for the deal they negotiated.

This is getting very strange indeed when the referee is going on national radio to say that one side is being unrealistic. He's basically put his reputation on the line by saying what he said.

I can't help but feel there is something else going on here. Let's just say it wouldn't do SIPTU much harm if Transdev were forced into walking away from the contract.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jack-o-connor-calls-on-kieran-mulvey-to-resign-after-comments-1.2594942

[Dublin13]

This isn't even about LUAS workers.

It's a much bigger campaign by SIPTU to try and stop tendering of public transport if you ask me, anyone who thinks this is just about LUAS workers and their pay is barking up the wrong tree.

It's about the unions flexing their muscles and showing that they will not allow their influence to be diluted or tendering of public transport to happen on a more widespread basis as it would reduce their power.

At the end of the day being a user of public transport in this country is a totally depressing experience, it's clear that the services are not run on behalf of the public and us commuters will only ever play second fiddle to union politics.

[James Howard]

On the face of it, the workers rejected the proposals negotiated by the union in a secret ballot. It would be truly extraordinary if it were the case that the union deliberately negotiated in bad faith for an agreement that they knew would be rejected. Personally, I doubt that that is what happened but it certainly is doing no harm to SIPTU's agenda.

This row has gotten seriously out of hand - it is actually difficult to see how Kieran Mulvey's position is tenable now. He has talked the WRC out of any possible role in a solution by being seen to take one side in the dispute.

What is depressing is your last point - the passenger (and other stakeholders like employers and city centre retailers) is the last person to be considered at the moment. This applies to both this dispute and the new DART timetable. While that this timetable was misguided and represented a serious step backwards for many commuters, no consideration whatsoever was given to the passenger by either Irish Rail or the unions. Public service seems to be very much on the back-burner here.

[ACustomer]

Dublin 13: I think you are spot on when you say that there is a wider agenda here, against any form of tendering or dilution of the existing CIE/union monopoly.

I have been told by someone with a fair degree of knowledge about these things, that there are political extremists behind much of the LUAS troubles. Needless to say our useless journalists, for whom "Pas D'ennemis A Gauche" is the rule, are not going to enlighten us.

[Mark Gleeson]

I have listened to the interview, and while clearly frustrated it was balanced, clear and unbiased.

The fact SIPTU hadn't the basic courtesy to make contact after the rejection of the offer clearly highlights an unwillingness to engage with the process in a mature and reasonable manner.

[Jamie2k9]

it is actually difficult to see how Kieran Mulvey's position is tenable now.

Not listened fully however feel it is more than tenable, anyway he is close to retiring anyway.

On the face of it, the workers rejected the proposals negotiated by the union in a secret ballot. It would be truly extraordinary if it were the case that the union deliberately negotiated in bad faith for an agreement that they knew would be rejected. Personally, I doubt that that is what happened but it certainly is doing no harm to SIPTU's agenda.

You would have to question the level of pressure SIPTU put on members, some would say they didn't say a thing to the shop stewards about accepting. I don't think they took much of a position on the agreement publicly either.

Dublin 13: I think you are spot on when you say that there is a wider agenda here, against any form of tendering or dilution of the existing CIE/union monopoly.

I have been told by someone with a fair degree of knowledge about these things, that there are political extremists behind much of the LUAS troubles. Needless to say our useless journalists, for whom "Pas D'ennemis A Gauche" is the rule, are not going to enlighten us.

Now LAB have been kicked out of Government they don't have a lot to lose however they should of picked a battle they could win and I don't think this is the one.

When a unions have to roll out it's president it shows they are on the ropes, this is the second time they have done it.

All of a sudden John Murphy says there is a basis for talks again, you know just a few days when SIPTU said it was up to the company to come with proposes. He is also happy with the WRC. Amazing what a letter outlining cuts can do. Interesting to see if they will approach Transdev.

[Thomas J Stamp]

the fall out from this mornings interviews is interesting.

Jack O'Connor was asked if the behaviour of his shop stewards was acceptable. He said that what he had heard was acceptable, maybe the interviewer had heard something else. It wasn't followed up but what Jamie has just said makes me think....

Also, the lad form Transdev was on the radio yesterday saying that the unions were quite happy in private talks to ensure that all the new drivers were stuck on anti social hours in contrast to the public concern they have shown for them.

So there does seem to be something going on, not just the passengers being used as pawns in this...

[Jamie2k9]

the fall out from this mornings interviews is interesting.

Jack O'Connor was asked if the behaviour of his shop stewards was acceptable. He said that what he had heard was acceptable, maybe the interviewer had heard something else. It wasn't followed up but what Jamie has just said makes me think....

Also, the lad form Transdev was on the radio yesterday saying that the unions were quite happy in private talks to ensure that all the new drivers were stuck on anti social hours in contrast to the public concern they have shown for them.

So there does seem to be something going on, not just the passengers being used as pawns in this...

On 16 March when the deal was announced, one of the shop stewards told Ingrid Miley they would not recommend acceptance and on the same news SIPTU sort of had an hands off approach saying if they don't accept it there will be more action.

There was little encouragement if any in my view...

Of course they don't really care about newbies, the wage should be reduced as it was a Celtic Tiger Wage, 32,000 for 6 weeks training.

Whats happened today and the letter have really taken the sting out of the strike and 24 hours after the letter there was not been a peep about future action. They will have to give notice in the next few days about action for late April (after 23-24) one. No threats of Jack O'Connor saying he would sanction an all out strike.

Also slight back tracking by Jack this evening about his comments

Mr O'Connor has since said that he regrets that he had to make the comments, but added they had to be said.

He said the focus should be on resolving the Luas dispute, saying the key to doing that was to listen to the workers.

The row comes as Luas workers go on strike for a further two days this weekend.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0401/778756-luas-further-strikes/

Now the cynic in me says the move to weekend strikes appears to mitigate some of the losses to drivers in terms of pay. Much reduced schedule 10-15 minutes most of the time even 20 minutes so a lot less drivers and they lose less hours.

Would imagine any more action after the end of April and it will be the last straw for Transdev before they make cuts.

Not making additional announcements is very telling however still leaves the risk of something big been planned such as an all out one.

[ACustomer]

To follow up on my earlier post, see to-day's Indo. Not always the most reliable source, but at least they are not tip-toeing around the murkier political aspect of this dispute:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/is-hugely-disruptive-luas-row-really-about-pay-at-all-34592381.html

[James Howard]

That Indo article is a pathetic excuse for journalism. It reads like a summary of the boards threads on the Luas strike.

[Jamie2k9]

That Indo article is a pathetic excuse for journalism. It reads like a summary of the boards threads on the Luas strike.

Over the weekend drivers are not at all happy about how they are been discussed in the media and online sites. The journal ran an article on it however it didn't change a thing.

Another interesting thins is one of the shop stewards admitted both sites had not had serious discussions and was keen to point out it wasn't just about pay but also T&C's!

SIPTU meeting this week to announce the next move, would expect it will be 2 possibly 3 days action on May BH.

[Jamie2k9]

5 more 24h strikes and 1 4 hour strike added from 28 April until end of May.

Now why the big come down from 48h strikes......

[Mickey H]

BBC News:

Drivers on the Luas tram system in Dublin have served notice of further strike action later in April and May over a pay dispute.

The Services, Industrial, Professional and Technical Union (Siptu) said strikes will take place on 28 April, 4 May, 13 May, 20 May, 26 and 27 May.

A further two-day strike had already been scheduled for 23 and 24 April.

The drivers have been on strike for eight days so far this year.

The escalation of the strike comes after a deal brokered by the Workplace Relations Commission in March was rejected by workers.
Workers are seeking pay rises ranging from 8% to 53%.

Transdev says these levels of pay rises are not sustainable.

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0406/779990-luas-strike/

Gerry Madden, Managing Director of Transdev, said the strike notice "shows a continuing blatant disregard by SIPTU for Luas customers and the travelling public".

He added the strikes were designed to cause "maximum customer disruption".

Mr Madden said that as SIPTU has served notice of strike action but has not engaged or sought to engage in any talks with Transdev, the company will take legal action on what courses of action are open to it.

Hopefully they can find something to bring SIPTU up on.

[Jamie2k9]

TII gave SIPTU a short and sweet response for not meeting with the union

"While you may believe that a meeting between us is essential, I do not."

Both sides are talking today and it was agreed a day after Transdev announced legal action been sought

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0411/781007-luas-dispute-talks/

[Jamie2k9]

SIPTU has warned that the Luas dispute could turn into a lockout and staff could face protected notice, short-time working and lay offs.

Following a two-hour meeting with operators Transdev, SIPTU divisional organiser Eoin Reidy said the company was going to write to the staff threatening them with breach of contract proceedings for part-performance of their contract.

Mr Reidy said Transdev had also threatened to take monies out of peoples salaries to recoup losses due to the strike.

He described the Transdev move as an escalation and unprecedented, adding that staff would now consider a ballot for an all out strike.

Transdev sources confirmed to RTÉ that the issues outlined by SIPTU had been raised at the meeting.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0411/781007-luas-dispute-talks/

Must say Transdev are doing very well, if there is a hint of a breach of contract they will win any legal case.

[Jamie2k9]

All staff (4 grads) on protect notice and future employment will be assessed daily.
Staff who fail to perform duties will have pay cuts and
Non performance in full will be removed
Also failure to accept 10% pay rise by 17 Aprik will result in future offers been lower.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0412/781165-luas-dublin-dispute/

[Eddie]

I understand that Luas staff will not be paid for strike days after 24 April.

That suggests that have been til now.

No wonder they decided to strike on Paddy's Day, Easter weekend etc...

[Jamie2k9]

They have lost pay on all strike days but regular wages will also be cut in addition loss of strike pay on dates in May to recover losses as up until now the annual 2,500+ bonus for continuous service has more less off set losses to transdev, now it eill be staff off setting it after 24th.

[ACustomer]

I know some of you disapprove of Indo journalism, but not for the first time they have identified political militancy as a factor in the LUAS dispute.

See:http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/annemarie-walsh-luas-row-driven-by-shop-stewards-from-the-start-34622678.html

I have had corroboration of this a few weeks ago from a respected Industrial Relations professional.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I'm not 100% convinced that whoever wrote that letter for transdev is really clued up on irish industrial relations law. It looks tough and sure there are things they can do (like close down) and things they cannot do (like deduct expenses from future weekly wages of their workers for engaging in a legal industrial relations dispute).

It almost would make you think they have decided to get the hell out of dodge. if they do, afaik the contract will have to be re-tendered, in the meanwhile I'd imagine that IE would be asked to run the management of it on an interim basis. Game, set, match to SIPTU.

If they do a lock out i would imagine the public anthiaphy towards the workers would evaporate.

Oddly enough, an unscientific twitter poll yesterday showed green line passengers more likely to support transdev, red line the workers.

[Jamie2k9]

If they are illegal then SIPTU have yet to cop it! In saying that they wouldn't be the brightest tools in the box when they have failed to follow basic law in previous Aer Lingus case.

Vote will be telling. As for tendering it could just Transdev looking for extra funding for new contwct.

[Thomas J Stamp]

well, they havent done it yet, they are threatening to do so if there are future stoppages. it'll be popcorn time.

of course, SIPTU are reacting the only way they know how, by threatening an all out strike. so the public see "union threats all out strike" as opposed to "transdev to force ruin upon their workers"

whoever has been doing the PR for SIPTU should be getting the sack first of all.

[Jamie2k9]

SIPTU out today saying they won't stand for it etc however no mention of the ballot for all out action and nothing about the pay offer to be accepted by Sunday, not formally rejected which is interesting.

In another development the controllers will meet with management next week to discuss things, this been the grade that didn't accept anything in March

[Colm Moore]

Must say Transdev are doing very well, if there is a hint of a breach of contract they will win any legal case.

If I'm correct, the suggestion of breach of contract is down to disruptive behaviour by some individuals on non-strike days. Strikes (that follow the rules) are legally protected, unofficial action is not.

[Jamie2k9]

Weekend strike called off by SIPTU, talks with both sides underway.

Now all Transdev have to do is not give them the previous offer and hopefully less than the 10% also offered which has been extended. All grades apart from drivers meeting tomorrow. Transdev have not agreed to talk to drivers.

SIPTU and employees have however requested a meeting with DoT

SIPTU also branded the 1916 weekend strike as "In the past"

[Jamie2k9]

RTE reporting, 3 grades likely to vote before Monday on 10% increases over 4 years and long service increment (3%) after 3 years and a 750 lead in payment this year. Some productivity has been agreed including hand held ticket inspection equipment and plane cloths tocket inspection but its voluntary.

Offer must be accepted by Monday or its off the table. The company also keeps the right to cut pay for new entrants.

Same will be applied to drivers on Monday.

[Jamie2k9]

3 grades have all accepted and won't be going on strike Thursday even if drivers do.

RPO - 75%
RPS - 85%
Controllers - 75%

Take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kC2XCiSdEE

It's very well done!

[Jamie2k9]

Drivers requested 26.5% rise yesterday and today Transdev said 10% cut will be imposed if striking continues and work to rule after 04.00 on 29 April.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0426/784441-iarnrod-eireann-nbru-ballot/

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-bosses-drowning-in-cvs-as-hundreds-apply-for-driver-jobs-despite-no-vacancies-until-2017-34671021.html

Luas operator Transdev has been “bombarded” with job applications following the long-running pay dispute.

An inside source said the HR department has received so many hundreds of applications that they were unable to reply to them all.

“The HR person is drowning in a sea of CVs. We had a policy up until now of responding to everybody but we can’t even respond to them now, there are just too many,” the source told Independent.ie.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/were-not-greedy-insist-striking-luas-drivers-on-picket-line-34670032.html
Striking tram drivers strongly rejected claims they were being "greedy" in seeking bigger than normal pay rises and insisted their job was more than "just pushing a lever."

[Mark Gleeson]

Looks like the drivers are about to throw in the towel

They apparently are asking for the deal they so resoundingly rejected http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-drivers-ask-for-deal-they-previously-rejected-reports-1.2631194

[Jamie2k9]

Oh dear, they ain't going to get it, bet Transdev will drive it down 2-3% more or get a lot more concessions. Before Thursday MD said they dropped to 23% off the record.

Knew a full walkout would never happen, to much for drivers to lose more than the public!

Edit - SIPTU have come out and said they have not asked for the offer to be put back on the table.

[Jamie2k9]

Journal reporting that all notice served on Monday will only be for 4 and 8 hour strikes. If it is the case then drivers are really coming under financial pressure.

Should likely expect Transdev to up the anti in terms of wage cuts!

[Jamie2k9]

Number of 4h stoppages for first 2 weeks in June, Ross's first words:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0511/787661-luas-transdev/
A spokesperson for Minister for Transport Shane Ross has said the minister is very disappointed to hear about further strikes being announced by SIPTU and the impact that they will have on commuters.

The spokesperson said Mr Ross is concerned at the protracted nature of this dispute and the disruption caused to passengers, including Leaving Cert students and their families.

He said the minister shares and understands the frustration of commuters at the prospect of further stoppages.

However, he said Mr Ross does not intend to intervene in the dispute, as he has no function in relation to the employment of the Transdev staff.

He said it was up to the employees and their private sector employer to reach a resolution with each other.

He added that if the two sides needed external help, then the State has industrial relations institutions which are available to assist.

[Jamie2k9]

SIPTU and drivers buckle under pressure, strikes on 8/9/10 June moved to 6-10pm so not to impact on LC/JC students. They allege they were not aware of the impact on students when planning.

Transdev will also be rather happy as it's will be a quiet time of day.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Tom Darby will be turning in his grave at this amateur Industrial Antics from SIPTU.

As some wag said on the radio this am, how did the poor Dubliners ever survive before the two Luas lines? :rolleyes:

[berneyarms]

SIPTU and drivers buckle under pressure, strikes on 8/9/10 June moved to 6-10pm so not to impact on LC/JC students. They allege they were not aware of the impact on students when planning.

Transdev will also be rather happy as it's will be a quiet time of day.

Not sure about the last line.

Bear in mind that trams will be taken out of service as they pass the depot the last time before 18:00.

As a result services will wind down from about 90 mins before 6pm - so a fair chunk of the evening peak will be cancelled as well as the four hours from 6pm to 10pm, and there'll be disruption later too.

[Jamie2k9]

Not sure about the last line.

Bear in mind that trams will be taken out of service as they pass the depot the last time before 18:00.

As a result services will wind down from about 90 mins before 6pm - so a fair chunk of the evening peak will be cancelled as well as the four hours from 6pm to 10pm, and there'll be disruption later too.

I think they would prefer the new times because while peak will be impacted the impact will be far less severe and when services resume at 10 pm its a 15-20 minute schedule so not to hard to get back on tract compared to the 5-7 minute after 1pm.

As for winding down 90 minutes before 6pm, not sure how it will work but the strike is from 6pm then I would expect any drivers on an active tram up to 5.59 would have to complete the full journeys.

Irish Rail strikes forced drivers to depart before 6am the last few times even if only 10 minutes so I don't see this been any different unless SIPTU want to expose themselves to legal action.

[James Howard]

Now we find out what this strike is really about

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/luas-operator-seeks-to-run-irish-bus-services-1.2648858

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0516/788700-transdev-sick-pay-scheme/

Luas operator Transdev has suspended the sick pay scheme for workers who have been in dispute with the company over pay.

In a letter sent to SIPTU on Friday, Managing Director Gerry Madden said that the absence rate for Luas drivers is currently running at approximately 12%, with over 10% of that attributable to the sick pay scheme.

He said this compares to an average absence figure for drivers of approximately 4.5% in 2015.

Mr Madden said that such a level of absence is imposing significant additional costs on the company and is highly disruptive to customers.

The letter said the company is now invoking an existing agreement which states that if the absence level rises above 5%, management has the right to suspend individuals from the regular sick pay scheme "in its entirety or as otherwise may be stated".

The company said is suspending all individual drivers from the regular sick pay benefit scheme and will not be processing any regular sick pay payments in the May payroll and thereafter pending a return to normal absence levels.

[James Howard]

I don't understand how the union can object if they aren't disputing the figures. There is an agreement that the sick pay scheme is suspended if absenteeism exceeds 5%. It's running at 12% hence the scheme is suspended.

Uncertified sick leave is entirely at the pleasure of the employer and only works if people aren't abusing it.

[Jamie2k9]

Drivers to lose full days pay for each 4 hour stoppages.....only option is to call it off or put up with the cut. Really put fuel on the fire now as I expect drivers thought they would get away with it!

SIPTU branded them out of control :D

[James Howard]

Short stoppages are kind of taking the mickey a bit. With a stoppage from 6 to 10, you would have no trams for more than 6 hours and really very little incentive to start up again in the evening after 10pm.

The thing with short stoppages is that they do sort of require a bit of co-operation between management and employees. Wouldn't management be entitled to say to drivers they need to drive right up until 6PM and then since they'd signed out for a tram, they'd be responsible for it until the end of the strike period and so would basically be stuck on it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Rule book says driver cannot leave a tram unattended unless control say ok, so everyone is going back to depot

[James Howard]

It is going to be interesting to see the reaction to this. I am surprised at Transdev's approach. I would have expected them to take the same approach as the last Irish Rail strike where any journeys started before stopping time had to be finished before anyone went back to depot. That would have been enough to take the teeth out of a 6PM stop.

Transdev's approach is high-risk and I can see it causing more disruption than the planned stoppage but perhaps the shift-change arrangements make it a moot point anyway.

[Jamie2k9]

It is going to be interesting to see the reaction to this. I am surprised at Transdev's approach. I would have expected them to take the same approach as the last Irish Rail strike where any journeys started before stopping time had to be finished before anyone went back to depot. That would have been enough to take the teeth out of a 6PM stop.

Transdev's approach is high-risk and I can see it causing more disruption than the planned stoppage but perhaps the shift-change arrangements make it a moot point anyway.

They only have two options to respond:
1 - Call off the 4 days and issue new 24/48 hour strikes with 3 weeks notice
2 - Work for free and strike for the 4 hours

They cannot do anything else and if they call it off it will be an embarrassment to them and SIPTU however I'm not sure they will work either.

The response to the above will be important as it will test drivers and the union as if they call it off they showing they are coming under financial pressure. As one of the Stuarts said last we "we are not moving on this", well we will find out on Friday how committed they are!

The approach is high risk but also high reward, I must say I would of expected the 10% cut to be increased and not this but Transdev are not messing around. They are making SIPTU look pathetic and they are out at sea as nobody has ever stood up to them like TD in a long time if at all.

I fully expect Transdev will also ensure trams run until 17.59 if they go ahead, they would be stupid not to

I don't think the latest action will be enough for SIPTU to sanction an all out vote however I think that if it continues jobs will be next and it may happen then.

Transdev will stick it out and with them bidding for bus routes as well they do seem committed to Ireland. Think the costs would need to exceed well over a million before they consider the position.

It has made the NBRU pipe up again today ahead of their meetings with Irish Rail tomorrow. Something tells me we won't be seeing anything less than 24h stoppages if they happen within IE again.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The sick pay thing seems to be, from what I have read, a no risk thing legally for Transdev to do. Even if they are breeching the contract the only remedy the union has is to go the WRC or the Labour Court, which is where they already are. There seems to be a bit of clever PR by Transdev - the % of sick days is usually per employee, not the workforce as a whole and if you as an individual haven't gone over it they cant suspend you - and certainly not retrospectively. As SIPTU says, if they had done it they would be injuncted. Welcome to the 21st Century lads.

As for striking days pay deductions, I'm actually shocked that they have obviously been paid during their strike days up till now. There is no obligation on Transdev to do it. They may be breeching the contract of employment by deducting an entire days pay for a 4 hour stoppage, but again, the first port of call to settle these claims is the WRC/Labour court so there is pretty little the union can do at this moment.

The whole thing has been a PR disaster from the union anyway. They lost this dispute in the eyes of the public from day one with the 52% thing (even though the Junior Doctors thing has been debunked its still commonly being accepted, along with the line that Luas drivers only slide a thing up and down).

Transdev say they have no dosh, but they can afford to bid for Bus Routes. That'll be fun, search for Transdev on twitter and see what our UK neighbours have to say about their bus operations.

Interesting few lines from an independent article last month:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/luas-operator-transdev-put-up-10m-bond-for-nonperformance-34593180.html

Transdev reported a loss of around €700,000 in its last fiscal year.

Losses for this year are likely to be "significantly higher" in light of strike action, one person familiar with the difficulties said.

The contract to operate the Luas "is, purely fiscally, not worth hanging onto" for Transdev, the person said.

Transdev's UK and Ireland chief executive Nigel Stevens maintained last week that the company is "100pc committed to the fulfilment of the current contract up to 2019 and hopes that its role in the Irish market can extend long beyond this."

Luas would appear to to being operated by Transdev as an opening for bigger fish in the irish market, and despite their saying otherwise, they seem to have no problem getting cash from somewhere to plug the €700,000 last year.

[Jamie2k9]

They have lost 11 full days pay already, TD said the fines were 1.1 milion and they saved around 400,000-500,000 in wages. Not sure how you thought they were paid.

As for the Indo comments pinch of salt comes to mind, given when the contract was agreed/renwed in 2009? lots has changed since then. We know TII will be paying out more for next contract.

Could well be some creative accounting goong on!

Buses a different story but the fact someone other than DB in Dublin is good.

[Thomas J Stamp]

They have lost 11 full days pay already, TD said the fines were 1.1 milion and they saved around 400,000-500,000 in wages. Not sure how you thought they were paid.

As for the Indo comments pinch of salt comes to mind, given when the contract was agreed/renwed in 2009? lots has changed since then. We know TII will be paying out more for next contract.

Could well be some creative accounting goong on!

Buses a different story but the fact someone other than DB in Dublin is good.

if they weren't being paid, why is it news that their pay is about to be docked for going on further strikes? that's what struck me as odd.

[Colm Moore]

If I have it right:

Original situation, before strike - paid as normal, with bonus

Non-strike days at the start of the strike - paid as normal, no bonus
Full days strike at the start of the strike - not paid

Non-strike days now - paid, less 10%, no bonus
Part-day strike now - paid for hours worked less the time it takes the tram to get back to depot, less 10%, no bonus
Full days strike now - not paid

So if a tram is at The Point before a strike and it will take 30-40 minutes to get back to the depot out of service, then they aren't paid for that 30-40 minutes.

[Jamie2k9]

If I have it right:

Original situation, before strike - paid as normal, with bonus

Non-strike days at the start of the strike - paid as normal, no bonus
Full days strike at the start of the strike - not paid

Non-strike days now - paid, less 10%, no bonus
Part-day strike now - paid for hours worked less the time it takes the tram to get back to depot, less 10%, no bonus
Full days strike now - not paid

So if a tram is at The Point before a strike and it will take 30-40 minutes to get back to the depot out of service, then they aren't paid for that 30-40 minutes.

I think your correct, expect no pay for full day during partial strikes.

Today both sides accused one another of been unlawful! TD reiterated they were not going to treat drivers any different to other grands in terms of pay. They said they will do further lawful things is it's not resolved soon.

All eyes on the response today from them!

[Thomas J Stamp]

you cant deduct pay on a non strike day if you have already not paid them for a strike day, that's illegal for a start under the payments of wages act.

I was listening to the end of the pat Kenny show today and they were talking about it, and there is some confusion about the sick pay being stopped. There is a difference of belief out there (which is all it is till we actually see a luas drivers contract) that the sick pay scheme is open to suspension if there is a culmative workforce wide usage over a certain % of days. If so, whoever negotiated that for the workers (probably SIPTU) is a cretin. All such benefits and entitlements should accrue individually and be governed individually not globally. If someone who has never gone sick now has to, they're screwed (if this is true, SIPTU says it isn't and therefore illegal).

You do wonder, again, where TD are getting the money for the fines (about a million) and to fund the operating losses from, since they say they have only the fee they were paid by the Gov to run the service as their only source of income.

[Jamie2k9]

Ballot for all out strike to take place within 2 weeks.....but they seem disparate to return to WRC or Labour Court.

TD have also cut some annual leave as well apparently.

Edit- All out comments from shop stewart, SIPTU have taken no decision on it.

[Mark Gleeson]

One interesting point is Transdev have not been fined, the 10 million euro bond is untouched.

Transdev don't get paid for day where the service isn't provided thats about 100,000 euro/day.

TII/NTA have two nuclear options
1. Call in the 10 million bond
2. Terminate and step in


SIPTU really want the terminate and step in as it gets Transdev out of the way and then its the state cheque book.

[Jamie2k9]

One interesting point is Transdev have not been fined, the 10 million euro bond is untouched.

Transdev don't get paid for day where the service isn't provided thats about 100,000 euro/day.

TII/NTA have two nuclear options
1. Call in the 10 million bond
2. Terminate and step in


SIPTU really want the terminate and step in as it gets Transdev out of the way and then its the state cheque book.

We know the NTA/TII won't do either option, it would be counter productive and costly if they did. We could manage with no Luas service pretty well over the summer months if it comes to that and SUPTU know that. The Dail on holidays would also help. DB etc all cut schedules so they have capacity if needed.

The disagreement between SIPTU and Shop Stuart last night is interesting and the union have said today they would support drivers but you get the impression it's something they really don't want.

Bet an all out ballot may not get 100% backing at all by some drivers.

[Mickey H]

What is the earliest date an all out strike could start?

[Jamie2k9]

What is the earliest date an all out strike could start?

If it comes to it probably from first/second week in July at the earliest. 3 weeks notice required, 1 or 2 weeks for the ballot and probably another week or two before a final decision is taken.

[Colm Moore]

You do wonder, again, where TD are getting the money for the fines (about a million) and to fund the operating losses from, since they say they have only the fee they were paid by the Gov to run the service as their only source of income.Transdev get nothing from the government - all day-to-day costs and some renewals (but not capital or TII / NTA costs) are funded from fares.

[Jamie2k9]

Security on the Luas next to vote for strike action, % increase was offered but it's below that of those with Irish Rail.

SIPTU have an agreement with TD that such strike action won't be presumed but SIPTU say they will support workers if action is taken.

Not clear if Luas can operate without them.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/luas-security-staff-to-vote-on-strike-action-34737629.html

[Mark Gleeson]

Luas does not have a safety requirement to have security present. Rare to see them anyway and useless when something happens.

Security are contracted from a outside firm STT. The rate of pay is set by STT not Transdev. Transdev could quite legitimately hire in security from Brinks as STT will be in breach of contract is a strike occurs.

So questionable if they can picket the Luas depots as they are not the employer

[Jamie2k9]

Looks like SIPTU wont break the STT agreement just yet.

[Jamie2k9]

Both off to Labour Court tomorrow and action for tomorrow and Friday cancelled.

[Thomas J Stamp]

only place left to go.

[Jamie2k9]

LAB Court says:
1 - Pay rises up 15.6 to Sep 2020 (add 2.5% for long serving drivers)
2 - TD should not increase duty from 9 to 9.5 hours
3 - New entrant pay should be reviewed within 18 months of acceptance
4 - Non cost issues to go WRC or LAB Court if no agreement
5 - Joint review of Pay/Conditions of tram drivers accross Europe
6 - No 2016 bonus but 750 payment if accepted
7 - 10% cut, sick pay etc restord incl arrears if accepted

TD not going to make comment until end of week.

SIPTU to begin consolation with members through general meetings followed by ballot. Does that suggest they are going over shop stewards heads as they sort of indicated a while ago they would discuss with drivers and committee separately. The pay is over 4 years the other grads is for 3 years and the deal could be considered slightly worse on pay terms than the WRC one but productivity might clinch it.

18.7% (2016-2019) v 18.3% (2016-2020 + some lost pay, less productivity). Still just under 5% off the muted 23% drivers wanted.

Looks like this weeks action also called off or will be.

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0531/792139-siptu-luas-labour-court/

SIPTU will not be issuing a recommendation to accept or reject the Labour Court recommendation.

Sources said the Luas drivers' committee are of different opinions as to whether it should be accepted or rejected.

They said that on that basis, there would be no "wholesale message of endorsement or rejection" from the driver representatives.

The decision to ballot was taken at a meeting between SIPTU officials and driver shop stewards at Liberty Hall today.

It is understood there will be a number of general meetings of drivers tomorrow to cover the various shifts.

The ballot is expected to take place on Thursday and Friday.

If the Labour Court recommendation is accepted by Friday, drivers stand to receive a €750 lead-in payment.

If rejected it could well be the start of internal tensions among the more less "united" drivers up until now.

Believe it is also the first time that reps are not bringing it back to depots but calling them all in to meeting with SIPTU instead.

[Jamie2k9]

And it's over, accepted by 66%

[Mark Gleeson]

In the words of Brian Friel, "its all over, and its all about to begin"

Counting down till the NBRU roll in, 5, 4, 3,.....