Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[ThomasJ]

can be found here:
http://www.irishrail.ie/news/public-consultation-for-2016-dart-and-connolly-intercity-and-commuter-services

changes include:

19:00hrs connolly rosslare

19:15hrs connolly sligo

[Mark Gleeson]

It is sadly a return to the chaotic timetable of the past. Clockface has be junked on Sligo and Rosslare

Still can't get into Dublin before 9am on a Sunday
No improvement in late evening departures
The morning Rosslare Dundalk now arrives Pearse too late for a 9am start

[shweeney]

also extra 3-5 minutes running time on most Darts (why?), and the 0800 from Greystones is pushed back to 0804 making it useless for many commuters with a 9am start (this is the busiest train on the network).

[ACustomer]

I didn't see this thread when I posted the following on the Enterprise refurbishment thread. It's more relevant here:

The draft timetable may show more even departure intervals for the Enterprise, but the trains are mostly slower: nothing shorter than 2h 15m. The new early departure from Belfast takes 2h 26 mins.

What's driving this is the new 10-minute interval DART service, which seems to slow everything up. I know that this really needs a new thread, but the Rosslare times have really gone to hell, and the Bray-Howth darts are generally about 75 minutes (remember when they took just 60?).

So you have to wait about 5 minutes less for a DART, and then finds it takes maybe 5 to 10 minutes longer to make the journey. Brilliant! Only on Irish Rail.....

[Inniskeen]

What a spectacular downgrade for just about everbody except DART users. If this disaster of a timetable is implemented most Connolly rail services will become a near irrelevance for Inter-City and longer distance commuters. There may well be some extra off peak DART passengers but many people who have other options will simply walk away from this hugely unattractive timetable.

Pay more, spend longer to get there and by the way the chances of this thing working reliably are next to nil.

Can't see myself renewing my very expensive annual ticket for this pathetic offering, far worse than I expected.

[Jamie2k9]

Sligo
So a new 07.30/09.30 M-F replaces 08.00 and 16.00 services. While I accept the 16.00 is not needed neither is an 07.30/09.30 service out of Connolly as the simple reason was in 2013 they were scrapped because of no demand and nothing has changes. The 07.30 will now operate the 11.00 up. Surly it would make more sense for the 08.00 to remain and stick a 7 coach on either the 15.35/19.15 instead and work the 11.00 that way. There is the "service in balance" argument however the reality is it does not matter once demand is been meet. It is a complete waste restoring morning service ex Connolly. Running the 16.10 everyday instead would make more sense or even push it to 16.35 and ease the 17.05 service instead of a 07.30 service. Only reason I can think of is 3 coaches wouldn't be enough for 11.00 up.

Journey times appear way to excessive for:
14.05 takes 3h28m
16.10 FO takes 3h35m

13.00 to Dublin drops Enfield.

Belfast
Good to see a much improved scheduling for this service despite a journey times been longer on a few.

[shweeney]

will RUI be making a submission on this?

[James Howard]

My main concern is Sligo so I haven't really looked at anything else. They've made a right mess of the departure times - all in the interest of the DART users I suppose. But specifically, I see a big issue with the 1705 service leaving Connolly to go behind a 1700 Docklands departure. This will never have the slightest hope of being on-time.

The 1915 will be positive if they've delayed this to avoid the 10 minute wait every evening at Killucan crossing with the 1800 from Sligo. Otherwise, it'll just be another 10 minutes gone from everyone's day.

The big problem is the 0545 to Dublin moving 10 minutes earlier without a significant change to the arrival time. We can also only hope that they might change the evening down Longford fast service to a 22k which would mean I could avoid the 1915.

[KSW]

Dublin-Gorey-Rosslare is a joke. Journey times are 1hr50 plus minutes. Fares are expensive for longer times and few trains. A complete joke, I haven't took the train in some years now do not see the advantage to it VS bus €19.50 Gorey Dublin return 1hr20 quicker and nearly €10 cheaper with four times more services than IRISH rail.

[Padna]

The changes to the Dublin-Belfast timetable should make the Enterprise service more attractive for commuters, especially cross-border commuters. Those travelling into Dublin will be able to arrive at 0841 (current equivalent 0904) and depart at 1710 (current equivalent 1650), which will be more closely aligned with the traditional 0900 to 1700 working day. For those travelling into Belfast a 0925 arrival, although still a bit on the late side, is a lot better than the current 0945 arrival. The peak evening departure will still be at 1805, so this would suit anyone who could work from say 0945 to 1745.

[Inniskeen]

I would imagine that the 1710 to Belfast will be very overcrowded as most of the few remaining Dundalk commuters will try to get this train to avoid the miserably unattractive journey times on later services.

[MaryC]

17:13 train from Pearse now leaves from Connolly :mad: or am I mistaken. Are they nuts. That train is full leaving Pearse and the 17:07 to Balbriggan from Connolly is gone. That was another full train. So if you could make Connolly by 17:12 it's going to be crazy. For those of you who cannot make it, you have to wait till 17:23. So on top of the extra time it's going to take in the morning (trains leaving earlier and getting in later) its going to work out an hour exta a week from leaving home to getting back in the evening. It's a crazy schedule. It's time to start looking at other commuting options.

[ACustomer]

More on just how bad these proposals are:

1. The 10-minute fixed-interval DART service. This apparently applies throughout the day. Fine for peak hours but what about mid-morning or early afternoon, never mind later at night? The LUAS does not attempt anything like this: tram intervals range for 3 to 4 minutes at the morning peak to 7 or 8 minutes late morning etc. It must be hugely uneconomic in the off-peak hours to operate a peak-hour service.

2. The slower journey times. OK these are probably a consequence of the 10-minute DARTS, but there is a huge paradox in operating slower trains which reduce line capacity (because by definition they increase time spent in block sections) when the most acute problem is inadequate headway between trains.

Are they stuck with this 10-minute stuff because of some funding arrangement on service levels with the NTA? How slow will things be then the Park Tunnel trains start operating to Connolly?

[James Shields]

I think there are some good things. The northern line commuter trains seem to have better spacing, and they no longer serve Portmarnock or Clongriffin, which takes a couple of minutes off journey times.

I can see the earlier morning Enterprise being a huge hit with commuters, and overcrowding seems inevitable. Would there be a case for making the extra commuter train serving just Dundalk/Drogheda/Connolly that's been running ahead of it during the refurbishment a permanent fixture?

James

[Jamie2k9]

1. The 10-minute fixed-interval DART service. This apparently applies throughout the day. Fine for peak hours but what about mid-morning or early afternoon, never mind later at night? The LUAS does not attempt anything like this: tram intervals range for 3 to 4 minutes at the morning peak to 7 or 8 minutes late morning etc. It must be hugely uneconomic in the off-peak hours to operate a peak-hour service.

Luas ranges up to 15-20 minutes before close of service, kicks in after 21.00 ish and early morning.

I think it's safe to say it will be 2 coach DARTS off peak and all 4 coach at peak times perhaps. The 10 minute freq is not remotely sustainable after 8pm or before 7am.

It's another ego boost just like the successful 06.15 out of Cork

Anyone able to see what slots have been left for Kildare-GCD?

[shweeney]

who benefits from the extra frequency - whilst I like the idea of "turn up and go" most regular commuters get the same train every day - they will now need to get an earlier train to arrive at the same time because of the increased running time.

Irish Rail in the papers today admitting the slower Darts and saying this is a consequence of the increased frequency, but this still doesn't make sense to me - where is the time being lost, dwell times should reduce if anything (and they're already very leisurely).

[Mark Gleeson]

The frequency excuse doesn't match, 70 minutes end to end is more than enough

Every minute saved on a DART is a minute saved on a commuter/intercity trip also

Pre 7am and post 10pm there is no justification for 10 minute service, could use the money saved by running 15 minutes interval here to provide the long sought after later services on DART and on Maynooth on a Sunday

[berneyarms]

17:13 train from Pearse now leaves from Connolly :mad: or am I mistaken. Are they nuts. That train is full leaving Pearse and the 17:07 to Balbriggan from Connolly is gone. That was another full train. So if you could make Connolly by 17:12 it's going to be crazy. For those of you who cannot make it, you have to wait till 17:23. So on top of the extra time it's going to take in the morning (trains leaving earlier and getting in later) its going to work out an hour exta a week from leaving home to getting back in the evening. It's a crazy schedule. It's time to start looking at other commuting options.

To answer your questions, as far as I can figure out the new timetable proposes:

Deferring the 16:14 Pearse-Drogheda to 16:23
Deferring the 16:44 Pearse-Drogheda to 16:53
Deferring the 16:50 Connolly-Belfast to 17:10
Deferring the 17:07 Connolly-Balbriggan to 17:12
Deferring the 17:13 Pearse-Dundalk to 17:28
Deferring the 17:28 Pearse-Drogheda to 17:43
Deferring the 17:55 Pearse-Dundalk to 18:03
Deferring the 18:15 Pearse-Drogheda to 18:23

[James Shields]

Looking a little deeper, the early morning Enterprise leaves Drogheda 07:54 and arrives 08:41, taking 47 minutes.

There's also a non-stop commuter train at 08:20 arriving at 09:09 - 49 minutes.

The rest of the Enterprise services running between Connolly and Drogheda take between 36 and 39 minutes. On the current timetable most take 30 to 35 minutes, and when I first moved to Drogheda there were a few that did it in 25 minutes!

James

[Mark Gleeson]

Connolly Drogheda I think got to 27 minutes at best in the very early days, only a 22k/C3K could really do that. 30 miles from a standing start with the first mile at 20mph and 4 miles at 70, then a brief 90 before 50 through Malahide.


There is some fun and games, the 16:53 Pearse Drogheda is overtaken by the 1710 to Belfast between Skerries and Ballbriggan

[Inniskeen]

When the upgraded Enterprise started in1997 it was routine to reach Drogheda in under 28 minutes with under 26 minutes not particularly uncommon. My fastest trip was marginally over 24 minutes. So 47 minutes is almost double what uncongested infrastructure would deliver.

The amount of slots north of Connolly allocated to DART is already grossly disproportionate to the traffic carried, the revised timetable greatlly increases the imbalance. Even at the busiest point immeduately north of East Wall Junction DART only accounts for 58% of the numbers travelling.

Interesting this timetable proves my concerns about DART underground - without additional physical tracks trains more DARTs mean more congestion and slower journey times. This is not a strategy that will result in extra business but wiil simply drive people away.

[berneyarms]

When the upgraded Enterprise started in1997 it was routine to reach Drogheda in under 28 minutes with under 26 minutes not particularly uncommon. My fastest trip was marginally over 24 minutes. So 47 minutes is almost double what uncongested infrastructure would deliver.

The amount of slots north of Connolly allocated to DART is already grossly disproportionate to the traffic carried, the revised timetable greatlly increases the imbalance. Even at the busiest point immeduately north of East Wall Junction DART only accounts for 58% of the numbers travelling.

Interesting this timetable proves my concerns about DART underground - without additional physical tracks trains more DARTs mean more congestion and slower journey times. This is not a strategy that will result in extra business but wiil simply drive people away.

That's somewhat of a subjective viewpoint as you are clearly looking at it solely from the perspective of an Enterprise user. Most northern line commuter services are taking the same length of time (some off-peak taking longer) as before so I'm struggling to see how view this as "far worse than you expected" in your earlier post?

I'm not sure that the extra time on the Enterprise services is necessarily going to "drive people away", but on the other hand people may leave their cars/buses and revert to DART with the attraction of a 10 minute frequency. This very much turns DART into a "turn up and go" service between Howth Junction and Bray. Unfortunately, it's somewhat of a chicken and egg situation.

I do agree with you on one point - the infrastructure deficit on the Northern line does finally need to be addressed by solid capital investment proposals - four tracking has to become part of the overall strategy.

Unfortunately I have yet to see a single timetable change that has ever pleased everyone. That's kind of inevitable.

[ACustomer]

Strange how on the Heuston side a lot is being spent to increase line speeds and reduce journey times, presumably in the belief that this will attract more custom. Yet on the Connolly side they are blithely increasing journey times on Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare routes: do they expect that this will not adversely effect custom?

Someone please explain.

[berneyarms]

Strange how on the Heuston side a lot is being spent to increase line speeds and reduce journey times, presumably in the belief that this will attract more custom. Yet on the Connolly side they are blithely increasing journey times on Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare routes: do they expect that this will not adversely effect custom?

Someone please explain.

The Heuston side isn't sharing track space with an intensive city suburban service - that's the simple difference.

Also the amount being spent on the Heuston side is miniscule by comparison with what would be required to deliver separate lines on the Connolly side.

[shweeney]

it's somewhat disingenuous that the consultation page on IE's website trumpets the 10 minute frequency but doesn't mention anywhere the increased running times.

[James Howard]

Technically, for a turn up and go user, the time will be worse. At 15 minute frequency, the average wait time is 7.5 minutes. So you'll gain 2.5 minutes from frequency but lose 3 minutes in journey time.

People I've talked to at my station are very unhappy about this. For the normal commuter train pair on Longford commuter (0545 Sligo up, 1805 down), we are looking at 20 minutes longer in the day.

[Commuter101]

Will any comments sent to IR re the proposed timetable be considered by IR at all? Or is it already decided upon and anyone who does take the time to comment will just be wasting their time?!

[markpb]

Technically, for a turn up and go user, the time will be worse. At 15 minute frequency, the average wait time is 7.5 minutes. So you'll gain 2.5 minutes from frequency but lose 3 minutes in journey time

People making short journeys (i.e. Dart passengers) tend not to think about it that way. Wait time is more of a consideration than journey time, especially for ad-hoc passengers.

Dart has a bad reputation for being infrequent and having silly, unpredictable gaps between trains. They've been working on it for the last few years but it'll take time to lose that image. A 10 minute gap goes a long way towards achieving that (notwithstanding the negative impact on other services).

[ThomasJ]

i hate that there is an outbound maynooth train at connolly at 17:58 followed by a 22 minute gap, then a train coming from bray at connolly at 18:20, then a train at 18:50

given past performance, if there is delays to inbound services south of Pearse, especially the increased number of DARTs, if something goes wrong, thats a very long wait for Maynooth line passengers.

[Inniskeen]

My issue with DART is not frequency but reliability, the last 4 or 5 weeks have been particularly poor. I know Irish Rail think people are unreasonably critical but DART seems extraordinarily susceptiple to slipping (it rarely goes fast enough to slide) and I dread to think what the 2016 season will be like if this new timetable is implemented.

[shweeney]

People making short journeys (i.e. Dart passengers) tend not to think about it that way. Wait time is more of a consideration than journey time, especially for ad-hoc passengers.


the vast majority of Dart users are not ad-hoc passengers though, they're regular commuters and they'll notice the difference. I also suspect there's a disproportionate number of commuters from further out (e.g. DunL to Greystones on the southside) who will all have an extra 10 minutes added onto their days. For some commuters this may be cancelled out by being able to get a later service than before but I doubt anyone will be spending less time travelling overall.

Also - is this actually adding any capacity, I don't think there are any Darts sets lying around idle during the rush hour so it'll be the same number of carriages in service just split into more trains, yeah?

[shweeney]

My issue with DART is not frequency but reliability, the last 4 or 5 weeks have been particularly poor. I know Irish Rail think people are unreasonably critical but DART seems extraordinarily susceptiple to slipping (it rarely goes fast enough to slide) and I dread to think what the 2016 season will be like if this new timetable is implemented.

this new timetable looks like they're implementing an autumn schedule all year round. Every train I've been on since October has been at least 5 minutes late so presumably they're getting crucified on the punctuality statistics (not that that has any real consequences for Irish Rail).

Solution? Extra timetable padding all year round. They're banking on people accepting this because the alternatives (driving or getting the bus) are even worse.

[Jamie2k9]

Will any comments sent to IR re the proposed timetable be considered by IR at all? Or is it already decided upon and anyone who does take the time to comment will just be wasting their time?!

Any changes of under 5 minutes have a "slim" change however any sort of bigger changes will be completely off the table unless significant volume of passengers for example request x service to not change.

[berneyarms]

My issue with DART is not frequency but reliability, the last 4 or 5 weeks have been particularly poor. I know Irish Rail think people are unreasonably critical but DART seems extraordinarily susceptiple to slipping (it rarely goes fast enough to slide) and I dread to think what the 2016 season will be like if this new timetable is implemented.

the vast majority of Dart users are not ad-hoc passengers though, they're regular commuters and they'll notice the difference. I also suspect there's a disproportionate number of commuters from further out (e.g. DunL to Greystones on the southside) who will all have an extra 10 minutes added onto their days. For some commuters this may be cancelled out by being able to get a later service than before but I doubt anyone will be spending less time travelling overall.

Also - is this actually adding any capacity, I don't think there are any Darts sets lying around idle during the rush hour so it'll be the same number of carriages in service just split into more trains, yeah?

this new timetable looks like they're implementing an autumn schedule all year round. Every train I've been on since October has been at least 5 minutes late so presumably they're getting crucified on the punctuality statistics (not that that has any real consequences for Irish Rail).

Solution? Extra timetable padding all year round. They're banking on people accepting this because the alternatives (driving or getting the bus) are even worse.

Let's be honest DART reliability could be better even outside of the Autumn leaf fall period.

I suspect that this change is a recognition that the current timetable is simply not achievable and that as a result more realistic running times are being developed.

Personally, I'd prefer that the timetable be robust, particularly given the increase in frequencies, even if that means slightly longer journey times.

There's no point in maintaining a timetable that isn't achievable.

[Eddie]

I understood that the increased frequency was to be at peak time only. This seemed like a good idea. If it was a success, then increased frequency at off-peak periods could then be investigated.

It's only a couple of years since 2 carriage Darts were introduced off-peak. It's a while since I've seen one of these, and 6 or 8 carriage Darts off-peak does seem to be quite wasteful. My recollection is that passenger traffic growth is only in single digits, probably not enough to warrant longer trains or increased frequency off-peak.

[markpb]

My recollection is that passenger traffic growth is only in single digits, probably not enough to warrant longer trains or increased frequency off-peak.

Increased frequency should bring growth by itself. Luas does quite well all day long but Dart carriages are like morgues after rush hour - perhaps it's because Luas is convenient for passengers?

[Inniskeen]

That's somewhat of a subjective viewpoint as you are clearly looking at it solely from the perspective of an Enterprise user. Most northern line commuter services are taking the same length of time (some off-peak taking longer) as before so I'm struggling to see how view this as "far worse than you expected" in your earlier post?

I'm not sure that the extra time on the Enterprise services is necessarily going to "drive people away", but on the other hand people may leave their cars/buses and revert to DART with the attraction of a 10 minute frequency. This very much turns DART into a "turn up and go" service between Howth Junction and Bray. Unfortunately, it's somewhat of a chicken and egg situation.

I do agree with you on one point - the infrastructure deficit on the Northern line does finally need to be addressed by solid capital investment proposals - four tracking has to become part of the overall strategy.

Unfortunately I have yet to see a single timetable change that has ever pleased everyone. That's kind of inevitable.

While I am an Enterprise user, I also use DART and commuter services, the latter two more frequently than the Enterprise. Indeed a lot of my use of the Enterprise is to avoid the depressingly slow commuter trains which like the Enterprise have been subjected to significant cumulative journey time increases over successive timetable iterations.

At almost any time of the day, I can drive from my house to the city centre in about the same time as the Enterprise would currently take. In the morning I can leave home, by car, 15 to 20 minutes behind a commuter service and arrive in Sydney Parade at least 10 minutes before it shows up. So even point to point journey times are uncompetitive, let alone those that involve a change of train or change of mode. Add to that the significant delays that occur to morning or evening services multiple times a week and you have an offering which is of diminishing appeal especially to longer distance commuters. If you drive up the M1 at almost any time of the day it is buzzing and clearly the railway has lost very significant market share not just to motorists but also to express bus operators.

As for the proposed timetable, it is a credit to the architect in that a considerable effort has been made to produce something that might just be operationally deliverable. The poor signalling and track layout at Malahide, contention at Howth Junction, the lack of an up loop at Clongriffin and even tighter working between Bray and Greystones may well conspire to produce a significantly poorer operating performance than at present. There may well be six DARTs an hour but they will probably turn up in bunches. Alternatively Greystones passengers may find there train held in Bray to take up the path of the following service.

You suggest that this new timetable is effectively an attempt to reverse the long term decline in DART usage. It may do that to some modest degree although I suspect that any gains will be offset by a decline in the usage of other services which, with a few exceptions, have been significantly downgraded.

The issue brought into stark focus by this proposed timetable essentially boils down to whether it makes more sense to impose a journey time penalty of anything up to 20 minutes for passengers travelling to/from stations north of Malahide to facilitate a disproportionate number of comparatively lightly used off peak DARTs. North of Connolly DART accounts for something close to 55% of passengers during the course of a normal working day but already gobbles up 66% of the operating slots. Under this proposal at least 75% of northern line slots will be taken by DART.

The hopelessly uncompetitive journey times to stations south of Greystones means that this line will struggle to maintain even marginal relevance in the medium to long term. The minimal usage figures for stations like Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey and Enniscorthy set out in the 2014 NTA census are stark and depressing . The near empty car parks tell the same story. The same fate would now appear to await the northern line as Irish Rail seeks to implement tram style services on an inflexible and inadequate infrastructure.

And yes there will always be people who don't like a particular change to the timetable, but it is very rare to so significantly degrade one class of user in favour of another unless you are a commercial operator seeking to maximise revenue - this timetable most assuredly won't do that as the higher fare paying passengers are those most likely to walk given that the average DART journey is no more than 9 km !

[James Shields]

I totally agree with the earlier comment that the line needs to be widened to 4 tracks between Connolly and Malahide. This will not be cheap, and to be honest, I don't see money for it becoming available while FineGael are in government.

I don't think it's a showstopper for DART Underground, but I think the northern line is a bottleneck that's going to have to be looked at eventually.

[Traincustomer]

While I have nothing against increasing the DART to every ten minutes the effect on the Rosslare line is truly dire with increases in journey times of over ten minutes for the majority of trains.

Measured end to end the increased journey times for Connolly – Rosslare trains M-F would be: +12, +12, +20 (no typo), + 9 & + 13.

The corresponding journey duration increases for City-bound journeys would be + 17, +6, +8, +13 & +8.

Appreciably with infrastructural constraints an enhanced DART offering is going to result in a level of trade off and as a previous poster commented the timetable needs to be robust.

But increases in journey times of the order that are proposed appear considerably beyond the reasonable parameters of robustness and give & take, are a step too far and raise the question as to what exactly is the medium to long term plan for the entire line along the eastern seaboard south of the capital?

The line could for instance facilitate commuting between the key towns in Co. Wicklow such as Wicklow and Arklow. Yet the first train from Wicklow to Arklow is well after ten in the morning. No daytime service for Kilcoole. No additional service, even as a shuttle south of Greystones, to grow business. Plus a number of scheduled out of service train positioning movements at least some of which could operate in service.

The NTA press release and indeed IÉ’s own release are silent when it comes to the South Eastern line. This timetable is essentially fuelling a vicious circle. The only aspect of the proposed timetable that is likely to be well-received by the majority is that it is intended to defer the last train from the city to the slightly later time of 19.00.

The apparent absence of any vision in Iarnród Éireann, the National Transport Authority and The Department of Transport for this line is extremely disappointing.

Nobody is expecting the “sun, moon & stars” but users have a reasonable expectation to a better service than this plus a targeted plan to incrementally enhance the service offering along the line.

[Inniskeen]

I totally agree with the earlier comment that the line needs to be widened to 4 tracks between Connolly and Malahide. This will not be cheap, and to be honest, I don't see money for it becoming available while FineGael are in government.

I don't think it's a showstopper for DART Underground, but I think the northern line is a bottleneck that's going to have to be looked at eventually.

Given the dramatic impact on other services of increasing DART frequency from 4 to 6 services per direction per hour, the DART underground proposal (based on the published business case frequencies) would have a crippling effect on journey times along the northern line and reduce the average speed of Belfast services to about 30 mph between Dublin and Drogheda. Does anybody think this is sustainable ? The strategy seems to assume that longer distance commuters and Enterprise users either don't matter or should be so grateul to have a service that they should lap up whatever journey time or service contortions that are required to suit DART operations.

As for the South Eastern line, south of Greystones, it will propably linger on in a Nenagh-like limbo for five or ten years until either a new financial crisis emerges or some major piece of capital expenditure arises. Comparison with the huge success NIR have made of the Belfast - Derry line gives an idea of what could be achieved with a decent service and moderately attractive journey times.

[OisinDunne]

Off peak on Northern line, why not run 4 carriages to link with Malahide arriving 5 mins before a dart and return north 5 mins after dart arrival. Surly no real need to run all the way to city centre if (big if) it will increase services.

16:29 ex Balbriggan to Drogheda is gone. Only options for school kids now is 16:07 (when school finishes at 16:00) or wait until 17:07.

Asking my 13 year old to wait for over an hour.....don't think so IR. Will make arrangements with private bus transfers if this timetable goes in.

Changes to services on the Northern line are never looked at with the big picture view.

[Inniskeen]

I had wondered about schools, Irish Rail have fallen into this trap time and again over the years at Balbriggan. As for trains turning back northwards at Malahide, the infrastructure at Malahide wouldn't really support such an arrangement.

[Dublin13]

As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers.

From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings.

17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction.

17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.

18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services.

This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one.

The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly.

There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.

[Dublin13]

On the topic of the Malahide branch, which is clearly the poor cousin of the Howth dart in the current timetable....

As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers.

From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings.

17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction.

17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.

18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services.

This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one.

The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly.

There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.

[Inniskeen]

Yes this is a good aspect to the timetable although I suspect that the 4-car trains will still be a feature of the rush hour. Nonetheless the infrastructure is not configured to support the pattern of operation in the new timetable and increased delays and congestion are probably inevitable.

[Dublin13]

The 4 car trains I don't think would be such a big problem on the proposed new timetable, at least for the trains that I get

The overcrowding is due to a combination of the pathetic timetable and awful balance between Howth and Malahide, and the shorter trains.

Between 5.32pm and 6.31pm for instance there are FIVE Howth trains meanwhile there are just two Malahide Trains between 5.30pm and 7.00pm.

If the trains are more frequent or they lengthen them, you'd still have busy trains, but at least they won't be like sardines.

Of course people on Howth branch will moan, but quite frankly that side of things is VASTLY over-served right now as the passenger numbers on those trains show.

Last week I took a train to Howth which ran about 6 minutes ahead of a Malahide one, got off at Howth Junction and there was about 8 people left on my carriage and not many more on the others.

I walk over the bridge at Howth Junction to the Malahide service, and can barely find somewhere to stand in reach of a grab rail. The difference in loading is that extreme.

[berneyarms]

While I am an Enterprise user, I also use DART and commuter services, the latter two more frequently than the Enterprise. Indeed a lot of my use of the Enterprise is to avoid the depressingly slow commuter trains which like the Enterprise have been subjected to significant cumulative journey time increases over successive timetable iterations.

At almost any time of the day, I can drive from my house to the city centre in about the same time as the Enterprise would currently take. In the morning I can leave home, by car, 15 to 20 minutes behind a commuter service and arrive in Sydney Parade at least 10 minutes before it shows up. So even point to point journey times are uncompetitive, let alone those that involve a change of train or change of mode. Add to that the significant delays that occur to morning or evening services multiple times a week and you have an offering which is of diminishing appeal especially to longer distance commuters. If you drive up the M1 at almost any time of the day it is buzzing and clearly the railway has lost very significant market share not just to motorists but also to express bus operators.

As for the proposed timetable, it is a credit to the architect in that a considerable effort has been made to produce something that might just be operationally deliverable. The poor signalling and track layout at Malahide, contention at Howth Junction, the lack of an up loop at Clongriffin and even tighter working between Bray and Greystones may well conspire to produce a significantly poorer operating performance than at present. There may well be six DARTs an hour but they will probably turn up in bunches. Alternatively Greystones passengers may find there train held in Bray to take up the path of the following service.

You suggest that this new timetable is effectively an attempt to reverse the long term decline in DART usage. It may do that to some modest degree although I suspect that any gains will be offset by a decline in the usage of other services which, with a few exceptions, have been significantly downgraded.

The issue brought into stark focus by this proposed timetable essentially boils down to whether it makes more sense to impose a journey time penalty of anything up to 20 minutes for passengers travelling to/from stations north of Malahide to facilitate a disproportionate number of comparatively lightly used off peak DARTs. North of Connolly DART accounts for something close to 55% of passengers during the course of a normal working day but already gobbles up 66% of the operating slots. Under this proposal at least 75% of northern line slots will be taken by DART.

The hopelessly uncompetitive journey times to stations south of Greystones means that this line will struggle to maintain even marginal relevance in the medium to long term. The minimal usage figures for stations like Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey and Enniscorthy set out in the 2014 NTA census are stark and depressing . The near empty car parks tell the same story. The same fate would now appear to await the northern line as Irish Rail seeks to implement tram style services on an inflexible and inadequate infrastructure.

And yes there will always be people who don't like a particular change to the timetable, but it is very rare to so significantly degrade one class of user in favour of another unless you are a commercial operator seeking to maximise revenue - this timetable most assuredly won't do that as the higher fare paying passengers are those most likely to walk given that the average DART journey is no more than 9 km !

I find it difficult to believe that, unless you use the port tunnel, that you could get from either Drogheda or Dundalk (I'm assuming that it is one of those two stations) to Dublin City Centre in the same time at peak periods as the Enterprise?

But we have to face a reality here with the lines out of Connolly. Unless major infrastructural works are done on the Northern line, in other words four tracking for at least some of the line out of Connolly, and an "up" loop at Clongriffin, sharing track space between a high frequency commuter train and other suburban and Intercity services is going to need compromises.

The railway is competing against a high grade motorway, and once that was built, competition from express buses (be they Bus Eireann or private) was inevitable. I personally think people need to stop lobbying for the railway to be put back onto a level playing pitch, and for those infrastructure works that I mentioned above to happen so that the Northern line can become a truly competitive alternative to the motorway.

However, I still firmly believe that the 10 minute DART service is something that is needed and should go ahead. It will make a difference to user numbers, (and I think it will be more than modest) as it will truly be a turn up and go service, and will finally deliver a consistent service to Howth and Malahide which as we have seen here has not been the case heretofore.

I also think you are being very selective in your choice of timing differences on the Northern line. It's very easy to pick extremes, which are in fact very small in number and which mainly aren't at busy times.

Here are the statistics:

Northern line suburban services - northbound from Connolly:
Out of 25 northern line suburban services, 6 are faster by 1-5 minutes, 7 take exactly the same amount of time, 9 are 1-5 minutes slower, and 3 are 10-12 minutes slower from Connolly.

Northern line suburban services - southbound from Connolly:
Out of 28 northern line suburban services (I'm including the current morning relief service from Dundalk), 11 are faster by 1-4 minutes, 2 are the same, 9 are slower by 1-5 minutes, four by 6-7 minutes, and 1 slower by 11 minutes.

Belfast line northbound:
Out of 8 trains, 3 take the same time as before, 4 are 2-6 minutes slower, and one is 10 minutes slower.

Belfast line southbound:
Out of 8 trains, 5 are 2-6 minutes slower, and the other three are 12, 15 and 18 minutes slower (the latter being the last train southbound which has the lowest usage of the lot, so maybe not the best one to be quoting).

While I agree that having any trains taking longer is not good, it is far from being the absolute disaster you are making it out to be.

You're quite right to say that the timetable designer has gone to significant efforts to make this as effective as possible operationally, and I would hope with the slightly extended running times on DART that this will contribute to the timetable being more robust in practice.

With regard to the Rosslare line I think that people need to be realistic in their expectations. The line was never built as a high speed line, and the development of the M11 motorway has meant that inevitably the railway was going to suffer from a journey time perspective. It just cannot compete on time any more.

The introduction of the half-hourly DART to/from Greystones, something that locals campaigned for, means that the Rosslare trains have only two windows each hour to go around Bray Head, and the 10 minute DART service will inevitably lengthen times. The two paths each hour around Bray Head really are the main limiting factors as they dictate when trains reach crossing loops south of Bray and this can also mean longer waits at those points.

I don't really see what options there are for improving journey times on that route given the constraints of the 10 minute DART and half-hourly DART service to/from Greystones. DART is the main business on the route out of Pearse, and I'm afraid that the Rosslare line will inevitably have to play second fiddle to it, as there simply isn't any space along the route for trains to overtake one another. Again I'm afraid I think that the gains from the increased DART service will far outweigh the losses from the Rosslare services.

The only realistic options I can see for developing the line would be additional trains south of Greystones. The lack of paths around Bray Head just makes scheduling the route really difficult.

At the moment, with funding at a premium and company finances in a precarious state, I suspect any new services at the moment will be where there is a more definite chance of developing significant business.

[Inniskeen]

Berneyarms - what is the compromise ? The timetable is shaped entirely around the requirements of a ten minute interval DART which despite the clever crafting of the timetable will probably prove impractical to deliver. A simple double track railway can support a frequent service of fast trains, a frequent service of slow trains or a modest frequency of fast and slow trains. I can see no overwhelming case for a high frequency DART service delivered at the cost of a further incremental degrading of Intercity and longer distance commuter services.

On the northern line DART carries less than 60% of passengers proceeding beyond East Wall Junction yet under this timetable will account for close to 80% of train movements. This percentage of traffic attributable to DART drops off rapidly so that by Raheny the proportion carried by DART is less than that on other services. The obvious pattern of service would appear to be a Belfast express followed immediately by an express suburban service to Malahide and beyond followed by a DART. This pattern could be repeated every 15 minutes with or without the Belfast and or fast commuter service.

The main issue with DART is the gratuitous over crowding of peak trains despite lines of idle rolling stock in Fairview. While there is an increase in frequency of southside peak services, the number of peak DART services on the northern line is unchanged although they are a bit better balanced.

[berneyarms]

Berneyarms - what is the compromise ? The timetable is shaped entirely around the requirements of a ten minute interval DART which despite the clever crafting of the timetable will probably prove impractical to deliver. A simple double track railway can support a frequent service of fast trains, a frequent service of slow trains or a modest frequency of fast and slow trains. I can see no overwhelming case for a high frequency DART service delivered at the cost of a further incremental degrading of Intercity and longer distance commuter services.

On the northern line DART carries less than 60% of passengers proceeding beyond East Wall Junction yet under this timetable will account for close to 80% of train movements. This percentage of traffic attributable to DART drops off rapidly so that by Raheny the proportion carried by DART is less than that on other services. The obvious pattern of service would appear to be a Belfast express followed immediately by an express suburban service to Malahide and beyond followed by a DART. This pattern could be repeated every 15 minutes with or without the Belfast and or fast commuter service.

The main issue with DART is the gratuitous over crowding of peak trains despite lines of idle rolling stock in Fairview. While there is an increase in frequency of southside peak services, the number of peak DART services on the northern line is unchanged although they are a bit better balanced.

Clearly the NTA feel that is how the railway to be developed - based around a high frequency DART service.

Surely the extra running time with the DART will help make the timetable more robust?

As I pointed out above - a significant number of northern line services aren't affected from a journey time perspective (and some are faster), which you conveniently seem to ignore in any of your posts, merely fixating on the last train from Belfast which really is not representative.

[Traincustomer]

With regard to the Rosslare line I think that people need to be realistic in their expectations.

While acknowledging the various constraints I think that IÉ & the NTA need to be more innovative and positive with regard to this line rather than an overwhelming focus on what cannot be done.

The compromise/trade off for the enhanced DART frequency is already significant and at least one measure to counteract this such as reduced car parking fees at certain stations (as one poster suggested in recent days) ought to be considered. There are links between certain pairs of towns which the line provides which are not available by other public transport (or are slow & not particularly user-friendly) and that is one area for modest development.

For the Rosslare line this proposed timetable is 95-99% “take” and negligible “give” (the only aspect of the proposed timetable that is likely to be well-received by the majority is that it is intended to defer the last train from the city to the slightly later time of 19.00).

[James Howard]

I agree that a significant improvement to Malahide capacity is really necessary but the problem with this timetable is that it takes a lot from everyone else in order to deliver a very minor improvement in overall point-to-point journey times involving DART. The impact on the trains serving the 9 - 5:30 worker on the Longford commuter service is 21 minutes a day. The benefit to the DART commuter is 4 or 5 minutes a day at best and less for the person who is organised enough to know the timetable. Indeed if you consider that the average wait time is reduced by 2.5 minutes and the average running time is increased by 3, the point-to-point time is actually worse statistically.

The Maynooth line timetable really needs a far more radical recast. It would massively speed things up going towards Maynooth if every train stopped at Broombridge allowing transfers between Docklands and Connolly trains. Then the Dunboyne trains could serve stations between Broombridge and Clonsilla allowing 5 to 10 minutes to be cut off the Maynooth run. Maybe this wouldn't work for every station and every train and perhaps it would be best to leave this until after Luas BXD opens which would then give people the option of a simple connection to the south city centre and points further.

Does anybody know precisely why it now takes 9 minutes longer to get from Pearse to Bray than it did in 1985? Is there some form of continental drift involved? Every timetable, Irish Rail seem to add a minute or three onto journey times to improve reliability and robustness yet nothing ever changes. The Sligo line timetable is so robust that trains spend 10 minutes waiting at crossing points.

[Inniskeen]

Clearly the NTA feel that is how the railway to be developed - based around a high frequency DART service.

Surely the extra running time with the DART will help make the timetable more robust?

As I pointed out above - a significant number of northern line services aren't affected from a journey time perspective (and some are faster), which you conveniently seem to ignore in any of your posts, merely fixating on the last train from Belfast which really is not representative.

The policy of addressing poor operational performance with more and more timetable padding is certainly an approach that has been used time and again without any great measure of success. In fact DART journey times have been extended by about 25% since the service was introduced and is now 1hr-15min from Howth to Bray compared with an hour or slightly less in the 1980s (and yes I know there are two extra stations). This approach gobbles up track, station platforms, rolling stock and personnel, reduces capacity, creates congestion and does little or nothing to the make the service more attractive.

In what way am I fixated on the last train from Belfast ? I do certainly think it is pathetic that the two principal morning business trains from Belfast will have their schedules extended by 12 minutes and 15 minutes respectively when it is patently obvious that reduced journey times are critical if the service is to have any long term future. The 0615 from Belfast takes an utterly extraordinary 47 minutes non-stop from Drogheda, probably the slowest advertised regular "express" schedule on this section of the line since the 2nd world war. Frankly this is a farcical. The DART underground schedule will no doubt see this schedule extended to about an hour.

Also noticeable is that the token Irish Rail morning commuter service from Newry has been removed from the schedule - admittedly this is replaced by the 0615 from Belfast but unlike Dundalk, Newry doesn't get a new "express" service to replace the 0650 from Belfast.

As for passengers travelling beyond Greystones (not surprisingly a rapidly declining number) - they will experience journey time increases of between 6 and 18 minutes one way. Will this line still be open in 5 or 10 years time ?

On the Sligo line the service has been re-organised in such a way as to reduce the number of afternoon and evening trains from Dublin by a quarter. There are some accelerations, although as elsewhere there are significant journey time extensions including one of 18 minutes and another of 26 minutes.

[Dublin13]

I agree that a significant improvement to Malahide capacity is really necessary but the problem with this timetable is that it takes a lot from everyone else in order to deliver a very minor improvement in overall point-to-point journey times involving DART. The impact on the trains serving the 9 - 5:30 worker on the Longford commuter service is 21 minutes a day. The benefit to the DART commuter is 4 or 5 minutes a day at best and less for the person who is organised enough to know the timetable. Indeed if you consider that the average wait time is reduced by 2.5 minutes and the average running time is increased by 3, the point-to-point time is actually worse statistically.

That may be true of passengers on the Howth branch, but it is not true for Passengers on the Malahide branch during evening peak where there are just two DART trains between 5.30 and 7.00pm to Malahide with there being five Howth's between 5.32 and 6.31.

The downside of the journey time being increased by a minute here or there is by far outweighed of the upside of a regular timetable without huge gaps like the current one has.

[berneyarms]

The Sligo line timetable is so robust that trains spend 10 minutes waiting at crossing points.

That's down quite simply to, the changes in line speed over the years, the fact that each train has to pass two en route and where the loops are physically located - it's nothing more than that.

That's a problem with an intensive service on a single track route.

[Inniskeen]

The Malahide issue (and I think it not actually Malahide you are talking about) could be addressed without the largely negative affect on so many other users.

[berneyarms]

The policy of addressing poor operational performance with more and more timetable padding is certainly an approach that has been used time and again without any great measure of success. In fact DART journey times have been extended by about 25% since the service was introduced and is now 1hr-15min from Howth to Bray compared with an hour or slightly less in the 1980s (and yes I know there are two extra stations). This approach gobbles up track, station platforms, rolling stock and personnel, reduces capacity, creates congestion and does little or nothing to the make the service more attractive.

In what way am I fixated on the last train from Belfast ? I do certainly think it is pathetic that the two principal morning business trains from Belfast will have their schedules extended by 12 minutes and 15 minutes respectively when it is patently obvious that reduced journey times are critical if the service is to have any long term future. The 0615 from Belfast takes an utterly extraordinary 47 minutes non-stop from Drogheda, probably the slowest advertised regular "express" schedule on this section of the line since the 2nd world war. Frankly this is a farcical. The DART underground schedule will no doubt see this schedule extended to about an hour.

Also noticeable is that the token Irish Rail morning commuter service from Newry has been removed from the schedule - admittedly this is replaced by the 0615 from Belfast but unlike Dundalk, Newry doesn't get a new "express" service to replace the 0650 from Belfast.

As for passengers travelling beyond Greystones (not surprisingly a rapidly declining number) - they will experience journey time increases of between 6 and 18 minutes one way. Will this line still be open in 5 or 10 years time ?

On the Sligo line the service has been re-organised in such a way as to reduce the number of afternoon and evening trains from Dublin by a quarter. There are some accelerations, although as elsewhere there are significant journey time extensions including one of 18 minutes and another of 26 minutes.

Well I think mentioning that trains are delayed by up to 20 minutes is kind of being selective as there is only one, and it has the lightest load of the lot! My point is that based on the analysis I provided, the vast majority of trains on the Belfast line have six minutes or less added - we can all pull out a headline of 20 minutes, but that's not representative of the majority.

I think you have to accept that the 10 minute DART service aspect of this consultation is more than likely going to happen. The Minister and the NTA have publically associated themselves with it, which from a political perspective tells me that it's likely to happen. Consequently I would be trying to find positive ways of dealing with how the other services can work around that and trying to minimise the impact.

I also think that the need for four tracking has to be drilled into politician's heads during the forthcoming election campaign as a priority.

I do share your frustration on the Rosslare line, but let's be realistic - the people in Greystones demanded a 30 minute DART - that alone has put severe constraints on what the Rosslare line can deliver. Extending the 10 minute DART means further constraints, but the M11 has delivered a much faster route that the railway at the best of times would find it hard to compete with.

Should potentially greater numbers of DART users be put on ice for a much lower number of travellers to/from Rosslare?

I suspect that the proposed Rosslare line timetable (certainly in the evening) could be improved upon by changing some of the times, and potentially reducing the impact of the 10 minute DARTs - there are some long waits at passing points that could be altered I believe.

Ultimately I am not sure what the best solution is for the line - off peak connections with DART at Bray or Greystones?

On the Sligo line I fully agree with you. There are some strange scheduling decisions on that I think need to be altered, particularly some of the adjusted trains during the afternoon, and some of the decelerations which to my eye can certainly be avoided.

[Dublin13]

The Malahide issue (and I think it not actually Malahide you are talking about) could be addressed without the largely negative affect on so many other users.

If you're talking to me, I was referring to the Malahide branch, not Malahide station itself.

[Inniskeen]

If you're talking to me, I was referring to the Malahide branch, not Malahide station itself. Hi, yes that's what I understood from your previous posts !

[Inniskeen]

Well I think mentioning that trains are delayed by up to 20 minutes is kind of being selective as there is only one, and it has the lightest load of the lot! My point is that based on the analysis I provided, the vast majority of trains on the Belfast line have six minutes or less added - we can all pull out a headline of 20 minutes, but that's not representative of the majority.

I think you have to accept that the 10 minute DART service aspect of this consultation is more than likely going to happen. The Minister and the NTA have publically associated themselves with it, which from a political perspective tells me that it's likely to happen. Consequently I would be trying to find positive ways of dealing with how the other services can work around that and trying to minimise the impact.

I also think that the need for four tracking has to be drilled into politician's heads during the forthcoming election campaign as a priority.

I do share your frustration on the Rosslare line, but let's be realistic - the people in Greystones demanded a 30 minute DART - that alone has put severe constraints on what the Rosslare line can deliver. Extending the 10 minute DART means further constraints, but the M11 has delivered a much faster route that the railway at the best of times would find it hard to compete with.

Should potentially greater numbers of DART users be put on ice for a much lower number of travellers to/from Rosslare?

I suspect that the proposed Rosslare line timetable (certainly in the evening) could be improved upon by changing some of the times, and potentially reducing the impact of the 10 minute DARTs - there are some long waits at passing points that could be altered I believe.

Ultimately I am not sure what the best solution is for the line - off peak connections with DART at Bray or Greystones?

On the Sligo line I fully agree with you. There are some strange scheduling decisions on that I think need to be altered, particularly some of the adjusted trains during the afternoon, and some of the decelerations which to my eye can certainly be avoided.

So if the people of Greystones demand a half hourly service the people of Greystones get a half hourly service. The obvious way to serve Greystones is an hourly DART and an hourly Wexford service. And yes there is sufficient traffic south of Greystones if the service delivers a realistic journey time and frequency. This would also benefit Greystones as they would have an express service every hour which could run semi-fast leaving Bray just ahead of a DART. (15 minute interval DART from Bray).

Yes I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through irrespective of the impact on non DART patrons.

You make the argument that DART should take precedence over the Rosslare services because more people use the half hourly DART to Greystones. If you extend this argument, more people use Dublin Bus than LUAS, more people use LUAS than DART, more people use Bus Eireann than mainline rail and more people use roads than public transport - so why bother with public transport at all as only a small minority of people use it anyway.

Mind you if you go on revenue a Dundalk or Drogheda passenger is a more valuable commodity than a DART passenger. I think the average DART journey is something around 9 km so on a passenger-kilometer measure DART is a considerably less significant creature than a longer distance commuter train or mainline service.

Still it looks as if neither the NTA or Irish Rail have any real interest in longer distance Connolly commuters or main line rail travellers and I imagine that many of those currently using rail will have shifted to other modes by this time next year. Still the success story will be that DART capacity has been increased by so many percent even if the growth in passengers doesn't match the growth in service or much exceed numbers lost elsewhere.

[berneyarms]

So if the people of Greystones demand a half hourly service the people of Greystones get a half hourly service. The obvious way to serve Greystones is an hourly DART and an hourly Wexford service. And yes there is sufficient traffic south of Greystones if the service delivers a realistic journey time and frequency. This would also benefit Greystones as they would have an express service every hour which could run semi-fast leaving Bray just ahead of a DART. (15 minute interval DART from Bray).

Yes I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through irrespective of the impact on non DART patrons.

You make the argument that DART should take precedence over the Rosslare services because more people use the half hourly DART to Greystones. If you extend this argument, more people use Dublin Bus than LUAS, more people use LUAS than DART, more people use Bus Eireann than mainline rail and more people use roads than public transport - so why bother with public transport at all as only a small minority of people use it anyway.

Mind you if you go on revenue a Dundalk or Drogheda passenger is a more valuable commodity than a DART passenger. I think the average DART journey is something around 9 km so on a passenger-kilometer measure DART is a considerably less significant creature than a longer distance commuter train or mainline service.

Still it looks as if neither the NTA or Irish Rail have any real interest in longer distance Connolly commuters or main line rail travellers and I imagine that many of those currently using rail will have shifted to other modes by this time next year. Still the success story will be that DART capacity has been increased by so many percent even if the growth in passengers doesn't match the growth in service or much exceed numbers lost elsewhere.

Clearly the people in Greystones got political about it and demanded the level of service that they now have.

Realistically an hourly Wexford service isn't on the cards anytime soon and as I pointed about above the 10 minute DART aspect of this timetable is in my view going to happen, given that the NTA and the Minister have both associated themselves with it. Consequently, I think that looking at options under other DART frequencies isn't really realistic - the question really is what could be done alongside the 10 minute DART, and what infrastructural changes could help improve the longer distance services.

I make no apologies for stating that I do support the 10 minute DART service, as I think it will attract people back to the railway, but at the same time I think that the time is right to start actively lobbying for infrastructural changes to improve the lot of longer distance commuters.

[Inniskeen]

Just talking to a few people this morning on the train and they were of the view that the bus now looks the better option and their reason is that an already unattractively slow service is now even slower. Add to that a seat and lower fares and it is obvious that the railway will lose further market share and despite the growth in economic activity may suffer a decline in usage as well.

I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through although I imagine that politicians outside the DART area will be getting an ear-full over the coming weeks.

The average speed of most services to/from Malahide in the proposed new timetable will be between 20 and 25 mph. The highly restrictive infrastructure makes this hard to to avoid at the height of the morning and evening peak. Imposing this level of journey time penalty throughout the day is gratuitous and unjustified and probably dis-benefits the majority of passengers.

Tram like speeds may be appropriate and satisfactory for very short trips but have no place on an effective longer distance and commuter railway.

[Jamie2k9]

Those tram like speeds are actually slower than the Luas in city centre, quiet incredible when you analyse what is proposed.

Of course it will be implemented, no questions asked. Would be suprised if they bother reading half the submissions. Things such as retuning the last Northen Commuter to 23.30 etc will be the real test of commitment towards passengers.

[berneyarms]

Just talking to a few people this morning on the train and they were of the view that the bus now looks the better option and their reason is that an already unattractively slow service is now even slower. Add to that a seat and lower fares and it is obvious that the railway will lose further market share and despite the growth in economic activity may suffer a decline in usage as well.

I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through although I imagine that politicians outside the DART area will be getting an ear-full over the coming weeks.

The average speed of most services to/from Malahide in the proposed new timetable will be between 20 and 25 mph. The highly restrictive infrastructure makes this hard to to avoid at the height of the morning and evening peak. Imposing this level of journey time penalty throughout the day is gratuitous and unjustified and probably dis-benefits the majority of passengers.

Tram like speeds may be appropriate and satisfactory for very short trips but have no place on an effective longer distance and commuter railway.

The only problem with that is that looking at the current 8 morning peak inbound northern line services that arrive in Connolly before 9am, of their matching services in the new timetable three are actually unchanged, two will be faster and and only three are taking longer.

Similarly looking at the eight commuter services currently leaving Connolly between 16:20 and 18:40, of the corresponding services in the new timetable two will be faster, one will be the same, three will take a minute longer and only two will be 2-5 minutes longer.

[berneyarms]

Those tram like speeds are actually slower than the Luas in city centre, quiet incredible when you analyse what is proposed.

Of course it will be implemented, no questions asked. Would be suprised if they bother reading half the submissions. Things such as retuning the last Northen Commuter to 23.30 etc will be the real test of commitment towards passengers.

I think that's a bit unfair - there have been changes after previous consultations.

And while I have said that I expect the 10 minute DART service to be implemented, that's not to say that other services could yet change around that to facilitate passengers.

[Inniskeen]

The only problem with that is that looking at the current 8 morning peak inbound northern line services that arrive in Connolly before 9am, of their matching services in the new timetable three are actually unchanged, two will be faster and and only three are taking longer.

Similarly looking at the eight commuter services currently leaving Connolly between 16:20 and 18:40, of the corresponding services in the new timetable two will be faster, one will be the same, three will take a minute longer and only two will be 2-5 minutes longer.

The existing journey times for northern line commuter services are already uninspiring having been incrementally increased in nearly every recent timetable iteration.

Of the 36 southbound trains originating at stations north of Malahide on Mondays to Fridays, incidentally exactly the same number as in the existing timetable, 13 have an unchanged or reduced journey time while 23 have an increased journey time. The greatest reduction in journey time is 4 minutes. The increases in journey times are 18, 15, 12, 7, then several of six minutes, several of 5 minutes and so on down to 1 minute. In terms of congestion penalty the worst affected trains are the 0615 from Belfast, 0755 from Dundalk, 1400 ex Dundalk and 1444 from Drogheda, all of which are 15 to 20 minutes slower than they might otherwise be.

Average speed from Malahide to Connolly in several instances is no more than 20 mph including the so called "new" express from Dundalk.

In fact the whole railway from Malahide and Howth to Greystones delivers very few services averaging more than 20 mph. The average speed of a Malahide to Greystones DART in the new timetable is 19.88 mph - less than the average speed of a LUAS between Charlemont and Sandyford !

As I have said before I don't believe this proposed timetable is operationally viable, is economically sensible or will deliver significantly more passengers to the railway. The exercise is misguided and disregards the legitimate expectations of other users and the limitations of the infrastructure. It will probably go ahead but how long it survives remains to be seen especially if it makes services even less reliable than at present.

[KSW]

The people along the Rosslare line it's about high time they had a decent service like every service on the network has probably a train every two hours. This line has really gone to the dogs.its getting worse and worse as the years go by. I don't know who is in management in IE but get into the times we do not want a steam like service taking 2 hrs just to reach Gorey even saying that times back then were quicker. Especially on Sunday's trains I remember took 1hr28min nowadays it's gone beyond a fare and time joke. As a train lover but I will not pay nearly €10 extra just from the city to Gorey for an extra 30 minute time journey with less train IE provide. Get into the times and fight back all your lost customers

[Inniskeen]

As far as I can see Irish Rail have little or no interest in this route and indeed some in the company would close the line if they thought they would get away with it. They will happily degrade the service and then start whining that it would be cheaper to pay for taxies for the remaining few passengers who refuse to go away. Step 1 to make the service effectively irrelevant is well in train !

The NTA appear to be on board with the "nothing can be done" strategy and parrot the same bull that suggests that the issue is the single track and the slow route south of Greystones rather than the half hourly service between Bray and Greystones and the pedestrian DART operation north of Bray.

[Thomas J Stamp]

what are the current DART lengths? Are they bigger fir runsh hours? Any additional cars being proposed in the new timetable?

[Inniskeen]

I imagine that DART train sets will be smaller in the new timetable given that at least four more sets will be required to operate it. This will have some interesting consequences. I would guess that most if not all peak northbound trains from Bray & Greystones will be four car formations !

[Dublin13]

what are the current DART lengths? Are they bigger fir runsh hours? Any additional cars being proposed in the new timetable?

Most of the Northbound trains in the second half of evening peak are four carriages with the southbound being 6-8

Ex:
The 17:58 and 18:42 from Clontarf to Malahide are four cars, even though they are the only Malahide Darts between 17:30 and 19:00. People can be unable to board them and they are still like sardines after Howth Junction.

Between 17:32 and 18:31 there are five Howth Darts which are between 4-6 cars which generally have a good amount of room and barely have enough passengers to fill one carriage after Howth Junction.

The new timetable should fix that capacity and frequency imbalance.

[Thomas J Stamp]

i wonder if some best laid plans have gone astray somewhere. wasnt there a tender put out for rolling stock for the DART underground? maybe that is still going ahead in part and there may be more realistic stocking levels. would people prefer shorter more frequent trains or 8 car sets slightly less frequently?

[James Howard]

Surely with the new timetable having longer running times, all else being equal there will be less seats overall with the same amount of stock in service. It would obviously be better to have 6 4-car trains over an hour rather than 4 6-car trains.

But there must be spare DART cars around given that they reduced the capacity a couple of years ago without changing the timetable. Or have Irish Rail done the usual and left them to rot?

[Thomas J Stamp]

this is my point (and I have to admit I'm not really up to speed on the DART as I barely ever use it) - the platforms were all extended to accommodate 8 car sets operating at a fairly decent frequency. When they reduced this to 4 cars only about 2 or three years back they didn't increase the frequency by 2 (nor are they now..... from 00,15,30,45 to 00,10,20,30,40,50 ) so there ought to be stock floating around. I often hear people talking about how much is lying about in Clontarf and I often see DARTs in inchicore on my way into dublin.

[berneyarms]

Surely with the new timetable having longer running times, all else being equal there will be less seats overall with the same amount of stock in service. It would obviously be better to have 6 4-car trains over an hour rather than 4 6-car trains.

But there must be spare DART cars around given that they reduced the capacity a couple of years ago without changing the timetable. Or have Irish Rail done the usual and left them to rot?

Not all of the DART sets are in service every day - they rotate them around (with the exception of the Alsthom sets which are out of service).

This proposal will see more sets in use every day as the NTA are providing funding to allow for this.

[Mark Gleeson]

Even allowing a generous spare allocation of 18 coaches and allowing for the 10 Alstom units you can have an entire 6 coach operation, but since you can't currently couple a LHB 2 car to a Japanese set you can't get the maximum capacity option.

Best case assuming everything couples to everything
4 8 coach
15 6 coach
1 4 coach (this is the morning Dun Laoghaire extra with a DART 5 minutes either side)

If you cut the journey time by 5 minutes end to end you need 1 fewer set and works for the current fleet with no engineering required
7 8 coach
11 6 coach
1 4 coach (this is the morning Dun Laoghaire extra with a DART 5 minutes either side)

What you will actually get is
6 8 coach
11 6 coach (only LHB units can run in 6 car formation)
3 4 coach (this is the morning Dun Laoghaire extra with a DART 5 minutes either side)

[Dublin13]

So it looks like there has been a purposeful change in allocation on the Malahide branch, third day in a row now that this has happened so I doubt it is down to the fact of unit availability.

The laughable thing is they've strengthened trains that don't need to have extra carriages on them and left the ones that are fully packed alone. To top it all off they've cut an early morning peak train by two carriages as well.

The 7.07 from Clongriffin is now operating on a six car 8100 set instead of an 8 car 86xx set which is now completely like sardines.

The next 3 Malahide trains from Clontarf from 17:30 to 19:30 onwards now look like this:
17:58 ex Clontarf remains 4 cars and is still in danger of leaving people behind
18:46 ex Clontarf remains 4 cars and is still in danger of leaving people behind
19:12 ex Clontarf has been strengthened from 6 carriages to 8 at six cars it was easy to board even if busy.

Clearly the two extra carriages have been thrown at the 19:12 ex Clontarf because of the loadings on the service early in peak that the same train works to the Southside stations, the fact that said trains are already having more space than the Northbound evening peak services seems not to matter.

May as well just call it Southside Rail because that is all they seem to be bothered about, poor souls on the Southside with a train every 10-15 minutes must not have a train where there are no seats whilst us on the Malahide branch can't even be sure to be able to board our TWO trains between 5:30 and 7.00pm

[Inniskeen]

Surely with the new timetable having longer running times, all else being equal there will be less seats overall with the same amount of stock in service. It would obviously be better to have 6 4-car trains over an hour rather than 4 6-car trains.



But something like €170m was spent extending platforms to accommodate 8-car DARTs on the basis that the only practical way to increase capacity was to increase train size. Now it has been decided that that strategy was wrong and a frequent service of smaller slower DARTs on a deficient infrastructure is going to do the business. The impact on other services is deemed to be irrelevant. The proposed timetable is a bit like having a motorway with one carriageway per direction and insisting that all traffic must follow an ass and cart.

[Jamie2k9]

On board consultation of Belfast/Dublin schedule to take place next Monday-Thursday.

Been slightly political up in Belfast but very little noise made down here.

New timetable average speed of 47mp/h for 2h15m.

[Padna]

New timetable average speed of 47mp/h for 2h15m.

Looks like that average speed has been calculated based on the distance by road between the two cities. Using the distance by rail, the actual average speed is around 50 mph. Still way too slow though!

[Mark Gleeson]

Translink insisting on Lisburn stops isn't helping

[Inniskeen]

Presumeably the choice is either stop everything or nothing at Lisburn, insert some more padding for trains that don't stop at Lisburn or do not go clockface. Alternatively abandon the vain and unnecessary 10 min off peak DART service.

As it happens I was in Portadown yesterday and NIR were supplementing their regular hourly service to Belfast with express services. From Belfast in the evening between 1600 and1930 there were 9 services to Portadown. From Dublin, yesterday, there were just 4 services to Drogheda during the same period. Five of the Portadown services were expresses compared to two of the Drogheda services. On. Saturdays, from Pirtadown, there is a half hourly service and in addition to the Dublin service there are no less than 16 expresses in either direction. In Drogheda, apart from the Belfast trains, there are no fast services. Still I am sure Irish Rail have it right, stuff the place with slow moving DARTs and have everybody travel at 20 mph - the obvious way to grow business and revenue ?

[Dublin13]

The drivers don't particularly want the new DART timetable either
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/train-drivers-back-deal-to-resolve-row-over-past-productivity-1.2465984

[Mark Gleeson]

They are never happy and never will be.

Its always fun to ask a Union busy body do they know what the big space in the equipment rack in the cab is for.

Can't wait until someone finally has the balls in Irish Rail to tender for the automatic driving equipment, let see what the unions think then

[Dublin13]

They only ever talk about benchmarking when it's in their favour as well, that is what always amused me and the only reason they are calling for it is for this reason. They will want all the things that they feel they don't have the best of benchmarks, but without benchmarking anything that is better.

If there was to be overall benchmarking over the whole CIE group, those in the other two companies in the group would be very unhappy and say how unfair it is and how it will negatively impact their terms and condition and ability to earn a living and an appropriate standard of life.

It's all smoke and mirrors as usual, anyone who is paid less than them in the same industry is underpaid, anyone who is paid a higher rate in the same industry has the correct pay and anyone who is not in an operational customer facing role is vastly overpaid.

No doubt if any mention of tendering services is mentioned drivers will plough the usual line about the service needing to stay public else greedy fat cat shareholders will attempt to try and profit from it at the expense of the service and public services should be run for the benefit of the public and not private interest, whilst the very same people continue to put their own private interests ahead of the same public. Talk about ironic.

The fact that the first thing that happens when a big increase in DART frequency is proposed is the staff basically say it's not going to happen unless they get their own way speaks volumes about who the company is truly run for.

No doubt that old chestnut "Safety" will be brought up in the discussions in some way if they need to drum up a bit of support.

[Jamie2k9]

Perhaps the new drivers haven't applied to be NBRU members and that's his real problem :rolleyes:

[berneyarms]

The drivers don't particularly want the new DART timetable either
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/train-drivers-back-deal-to-resolve-row-over-past-productivity-1.2465984

I never take much notice about what any union says in public as that is just posturing. It's all just optics.

The real position and negotiations take place behind closed doors.

[Inniskeen]

There are a lot of optics around the proposed timetable !

[Thomas J Stamp]

But something like €170m was spent extending platforms to accommodate 8-car DARTs on the basis that the only practical way to increase capacity was to increase train size. Now it has been decided that that strategy was wrong and a frequent service of smaller slower DARTs on a deficient infrastructure is going to do the business. The impact on other services is deemed to be irrelevant. The proposed timetable is a bit like having a motorway with one carriageway per direction and insisting that all traffic must follow an ass and cart.

well not really. they havent decided that it was wrong (they'll point out the DMU's using them for example) they'll say that they have been prevented from using them properly through cutbacks, delays to the great cross river re signalling project, cancelling DART underground et all...

but even so it seems from what we are seeing here is that its not exactly the number of units they have, but how they are being allocated.

[Dublin13]

Unable to board the 5.54pm 4 car DART to Malahide from Connolly due to severe over-crowding once more. Happy I left work early to do some shopping and wasn't waiting at Clontarf, at least I could get the commuter to Dundalk from Connolly.

There was approx 50 people at Connolly who tried to board who were not able to with various sighs and comments about four cars at peak times being unacceptable and that yet again they were unable to board.

Of course, a few minutes before a six car Howth came with many seats free and a 4 car Howth with a few seats free came a few minutes afterwards, really shows the joke that it is having 2 Malahide DARTS in 90 minutes whilst having 5 Howths in just 60 minutes!

[Inniskeen]

Am I mistaken in thinking that there are actually two four car DARTs one after the other northbound from Connolly, at 1747 and 1754, the first relatively lightly loaded and the second heavily overcrowded. Assumming that "all carriages are in use" at this time, would it not make sense to combine the two trains into an 8 car set and run this to Malahide. This would reduce overcrowding a little as well as reducing congestion.

[Dublin13]

Am I mistaken in thinking that there are actually two four car DARTs one after the other northbound from Connolly, at 1747 and 1754, the first relatively lightly loaded and the second heavily overcrowded. Assumming that "all carriages are in use" at this time, would it not make sense to combine the two trains into an 8 car set and run this to Malahide. This would reduce overcrowding a little as well as reducing congestion.

It's a little more crazy than that, this is the way it normally is

17:24 Malahide (6 cars)
17:28 Howth (6 cars)
17:39 Howth (4 cars)
17:47 Howth (6 cars)
17:54 Malahide (4 cars)
18:08 Howth (4 cars)
18:27 Howth (6 cars)
18:42 Malahide (4 cars)
18:53 Howth (6 cars)
19:08 Malahide (8 cars)

The laughable thing is after the 17:54 which you can't always board there is the biggest gap of peak of 48 minutes and when a train does eventually come it's 4 cars and just as overcrowded as the previous 4 car train. Then the next train has the shortest gap of the whole of peak on the branch (26 minutes) and it has the same capacity of the previous two trains combined when it's not needed.

Lets not mention the fact pretty much all of those Howth trains would struggle to fill two carriages after Howth Junction whilst after Howth Junction the Malahide DARTs are absolutely jammed, still. A couple of times I have seen people unable to board a train to Malahide at Howth Junction because it's still full. Thankfully that has not happened since the summer though.

This is why the 17:54 and 18:42 trains always are at least 5 minutes late and mostly nearer 10 and always delays the commuters behind because of the awful dwell times.

[Inniskeen]

It's a little more crazy than that, this is the way it normally is

17:24 Malahide (6 cars)
17:28 Howth (6 cars)
17:39 Howth (4 cars)
17:47 Howth (6 cars)
17:54 Malahide (4 cars)
18:08 Howth (4 cars)
18:27 Howth (6 cars)
18:42 Malahide (4 cars)
18:53 Howth (6 cars)
19:08 Malahide (8 cars)

The laughable thing is after the 17:54 which you can't always board there is the biggest gap of peak of 48 minutes and when a train does eventually come it's 4 cars and just as overcrowded as the previous 4 car train. Then the next train has the shortest gap of the whole of peak on the branch (26 minutes) and it has the same capacity of the previous two trains combined when it's not needed.

Lets not mention the fact pretty much all of those Howth trains would struggle to fill two carriages after Howth Junction whilst after Howth Junction the Malahide DARTs are absolutely jammed, still. A couple of times I have seen people unable to board a train to Malahide at Howth Junction because it's still full. Thankfully that has not happened since the summer though.

This is why the 17:54 and 18:42 trains always are at least 5 minutes late and mostly nearer 10 and always delays the commuters behind because of the awful dwell times.

But there are trains at 1802 (Dundalk, viciously overcrowded and almost always late) and 1823 (Drogheda). Both of these serve stations between Howth Junction and Malahide.

[Dublin13]

But there are trains at 1802 (Dundalk, viciously overcrowded and almost always late) and 1823 (Drogheda). Both of these serve stations between Howth Junction and Malahide.

Not much help to someone who commutes from Clontarf like myself or further up the line and can't board which is my main gripe since I can't always make the proceeding Howth train and changee at Howth Junction.

It doesn't surprise me that the commuter is overcrowded, a good few of those people would be people who tried to take the proceeding Malahide DART at Pearse or Tara Street and couldn't board which also happens.

In the last six months on the DART we are talking about I've seen people been unable to board at Pearse, Tara Street, Clontarf and Connolly all whilst Howth's continue to carry thing air.

There have also been occasions at Connolly in the summer where it has been impossible to board the 1802 commuter as well.

The 1908 is the reading herring of them all, it should have at least two cars removed, I know people will moan about the southside will lose out, but every train serves every station on the Southside apart from Greystones, unlike the north.

If people cannot board a train on a much lower frequency than a destination which has lots more trains and is carrying thin air, there is a complete mismatch between capacity and demand.

[Dublin13]

Latest from unions
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1223/755835-nbru-disruption-warning/

The Rosters are unworkable it's claimed.

[berneyarms]

Latest from unions
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1223/755835-nbru-disruption-warning/

The Rosters are unworkable it's claimed.

Again this is all posturing - the real discussions will take place behind closed doors.

It's the union leadership being seen to be "doing something".

As I've said before - I generally take what is said publically with a grain of salt.

[Eddie]

Logically it doesn't make sense to increase the dart frequency if your journey time increases by more than 2.5 minutes.

On average, with a fifteen minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 7.5 minutes.

On average, with a ten minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 5 minutes.

So you gain on average 2.5 minutes, which is lost entirely if the journey time is extended by more than this.

And that excludes any other disadvantages of increased frequency like slower commuter services, frustrated drivers at level crossing barriers that are down for longer, cost of additional drivers.

[James Howard]

In an election year, logic has very little to do with it. 10 minute DART frequency looks good on an election leaflet and neither politicians nor media are good with details like average end-to-end journey times. You also didn't mention the cost of frustrated truck drivers hitting barriers which will become at least a weekly event if the barriers spend 3 minutes of every 5 down.

At least this timetable change has prompted me to make serious efforts to serious reduce or entirely end my 4 day a week long-distance commute. After 12 years, I can't take another 20 minutes being added to my day. I'm hopeful I can say goodbye to my pass at renewal time in August.

[ACustomer]

Eddie, James Howard:

The more I think of it the more stupid is this fixation on a 10-minute DART service all day. On commuter routes just about everywhere, frequency (and capacity) is related to demand, i.e. to the morning and evening peaks mainly. LUAS is 3 to 4 minutes in the morning peak and anything from 6 to 15 minutes off-peak. That's the normal way of doing things everywhere, except apparently in the Wonderland of DART.

Even worse, a huge amount of money has been spent a few years ago enabling the operation of 8-carriage DARTs. Now the strategy seems to be for more frequent trains, very often 4 or 6 carriages. This is a straightforward waste of track capacity. James Howard refers to faster DART time making things more attractive for passengers. True, and it also enables more frequent trains. Trying to fit in very frequent trains and simultaneously timetabling slower trains is a very inefficient use of track capacity.

And having the same service interval between 8 and 9am as you have between 9 and 10pm is pure madness.

[grainne whale]

In an election year, logic has very little to do with it. 10 minute DART frequency looks good on an election leaflet and neither politicians nor media are good with details like average end-to-end journey times. You also didn't mention the cost of frustrated truck drivers hitting barriers which will become at least a weekly event if the barriers spend 3 minutes of every 5 down.

At least this timetable change has prompted me to make serious efforts to serious reduce or entirely end my 4 day a week long-distance commute. After 12 years, I can't take another 20 minutes being added to my day. I'm hopeful I can say goodbye to my pass at renewal time in August. I feel the same - I have had the Taxsaver Short Hop Rail for the last umpteen years and between journey time increasing and certain trains running late it makes sense for me now to switch to Dublin Bus Taxsaver as I can get into work quicker.

[Thomas J Stamp]

the mention of election year is apt. the first thing this gov did in connection with rail was allow Alan Kelly play trains in tipperary, now the last thing they are doign is playing trains in dublin because it looks good on an election poster.

what will happen in all,likelihood is that it will be dropped/amended after the election and the unions are being played very well into being blamed for it.

[ThomasJ]

the mention of election year is apt. the first thing this gov did in connection with rail was allow Alan Kelly play trains in tipperary, now the last thing they are doign is playing trains in dublin because it looks good on an election poster.

what will happen in all,likelihood is that it will be dropped/amended after the election and the unions are being played very well into being blamed for it.

The conspiracy theorist tells me youre right.

Interestingly, last week there was no timetable uploaded for end January onwards, now the current timetable is uoaded upto September.... Interesting .....

[Inniskeen]

Hopefully it has dawned on the relevant parties that the proposed 10 minute interval DART timetable is impractical without unacceptable disruption to InterCity and longer distance users.

Ironically there is little benefit for DART users either as the reduced turn up and go waiting times are substantially eroded by increased journey times. More congestion and smaller peak hour trains would further erode any residual benefit for DART users.

Hopefully the effort will now turn to improving services for all users and in particular to the elimination of half-sized DART trains at peak periods. Better alignment of commuter services with the existing 15 minute interval DART and upsizing some of the DART trains would be a big step forward.

Any significant changes in frequency, other than on the already speed restricted section between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock will require additional tracks and/or overtaking facilities if some degree of service quality is to be maintained.

[Dublin13]

I'd quite happily trade a few mins extra on DART journey times for the fact I can board, the 17:54 at Connolly I was unable to board again tonight to Malahide, along with about 50-60 others. Approx 80-90 people standing in each carriage. I just got the commuter afterwards though happily, but 9/10 if I get that train it's from Clontarf, and it wouldn't have been possible to get the commuter there.

Meanwhile coming into Platform 5 just before the 17:54 heading southbound was an 8 car 8100 class with no more than 15-20 people in each carriage. Really makes you sick. There was more people on one carriage of the four car train than the entire 8 car heading south.

I don't necessarily think a 10 minute dart frequency is needed from my point of view, if they balanced the spread of departures between Malahide and Howth and removed long gaps and aligned capacity properly, there's no need for a service every 10 minutes.

[Mark Gleeson]

Looks like the timetable has been deferred until April

[Jamie2k9]

Unions or NTA that stopped them, hoping for the latter but you never know.

[James Howard]

Well I'm going to have to find another way to get to work. Irish Rail can wave goodbye to their 4 grand from me once my pass expires.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have no confirmation of what the timetable actually will be post April 10 currently.

[James Shields]

@Dublin13... there are other options from Clontarf Road in the period you mention.

For example, you could catch the 18:13 Howth bound DART as far as Howth, and pick up the 18:32 Dundalk train there (8 min wait at HJ).

Or the 18:31 and 18:57 (that one has a 14 min wait at HJ, so not ideal).

However, I think the timetable could be much better designed so that Commutters don't end up chugging all the way to Malahide behind a DART (and there are several other points where a small change to the order of trains would allow Malahide branch passengers to use Howth DART and Commuter combinations, and also avoid delays for Northern line passengers.

[Jamie2k9]

Appears they have kicked the Heuston timetable down the road as well, unlikely before September, at that stage they should do the sensible thing at wait until December and implement it like before.

[Dublin13]

@Dublin13... there are other options from Clontarf Road in the period you mention.

For example, you could catch the 18:13 Howth bound DART as far as Howth, and pick up the 18:32 Dundalk train there (8 min wait at HJ).

Or the 18:31 and 18:57 (that one has a 14 min wait at HJ, so not ideal).

I leave work at 5.30 and can be at Clontarf for about 5.45 without any issue. My morning commute takes me 23 minutes from leaving my house to getting into the office, any of those options is going to add severe time on to the journey, to the point where it takes me at least 3x longer to get home at night to when I leave in the morning. It then becomes much easier to take the care than get the train.

However, I think the timetable could be much better designed so that Commutters don't end up chugging all the way to Malahide behind a DART (and there are several other points where a small change to the order of trains would allow Malahide branch passengers to use Howth DART and Commuter combinations, and also avoid delays for Northern line passengers.

The Howth line is ridiculously over-served. The frequency it gets bears no resplendence to the amount of passengers who actually use it in evening peak, almost all the pax are only going between Kilester and Howth Junction The easy solution is to remove one of the Howth Trains and add the 4 cars to the Malahide train that is overcrowded, freeing up paths and increasing capacity where needed.

Last night there was almost 70-80 people standing per carriage on the 17:54 from Connolly in the four car dart train, the Howth's just before and just after had barely a soul standing and past experience has shown they are almost empty by the time they reach Howth Junction whereas the Malahide ones are full. It's not unknown for passengers going to Malahide via HOWTH Darts alighting at Howth Junction to not be able ot even board at Howth Junction, that is how bad it is.

The 16.02 to Dundalk was stuck behind the 17:54 Malahide DART last night because of the chroni dwell times that DART suffers from because of intense overcrowding because of the fact it should never be a four car. If Irish rail adjusted capacity to demand everyone would get home quicker, but they don't so there are delays a plenty with knock on effect for trains behind.

Don't blame us Malahide passengers, we get a damn raw deal as well, the only people who are getting vastly overserved is Howth, so if there is going to be any fall guy in this it should be them as they have the most slack to give. Both commuter passengers and Malahide branch passengers are being shafted, I totally agree with that, but believe me, if your blaming the Malahide DARTs for running late, you're looking at a symptom of the overall issue rather than the direct cause.

All Irish rail have to do is stick the appropriate number of cars on the Malahide services and you will find the 18:02 commuter would be much more reliable. But they won't andd the Malahide guys who are at DART only station don't have a whole lot of other decent choices that doesn't increase there commute by several times over. The 17:54 Malahide gets later and later by the month as the overcrowding becomes worse and more often

In any case, unless Irish Rail do something in the next few weeks I won't be renewing my annual pass, I'd rather drive than deal with the crazy pantomime in the evening that Irish Rail know about and continue to allow carriages sit idle, despite people passing out in the summer and other trains carrying sweet fresh air.

[Dublin13]

7.07am from Clongriffin is now scheduled to be a 6 car set on Monday's now and an 8 car all other days with effect of last week for operational reasons apparently.

Why they take two cars off it on a Monday I have no idea but February will be the last month of me commuting via Irish Rail as I go back to the car as my annual ticket is up.

After using IE for almost 3 years I can't be bothered with this carry on anymore and with the timetable change kicked further down the road I'll reassess it when it gets implemented.

[Inniskeen]

1613

Just some idea of what could be done with northern line northbound peak period departures Mondays to Fridays - same number of trains but organised to interfere with each other as as little as possible.

A little less overcrowding and improved rather than dis-improved journey times.

[Jamie2k9]

Does Belfast fit into those plans without impacting?

[Inniskeen]

Just an extract, 1650 unchanged, 1900 departs 1905 and recovers 4 minutes to Drogheda and 1 minute thereafter.

[Dublin13]

1613 A little less overcrowding and improved rather than dis-improved journey times.

Not acceptable to Malahide branch passengers the minimum that needs to happen for any kind of acceptable service is;

17;58 ex Clontarf to be increased from cars.
The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

I agree the previous timetable published was unworkable but so is this one. I'm very sorry that commuter passengers are getting delayed by us people on the Malahide branch, but for some of us there is no train at all because we can't board which makes our evening commutes 2-3x longer than the morning.

[Jamie2k9]

The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

Is this to suit you or is there a genuine flow of commuter traffic from Clontarf towards Malahide?

[James Shields]

I'm reluctant to post fantasy timetables, because it's very easy to come up with timetables that seem perfectly sensible to us, but we can never take into account all the operational issues that have to be factored into a real world timetable.

However, have a look at the northbound movements through Connolly in the peak evening commuting period:

Time Gap Destination
16:50 Belfast
16:51 00:01 Drogheda
16:54 00:03 Malahide
17:08 00:14 Howth
17:21 00:13 Dundalk
17:24 00:03 Howth
17:39 00:15 Malahide
17:47 00:08 Maynooth
17:54 00:07 Howth
18:05 00:11 Drogheda
18:08 00:03 Howth
18:23 00:15 Drogheda
18:27 00:04 Howth
18:40 00:13 Drogheda
18:42 00:02 Malahide
18:47 00:05 Maynooth
18:53 00:06 Howth
19:00 00:07 Belfast

I'm counting 6 gaps of over 10 minutes, and two of 15 minutes. It should be possible to fit at least 6, and possibly 8 extra trains through Connolly while maintaining the 5 minute gaps required by the signalling system.

It should be possible to fit extra extra train paths to allow 6 DARTs per hour without massive increases to train times. Is the problem that "every 10 mins" is too inflexible? If the extra trains were added a little more flexibly, with a little of clustering of DARTs and some slightly longer gaps to allow longer distance trains to get through without completely ruining journey times. I think DART customers would appreciate the extra services, even if it's not quite a 10 minute frequency. Off-peak services could more easily achieve something closer to a 10 minute service.

I also think that overcrowding on commuter services needs to be looked at. It wouldn't be hard to have a 4-car semi-express service running ahead of the busier northern line services, perhaps with stops in Balbriggan, Laytown and Drogheda, easing some of the demand on the stopping service following. I'm sure something similar on the Maynooth line would also be sensible.

Of course, extra services cost money, and I suspect the government subvention isn't likely to be increased any time soon.

[berneyarms]

Not acceptable to Malahide branch passengers the minimum that needs to happen for any kind of acceptable service is;

17;58 ex Clontarf to be increased from cars.
The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

I agree the previous timetable published was unworkable but so is this one. I'm very sorry that commuter passengers are getting delayed by us people on the Malahide branch, but for some of us there is no train at all because we can't board which makes our evening commutes 2-3x longer than the morning.

You keep saying that there is no option between 17:58 and 18:46 from Clontarf Road for Malahide line passengers.

However there is an alternative - you could get on the 18:13 to Howth as far as Howth Junction and change there for stations to Malahide with an eight minute connection at Howth Junction.

No it's not ideal, but it is a valid option.

[Dublin13]

Is this to suit you or is there a genuine flow of commuter traffic from Clontarf towards Malahide?

It's because people are getting left behind on the 17:58 because they are unable to board the train, even people get left behind at Connolly on a regular basis by that train.

[Dublin13]

You keep saying that there is no option between 17:58 and 18:46 from Clontarf Road for Malahide line passengers.

However there is an alternative - you could get on the 18:13 to Howth as far as Howth Junction and change there for stations to Malahide with an eight minute connection at Howth Junction.

A piss poor option at that. I Finish work at 5.30. My morning commute takes me 30 minutes from my door to the office. If I did what you said. it would be almost 1hr 15 mins in the evening.

I'd be waiting longer at Clontarf for a train than I spent door to door in the morning commute. But don't worry, someone on the Howht branch can get a bank of four seats to themselves with trains every 10-15 minutes.

No it's not ideal, but it is a valid option.

An even better option is the car with evening commute times like that because IE can't provide a proper level of service my car can.

Alternatively Irish Rail could just sling another two cars on the 17:58 and everyone can board. But that would make far too much sense.

The only time it happened to be more than four cars was when someone was doing a survey was on there about the service. Funny that.

[James Howard]

It would appear quite obvious that an extra 2 cars on the 17:58 would go a long way towards providing a vastly improved service towards Malahide.

But the consequences of the timetable change would effectively make the train impractical for the commute I've been doing for 12 years. In that time, my evening train option has gone from a comfortable train at exactly the right time that does the journey in an hour and 20 minutes to a choice of an uncomfortable train at exactly the right time or a two comfortable trains an hour either side of the right time, all of which take 15 to 20 minutes longer than what was achievable before Irish Rail invested tens of millions in new trains, new signalling, level crossing automation and platform lengthening. With the new timetable the 0545 from Sligo will take longer to get from Longford to Connolly than the old 0700ish service from Longford despite having 7 fewer stops.

We should have expected massive improvements in reliability due to the improvements in traction from railcars and the extra allowed journey time yet I don't really see any difference at all. This winter has been utterly awful - this morning's train was 15 minutes late yet there was no explanation or apology. This wasn't the signalling issue of the day as the train was this late by the time it got to Edgeworthstown.

The same pattern seems to have been repeated for the DART - massive investment in trains, platforms and signalling and the result of each investment seems to be a new timetable that is slower and less reliable than the previous timetable. Does the DART run any closer to timetable than it did 25 years ago when it could complete the journey in 10 minutes less time? It certainly is no more reliable than when I started commuting.

[berneyarms]

A piss poor option at that. I Finish work at 5.30. My morning commute takes me 30 minutes from my door to the office. If I did what you said. it would be almost 1hr 15 mins in the evening.

I'd be waiting longer at Clontarf for a train than I spent door to door in the morning commute. But don't worry, someone on the Howht branch can get a bank of four seats to themselves with trains every 10-15 minutes.

An even better option is the car with evening commute times like that because IE can't provide a proper level of service my car can.

Alternatively Irish Rail could just sling another two cars on the 17:58 and everyone can board. But that would make far too much sense.

The only time it happened to be more than four cars was when someone was doing a survey was on there about the service. Funny that.

From the outset - let me make it clear that I'm not in any way defending the use of the four car set - it shouldn't be there, full stop.

But at the same time it's not correct to continually suggest that people have to wait until 18:46. They don't, and I think you should acknowledge that. There is a viable connecting service at 18:13, which while it may not suit you ideally, could suit anyone finishing a little later.

The reason there are more Howth DARTs than to Malahide in the current timetable is more to do with the infrastructure constraints at Malahide - a complete redraft would be needed to deal with that.

It's clear that the schedulers tried to deliver a service from Connolly to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide through a combination of DARTs and Commuter trains.

I do understand your frustration (in particular about the four car DART), but the rest of it is by no means as simple and straightforward as you make it out to be. It needs a timetable recast to allow for the DART dwell time at Malahide - otherwise services would be blocked.

And being honest about it - on a wider point (not your commute specifically), plenty of people don't have a bus/train home directly when they finish work. Many people have to wait a short period to get their bus/train home. At the same time - you shouldn't, but that's another discussion.

[berneyarms]

It would appear quite obvious that an extra 2 cars on the 17:58 would go a long way towards providing a vastly improved service towards Malahide.

But the consequences of the timetable change would effectively make the train impractical for the commute I've been doing for 12 years. In that time, my evening train option has gone from a comfortable train at exactly the right time that does the journey in an hour and 20 minutes to a choice of an uncomfortable train at exactly the right time or a two comfortable trains an hour either side of the right time, all of which take 15 to 20 minutes longer than what was achievable before Irish Rail invested tens of millions in new trains, new signalling, level crossing automation and platform lengthening. With the new timetable the 0545 from Sligo will take longer to get from Longford to Connolly than the old 0700ish service from Longford despite having 7 fewer stops.

We should have expected massive improvements in reliability due to the improvements in traction from railcars and the extra allowed journey time yet I don't really see any difference at all. This winter has been utterly awful - this morning's train was 15 minutes late yet there was no explanation or apology. This wasn't the signalling issue of the day as the train was this late by the time it got to Edgeworthstown.

The same pattern seems to have been repeated for the DART - massive investment in trains, platforms and signalling and the result of each investment seems to be a new timetable that is slower and less reliable than the previous timetable. Does the DART run any closer to timetable than it did 25 years ago when it could complete the journey in 10 minutes less time? It certainly is no more reliable than when I started commuting.

No matter how much you invest in signalling, if frequency increases significantly on a single track line with passing loops, you are inevitably going to have increased likelihood of delays due to the knock-on effects of any delay that happens.

That's why there is the 10 minute wait at Edgeworthstown and Boyle in either direction - it's an attempt to keep a level of resilience in the timetable.

The proposed changes on the Sligo line really do not have anything to do with the increased DART service levels, but I suspect have more to do with changes in permanent speed restrictions on the route for whatever reason.

However the company seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with the scheduling of the lunchtime train which could be scheduled 40 minutes earlier and significantly faster.

Similarly, you cannot compare the DART 25 years ago with today - there are way more trains passing through the central section of the line between Connolly and Pearse, and that will necessarily mean longer journey times overall as they try to fit all of the trains through that space.

You've only got to look at commuter routes into and out of London - exactly the same thing has happened. Journey times have increased as the number of trains operated has also increased.

[James Howard]

The 10 minutes extra running time on Sligo is nothing to with waiting for crossing. They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

What amazes me is that stuff like this can go into timetables and remain there for years - another example is the 1905 to Sligo which is 10 minutes late at Mullingar every single time I take it and has been for the last 7 years or however long it's been running. The proposed timetable has a proposed 1700 departure from Docklands which any idiot can see will hold up the 1705 Connolly express departure. How can a supposed planning expert come up with this kind of stuff?

The sad thing about all of this is that a supposed service improvement which will cost more money to operate has ended up pissing everyone off, makes nothing significantly better for anyone that couldn't be sorted another way and makes things significantly worse for the vast majority of railway users.

Anyway, I can't see this timetable change happening given that it will only run for about 6 months before the PPT is done. There should also be further modifications when BXD opens to take advantage of improved connectivity at Broombridge, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen.

[Jamie2k9]

No matter how much you invest in signalling, if frequency increases significantly on a single track line with passing loops, you are inevitably going to have increased likelihood of delays due to the knock-on effects of any delay that happens.

Yes however it's about how such delays are managed. I would be in favor of a system to not delay everything but one service. Lets say there is 10 minutes between two crossing points. If X service is running more than 10 minutes late then it should be held at it's location and Y service allowed to operate on time. A massive amount of service disruption is because IE decided to delay everything which could last hours before schedules recover instead of delayed one service by an extra 10 minutes. It would not work all the time but you would see a significant improvement in service.

The proposed changes on the Sligo line really do not have anything to do with the increased DART service levels, but I suspect have more to do with changes in permanent speed restrictions on the route for whatever reason.

Replacing the 16.00 with an 09.30 out of Dublin is 100% down to increasing fleet utilization or removing a unit at Connolly. The rest of the changes are more less accommodating as many as possible up to normal schedules at 17.05.

They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

Crossing with 2 trains is perfectly doable provided schedulers are done right. More than 2 then there will be some issues when tings go wrong however with good scheduled those can be reduced. Anymore than 3 then singe line does not function more less at all and if it does it's not time friendly. Galway/Westport prefect example.

[berneyarms]

The 10 minutes extra running time on Sligo is nothing to with waiting for crossing. They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

What amazes me is that stuff like this can go into timetables and remain there for years - another example is the 1905 to Sligo which is 10 minutes late at Mullingar every single time I take it and has been for the last 7 years or however long it's been running. The proposed timetable has a proposed 1700 departure from Docklands which any idiot can see will hold up the 1705 Connolly express departure. How can a supposed planning expert come up with this kind of stuff?

The sad thing about all of this is that a supposed service improvement which will cost more money to operate has ended up pissing everyone off, makes nothing significantly better for anyone that couldn't be sorted another way and makes things significantly worse for the vast majority of railway users.

Anyway, I can't see this timetable change happening given that it will only run for about 6 months before the PPT is done. There should also be further modifications when BXD opens to take advantage of improved connectivity at Broombridge, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen.


Within the existing timetable, most trains cross with three trains en route:
the first at Maynooth, the second at Edgeworthstown and the third at Boyle.

That imposes restrictions in terms of how the railway can operate and on overall journey times. The timetable has some resilience built into it - trains in the "down" direction (i.e. towards Sligo) have extra dwell time built into the schedule at Edgeworthstown and trains in the "up" direction (i.e. towards Dublin) have extra dwell time built into the schedule at Boyle.

You have to have that on single track routes in order to have some resilience in the event of a train being delayed somewhere, otherwise everything would collapse. This is standard practice in scheduling. It's not there for a whim - it's there to try and keep the service running as reliably as possible. It's certainly not a ridiculous idea by any means. One look at similar single track lines anywhere will show you that the same principle is applied.

The number of trains was reduced by one in either direction simply as a cost cutting measure - nothing more than that, but it has the effect of reducing the possibility of delays to the 18:00 from Sligo and the trains that it crosses.

I can't comment on why the 19:05 is delayed, but something is obviously delaying the 18:00 further along the line and causing the 19:05 to wait longer at Killucan than it is supposed to.

I don't think that the 17:00 ex-Docklands would impact on the 17:05 that much to be honest - it's a shorter route to Glasnevin Junction from Docklands than from Connolly, so it should be about 10 minutes ahead of it by there, which allowing for 30 second station stops, should still have it 5 minutes ahead of the 17:05 at Clonsilla. The 17:05 also has to cross the 15:00 at Maynooth, so accelerating the 17:05 any more isn't going to solve anything.

With infrastructure limitations such as mixing Intercity and Commuter services with no passing facilities, and running a reasonably frequent service on a single track, scheduling can be a bloody difficult job to do - far more difficult than most people even remotely consider.

And to clarify, the comment that I made about the Sligo line changes was in relation to the slightly longer journey times for most trains - and that it is, from what I can glean, looking in detail at the proposed timetables, in all likelihood down to changes in the permanent speed restrictions for whatever reason, which has meant that maintaining the clock face timetable becomes impossible.

Now the question I would have is what's causing the changes in the PSRs? Is it to do with changes in sighting for signals or what?

Also, if you then sit down and try to path in the extra Friday train around 16:00 it's nigh on impossible to do it any faster with the new running times - having examined it I don't see how it can be accelerated.

The lunchtime "down" service in the proposed timetable could however be accelerated somewhat by leaving 40 minutes earlier - why it's scheduled as it is, is beyond me.

[Dublin13]

From the outset - let me make it clear that I'm not in any way defending the use of the four car set - it shouldn't be there, full stop.

And that is the root of the problem and the fact Irish Rail don't do anything about it

But at the same time it's not correct to continually suggest that people have to wait until 18:46. They don't, and I think you should acknowledge that. There is a viable connecting service at 18:13, which while it may not suit you ideally, could suit anyone finishing a little later.

Do you think it is acceptable for someone who finishes work at 5.30, which is not exactly an uncommon start time, in the biggest business park close to the city centre have to wait 30 minutes to leave the station right next to their workplace seeing the only train you can take direct go past full and then have to wait another 10 minutes for a connecting train, so you get home approx 1hr 15 mins after leaving work.

You can drive the whole way in 15 minutes. Tell me what incentive there is to take public transport with a solution like that? The problem is not just restricted to the 17:58 being 4 cars, the 18:46 is also four cars and if I word late sometimes I can't board that either!

The reason there are more Howth DARTs than to Malahide in the current timetable is more to do with the infrastructure constraints at Malahide - a complete redraft would be needed to deal with that.

Well clearly the current set-up is failing people, if people are getting left behind on the only direct train for 50 minutes and the one that follows it also has the same problem, there is something not quite right. They can manage it in morning peak, so why not do a full redraft in evening peak?

I read people here moaning about commuters being held up by DARTS, which I really feel sorry for them, because it is not acceptable, but their total journey time even with this is still less than it's taking me from Clontarf to Clongriffin every night taking into account the time I'm waiting at the station for a train after finishing work indeed, there's only one thing than being on a slow running train and that is not being able to board at all.

I do understand your frustration (in particular about the four car DART), but the rest of it is by no means as simple and straightforward as you make it out to be. It needs a timetable recast to allow for the DART dwell time at Malahide - otherwise services would be blocked.

And being honest about it - on a wider point (not your commute specifically), plenty of people don't have a bus/train home directly when they finish work. Many people have to wait a short period to get their bus/train home. At the same time - you shouldn't, but that's another discussion.[/QUOTE]

That's what passing loops are supposed to be created for. If they were A) properly built in both directions and B) used properly with a timetable to make the most of them this could help the service for everyone.

I agree with what you are saying but:
Leave work 17:30
Arrive Clontarf 17:45-ish
Cannot board train at 17.58
Board Train at 18:13
Alight at Howth Jct 18:24
Board at Howth Junction 18:32
Alight at Clongriffin 18:35

Bearing in mind that commuter is normally at least 5 minutes late, normally closer to 10, and it's 18:45.

Alternatively
Leave work in car 17:30
Arrive home in car 17:50

Tell me who wins.

[berneyarms]

And that is the root of the problem and the fact Irish Rail don't do anything about it

Do you think it is acceptable for someone who finishes work at 5.30, which is not exactly an uncommon start time, in the biggest business park close to the city centre have to wait 30 minutes to leave the station right next to their workplace seeing the only train you can take direct go past full and then have to wait another 10 minutes for a connecting train, so you get home approx 1hr 15 mins after leaving work.

You can drive the whole way in 15 minutes. Tell me what incentive there is to take public transport with a solution like that? The problem is not just restricted to the 17:58 being 4 cars, the 18:46 is also four cars and if I word late sometimes I can't board that either!

Well clearly the current set-up is failing people, if people are getting left behind on the only direct train for 50 minutes and the one that follows it also has the same problem, there is something not quite right. They can manage it in morning peak, so why not do a full redraft in evening peak?

I read people here moaning about commuters being held up by DARTS, which I really feel sorry for them, because it is not acceptable, but their total journey time even with this is still less than it's taking me from Clontarf to Clongriffin every night taking into account the time I'm waiting at the station for a train after finishing work indeed, there's only one thing than being on a slow running train and that is not being able to board at all.

That's what passing loops are supposed to be created for. If they were A) properly built in both directions and B) used properly with a timetable to make the most of them this could help the service for everyone.

I agree with what you are saying but:
Leave work 17:30
Arrive Clontarf 17:45-ish
Cannot board train at 17.58
Board Train at 18:13
Alight at Howth Jct 18:24
Board at Howth Junction 18:32
Alight at Clongriffin 18:35

Bearing in mind that commuter is normally at least 5 minutes late, normally closer to 10, and it's 18:45.

Alternatively
Leave work in car 17:30
Arrive home in car 17:50

Tell me who wins.

Ummm - in case I've missed something, the proposed timetable is a complete redraft which is why the Malahide and Howth split can change.

Just to point out that some years back IE did propose a turnback siding at Malahide beyond the station, but local residents objected and it was canned, so things are not as straightforward as you make out.

[Dublin13]

I never said that they were straightforward but there is a straightforward fix in the evening peak which Irish Rail refuse to do, so instead seeing as they are not interested in the easy fix, clearly other options have to be brought up.

All my dealings with Irish Rail have been unsatisfactory about the issue and they believe there is nothing wrong there, the fact that people are getting left behind often on the 17:58 appears not to bother them one iota..

If the 17:58 had the right number of carriages in line with capacity all of the rest would be irrelevant, but it doesn't and therefore the other issues are going to be brought up.

If they refuse to put into service any of the 20 something carriages sitting out they can always take two off the 6 car Howth that operates around that time, which carries a lot of fresh air.

Right now there are 14 cars to Howth going through Clontarf between 17:32 and 17:51. It might mean a passenger to Howth has to not have two seats to themselves for the whole journey or even may have to stand occasionally though.

[vegas82]

not to be argumentative but how on earth do you get from East Point to Clongriffin in 20 minutes at 5.30pm? Google maps says it takes 18 minutes without traffic. Do you use the port tunnel?

While i understand and acknowledge your frustration at not being able to board trains (which is unacceptable) a commute of circa an hour is not the worst thing in the world.

I commute from Northwood to Ballsbridge (drive and get on the train in clontarf) and it takes me c. an hour in the morning starting my journey at 6.50am. If i dont go to the gym on my way home and go straight home from work my journey time in the car is substantially increased as it is rush hour.

[vegas82]

Also - i think you are exxaggerating somewhat when you say the howth trains have fresh air - they are typically pretty near to full until Howth Junction.

The only time they seem to be empty is when the trains have been delayed for some reason and whole bunch filter through town within a 10 minute space.

Having lived in Sutton (in the same way the greystones people are affected) where you cant get every dart either (because you cant get a malahide train) sometimes when you are beyond the peak areas of the dart (which i consider from town out to howth junction), its unfortunate but you do suffer a reduction in available service because you are not in the core areas.

Are there proven passenger numbers that the vast majority of people on the malahide train are NOT alighting until after Howth Junction?

I'm not saying its fair that you get a lesser service, but i can also look at it logically and see that its a business (not necessarily a well run one) and they have to fund for the majority not the minority...

[berneyarms]

I never said that they were straightforward but there is a straightforward fix in the evening peak which Irish Rail refuse to do, so instead seeing as they are not interested in the easy fix, clearly other options have to be brought up.

All my dealings with Irish Rail have been unsatisfactory about the issue and they believe there is nothing wrong there, the fact that people are getting left behind often on the 17:58 appears not to bother them one iota..

If the 17:58 had the right number of carriages in line with capacity all of the rest would be irrelevant, but it doesn't and therefore the other issues are going to be brought up.

If they refuse to put into service any of the 20 something carriages sitting out they can always take two off the 6 car Howth that operates around that time, which carries a lot of fresh air.

Right now there are 14 cars to Howth going through Clontarf between 17:32 and 17:51. It might mean a passenger to Howth has to not have two seats to themselves for the whole journey or even may have to stand occasionally though.

It isn't as simple as you make out though.

The bottom line remains that they can't afford to have all of the sets in service (unless the PSO subsidy is increased, which it is being specifically increased for to fund the new service).

In terms of what sets work which trains, you also have to look at what trains those sets work throughout the day (they could be on very busy schools trains in the afternoon) and also where and when a set swap can take place to increase the train length - realistically that's only at Bray or Connolly.

It's somewhat a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Incidentally, you've previously commented on half-empty southbound trains at Connolly while your northbound train was jammed. That's frankly a meaningless observation - a realistic question would be whether they were half-empty leaving Grand Canal Dock having passed through the city centre.

[Dublin13]

not to be argumentative but how on earth do you get from East Point to Clongriffin in 20 minutes at 5.30pm? Google maps says it takes 18 minutes without traffic. Do you use the port tunnel?

I haven't driven for a while, but when I have or got a lift it has been 20-25 minutes. A train doesn't run on time either, more often than not that is also late so if you're gonna add on 5 minutes for the traffic make sure you allow for the train which is almost at least 5 minutes late as well.

I commute from Northwood to Ballsbridge (drive and get on the train in clontarf) and it takes me c. an hour in the morning starting my journey at 6.50am.

With all due respect, it's about twice the distance for the route you are taking.

[Dublin13]

It isn't as simple as you make out though. The bottom line remains that they can't afford to have all of the sets in service (unless the PSO subsidy is increased, which it is being specifically increased for to fund the new service).

n terms of what sets work which trains, you also have to look at what trains those sets work throughout the day (they could be on very busy schools trains in the afternoon) and also where and when a set swap can take place to increase the train length - realistically that's only at Bray or Connolly.

Nobody is asking them to put more sets out, although that is one solution, another is to change some allocations. People getting behind is not acceptable on a low frequency service. There are a 4 car and a 6 car and a 4 car to Howth in 20 minutes which are nowhere near as busy as the Malahide's. there is over capacity there. If that means someone else has to stand, well tough luck, be happy you can get on.

Incidentally, you've previously commented on half-empty southbound trains at Connolly while your northbound train was jammed. That's frankly a meaningless observation - a realistic question would be whether they were half-empty leaving Grand Canal Dock having passed through the city centre.

Incidentally I could argue that is exactly why Irish Rail are providing inadequate service - you make that point, but they are clearly not applying the same logic to the 17:58, on one hand you argue that some trains are carrying fresh air because other services are busy on return or outbound legs, but the 17:58 is busy and that is not taken into account.

[Dublin13]

Also - i think you are exxaggerating somewhat when you say the howth trains have fresh air - they are typically pretty near to full until Howth Junction.

Clearly, people who are taking a Howth service are so used to trains being empty because I can count 70-80 people standing on each carriage on the 17:58 every night religiously and those numbers are not exaggerated. There would be more if space permitted. At worst on those Howth trains I'm seeing 15-20 people standing, nowhere near full, and a lot of those services have at least a few seats spare. Just because a few people are standing doesn't mean it's full.

Having lived in Sutton (in the same way the greystones people are affected) where you cant get every dart either (because you cant get a malahide train) sometimes when you are beyond the peak areas of the dart (which i consider from town out to howth junction), its unfortunate but you do suffer a reduction in available service because you are not in the core areas.

It's not about service, it's about capacity first and foremost. I can't believe someone from Sutton can possibly moan though about evening peak service, the Howth Dart frequency in evening peak is MUCH higher than that of Malahide and at the end of the day, if you do miss a train the next one is only 10-15 mins away.

Are there proven passenger numbers that the vast majority of people on the malahide train are NOT alighting until after Howth Junction?

To give you an idea of how bad it is, the proceeding Howth train sometimes has more passengers for Malahide, Clongriffin and Portmarnock than it does for Howth, Sutton and Baysid quite often. I've come off that train at Howth Junction and there was no more than a dozen people in each carriage since it's the third train in 20 minutes to Howth.

The 17:58 train deposits a few passengers at Killester, Harmonstown, Raheny and Kilbarack, but it's normally only a handful or so each carriage I'd say, still badly overcrowded. At Howth Junction it gets busier still, with approx 50-60 people waiting on the Platform for Malahide quite often. Very occasionally, people have not been able to board at Howth Junction, but least there is a commuter behind.

Irish Rail however are only basing passenger numbers on before the split, in all my dealings with them they told me about passenger numbers through Connolly and Howth Trains were busy but it was clear that the actual destination of the passengers was not being taken into account which is absolutely essential in any proper capacity planning.

[vegas82]

I haven't driven for a while, but when I have or got a lift it has been 20-25 minutes. A train doesn't run on time either, more often than not that is also late so if you're gonna add on 5 minutes for the traffic make sure you allow for the train which is almost at least 5 minutes late as well.



With all due respect, it's about twice the distance for the route you are taking.

I'm not comparing the distance between northwood and clongriffin but i grew up in bayside and i think you are vastly under estimating your return journey home...it probably doesn't feel as long because it is more comfortable....

I'm just saying if it really is a 20 minute car journey then the train makes no sense whatsoever so why have you been persevering with it for so long...i wouldnt have had the patience!

[vegas82]

Clearly, people who are taking a Howth service are so used to trains being empty because I can count 70-80 people standing on each carriage on the 17:58 every night religiously and those numbers are not exaggerated. There would be more if space permitted. At worst on those Howth trains I'm seeing 15-20 people standing, nowhere near full, and a lot of those services have at least a few seats spare. Just because a few people are standing doesn't mean it's full.



It's not about service, it's about capacity first and foremost. I can't believe someone from Sutton can possibly moan though about evening peak service, the Howth Dart frequency in evening peak is MUCH higher than that of Malahide and at the end of the day, if you do miss a train the next one is only 10-15 mins away.



To give you an idea of how bad it is, the proceeding Howth train sometimes has more passengers for Malahide, Clongriffin and Portmarnock than it does for Howth, Sutton and Baysid quite often. I've come off that train at Howth Junction and there was no more than a dozen people in each carriage since it's the third train in 20 minutes to Howth.

The 17:58 train deposits a few passengers at Killester, Harmonstown, Raheny and Kilbarack, but it's normally only a handful or so each carriage I'd say, still badly overcrowded. At Howth Junction it gets busier still, with approx 50-60 people waiting on the Platform for Malahide quite often. Very occasionally, people have not been able to board at Howth Junction, but least there is a commuter behind.

Irish Rail however are only basing passenger numbers on before the split, in all my dealings with them they told me about passenger numbers through Connolly and Howth Trains were busy but it was clear that the actual destination of the passengers was not being taken into account which is absolutely essential in any proper capacity planning.

you talk about a handful of people getting off at killester etc..how many get off at Clongriffin? i'm not saying you aren't hard done by but you are unlucky that (1) you are getting on at a non-city centre station so the main lines dont tend to stop and (2) you are getting off at non core station so the main lines dont tend to stop.

While you are most definitely underserved for what you need are the majority of malahide people - maybe the people you see getting off at Howth Junction wouldnt have made the earlier malahide train anyway - we have no way of knowing....

And while i take your point about there being plenty of howth trains but often its the mainlines get priority and i could have been stuck waiting ages for a howth train. for example in the morning the 7.20(ish) from bayside always gets held waiting for the mainline to come through howth junction when its late - even if it means waiting 10+ minutes.

I think the takeaway is the underlying irish rail service is terrible for what we pay for it. the amount of times i turn up at Lansdown station to see the board tell me a train is arriving in 3 minutes which turns into 10 (even though i can see the train down the line, inching its way to the station)...or when it gets held outside GCD for no apparent reason.

[Dublin13]

I'm just saying if it really is a 20 minute car journey then the train makes no sense whatsoever so why have you been persevering with it for so long...i wouldnt have had the patience!

In the morning I can leave home at 7.30am and get to work for 8.00am.

In the evening if I could be sure of boarding the 17:58 could get home for 6.15pm.

The morning commute is fine, the evening commute is so-so, but take into account not being able to board and it's unacceptable.

My Annual taxsaver is the reason I've still been there and the problem with the 17:58 is that it has gradually got worse over 12 months.

[Dublin13]

you talk about a handful of people getting off at killester etc..how many get off at Clongriffin? i'm not saying you aren't hard done by but you are unlucky that (1) you are getting on at a non-city centre station so the main lines dont tend to stop and (2) you are getting off at non core station so the main lines dont tend to stop.

At least 100 are getting off that train at Clongriffin, and that may be a touch on the conservative side. Pretty much all the DART's into Clongriffin are alighting about 80-90 in the second half of evening peak, the commuters that do stop a bit less.

While you are most definitely underserved for what you need are the majority of malahide people - maybe the people you see getting off at Howth Junction wouldnt have made the earlier malahide train anyway - we have no way of knowing....

The Train I am talking about is 7 minutes before the Malahide, people who I used to see get the 17:58 who presumably decided they were far better off getting the Howth in the knowledge that they may not be able to board the Malahide and have a better chance at boarding at Howth Junction.

And while i take your point about there being plenty of howth trains but often its the mainlines get priority and i could have been stuck waiting ages for a howth train. for example in the morning the 7.20(ish) from bayside always gets held waiting for the mainline to come through howth junction when its late - even if it means waiting 10+ minutes.

I agree, but delays are not unique to the Howth branch, my other half is getting the 16:54 DART from Connolly regularly and that is almost always 5-10 minutes late, getting held up by the Enterprise leaving Connolly late by a few minutes and the commuter that is a also ahead of it that is also late. The last few days that DART seems to be only around 5 minutes late, but it's common for it to be at least 10 minutes late.

[Inniskeen]

The 1654 from Connolly is almost never delayed by the Enterprise, it originates in Greystones and is frequently late departing from there. Like some other services originating in Greystones it is habitually late. This will probably be more of an issue with the 10 minute interval DART service as turn-around time in Greystones is reduced and the potential for congestion related delays greatly increased.

As for the 1758 Malahide service, it is obvious that the issue is that there is too much traffic for a four car train - either six or even eight cars need to be rostered. Given the DART fleet size and the amount of idle DART equipment this should not be an insurmountable issue to resolve. A lot of money and massive disruption was invested in lengthening platforms, moving signals and upgrading electrical equipment to facilitate 8 car DARTs and yet IR insist on running 4 car trains during the peak.

[Dublin13]

The 1654 from Connolly is almost never delayed by the Enterprise, it originates in Greystones and is frequently late departing from there. Like some other services originating in Greystones it is habitually late. This will probably be more of an issue with the 10 minute interval DART service as turn-around time in Greystones is reduced and the potential for congestion related delays greatly increased.

I have no idea what is delaying it, all I know is that my OH often says that the Enterprise at 16:50 often leaves Connolly a few minutes late, which backs up the 16:51 Commuter which has to wait for the enterprise to go out, which then in turn backs up the 16.54 DART. Normally the Commuter is going through Clontarf about 16:58 on the rare times I have seen it when I finished work early, when the DART is due so since it is only coming from Pearse, something is clearly holding it up.

Now I'm not saying that the DART hasn't already lost time by the time it gets to Connolly at Greystones, but it seems to lose a few minutes more because of the commuter ahead of it, which is clearly held up by something for a few minutes and with an Enterprise train 1 minute ahead of it, seems perfectly possible.

Likewise, if the Enterprise leaves bang on 16:50, the Commuter leaves bang on 16:51 the delay on that DART is normally a few minutes delay as opposed to nearly 10.

As for the 1758 Malahide service, it is obvious that the issue is that there is too much traffic for a four car train - either six or even eight cars need to be rostered. Given the DART fleet size and the amount of idle DART equipment this should not be an insurmountable issue to resolve. A lot of money and massive disruption was invested in lengthening platforms, moving signals and upgrading electrical equipment to facilitate 8 car DARTs and yet IR insist on running 4 car trains during the peak.

The most frustrating thing for me is that I can get on a train going to Malahide at 9pm an it has 8 cars with barely a soul on it. There is more capacity on the Malahide branch at weekends between 5pm to 7pm than there is during the week - all the trains are six cars!!!

[vegas82]

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Heavy_Rail_Census_2014_Full_Report.pdf

pg 31/32 of this document is interesting and would be useful to see how it compares now. If we assume that all those travelling southbound do need to return (at some point), while malahide, portmarnck, and clongriffen are busy - so are bayside, sutton, and howth. If you look at people boarding darts the numbers are comparable 2677 vs. 2654. If you add in mainline trains the malahide portmarnck clongriffin numbers increase to 3,636 which is higher, but they also have the benefit of those trains.

I think what this shows is you cant demonise the howth passengers and say their service should be materially reduced and that the carriages are "empty" - but yes there should be more "sharing", particularly in terms of load for each train. I dont know why that cant be achieved at the very least - even if they dont add additional trains

[Dublin13]

Those stats mean absolutely nothing in this debate because they only factor people boarding and going from stations for the whole day and nobody I know is complaining about the service from those stations, rather the stations to it in the evening peak.

But if you want to use those stats, which I don't think are really relevant, the numbers are very close between passenger numbers for the two branches, but the timetable is nowhere near 50/50 on the DART.

There is over double the capacity on the DART going to Howth in terms of carriages in the second half of evening peak to Malahide but those stats show that the passenger numbers are around the same on those services.

So even if you want to use those less than useful figures, it still shows the current timetable is applying too much capacity to one branch and not enough to another.

[vegas82]

yes there does seem to be a bunching of trains around 6pm that goes to howth.

But if you look at the 4 - 8pm period and inlcude main lines there are 11 trains serving malahide vs. 12 serving howth...but obviously not all stop at clontarf, and as you say carriage numbers are lacking.

if they could simply increase the carriage that would at least go some way to making peoples lives easier!

[Dublin13]

yes there does seem to be a bunching of trains around 6pm that goes to howth.

But if you look at the 4 - 8pm period and inlcude main lines there are 11 trains serving malahide vs. 12 serving howth...but obviously not all stop at clontarf, and as you say carriage numbers are lacking.

Which itself puts pressure on the 17:58 and the 18:46 the two that actually do stop at Clontarf when they are 4 cars, which people in Clontarf are not always able to board - hence the frustration, so little trains and the ones that do arrive are full.

Changing trains is an option but then the journey times become so uncompetitive with the car in the evening that it's not worth using public transport at all.

if they could simply increase the carriage that would at least go some way to making peoples lives easier!

Of those three Howths in quick succession, one is 4 car, the other varies between 4 and 6 car from Dun Lagohaire but more often 4, and the other is 6 car. With three trains in 20 minutes and one of them not even a full run, there has to be scope to spare 2 cars.

[vegas82]

I agree.

[James Shields]

Something worth mentioning is that after 2009, commuter numbers fell significantly, so there was some justification in reducing capacity. However over the last couple of years, employment has risen and commuter numbers with it. I don't know if there are any figures, but it certainly seems like commuter numbers are close to previous peaks.

Isn't it time to restore capacity accordingly?

James

[Inniskeen]

1600 from Greystones running well this evening, only 3 minutes late south of Pearse. Further delayed at Pearse due to late running 1644 to Drogheda which left Pearse at 1651. With no DART to obstruct progress the Drogheda train was on time arriving at Howth Junction.

The Belfast train didn't delay anything but was delayed by the preceding Howth train which was running about 6 minutes late.

[Dublin13]

1600 from Greystones running well this evening, only 3 minutes late south of Pearse. Further delayed at Pearse due to late running 1644 to Drogheda which left Pearse at 1651. With no DART to obstruct progress the Drogheda train was on time arriving at Howth Junction.

The Belfast train didn't delay anything but was delayed by the preceding Howth train which was running about 6 minutes late.

The Belfast train, which was due at 16:50, was late but not late enough to delay the 16:51. So you're talking about a delay of less than 60 seconds? It only delayed nothing because the other trains were running late.

Strangely enough, when the Howth runs on time, the Enterprise runs on time, the commuter runs on time, and the Dart is only 2-3 minutes late, but when one is delayed, they are all delayed by a few minutes here and there so it's a chain of delays.

From what I have seen, if the Howth runs late, it prevents the commuter train from departing on-time The Enterprise then gets delayed by a small amount of minutes, by the Howth and the commuter train also running late, then holds up the Malahide DART.

What it does show is that the infrastructure is general completely inadequate for the mix of services that it runs and having 3 trains leave Connolly northbound in 4 minutes is clearly not going to be smooth running, that is before you even take into account what happens if the Howth runs late and makes it 4 trains in 7 minutes like today all on the same tracks.

[Inniskeen]

Got it in one - the infrastructure is inadequate to support the existing service let alone a near 50% increase in DART frequency !

[berneyarms]

Something worth mentioning is that after 2009, commuter numbers fell significantly, so there was some justification in reducing capacity. However over the last couple of years, employment has risen and commuter numbers with it. I don't know if there are any figures, but it certainly seems like commuter numbers are close to previous peaks.

Isn't it time to restore capacity accordingly?

James

Well perhaps you can ask the NTA and government to restore the PSO subsidy to pay for that?

That's part of the problem here.

[James Howard]

Got it in one - the infrastructure is inadequate to support the existing service let alone a near 50% increase in DART frequency !

This is the nub of the issue. If Irish Rail can't keep the timetable they've got at the moment, how the hell are they going to manage when they are putting significantly more trains down the line.

Capacity can be added without affecting reliability by simply redirecting the extra cars that would be added to the more frequent service towards longer trains. Everyone gets a better service and everyone is happy. The extra frequency is largely irrelevant anyway since most of the time savings offered will be lost by longer running times. At best most people will see end-to-end improvements of a minute or 2 while a whole load of other people will see end-to-end journey time increases of 10 minutes or more.

Plus when the inevitable autumn delays (which still haven't ended this year) roll in, the whole thing will utterly fall to pieces. It would make a lot more sense to see how the signalling upgrades settle in for a few months, recast to accommodate the PPT services, leave that a few months and then introduce more changes.

[Inniskeen]

That would be a better use of NTA funds than the unwarranted and impractical 10 minute interval off-peak DART proposal. Extra capacity at the peak period is the primary issue for DART users and only requires activation of idle and relatively new/recently refurbished rolling stock.

[Dublin13]

Personally this is what I'd like.

Essential
- 2 Extra cars on the 17:58
- 2 Extra cars on the 18:46

Important
- An earlier Malahide Dart Monday to Friday (in the draft timetable)
- An overhaul of the weekend timetables to remove long gaps in service (in the draft timetable)

Nice to have:
- Better Sunday service
- Something between the 17:58 and 18:46 DART

I couldn't care less about the 10 minute frequency.

[Thomas J Stamp]

yes, well, i think IE have woken up to the fact that the proposed timetable is fantasy island stuff. (and it wasnt even the proper timetable as it made no mention of just where the PPT trains were going to fit in)

the reality is that but for the ability to carry out regular maintenance on all available DART carriages this issue with the Malahide service wouldn't exist, and that is down to the PSO.

It's officially election time so we'll be reopening the election forum. One thing I remember from 2011/2012 was it was Gov policy to drastically reduce - with the aim to eliminate - the PSO. This was generated from a certain degree of massive Dail Majority surplus hubris as it was their view that they would be in power for two if not more dail terms. The mid-term local elections put a stop to that gallop and although the PSO is at barely manageble levels the old policy of Leo was reversed when Paschal Donoghue got into the hot seat.

But we have seen ministers of all hues come and go in our time, yet railways remain the "problem child" of transport and government policy. Just enough to keep it going, to allow a minister to cut a ribbon every so often, and blame IE and the NTA if there is a strike.

Income from the fares box cannot run the railways, thats been proven - even with the incentive of Taxsaver we are hearing of people giving up and using the car or the bus.

The solution isnt the golden dawn of "increased effeciances" either because they're just not going to happen at the pace which is needed, and so we are back to the PSO, which is a decision of Government and there is an election underway. Therein lies the solutiuon.

[Jamie2k9]

IE have loaded existing schedules up to 3 September, so would appear no timetable before 4 September.

[Mark Gleeson]

Not taking bookings after April 11th so no change

[Jamie2k9]

Indeed, except Belfast.

Still hard to see them going ahead as it will just mean a strike.

[Jamie2k9]

Confirmed not going ahead but some DART services will see increased capacity at peak times.

[ThomasJ]

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0330/778247-dart-irish-rail/

[ACustomer]

Irish Rail management clearly can't do things which we would normally regard as managing the company: things such as setting a timetable. This is because Irish Rail is, in effect, a union-run company (not the only one in the semi-state sector).

Why not get rid of the (non)management entirely and hand the lot over to SIPTU and the NBRU to run. The subsidy to the company would be decided by Government, and it would be reduced by x% for every strike day. Effectively the unions would be striking against themselves. It might give them some appreciation of the realities of life.

Bonkers? Well no more so than what we have at the moment.

[Mark Gleeson]

Much simpler

IE
Here is your roster, it is within the limits agreed by your union for which your fellow employees voted to accept by secret ballot

Driver
I refuse

IE
Formal warning, if you do not present yourself for work you will be dimissed

[Mickey H]

Is there any point in making a formal complaint about IE refusing online bookings for the week commencing April 11 and if so who to? They are about to loose around 70 Euros revenue as I am not waiting much longer before deciding to go by Bus Eireann for an upcoming trip

[Mark Gleeson]

I would imagine post April 11th will be available on Sligo/Rosslare/Belfast by tomorrow morning

Bookings on all Heuston routes are available out to 60 days as normal

The NTA set no rules as to how far ahead booking is allowed other than it must be offered

[James Howard]

Irish Rail management clearly can't do things which we would normally regard as managing the company: things such as setting a timetable. This is because Irish Rail is, in effect, a union-run company (not the only one in the semi-state sector).

One does wonder what all of the layers of organisations involved are actually for. As far as I can see, the NTA has to decide on a level of service, the Minster for Transport approves a budget, Irish Rail then comes up with a timetable and the unions then decide whether or not they would like to operate it. At no point is there any meaningful discussion with passengers, employers, businesses, property developers or any other stakeholders to try to determine what they need from the service. Where does CIE and the department of transport fit in here?

Have we now reached a point where it is basically impossible to make things better? Irish Rail management seems at this point to be entirely redundant in whole process.

[Jamie2k9]

If what Mark has said can happen and acheive the 10 minute timetable, then I suspect the only reason they are holding back is because of pay claims and implementing it now will likely cost them more financially in the coming years as it will mean unions will push for bigger pay increases.

It can now be sold with extra pay and increased productivity and both can claim a win. While the reality is neither side gain anything.

Current CEO not one to usually shy away from trouble but as the pay claim from October was happening anyway best wait.

[Mark Gleeson]

I would imagine post April 11th will be available on Sligo/Rosslare/Belfast by tomorrow morning

Bookings on all Heuston routes are available out to 60 days as normal

The NTA set no rules as to how far ahead booking is allowed other than it must be offered


60 day booking window has been restored on all routes

[Dublin13]

Seems I made the right choice in stopping using the DART.

My other half took my car yesterday and I got the train for the first time in a while and noticed they strengthened one of the Howth sets that already had plenty of space that run within 10 minutes of each other, and left the 17:58 from Clontarf to Malahide alone and was unable to board so called a taxi.

I note that Irish Rail claim they are going to increase capacity due to lack of the new timetable, but that is only going to work if they actually increase the capacity in the places that need it rather than adding the capacity to places that doesn't....

[ACustomer]

What do you bet that the unions will attempt to veto extra capacity on some peak hour DARTs?

That's what comes when you have no effective government.

[Dublin13]

Whilst they clearly are pushing their luck and trying to take advantage of the situation for their own needs with the government situation, I don't think that is the only factor.

Unions are hoping for a FF minority government from what I have heard, on the basis that during the last FF government tenure they could pretty much name their price.

[Jamie2k9]

What do you bet that the unions will attempt to veto extra capacity on some peak hour DARTs?

That's what comes when you have no effective government.

While it won't happen and if it did IE are in a very powerful position on it to address it.

TBH having a Government would be a benefit to the unions.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Confirmed not going ahead but some DART services will see increased capacity at peak times.


which begs the question, why not already? Suggest that these 10 min train sets, when they happen, could be small.

[Dublin13]

I heard only the other day that with DB, and IR having talks about issues, BE might join in soon and if this dispute is not settled there could be a prospect of all of them all threatening to striking on the same day to heap pressure on a government in it's first days.

The rationale being that should a FF led government get in power they will almost certainly not allow that to happen and will give in pretty easy, as happened in the past.

[Jamie2k9]

which begs the question, why not already? Suggest that these 10 min train sets, when they happen, could be small.

I did say on here that it would likely result in all 4 coach operations with likely a mix of 2 and 4 late night.

I heard only the other day that with DB, and IR having talks about issues, BE might join in soon and if this dispute is not settled there could be a prospect of all of them all threatening to striking on the same day to heap pressure on a government in it's first days.

The rationale being that should a FF led government get in power they will almost certainly not allow that to happen and will give in pretty easy, as happened in the past.

FF will have to wait another 5 years even if we had another election tomorrow I suspect.

There will not be an all out strike, it would be difficult for DB and BE to strike together never mind get IE involved. There is no Government tap anymore as supplementary budgets are gone.

There is scope in DB for moderate pay rise, BE not in as good position but some room and IE cannot afford it however they will have to.

[berneyarms]

Can I ask what is the formal position of RUI with regard to the 10 minute DART timetable?

[Mark Gleeson]

The position with respect to the draft timetable issued was

Fails To Address Social Needs
No service on any route reaches Dublin before 0850 on a Sunday (and by extension a bank holiday). There should be at least 1 arrival from Maynooth, Greystones, Drogheda and Howth before 0850 on a Sunday No service after 2330 despite Luas operating for 10 years up to 0030 6 days a week

Poor Design
Loss of clockface timetabling on several routes is disappointing Saturday timetable is completely different to Monday to Friday, more confusion Dublin Belfast journey times now no better than those in 1947, first year of the Dublin Belfast Enterprise service DART journey times are ridiculously padded and are 10 minutes longer than needed. This is an attempt to hide lazy and slow operating practices. This will result in significant extra staff and operating costs by requiring an extra train set in service and drivers to drive.

Dublin Belfast
Improvements on Sunday long overdue
Pre 9am arrival in Dublin positive change, but journey time unacceptable Addition of Lisburn adds time to an already slow schedule, we see no justification for this Still no pre 9am arrival in Belfast from Dublin, this is unacceptable Connections between Commuter and Enterprise services at Drogheda/Dundalk are not timed to provide reasonable connections, ideally a northbound commuter train should arrive Drogheda 5-10 minutes before a Belfast bound train and depart to Dublin 5-10 minutes after the arrival of a train from Belfast No connection into 0710 Dublin Belfast at Drogheda Timetable PDF will need to show clearly that the 0910 Dublin Belfast overtakes the 0540 Rosslare Dundalk to avoid confusion

Dublin Rosslare
The 05:40 now arrives too late into Dublin to be of real use for commuters as a result of the ridiculously extended DART timetables. All Connolly Rosslare departures on Sunday should be scheduled to depart three minutes later from Connolly, trains would still arrive Bray in advance of the proposed time Evening departure to Dublin should depart Rosslare no earlier than 1845 to ensure connection with ferry.

Dublin Sligo
The alterations to the schedule and particularly the loss of the 1600 and retiming of 1305 are likely to result in serious overcrowding issues The loss of the simple clockface timetable is disappointing


Maynooth/M3 line
Later Sunday evening service is required.


Northern Line
A review of afternoon weekday services is required to ensure these meet the needs of the significant volume of school children who travel home. 30 minute gap between 1653 and 1723 northbound from Pearse is a major concern, the long standing 1713 was the first 8 coach commuter train introduced back in 1999
The 1712 Connolly Balbriggan service should now start from Pearse (or indeed from Dun Laoghaire as there won't be space to hold the train in Pearse)
23:23 Pearse Drogheda should run to Dundalk saving passengers the awkward change at Drogheda also saving passengers 9 minutes


DART
While the move to a 10 minute interval service is welcomed (having being promised as far back as 1983) the implementation is poor and shows little effort to operate the service efficiently which in turn has significant negative impacts on other routes.
DART end to end journey time is now 75 minutes. The original 1984 timetable was 60 minutes, with the addition of 2 stations we can see a justification for a time of 66 minutes off peak/70 minutes on peak.

Reducing the journey time by 5 minutes would
1. Allow each train set to make one extra trip per day, fewer trains and drivers required
2. Shorter journeys are more attractive to customers and will increase demand
3. Commuter and intercity services would benefit from reduced journey times
4. As fewer train sets needed, you can have longer trains, ability to make 3 6 coach trains 8 coaches in length

10 minute frequency in the very early morning and after 10pm is excessive and wasteful of limited funding. An early morning/late night (pre 7am, post 10pm) frequency of 15 minutes is sufficient and still represents an improvement on current. The savings from this should be used to provide 23:45, 00:00 departures north/south from City Mon-Thursday and 2345 0000 0015 0030 service on a Fri/Sat. Note last Luas has always been 0030

A rework is required with respect to Rosslare/Greystones services. The current busiest train in the country for several years in a row has been the 0800 Greystones Malahide will now leave at 0804 and take 6 minutes longer to reach the City Centre thus making the train useless for those with a 9am start for work. By applying the journey time reductions we identified above this train would be restored to 0800 and arrive as current in Dublin. This would return Greystones services to the current xx00 and xx30 departure times. This in turn would improve the arrival time of the 0540 Rosslare Dundalk. This would require a rethink of the entire timetable to factor in the journey time reductions on Northern Line and Belfast services.

[berneyarms]

Thanks.

I suspect later departures than 23:30 would require contract changes with the NTA. It's no different to DB and BE PSO services either.

[Mark Gleeson]

Unlike BE/DB Irish Rail does not need a licence for a route and can run whenever they like

[Inniskeen]

Mark's summary captures a lot of the issues that seem to be evident to just about everybody but Irish Rail and the NTA.

Contrary to the RUI position, I am of the opinion that a 10 minute interval all day DART service is impractical on existing infrastructure and will basically be an embarrassment for the railway and a major inconvenience for all users including, ironically, DART users.

It is probably time to submit this issue for an independent expert review which would take into account service demand, revenue, cost, track layouts, signalling, rolling stock efficiency and staff rostering.

[James Howard]

Am I correct in assuming that RUI has no official standing and that submitting a list like this has as much effect as our own personal submissions. Mark's comments are excellent and I personally submitted a subset of these that were almost exactly the same.

I find it utterly absurd that there is no official response from Irish Rail regarding passenger concerns with timetables. Some of us spend far more time on trains than any senior Irish Rail manager and we'll often see things going awry in the same place at the same time every day for years. Yet nobody in Irish Rail pays any attention whatsoever to customers.

I get the distinct impression that every passenger submission on timetables goes straight into the round filing cabinet under somebody's desk. It would be a pity of an RUI submission was dealt with in the same manner as there really seems to be nobody looking after passenger interests

[Jamie2k9]

Having a position or not is pointless as it hold's little weight (no disrespect), the schedules are confined and largely agreed before they are published to the public.

Thanks.

I suspect later departures than 23:30 would require contract changes with the NTA. It's no different to DB and BE PSO services either.

If the NTA provided the diesel they still wouldn't operate a lather service. There is scope to run a 00.30 or even 01.00 on Fridays/Saturdays at the very least.

[James Howard]

So how do Irish Rail or the NTA do market research? This is normally the first step in trying to provide a better service to a customer. If there is no way of getting the customer's opinion on whether a service is useful, then you run a very strong chance of getting things wrong.

Take for example, the delay of the 0800 Greystones departure - the single busiest train on the network. A 4 minute change might seem inconsequential but for many people, it is not feasible to regularly turn up at the office at 4 minutes past 9 for a 9 o'clock start. How does an organisation with any degree of customer focus end up producing such a change?

Constraints or not, if you can't change things for the better, then leave them be. The whole 10 minute DART thing is a wheeze to be able to have an "improvement" to point at to justify more NTA money.

[berneyarms]

Unlike BE/DB Irish Rail does not need a licence for a route and can run whenever they like

Fair enough - but I doubt you're going to get IE operating beyond 23:30 without the same happening to DB services as well.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have and continue to highlight issues with the timetable. Legally there is no concept of consultation and as long as Irish Rail is setting the timetable its not going to really work out.

The reality is that even with the proposed timetable there would have still been fewer peak hour DART services than there were in 2007.

The issue isn't the DART frequency

[berneyarms]

Am I correct in assuming that RUI has no official standing and that submitting a list like this has as much effect as our own personal submissions. Mark's comments are excellent and I personally submitted a subset of these that were almost exactly the same.

I find it utterly absurd that there is no official response from Irish Rail regarding passenger concerns with timetables. Some of us spend far more time on trains than any senior Irish Rail manager and we'll often see things going awry in the same place at the same time every day for years. Yet nobody in Irish Rail pays any attention whatsoever to customers.

I get the distinct impression that every passenger submission on timetables goes straight into the round filing cabinet under somebody's desk. It would be a pity of an RUI submission was dealt with in the same manner as there really seems to be nobody looking after passenger interests

Given that the timetable change has been shelved for the moment, I'm not really sure what response you'd expect them to issue?

One would assume that there would have been an updated schedule taking into account as many of the opinions as possible, and I'd have expected a similar summary of submissions as the NTA do to their consultations, but given that the change isn't actually taking place there's not much point in doing that right now surely?

[berneyarms]

Having a position or not is pointless as it hold's little weight (no disrespect), the schedules are confined and largely agreed before they are published to the public.

If the NTA provided the diesel they still wouldn't operate a lather service. There is scope to run a 00.30 or even 01.00 on Fridays/Saturdays at the very least.

I think that is a very patronising view.

Sure RUI have no legal standing, but they're entitled to have a position as an organisation and I was just curious to see what it was.

Given that none of us have seen what the final post-consultation timetable is, making sweeping statements as you are is rather ridiculous. Maybe they did manage to change some of the times - I'd rather wait until seeing the final result before making fairly sweeping judgements.

[James Howard]

Obviously, this particular timetable no longer matters since it has been shelved. But the principle still applies to any future timetables. Since the service is provided for passengers, why is it a difficult concept for everyone to ask the passengers what they want improved in a new timetable.

An even more radical approach might be to ask city centre employers / retailers what they would like to see improved.

[berneyarms]

Obviously, this particular timetable no longer matters since it has been shelved. But the principle still applies to any future timetables. Since the service is provided for passengers, why is it a difficult concept for everyone to ask the passengers what they want improved in a new timetable.

An even more radical approach might be to ask city centre employers / retailers what they would like to see improved.

As I said above - I would certainly expect to see a summary of submissions and an official response before a new timetable is put in place. I think that is a minimum requirement these days.

[berneyarms]

We have and continue to highlight issues with the timetable. Legally there is no concept of consultation and as long as Irish Rail is setting the timetable its not going to really work out.

The reality is that even with the proposed timetable there would have still been fewer peak hour DART services than there were in 2007.

The issue isn't the DART frequency

So does that mean that you would broadly support the 10 minute frequency during the daytime, subject to the reduced frequency comment above for early mornings/late evenings?

[Jamie2k9]

I think that is a very patronising view.

Sure RUI have no legal standing, but they're entitled to have a position as an organisation and I was just curious to see what it was.

Given that none of us have seen what the final post-consultation timetable is, making sweeping statements as you are is rather ridiculous. Maybe they did manage to change some of the times - I'd rather wait until seeing the final result before making fairly sweeping judgements.

I never said they couldn't have a position however it's very unlikely to have an impact. They have and continue to try make IE change/improve and do in lots of area's but to my knowledge haven't had much success or when they have it's take IE years to come round with scheduling.

Take Sunday service they have spent years calling for improvements and nothing really has happened or if RUI were against the 10 minute timetable, IE would go ahead if they could. Another example the new 06.15 ex Cork was raised (not that it would matter) and how it would impact schedules yet IE did nothing for about 2 months before it was fully sorted. When people who have zero experience with schedules could see the problems.

Timetables are 99.9% confirmed before they go to the public.

In some respects I understand why IE won't to x, y or z with schedules however some decisions would never get past unions and then others are pure unwillingness.

Take the petty change to Belfast services which are not needed but they won't tell NIR that, I'm sure the same applies here, they do not like been told how to schedule services and won't admit when maybe some valid points have been raised. If David Franks was doing his job he would tell middle management to cop on and tell NIR no changes are been implemented to Belfast services.

As for the final draft of the current schedule, we have saw it, you shouldn't believe any changes of more than 3-4 minutes were going to be made. You really give IE to much credit when it comes to scheduling.

[berneyarms]

I never said they couldn't have a position however it's very unlikely to have an impact. They have and continue to try make IE change/improve and do in lots of area's but to my knowledge haven't had much success or when they have it's take IE years to come round with scheduling.

Take Sunday service they have spent years calling for improvements and nothing really has happened or if RUI were against the 10 minute timetable, IE would go ahead if they could. Another example the new 06.15 ex Cork was raised (not that it would matter) and how it would impact schedules yet IE did nothing for about 2 months before it was fully sorted. When people who have zero experience with schedules could see the problems.

Timetables are 99.9% confirmed before they go to the public.

In some respects I understand why IE won't to x, y or z with schedules however some decisions would never get past unions and then others are pure unwillingness.

Take the petty change to Belfast services which are not needed but they won't tell NIR that, I'm sure the same applies here, they do not like been told how to schedule services and won't admit when maybe some valid points have been raised. If David Franks was doing his job he would tell middle management to cop on and tell NIR no changes are been implemented to Belfast services.

As for the final draft of the current schedule, we have saw it, you shouldn't believe any changes of more than 3-4 minutes were going to be made. You really give IE to much credit when it comes to scheduling.

Well I would prefer to be someone who waits until a final document is published before passing judgement, rather than jumping in with both feet first.

Personally I've found over the years that to be a far more sensible approach rather than making constant negative posts.

[Jamie2k9]

Well I would prefer to be someone who waits until a final document is published before passing judgement, rather than jumping in with both feet first.

Personally I've found over the years that to be a far more sensible approach rather than making constant negative posts.

You choice but from going by past schedules and the alleged drafts nothing really changes. I don't see why this would be any different this time round.

The only difference I see coming is the 10 minute DART will happen towards end of the year or it won't happen at all or at least until end of 2017.

[Inniskeen]

It is clear that that IR/NTA are committed to the ten minute DART project irrespective of the consequences for other services and customers.

It looks like it will take the inevitable embarrassing mess that will occur on implementation for IR/NTA or NTA/IR to see sense and back off

It really couldn't be simpler, this timetable is not practical on a shared simple twin track infrastructure. Dublin/Drogheda/Dundalk passengers will get a preview from tomorrow of the type of messing required to support ten-minute DART frequency.

The only good thing to come out of this shambolic exercise is that additional capacity (in terms of increased set sizes) will be inserted into the DART operation from tomorrow. This and some other minor changes is all that ever needed to be done ! The current fifteen minute off-peak service is more than adequate for demand and arguably should be extended to Saturdays and Sundays when off-peak demand is usually higher anyway.

I don't take joy in being negative, a ten minute frequency DART (or better) on a four track infrastructure with airport expresses, hourly (or half hourly) Belfast services and a fast longer distance commuter service would be fantastic in making/restoring railway relevance. The current proposals do the opposite and will drive away as much business as they attract.

It is not just frequency that makes LUAS such a success, it is accessibility and station/train ambience. DART does not score as well as it should on either. It beats LUAS on the ability to move very large numbers in single trains and in the ability (and efficiency) of varying train size to meet demand.

[Thomas J Stamp]

We have been actually invited in the past by IE to make submissions before the public consultations regarding the timetable - there was a changed attitude within the company regarding customer consultation about 8 years ago as some of the long time managers left and were replaced with some with a more UK style customer service outlook. Another example off the top of my head was the testing of the IE smart cards by members before the public.

Weather it is window dressing or not is for others to decide, all we can do is make the submission. There was a time when IE simply wouldn't accept that we existed at all and blanked us (for a few reasons, some of them odd) and there was a time when they set up their own user groups to compete with us (where you filled out a form for a prize) but they're all gone and we're still here and we still have meetings with them (like railfuture does in the UK)

We could probably do with a passenger focus type organisation and for a while back in 2007 there was a hint or two that one was to be set up (and if there is privatisation of CIE it undoubtedly would happen then).

[Jamie2k9]

Interesting what you saw about your past relationship and now.

Got an email today to join "Customer Feedback Panel" and they will conduct research/focus groups on issues what matter to people on specific routes etc.

They allege its will help shape IE future and for your voice to be heard and shape future IE services.

I'm not so optimistic about the level of success it will achieve!

Anyone else asked?
_____

I think putting consultations here before public is a good idea and they should revisit it.

[James Howard]

I got an invite and filled out the form. I'm wondering where they got my email address. They have me from complaints forms, from Taxsaver and from an application for the abandoned passenger focus group.

It might be a sign of things changing. I reckon they've had a bit of a shock at the level of opposition to the 10 minute DART timetable.

[Mark Gleeson]

I think just about everyone signed up to the newsletter got the hit