Fare Determinations

[jacko]

Any word on when the annual fare determinations are being published

Normally in October

[Traincustomer]

Given that this year's determinations were published this day last year I'd say their publication is imminent.

The 2014 determinations were published on 23rd October 2013.

[berneyarms]

They've published them on the Friday of the bank holiday weekend on at least one previous occasion - surprised they didn't try that trick again (it minimises the bad publicity).

Perhaps that's a good omen in terms of what the fare changes are going to be!

[Jamie2k9]

Perhaps they are waiting for Irish Rail to submit the bill which trade unions will land them in the next few weeks :rolleyes:

[Mark Gleeson]

There is the issue of allocation of 28 million extra PSO funding

Some is for extra DART services and the Kildare - Grand Canal Dock service

Leap has a impact here as well as the weekly cap has set a upper limit of 2080 euro per year, as a result the Rail/Luas/Bus annual actually went down last fare determination

[Kilocharlie]

There is the issue of allocation of 28 million extra PSO funding

Some is for extra DART services and the Kildare - Grand Canal Dock service

Leap has a impact here as well as the weekly cap has set a upper limit of 2080 euro per year, as a result the Rail/Luas/Bus annual actually went down last fare determination

2016 Annual (jan-dec) is the same cost as 2015 (my employer only does jan-dec). No reductions though for point-to-point IR or the expensive Luas/145 add-on at 385. (All of LUAS is an extra 220 on a DB ticket).

Question: If the Kildare-GCD service is established in 2016, would the Kildare-Huston ticket cover it? Can't see this happening as it would under-cut the LUAS/145 addon.

[Mark Gleeson]

This is something that will need to be worked out.

As it stands today there is a fare code for Hazelhatch Grand Canal Dock in the system

The fare matrix considers Heuston and Connolly to be 0 distance apart, but Kildare Grand Canal Dock is the next fare zone up from Kildare Heuston so you would pay more (D vs E).

Ticket is only valid for the station pair purchased so while Kildare Pearse is the same fare as Kildare Heuston, the ticket must be Kildare Pearse (which can of course be used Heuston Kildare also)

This is going to cause a lot of pain with the ticketing system as it assumes any trip between Heuston and Connolly needs 90/Luas

[Kilocharlie]

This is something that will need to be worked out.

As it stands today there is a fare code for Hazelhatch Grand Canal Dock in the system

The fare matrix considers Heuston and Connolly to be 0 distance apart, but Kildare Grand Canal Dock is the next fare zone up from Kildare Heuston so you would pay more (D vs E).

Ticket is only valid for the station pair purchased so while Kildare Pearse is the same fare as Kildare Heuston, the ticket must be Kildare Pearse (which can of course be used Heuston Kildare also)

This is going to cause a lot of pain with the ticketing system as it assumes any trip between Heuston and Connolly needs 90/Luas

This could get quite messy.

For example, you could order Kildare-Pearse for 2440 which at present must include LUAS/90/145. But if you only want to go to the City Centre, it's an extra 385 euro. Doesn't make sense.
On IE site, Kildare-Heuston is an E.

[James Howard]

The inherent flaw in all of this is the stupid assumption that it matters what mode of transport you take. All fares should just be from point A to point B or using a zone system and it really shouldn't matter how you get there. OK, an intercity train should probably be more expensive than an intercity bus as it is more comfortable (if they don't decide to use commuter rolling stock), but aside from that it doesn't matter to most people whether they stand on a Dublin Bus or a DART.

The public transport system would work a lot better for everyone for no real extra cost if you could for example, take a train from Sligo to Dublin and then return on a bus after the last train using the return half of your train ticket. If the whole thing is mostly being funded by the NTA why should it matter?

It will get even sillier in Dublin when cross-city Luas opens. It would be a lot more convenient for many people to get off the train at Broombridge and take a tram to O'Connell Street or Stephen's Green rather than walking across from Connolly or Docklands but the utility of the network will be degraded by stupid pricing.

The media seem to think that leap has sorted all of this intermodal mess but it hasn't - it's just made it more convenient to pay for. The underlying pricing mess is still there.

[berneyarms]

The inherent flaw in all of this is the stupid assumption that it matters what mode of transport you take. All fares should just be from point A to point B or using a zone system and it really shouldn't matter how you get there. OK, an intercity train should probably be more expensive than an intercity bus as it is more comfortable (if they don't decide to use commuter rolling stock), but aside from that it doesn't matter to most people whether they stand on a Dublin Bus or a DART.

The public transport system would work a lot better for everyone for no real extra cost if you could for example, take a train from Sligo to Dublin and then return on a bus after the last train using the return half of your train ticket. If the whole thing is mostly being funded by the NTA why should it matter?

It will get even sillier in Dublin when cross-city Luas opens. It would be a lot more convenient for many people to get off the train at Broombridge and take a tram to O'Connell Street or Stephen's Green rather than walking across from Connolly or Docklands but the utility of the network will be degraded by stupid pricing.

The media seem to think that leap has sorted all of this intermodal mess but it hasn't - it's just made it more convenient to pay for. The underlying pricing mess is still there.

It really boils down to a funding issue - and who keeps the fare box revenue.

Until that problem is sorted and the operators receive a fair payment for their services, I can see this problem continuing.

Only then could I see a move to properly integrated tickets.

[berneyarms]

Fare determinations are now live:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/public-transport-fares-determinations-for-2016/

[Jamie2k9]

So IE requested an increase on Waterford for example of 1.7% yet the NTA granted 1.9%, why are they allowed to grant a higher rate?

I also note the plans to merge both economy fares yet I expect service levels will not match those of economy 1 so in future why will I be paying for substandard service when those in economy 1 will be paying more or more and current economy 2 will be getting nothing in return.

Today IE managed to rack up a whopping 245+ minutes worth of delays on Waterford services across 9 scheduled services because of a major lack of infrastructure. As I was told this is "modern day Irish Rail" and that was from IE members themselves, shocking mess because of lack of loops and/or signal blocks in place.

There is the issue of allocation of 28 million extra PSO funding

Some is for extra DART services and the Kildare - Grand Canal Dock service

Leap has a impact here as well as the weekly cap has set a upper limit of 2080 euro per year, as a result the Rail/Luas/Bus annual actually went down last fare determination

Is DART not stand alone, I am totally against increasing service if it will never be viable especially with the population density in the Dublin area.

Have they been given any extra for general infrastructure works?

[Inniskeen]

Apart from some tweaking at the peak period (mainly longer trains), the DART service doesn't require additional frequency especially given that the infrastructure doesn't exist to support it without negatively impacting other services and unnecessarily increasing congestion.

[Jamie2k9]

Apart from some tweaking at the peak period (mainly longer trains), the DART service doesn't require additional frequency especially given that the infrastructure doesn't exist to support it without negatively impacting other services and unnecessarily increasing congestion.

Like the flop of the Cork Express and actual increased time the 05.50 service to 2h40m+ the majority of the week and all the other disruption it caused, Irish Rail know best....

Suppose we will see the mess they produce in the next few weeks via the draft schedule not that they actually listen to feedback just gives an excuse to apply the changes and claim the public are happy.

[Traincustomer]

Today IE managed to rack up a whopping 245+ minutes worth of delays on Waterford services across 9 scheduled services because of a major lack of infrastructure. As I was told this is "modern day Irish Rail" and that was from IE members themselves, shocking mess because of lack of loops and/or signal blocks in place.

Was there a freight train failure or the like that caused a sixth of a full day to be lost in delays?

"modern day Irish Rail"? It comes across to me as very regressive.

[Jamie2k9]

Was there a freight train failure or the like that caused a sixth of a full day to be lost in delays?

"modern day Irish Rail"? It comes across to me as very regressive.

One mechanical fault at Heuston of all places, now 20 mins out of the total delay can be put down to freight service but the rest is knock on.

13.15 - Failed in Heuston and (2*3 set) replaced by 5 coach +30-35 minute departure

13.05 - +10 at Athy to cross delayed 13.15 (usually Carlow) +10 at Heuston

14.50 - +30 minutes at Ballyhale, made up 12 or so (10 minute stop at Carlow usually). +20 at Heuston

15.10 - +15 at Carlow normally cross at 16.08 with 14.50). +20 if not bit more at Waterford

16.00 - +19 at Lavistown to cross with delayed 15.10. +15 at Heuston

16.15 - +5 at Cherryville (14.50 caused that), arrived Athy
17.00, departed 17.20, Muine Bheag +9 signal check, Lavistown Loop +4 signal check, few miles further level crossing issue +5, got clearance by the time we reached Ballyhale only because of the level crossing fault would of had +10 signal check if had a clear run, only changed as he was about to stop. +35 at Waterford

The freight run from Muine Bheag on words is responsible for this however we were 13 minutes later through the station than normal (23 if we didn't take account of a standard 10+ to 16.00). If they didn't run it couldn't arrive in Waterford until around 21.30 (+3 hours) so a catch 22 for them as extra hours pay likely for gate keepers etc.

16.40 Delayed 10 minutes at Cherrville (16.00 caused that), delayed around 40-45 minutes at Ballyale (18.25 out of Waterford) +40-45 at Waterford

17.35 Delayed 15 departing (14.50 no driver/engines not even started/boarded in darkness)+20 minutes at Kilkenny (18.25 out of Waterford) +30 at Waterford

18.25 Departed around 40-45 minutes late, had to wait for 16.15 to arrive/depart and shunt another unit into station and board. +40 at Heuston

18.35 Delayed 20 minutes at Muine Bheag awaiting 18.25 +15 at Waterford
____
Major issues are:
16.40 holds the 17.00 to Cork/17.05 to Tralee +5/6 yesterday, some weeks they allow 16.15 clear to Carlow and then allow 16.00 up but that requires Cork and/or Tralee loop in Kildare and that adds around 8-9 minute to those so that rarely happens (probally 1 in 4 Fridays). Allowing 16.15 on works well for scheduling however you then have connections from 16.00 and the Cork/Tralee issue.

16.15 scheduled in Waterford 18.10, Freight arrives around 18.25/30, 18.25 departs as soon as freight enters the station.

More less 3 sections of line which require at least 15 minutes to clear (Muine Bheag-Lavistown), (Lavistown-Ballyhale), (Ballyhale-Waterford)

As I said before crossing passenger services in Kilkenny adds around 5 more minutes to all services which cross there while not overly relevant here there is essentially no crossing point between Muine Bheag and Waterford (even station loop gone though not used) which if you are going via Kilkenny you have a block time of around 40 minutes. It was possible to hold freight on the Lavistown loop before the 16.15 which would allow a delay of 90 minutes if things when route (around 20.10 in Waterford) but that's not possible.

Any delay south of Muine Bheag is next to impossible to return any sort of normal schedule, if you look at the records its all services which cross at Kilkenny/Ballyhaule cause major impacts but any services further North recover schedules in a timely manor 13.05/13.15 for example. 10.15/11.00 crossing at Kilkenny has spend easily the majority of the year delaying both services.

14.50/15.10/16.00/16.15/16.40/18.25 are delayed every single Friday, 5/10 minutes of a delay on any of those services means remainder of the day will see delays.

A new timetable can't do a lot to improve things, IE are unlikely to address any of the problem south of Muine Bheag as cost will be big. If I was a betting person we could see the easy option taken and one of the 16.00/16.15 services removed despite them been heavily used/ or turned in all stopping services which defeats the purpose of them.

There was no TSR's or low rail adhesion so iE can't use them as an excuses, if anything they would of make the problems worse and I really don't want to see the solution that Galway services received and that was 10-20 minutes extra per service to solve the problem or at least it did in IE's minds.

I believe according to IE twitter last Friday the 13.15 had the same delay ex Heuston but they managed to find a replacement 2*3 set, not sure how Waterford-Limerick J operated at 16.25 as there was no trains or if IE made a set available to operate the return 18.45 service. The freight is only a small issue in the grand scheme of things so removing that won't do a lot so why bother.

As for the modern comment it's 100% accurate and I expect if IE could they would remove loops than ever contemplate adding them.

I know it's completely off topic under "Fare Determinations" but I'm sure it will catch IE's eye's at some point so take note :mad:

Quiet a day, you would think the line was blocked for a long period of time but it wasn't.

[Traincustomer]

That's an interesting and detailed punctuality log/analysis.

Out of interest is there a crossover at Dunkitt ? (where the Limerick line diverges) such that, if required, a Waterford-Dublin train could pass a Dublin-Waterford train whilst both are in motion on those last few kilometres between Dunkitt and Plunkett.

Offhand I can't remember seeing trains passing in that section but perhaps the signalling doesn't allow it.

[Jamie2k9]

That's an interesting and detailed punctuality log/analysis.

Out of interest is there a crossover at Dunkitt ? (where the Limerick line diverges) such that, if required, a Waterford-Dublin train could pass a Dublin-Waterford train whilst both are in motion on those last few kilometres between Dunkitt and Plunkett.

Offhand I can't remember seeing trains passing in that section but perhaps the signalling doesn't allow it.

Before the rock fall between Central and West trains arrived and departed on different lines with points at either end so it was possible for a service to leave the main platform and allow an incoming service arrive. I have only saw it used two or three times but it was handy.

[dowlingm]

That's an interesting and detailed punctuality log/analysis.

Out of interest is there a crossover at Dunkitt ? (where the Limerick line diverges) such that, if required, a Waterford-Dublin train could pass a Dublin-Waterford train whilst both are in motion on those last few kilometres between Dunkitt and Plunkettnope. You'd have to have an ETS cabin there rather than Waterford West for the section to Carrick-on-Suir. Maybe one day Clonmel will get an Alan Kelly into government and some dosh will be found for miniCTC :rolleyes:

[Inniskeen]

Actually all you need is a crossover remotely controlled from Waterford West togetger with appropriate signsls. ETS can stay where it is.

[Jamie2k9]

Would be useless in Waterford to have loop 99% of the time, would settle for the second bay platform to be reopened.

North or ideally south of Lavistown would be more appreciate to have one if any consideration was given.

[ACustomer]

Is the layout at Waterford West now so restricted that there is no way to cross 2 passenger trains at the West cabin? Surely just an extra crossover near W West would allow this. At present if a train departs the sole passenger platform for Kilkenny, the first crossing place seems to be Ballyhale, 15 miles away. Track simplification to a ridiculous degree if true.

[Jamie2k9]

Is the layout at Waterford West now so restricted that there is no way to cross 2 passenger trains at the West cabin? Surely just an extra crossover near W West would allow this. At present if a train departs the sole passenger platform for Kilkenny, the first crossing place seems to be Ballyhale, 15 miles away. Track simplification to a ridiculous degree if true.

Yes.

The station is more less Dublin line into current platform, one set of points to access station yard and Belview followed by another set of points to access Limerick J line at Waterford West.

All trains staying overnight in Waterford/must move to allow another service in must drive beyond Waterford West Cabin and then drivers must switch sides and enter the station year/platform again.

As I say a crossing in Waterford would make shunting moments easier but not do a lot of passenger schedules where as another crossing after Ballyhale would.

Waterford-Ballyhale - 15.6 miles
Ballyhale-Kilkenny - 14.81 miles*
Muine Bheag-Kikenny - 14.86 miles*
* - Final 3 miles will require clearance of 5 minutes between each service running on that section.

The other loops on the line are 10/11/12 miles however they have higher speeds which offset distance.

[dowlingm]

Actually all you need is a crossover remotely controlled from Waterford West togetger with appropriate signsls. ETS can stay where it is.that's interesting - had considered a crossover at Dunkitt but thought the ETS issue a showstopper. Is there a practical distance limit between the ETS token being received and the start of the section it controls?

[Inniskeen]

No technical limit at all really, you just can't enter the single line without the token and the signals protecting the single line would be interlocked in such a way that they coiuldn't be cleared without the token having been released at the signal box controlling entry from the applicable end.

That was the arrangement at Waterford in respect of the Barrow Bridge/Wellington Bridge section of the line - you needed the token to proceed east of the signals protecting the Barrow Bridge but trains to/from Belview needed no token as the that area was within the Waterford station area of control. The ETS instrument was in Waterford Central. Yo similarly had Mallow for Killarney Junction, Drogheda for Platin and various others from time to time.

[dowlingm]

Ah, should have remembered Belview worked like that. Thanks for the explanation!

[Mark Gleeson]

Far too much thread drift here.