Latest position on the interconnector [Archive]

ThomasJ

22-09-2015, 14:13

RTE take on it :confused:
http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0922/729525-dart-underground/

The Government has decided not to go ahead with the DART Underground, however there are plans to extend the DART to Balbriggan by 2022.

Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe said he reviewed the business case for DART Underground and recommended to Cabinet that the tunnel as currently designed does not meet current transport needs.

The underground system would have cost €3bn.

The minister said plans to extend the DART to Balbriggan will be in the forthcoming Capital Plan, as well as electrification of lines into Dublin.

ThomasJ

22-09-2015, 14:20

Business case can be found here
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/lower-cost-re-design-of-dart-underground-project-proposed/

Mark Gleeson

22-09-2015, 14:39

No indication of any funding for DART to Balbriggan, its not in any of the statements so far issued.

Other journalists present do not recall this during the questioning of the minister

Jamie2k9

22-09-2015, 15:06

Only reason for the statement today is Irish Rail needed to know by end of business today to be able to serve CPO notices before the 24th

What sort of time frame will be on those now?

ThomasJ

22-09-2015, 15:25

The business plan from the NTA I've linked above contain plans (if the dart expansion plan goes ahead for

Will contain the following services

- Drogheda Inchicore (DART)
- Balbriggan Hazelhatch (DART)
- Clongriffin Hazelhatch (DART)

- Dundalk GCD (Commuter)*
Dundalk trains will no longer stop at portmarnock or howth junction

- Howth Howth Junction (DART shuttle)

- Maynooth Bray (DART)
- Maynooth Greystones (DART)
- Maynooth GCD (Commuter)
- Longford GCD (Commuter)
- M3 Parkway Clonsilla (Commuter shuttle)

- Newbridge Heuston* (Commuter)
- Portlaoise Heuston* (Commuter)
* both these services will no longer stop between Heuston and Hazelhatch

Both intercity and ESE services will not change from these plans

Jamie2k9

22-09-2015, 15:45

No indication of any funding for DART to Balbriggan, its not in any of the statements so far issued.

From RTE

The minister said plans to extend the DART to Balbriggan will be in the forthcoming Capital Plan, as well as electrification of lines into Dublin.

2022 has been set as a timeline for the completion of the DART to Balbriggan.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0922/729525-dart-underground/

ThomasJ

22-09-2015, 15:52

Not just Balbriggan see my post above about proposed services from the NTA

Mark Gleeson

22-09-2015, 17:03

The documentation isn't relevant its what approved and that comes next week it appears.

So far there is no funding beyond that committed to the Phoenix Park tunnel

ACustomer

23-09-2015, 19:32

The NTA business case documentation reveals some stunning incompetence:

First, they consider the entire DART extension project, including the Underground part, as well as electrification to Maynooth, Balbriggan and associated rolling stock and maintenance costs. This yields a favourable ratio of costs to benefits of 1.4 to 1. They then consider the Underground section in isolation and come up with an unfavourable C/B ratio of 0.8 to 1.

This is crazy: the underground and underground bits are clearly complementary: each could well have a C/B ratio of <1, but taken together they would come out with a favourable evaluation . Considering the Underground bit on its own is nonsense: only a madman would want to build a tunnel from Inchicore to East Wall with no other supporting investments. The whole thing seems to be an exercise trying to weasel out of Dart Underground by constructing a straw man in the form of a stand-alone tunnel and surprise, surprise its not viable!

Other bits are just as bad. There are proposals for cheaper versions of Dart Underground. One would commence tunneling at Heuston rather than Inchicore: a much earlier proposal which was dropped, for very good technical and operational reasons as anyone familiar with the Heuston-Islandbridge rail layout would appreciate. Other versions include ending the Underground from Heuston at Pearse, so there would still be enormous tunneling costs with minimal extra connectivity, a truly daft suggestion.

I have seldom seen such an incompetent piece of work. Needless to say the media have proved to be useless a spotting the flaws in what has to be one of the worst transport documents ever produced.

Jamie2k9

23-09-2015, 22:40

Worst of all if media reports today are correct MN appear's to be considered, I guess the tunneling will be really cheap :rolleyes:

comcor

24-09-2015, 11:06

I started my career in the consultancy business and I remember the first time I ever wrote a strategy document for a government body. I went and researched my subject area in depth; I looked at what was being done in other countries and what was regarded as best practice. I presented a draft to the head of the body for review and realised he wasn't happy. At first I doubted the quality of my work, but it became rapidly clear that what he wasn't happy about was my conclusions. What I hadn't realised was my remit was actually to produce a document that backed up a decision that had already been made.

We see all sorts of bizarre documents emerge that apparently ignore the blindingly obvious.

In the rail area, my favourite was the one a few years back that looked at proposed reopenings and concluded that Athenry-Tuam was the best option (needless to say none of the options actually got built). This was largely because of two factors; one was the lack of road competition and the other was because Tuam was designated as a hub in the National Spatial Strategy. Of course this ignored that there was a motorway planned but not built on the route and that the selection of hubs itself didn't show any real logic (e.g. Port Laoise, which was much larger and located on a critical point in the country's communication infrastructure was not a hub). So even though it was ranked 4 of 8 for population served and 6 of 8 for public transport competition, it jumped to the top of the list .

There were other joys in that report, like only looking at the population at one end of the line, so the fact that Tuam would be linked to a junction at Athenry, while Youghal would link to the large city of Cork didn't matter.

IIRC When they looked at possible lines for closure, they only looked at population on the line and ignored that the ferryport in Rosslare could provide a source of passengers for the South Wexford line and also ignored that the terminus could be switched to Wexford, providing for far more passengers. Mind you, it still concluded that Limerick-Ballybrophy was a stronger candidate for closure and we all know which one actually closed.

ACustomer

24-09-2015, 14:45

comcor, you are so right. Far too many Irish public servants are incapable of deciding what to have for lunch without having a "consultant" to ratify things.

Its the job of journalists and opposition politicians to tear to shreds incompetent documents like the one under discussion. What are the chances of an intelligent hatchet job?

Virtually zilch.

Thomas J Stamp

24-09-2015, 15:10

if the case for DART underground was there 4 years ago, it is there today.

from my few journeys to dublin these days I have noticed the tower cranes are coming back, there are more people about, and the trains/luas are more packed.

given that the recovery is mostly based in dublin right now to do anything which can hamper that recovery is astoundingly short sighted.

It is not as if there is NO money to get things started (and that is all that is needed), the Government is going to blast out €1.5 billion next month and plans to do the same this time next year - theres your DART underground paid for in full.

Of course, politically they cannot do that, but a small part of that €1.5 billion would have tided this over. As it is, it is the failure to link the Luas again. It will have to happen, because it must happen, and now when it does it will cost a lot more than €3 billion.

James Howard

24-09-2015, 17:12

This situation is beyond a joke at this point. It is utterly absurd for the Government to be passing out tax cuts at this point in the recovery when we've gone five years without any significant infrastructure investment. Dublin and Lisbon are almost exactly the same population - is it a co-incidence that the WebSummit is just buggering off to the city with a proper transport infrastructure?

I really dread to think what state the city is going to be in after a couple more years of growth. I seriously think we can forget about the further development of the "Silicon Docks" area given how difficult it is to get in and out of the eastern side of the city centre by any means other than rail. With the proposed closure to traffic of parts of the quays it will become all but impossible to access the eastern city centre by car from the west.

While we might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome of the PPT opening to traffic, I have serious doubts about Irish Rail's ability to keep the loop line rolling at 20 trains each way per hour - new signalling system or not.

ACustomer

24-09-2015, 22:04

James Howard: actually one of the points made in the documents under discussion here is an admission that the capacity of the Loop Line following resignalling will effectively be more like 15 to 17 TPH rather than the promised 20. This apparently is because of (a) limitations arising from turnback activity at GCD and (b) the plethora of level crossings between Lansdowne Road and Merrion which would be a constraint even in the absence of turnbacks.

Jamie2k9

24-09-2015, 23:25

Mark Gleeson

25-09-2015, 04:46

Lisbon also has a metro to its Airport :D

We have a major infrastructure deficit and we are going to lose much bigger fish than the Web Summit in years to come

We have no office space in the city left
We have no houses or apartments

Stacks of zoned green land along the railway lines, hello Adamstown, Kishogue but since the rail service is crap they are not developed

ACustomer

25-09-2015, 08:18

Mark: I doubt that the Lisbon Airport Metro connection has all that much direct relevance for Dublin.

The Airport Metro connects into a fairly comprehensive Metro system, and is not just an isolated line to the equivalent of Stephens Green. And because Lisbon is very high density, it is suited to a heavy Metro system in a way that low-density Dublin will never be.

Furthermore the link to Lisbon Airport involved a short 3-station section of about 3 km to the Airport, which is virtually in the city suburbs anyhow, and the short connection was straight to the nearby mainline train station (Oriente).

But basically you are right to say that Dublin's public transport is terrible. And what is worse it is truly terrible when comparing it with the poorest country in Western Europe (Portugal). Comparisons with other cities can be problematic, but in terms of overall quality of service and lack of consistent planning Dublin comes out badly in comparison with just about everywhere in Europe

Mark Gleeson

25-09-2015, 09:31

I think we are down to Prague as being the nearest capital without a rail connection to its airport (Ok Bern doesn't but Bern is a bit of a fudge). Its embarrassing.

There is no EU money for metro to Airport, there is for heavy rail under EU TEN.

I've been in touch with a engineer who was involved in the development of the original interconnector concept. Furious doesn't describe it. The business case fudge is a classic game of make the numbers look bad by being selective.

James Howard

25-09-2015, 10:28

It sounds as if the potential solution here would be quite similar to Lisbon. The idea of a airport spur or a mainline reroute to go through the airport would work fine with the interconnector in place.

We are all too much in love with our cars in Ireland. We can't see the value in paying a bit a bit more tax so that we could get by without the need for a family to own two cars. When I lived in Dublin, by far the most viable way to make the 30 km daily round-trip from Lucan into work was by bicycle. This is still the case and is likely to be the case for at least the next 15 years. And that was a direct link.

Here is an amazing journey time for a student from just beyond the western edge of the city. Hazelhatch to Sydney Parade typically takes just under 2 hours. Using Google maps, the same journey takes 1 hour 15 minutes to cycle the 23 km. This is just an absurd journey from a town so close to the city to the station for the city's biggest university. How much economic damage is being done by the lack of a working transport system in the city?

Everyone thinks I'm made to commute from Edgeworthstown to Dublin but aside from the absurdly early last train, it is a far more viable commute than that available for a lot of people on the Kildare line. I suppose that the PPT should help that dramatically but it is going to make the morning schedule very brittle.

The airport issue is a bit of red herring in ways. Aside from the people who work there, most people take a trip to work a lot more often than a trip to the airport so the lack of a railway link is more of an embarrassment to the country than a practical problem. It is unlikely that an airport train would be any quicker than the bus services that use the port tunnel in any case and for people travelling to the West and North, Bus Eireann provide an excellent service from the airport.

Inniskeen

25-09-2015, 16:00

James, how does it take two hours to get from Hazelhatch to Sydney Parade - say 20 to 30 minutes to Heuston, 15 minutes Luas to Abbey Street, 12 minutes train Tara Street to Sydney Parade, 20 minutes walking and waiting, at most an hour and seventeen minutes.

Journey times by rail in the Dublin area are slow and will remain so until smarter operating are adopted and some serious infrastructural investment takes place.

While DARTunderground would shorten some journeys off the Kildare line, the least used of the four main routes into Dublin, many other passenger particularly on the northern line, would face significantly increased journey times and multiple changes.

James Howard

25-09-2015, 16:07

That's what I got on google maps but maybe it was being a bit mad. In any case, that still leaves you with a 20 minute walk to the UCD (I picked UCD as a popular destination for public transport) so the end-to-end journey isn't so different.

ACustomer

25-09-2015, 23:29

Jamie2k9

26-09-2015, 00:26

Inniskeen: Dart Underground would not only shorten journeys from the Kildare line: it would enable a huge potential new housing area in the Adamstown/Kishogue/Clondalkin area to expand and have quality access to the city. It would also (indirectly) be a solution to some of the bottleneck problems at the North end of Connolly.

A big reason why the Kildare line is the least used of the 4 main commuter routes are that there is so much unbuilt potential development land within 10 miles of Heuston crying out for development with the present housing shortage. Dart underground would make this area much more attractive for development.

It would do nothing of the sort, Inniskeen raised this before and it remains very real issue. There is going to be a 10 minute DART service south of Howth Junction (6 per hour) before you consider the additional Balbriggan services which will be required lets say a 15 minute service (4 per hour) while there will likely be demand for increase commuter services to Drogheda/Dundalk in the coming years and this would need to be express from Balbriggan to ensure competitiveness while at the same tine I expect we will see a 2 hourly service to Belfast (perhaps hourly) at some point. This does not include the possible airport link just add another 4 services per hour.

The Northern Line needs something major in the coming years and it's probally the biggest cash cow for Irish Rail and there has not been a shred of forward planning. Dart Underground does nothing worth while for it. Malahide heading south needs 2 more tracks.

The KRP has nothing to do with lack of housing development. With services to Heuston and now the PPT it is a reasonable service standard. If there was some additional underground lines in Dublin City Center (Spencer Dock-Pearse/GCD) electrifying PPT along with Hazelathch/Maynooth could be a decent solution for a long while and a reasonable cost something I suspect the NTA may be thinking by stopping DU.

Is there really a need for a second tunnel to Heuston?

Thomas J Stamp

29-09-2015, 12:08

people like brands.

bring DART to the hatch and you will see it packed, like the Luas. coming in on the 4 tracks all I can see are thousands of acres of land which can and should be developed and would be if there was DART from there right into the heart of the citu using DART underground.

People wouldnt have to resort to portarlington, portlaoise, templemore or thurles to live and commute to the city - where they must be confind to work within a short bus/luas trip from the terminal station in any event. They could live and have a better life in the area from adamstown in.

DART underground also opens up employment possibilities for those further out in mnay different parts of the city rather than a narrow corridoor from Heuston to Connolly. It also links up everything.

but in order to promise something new you have to dump something. So we have Metro North/Airport announced for the second time in 10 years and this is supposed to be progress.

I'm in my mid 40's and i am starting to think i will be retired before any of this is built.

Jamie2k9

29-09-2015, 15:31

1 - Metro North (2021-2026) - Stand by for the third announcement for election in 2021.
2 - DART to Balbriggan (2022) - No date in the doc issued
3 - New CTC center
4 - Funding for Ongoing maintenance to ensure the safety
and efficiency of the rail network
5 - Design/Planning for DART to Hazelhatch/Maynooth

Staggering that almost 50% more will be spent on roads per year than public transport.

Only other part which may be of interest:
In advance of the Mid Term Review, the Government will commission a
feasibility study to examine options for expanding
freight transport on the railways.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/ncip-final-master-for-print.pdf

So in a nutshell not a single penny been invested to improve any intercity routes!

Ronald Binge

30-09-2015, 12:24

What causes this fudging and binning of projects is simply that farmers, estate agents and those who make money out of road construction have the ear of the Permanent Government.

It is a lot easier to run with five year lead time projects like motorway building that make money for the people mentioned above, than it is to push through any rail project. Rail projects justify themselves when spatial planning concentrates on high density, urban development for an expanding population.

The dirty secret is that any rural Irish town could be redeveloped for an expanding population but it doesn't suit Official Ireland to plan ahead for a population of ten million plus and the sustainable economy that would by necessity result from that.

It is a lot easier to run the place with a periodically shrinking population through death and emigration, because those who have the ear of the Civil Service and most politicians are comfortable enough with things as they are. Hence rural sprawl and urban congestion. Sure its part of what we are :rolleyes:

Colm Moore

30-09-2015, 13:02

It is a lot easier to run the place with a periodically shrinking population through death and emigration, because those who have the ear of the Civil Service and most politicians are comfortable enough with things as they are. Hence rural sprawl and urban congestion. Sure its part of what we are :rolleyes:While I concur with a lot of what you are saying, the reality is that there are 50% more people in the Republic now compared to 1970. Despite the recession, the population has continued to grow.

James Howard

30-09-2015, 17:49

Does the PPT have enough headroom for electrification? From this image it would not appear so.

http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2320823.1439913900!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

If it were possible to electrify the PPT, then possibly combined with a major re-organisation of Connolly it might be possible to have it operate as an interconnector. Given the amount of yard space in Connolly, would it not be a relatively simple matter to add a couple of platforms that could be dedicated towards terminating northern or Maynooth line services? This would enable DART frequency to be increased to the point where people wouldn't mind changing trains.

By relatively simple I mean relative to the expense of digging out a tunnel right through the city centre.

Mark Gleeson

30-09-2015, 18:12

James Howard

01-10-2015, 11:24

I'd rather see DART underground built but given that this is unlikely to start for at least 10 years, it would be a good idea to start looking at alternative options in the meantime.

For example, a major issue with public transport in Dublin is the lack of fare integration. With Luas from Broombridge, that opens up a lot of options but only if there is proper fare integration. It should not really cost a passenger any more to transfer onto Luas to get to O'Connell street than it costs to stay on the train to Connolly as it is the same distance. Proper fare integration would cost nothing and would make the entire system a lot more useful. But now they'll be adding yet another brand and operator to the mix.

But give it another couple of weeks and they'll give up on Metro north and bring back DART underground.

Inniskeen

01-10-2015, 20:45

Tunnel yes, bridge at Conyngham Rd no

Routing everything to Connolly would be a nightmare as you then would have 4 inbound routes (Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda/DART) and only one outbound

The DART underground provided separation to avoid conflicts and paired off the routes

The DART Underground/DART Expansion proposals ignore the fact that the northern line is already congested and proposes a service frequency which would be challenging to achieve on a tramway let alone a double track, mixed traffic, heavy rail route. The business case also appears to assume crush loading on trains running at 3½ minute intervals. This is only possible if every train either stops at every station or follows a signal section behind a train stopping at every station. Hence journey times from stations north of Malahide will be extended, the worse affected being Drogheda and Dundalk commuters as well as Enterprise users who will face an extension of up to 30 minutes in journey time.

Further many, if not most, of existing northern line users will be forced to make at least one change to reach their destination thus further adding to journey times and creating another dis-incentive to usage.
The effect of miserably slow journey times can be seen at south eastern line stations south of Greystones where usage has declined significantly, particularly since the introduction of the half-hourly DART services to Greystones. Last Monday after the morning peak there were no more than twenty cars in the large car park at Arklow, a good indication of light usage and probably a good predictor of future usage at outer suburban stations beyond Malahide.

As for the mooted spur from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport this makes little sense in the context of congested infrastructure as in the absence of express or semi-fast services trains would not be competitive with buses running via the port tunnel and hence be likely to attract only minimal patronage.

Eddie

01-10-2015, 23:00

The effect of miserably slow journey times can be seen at south eastern line stations south of Greystones where usage has declined significantly, particularly since the introduction of the half-hourly DART services to Greystones. Last Monday after the morning peak there were no more than twenty cars in the large car park at Arklow, a good indication of light usage and probably a good predictor of future usage at outer suburban stations beyond Malahide.

Wexford bus have probably capitalised on the infrequent services and long journey times - it would be interesting to do a survey amongst their passengers to understand the main reason why they use the bus rather than the train.

As for the mooted spur from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport this makes little sense in the context of congested infrastructure as in the absence of express or semi-fast services trains would not be competitive with buses running via the port tunnel and hence be likely to attract only minimal patronage.

It takes 15-20mins on the 747 from Custom House to the Airport, even at peak times. Metro North, with all its intermediate stops, will take longer than that. It'll be great if you happen to live along the line, though.

As an occasional user of the private bus company that shuttles between southside Dart stations and the airport, I'd be happy to switch to the train if there was one available. I imagine the journey time would be pretty much the same. However, I might revise that if the train dropped you a long way from the terminals, as buses do currently enjoy a big advantage in being able to drop you off right outside the terminal buildings.

Inniskeen

02-10-2015, 10:16

As I understand the proposal for DART to Dublin Airport, the Airport station would be some distance from the terminal buildings.

While Metro North would probably be no quicker than DART, the airport is only one stop whereas for DART the spur will depend almost exclusively on airport traffic.

Given the extraordinary time scale for the delivery of Metro North and the deferral of DART Underground there would appear to be plenty of time to review both projects together and perhaps consider a DART (or Metro) from Hazelhatch via Heuston, St Stephen's Green to Dublin Airport, Swords and Donabate. Solves the Heuston problem, relieves the northern line and leaves capacity at Grand Canal Dock for Maynooth and northern line services.

Thomas J Stamp

02-10-2015, 11:05

Where does the new Rapid Bus thing fit in with the Metro from the airport?

Surely it is almost an identical route?

dowlingm

08-10-2015, 15:58

Thomas J Stamp

14-10-2015, 15:15

(re: PPT electrification)

diesel/electric units operating GCD-P10-Hazelhatch-beyond could raise and drop their pans... wouldn't be cheap though!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Ligne-Rognac-Aix27.JPG/193px-Ligne-Rognac-Aix27.JPG
via Wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_81500

well, you can bet that whatever they will be doing, it'll be cheap!!

we are, of course, a better organisation than to drag up all of the occasions where CIE/IE have flatly stated to us that the PPT cannot be used for passenger trains. In fact more than stated, but have slated and ridiculed us for suggesting it in the first place....