[article] Phoenix Park Tunnel [Archive] - Rail Users Ireland Forum

Jamie2k9

09-03-2015, 12:09

Info from Irish Rail this morning is 4 trains in the morning/evening peak, not 4 trains an hour.

Lots of confusion need to get some timetable clarity.

Ideally they should start a 3 train an hour Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock service, simple and allows for connections into services at Hazelhatch

Can then run all the Portlaoise services non stop Hazelhatch Heuston

Not sure Hazelatch serves that needed, I think Portlaoise-Hazelhatch and onto GCD. Numbers beyond Hazelhatch cannot possibly justify such a service and then a shuttle to Heuston from Hazelhatch.

Cannot see IE going to stop all IC services at Hazelhatch.

As for the delays to Portlaoise, it happens but not overly major, perhaps better use of Sallins loop would help rather than holding. Remember the commuter service has enough timetabled in to absorb delays so expect it would be no different going to GCD.

James Howard

09-03-2015, 12:18

They should probably look at doing something similar on Maynooth after Luas BXD opens. The peak-time service would work a lot better if the local traffic between Clonsilla and Broombridge was served by Dunboyne trains only and passengers could swap between Luas, Connolly and Docklands services at Broombridge.

This would obviously require better Luas / Irish Rail fare integration which isn't terribly likely but one can dream. Hopping off a Longford train at Broombridge and transferring to a tram for Stephen's Green would be a much more attractive option than the long walk from Connolly.

We could quite quickly have something that starts looking like an integrated transport system if Irish Rail get the details right.

comcor

09-03-2015, 13:07

Are these going to stop at Platform 10 in Heuston?

Kilocharlie

09-03-2015, 13:48

That would be the intention but some trackwork would be required first as east bound trains cannot at present visit P10 and return to the correct track.

Mark Gleeson

09-03-2015, 13:57

No mention of that work anywhere which is concerning.

P10 sucks if you rely on Heuston currently, need to get the 145 terminus moved down there as a starting point.

Q2/3 2016 is optimistic, Phase 2 of the resignalling will be done by then opening the 3rd platform in Grand Canal Dock, but the Tara Street/Connolly area is unlikely to be finished

berneyarms

09-03-2015, 14:04

The plan as I understand it does include installing a crossover north of platform 10 to allow for trains bound for Grand Canal Dock to serve platform 10 and then switch tracks.

And most definitely the 145 will have to be extended up to the turning circle once more. There would still be a large volume of people leaving the train at Heuston for the immediate surrounding area and along the Quays.

shweeney

13-03-2015, 12:30

GCD is very busy in the mornings already, with the potential for 3 trains to arrive at once when the new platform is open, are there any plans to improve access routes in the station (the bridge seems to be a real bottleneck).

Mark Gleeson

13-03-2015, 12:48

GCD is a real problem alright. I have seen talk of an exit at the north end but nothing detailed.

It's currently close to being unsafe

Inniskeen

14-03-2015, 09:04

Passenger flow and platform congestion are potentially an issue at all the city centre stations to one degree or another. Pearse is the best equipped to cope with additional traffic, Tara Street is restricted both in terms of platform surface area and access. Connolly likewise can be congested, particularly in respect of platform 6 & 7 arround the access ramp.

The Phoenix Park tunnel trains will probably be modestly loaded by the time they reach Grand Canal Dock but will obviously put pressure on already unsatisfactory access arrangements.

shweeney

15-03-2015, 11:24

ThomasJ

15-03-2015, 12:44

So, has the north strand- entrance into Connolly been resolved?

At the moment we can have waits into Connolly because the track used to enter Connolly has to he shared with northbound services , has this / will this be sorted when this happens?

The last thing you want is maynooth trains stuck at glasnevin junction waiting on inbound Kildare trains, then stuck again at north strand!

ThomasJ

15-03-2015, 12:46

Northern line trains will also be terminating at GCD once the new platform is complete.

And maynooth trains I hope.

Mark Gleeson

15-03-2015, 13:17

The last thing you want is maynooth trains stuck at glasnevin junction waiting on inbound Kildare trains, then stuck again at north strand!

Not really as you have parallel movement when you have a Maynooth line Docklands service and a Park Tunnel train

ThomasJ

15-03-2015, 13:25

Ah okay.

But what about the stretch of track from drumcondra into Connolly? Will that be sorted?

berneyarms

15-03-2015, 14:18

Ah okay.

But what about the stretch of track from drumcondra into Connolly? Will that be sorted?

It will be sorted by a timetable recast and the resignalling at Connolly.

There is plenty of space to operate 4 extra trains during the peak - really this is a non-issue.

Jamie2k9

16-03-2015, 14:47

Just out of general interest, could Glassnavan junction be reconfigured to allow Drumcondra bypass access to the tunnel. Long term surly something like this would be required as service levels will increase long term. While DART underground will happen at some point, this could be needed at some stage or will both lines feeding into Connolly restrict.

I don't know the junction really well but couldn't the embankment between Sligo and tunnel line be knocked and crossovers moved West to connect both lines.

Operationally I think it could be an impotent part for Heuston services as while not overly common services get suspended through Drumcondra for various reasons so I don't think suspending Heuston services is acceptable while it may not be often.

Perhaps could benefit Heuston bypass Drumcondra and Maynooth/Sligo left as they are but Connolly could be the problem.

Jack O'Neill

16-03-2015, 22:39

Is there any talk of running Croke Park specials at least direct to Connolly?

Drumcondra would be unsuitable due to narrow platforms?

Match day extra trains to Maynooth shouldn't be affected if they could synchronise South bound specials?

ThomasJ

18-03-2015, 16:48

Yep completely agree, croke park match and concert days in drumcondra is bad enough with just maynooth passengers, imagine the chaos if Kildare passengers were thrown into the equation!

Jamie2k9

18-03-2015, 17:49

It's to costly and unnecessary to run such services IMO. The Luas does the job combined that additional drivers and costs. Additionally specials arrive in Heuston hours before matches starts and people are not going to wait at Croke Park in between. Additionally rolling stock may be required back at Heuston between for service and just adds more to costs.

If you want door to door service perhaps drive to Croke Park, oh wait not possible on match days!

dowlingm

19-03-2015, 14:59

At some point will some way of shoehorning a set of platforms onto the Broombridge-Docklands section (beside the Croke Park Hotel/cantilevered over the canal bank) not have to be faced up to (in exchange for yet another variation for the number of events), so that some services from west of Broombridge could be diverted to reduce the load on Drumcondra?

I know the residents on that side wouldn't be thrilled, but it might be parlayed into having some non-CP related services stop to/from Docklands in compensation.

Primary access could be via ramp to Jones Road bridge (assuming it can be signed off by the council to make the necessary alterations) but the trickiest bit would be how to get a second/emergency access to the southside platform.

Mark Gleeson

23-03-2015, 08:34

GCD is a real problem alright. I have seen talk of an exit at the north end but nothing detailed.

It's currently close to being unsafe

First parts of a new bridge have appeared at Grand Canal Dock

dowlingm

23-03-2015, 17:19

Was that (GCD mention) meant to be in a different thread MG?

Kilocharlie

24-03-2015, 09:45

Was that (GCD mention) meant to be in a different thread MG?

Don't think so. This thread is about Portlaoise/Kildare services using the PPT to reach GCD. Talk of Docklands/Croke Park are red herrings for 2 reasons 1) it's not possible and 2) much bigger catchment in the Connolly/Tara/Pearse/GCD area.

dowlingm

25-03-2015, 10:05

Kilocharlie, the question was whether MG had intended to post the content elsewhere since the quote embedded was not from this thread, not that GCD was OT this discussion.

Jamie2k9

26-03-2015, 00:00

Kilocharlie, the question was whether MG had intended to post the content elsewhere since the quote embedded was not from this thread, not that GCD was OT this discussion.

Post #12 of this thread/

dowlingm

27-03-2015, 17:02

Post #12 of this thread/Argh. Yes. Apologies to all.

Kilocharlie

02-10-2015, 15:14

Buried deep within NTA Business case http://nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/DART_Expansion_Programme_Revised_Business_Case_201 5.pdffor the DART Underground (or not) is a proposed service level for Kildare-GCD services in the Do Minimum Section page 121-123

In Summary for the Morning peak:
To GCD
Peak: 2 trains per hour, all stops Kildare-GCD
Peak : 1 train from Newbridge and 1 from Portlaoise to GCD
The 8-9am period would have 4 services
To Heuston Commuter
Portlaoise- Heuston - Hourly as at present
Newbrige/Kildare - Heuston - one service each
To Heuston - Intercity serving commuter stops
1 Galway- Heuston (2 trains each service different stations)
1 Waterford - Heuston
0 Limerick
1 Westport
1 Carlow and 1 Athlone as at present.

Rolling stock:
The proposal shows most of the GCD traffic as 8xDMU (I presume would be 2x29000) and the Heuston traffic as 3XICR or 6xICR. There is an oddity with one Waterford-Hueston also being 8xDMU. Question here is where are they going to get all the 8xDMU's? Maybe this depends on electrifying the Maynooth line first?

Overall a big switch from IC to Commuter and GCD taking most of the traffic.

Jamie2k9

02-10-2015, 15:35

29000 will never return to Heusotn especially with 100mph coming towards end of year between Portlaoise-Heuston.

Another doc full of rubbish from NTA, it's not as if they do much enforcement as it is what's going to change in the next few years!

I really worry about the "cursh capacity" calculations.

Mark Gleeson

02-10-2015, 19:06

2700's will....

For Kildare Dublin there is little to choose over a 29000 and a ICR on a stopping service. 29000 is faster off the line and in terms of door open/close cycle

Line speed Hazelhatch Heuston is 70mph on the slow lines/

Jamie2k9

02-10-2015, 20:53

For Kildare Dublin there is little to choose over a 29000 and a ICR on a stopping service. 29000 is faster off the line and in terms of door open/close cycle

Fair point but the volume of passengers even at peak hours isn't anything significant on the Kildare route to require dwell to be reduced.

From a passenger prospective many commuters from Nass-Portlaoise hate getting the regular Portlaoise commuter services add 2700 or whatever and you make the service worse.

The 17.20/17.55 services are prime examples of services of heavily underused services and the 17.20 could be curtailed to Hazelhatch and the 17.55 cancelled tomorrow and have minimal impact. Would imagine a curtailed 18.25 service to Hazelhatch would also see no impact on customers.

If IE did the above adjustments they could then add a 17.40 to Portlaoise (Nass first stop) and easily keep costs down as they could get away with cutting capacity on 17.25/17.30/17.35 services and remove Nass and/or Newbridge/Kildare respectively. That gives those passenger a 30 minute service between 17.10-18.10.

Easy for IE to cut costs and keep all passengers types happy but I suspect the next timetable will not see much change from current Intercity/Commuter scheduling.

It will be interesting to see how GCD services will change such passenger travel patterns and views on services and it will be a question who wins current Luas/Intercity for Nass on or GCD commuter.

Around 50-55 minutes Nass-CDG or 15 minutes Nass-Heuston. Timings based on current commuter service to Nass (average 30-35 minutes), 10 minutes to Connolly, 10 minutes to GCD and the 15 minutes to Nass is based on fully 100mph between Hazelhatch-Nass (18 minutes currently scheduled).

Kilocharlie

02-10-2015, 22:37

Jamie2k9

02-10-2015, 22:47

When the 29000s were on the Kildare route they were scheduled for as little as 44mins (2300-2344); today the same service by ICR is still scheduled for 44 mins 2310-2354! Even though the ICR can reach 100mph vs 75 for a 29k, it seems to make little difference to the all stopping schedule. The lack of top speed is compensated by better acceleration; after all the 29k was designed for stopping services.

Fair point but I suspect the current schedules can be tightened up in terms of times, not saying the previous couldn't but as a passenger which stock do you prefer?

Not sure I could deal with commuter stock on a daily commute, not sure what it is but I could handle the DART but not 26/7/8/900 rolling stock.

Kilocharlie

02-10-2015, 22:47

If IE did the above adjustments they could then add a 17.40 to Portlaoise (Nass first stop) and easily keep costs down as they could get away with cutting capacity on 17.25/17.30/17.35 services and remove Nass and/or Newbridge/Kildare respectively. That gives those passenger a 30 minute service between 17.10-18.10.

Problem with a 1740 stopping all stops after Naas is the 1800 Cork! 20mins headway is insufficient.
For example, the 1810 holds up the 1830 to Galway which often has to slow by the time it reaches Kildare. But the 1810, even though it skips 2 stops, takes a leisurely 43 mins to Kildare. But a 1740 would still be caught by the 1800 well before Portlaoise. Rule No 1: don't slow a Cork train!

Jamie2k9

02-10-2015, 23:03

Problem with a 1740 stopping all stops after Naas is the 1800 Cork! 20mins headway is insufficient.
For example, the 1810 holds up the 1830 to Galway which often has to slow by the time it reaches Kildare. But the 1810, even though it skips 2 stops, takes a leisurely 43 mins to Kildare. But a 1740 would still be caught by the 1800 well before Portlaoise. Rule No 1: don't slow a Cork train!

Will take some playing around with schedules but improvements should be possible. Limerick moves to 17.20 (10 minute gap to stopping 17.10), Galway 17.25, Waterford 17.30 and Portlaoise 17.35 (departing Newbridge by time 18.00 departures Heuston) so 20 minutes space and it should be in Portlaoise by 18.30 at latest and Cork will be 18.35 (rough etc with new speeds).

It will be tricky but it's needed, the .00 departure to Cork complicates things but be honest something IE will never change even if it was for the greater good.

There is also the option of leaving Portlaoise to Limerick only in evenings, Portarlington to Galway (some of them) and terminate at Kildare to allow Cork a clear road but the simple fact is there is demand for Nass/Newbridge/Kildare to justify there own service especially between 17-18.00 even if it's only one service per day.

bg07

03-10-2015, 09:48

2700's will....

Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?

Kilocharlie

03-10-2015, 11:17

Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?

The implication from the NTA doc is that they will need perhaps as many as 64xDMU vehicles to provide the GCD service so they will need to bring back the 2700s for a start.

More likely is that the initial GCD service will be much less ambitious and be 3xICR or even 2xDMU/4xDMU based perhaps using some 2700s. The GCD service will need more stock than is currently in service even allowing for a reduction in some IC train lengths if they are no longer stopping at the commuter stops. There no mention of funding in the GCD project for additional stock or overhauling the 2700s.

I think the NTA doc is looking into the medium term when some of the DART Expansion, such as Maynooth line electrification, has been implemented releasing a load of DMUs.

Jamie2k9

03-10-2015, 11:31

Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?

I'm sure IE would like not to bring them back but they will have no choice but to spend some cash as re instate them because numbers are growing again and they will not be able to cope in Dublin with just 2900 and ICR's won't be able to do all the work.

Until the Maynnoth line goes DART there will be no free DMU's rolling stock. Will this likely require new EMU's as well?

berneyarms

03-10-2015, 15:37

I suspect that if the 2700s are pressed back into service, that the 2800s would return to Dublin, and the 2700s reinstated on the Limerick local services.

Reinstating the remaining Mark 4 sets would also release some ICR sets as well, so there could be some rejigging of sets around the network.

I cannot see the proposed GCD service operating without trains currently in storage being pressed back into service.

Jamie2k9

03-10-2015, 16:22

Mark IV retuning will have no impact on stock available, only 2 units in the morning and peak demand is usually staggered but in the evening is where the issue is most of the time.

Returning a two car 2700 to M3 Parkway off peak would make a lot of sense. I do agree if 2700 are going to be maintained in Limerick again the its likely they would be based there but if not they unlilely to be based.

As I said already a re scheduling of Intercity can deliver additional units and we will have the Belfast 22 back as well. Will be suprised if 2700 are returned before 2018 at earliest. Guess a lot depends on growth within GDA as well as ip take on Kildare-GCD services once they comence. I fully expect IE to try 22s if passenger numbers ans availability allow.

Mark Gleeson

03-10-2015, 16:55

At least 10 2700 are returning, that not enough to cover Limerick

But it would be enough to cover Docklands, Ballina etc

James Howard

03-10-2015, 18:29

There are 12 29k cars on the Longford commuter service that we'd be glad to see the back of. It would be a lot more efficient to run the two Longford commuter services as limited stops using 22ks. One of the evening services already is. It is ridiculous to be running these trains on a service that takes almost 2 hours.

Of course they'd need to make the morning trains limited stops from Maynooth but that would be a major positive for the service.

Jamie2k9

03-10-2015, 20:01

At least 10 2700 are returning, that not enough to cover Limerick

But it would be enough to cover Docklands, Ballina etc

10 coaches/5 units or 20 coaches/10 units?

Would think the 2 2750 units are completely gone as is the one hybrid 2700 which operated with a hybrid 2600 unit. That would leave 1 other 2700 out of action if 10 units are coming back.

Mark Gleeson

03-10-2015, 20:31

10 coaches 2700 + full Mk4 fleet

Jamie2k9

03-10-2015, 21:00

10 coaches 2700 + full Mk4 fleet

Full Mark 4 fleet as in 7 of 8 sets, unless one is going to Belfast or another route it is completely unsustainable for such operations and decisions like that is why IE are making such losses.

The only Cork service which Mark 4 is currently required is the 16.00 ex Heuston/19.20 ex Cork Mon-Fri.

Even putting 4/5 Mark IV in heavy usage Mon-Thur is not sustainable when currently the 08.00 (4-ICR), 10.00 (3), 12.00 (4), 14.00 (4). The 21.00 (7) is unlikely to change because of the 05.50/06.15 services.

The 22 fleet will just be sitting doing nothing if Mark 4s are returned and costing IE more.

berneyarms

03-10-2015, 21:56

Mark IV retuning will have no impact on stock available.

I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

2 Mark 4 sets returning would potentially release 2 ICR sets during the morning peak (05:50 ex-Cork and 08:00 ex-Heuston).

That is precisely when sets are at a premium.

Rejigging rosters could then result in those ICRs displacing 29k sets elsewhere.

Jamie2k9

03-10-2015, 22:19

I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

2 Mark 4 sets returning would potentially release 2 ICR sets during the morning peak (05:50 ex-Cork and 08:00 ex-Heuston).

That is precisely when sets are at a premium.

Rejigging rosters could then result in those ICRs displacing 29k sets elsewhere.

You will not see a Mark IV departing before the 06.15 non stop service by an ICR as already two ICR's are on top of one another by Limerick Junction, add several minutes to stopping/starting and you will be looking at an 05.40 departure to be safe. You then have the the fact another additional Heuston-Cork required to place the ICR for the 06.15 service as the 21.00 currently does both 05.50/06.15. Added that I would expect 200 on a good day for the 05.50 and a Mark IV is 450+ seats.

Not sure what you are getting at in terms of the 08.00 ex Heuston which is operated by a set which brings a full load of commuters to Heuston before that, by the time that is re dispatched for a second commuter run your inbound peak is gone.

A good few Heusotn arrivals in the mornings between 07.30-10.00 are sent with passengers or empty to Portlaosei so to suggest there is a shortage is just completely un true. Very easy to change rosters if demand was that stretched.

IE will not remove any 2900 from Rosslare/Longford because of heavy loading closer to Dublin and I really can see either route getting reduced stopping services as they will likely be crawling anyway with DART and Maynooth.

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

I could easily come up with a quick calculation of how many 22's are used during morning/evening peak and its not near 63 units in service. The only time IE are under pressure with 22's is Fridays because of demand and Sundays because of where sets are placed from a Mon-Sat working.

berneyarms

04-10-2015, 06:21

You will not see a Mark IV departing before the 06.15 non stop service by an ICR as already two ICR's are on top of one another by Limerick Junction, add several minutes to stopping/starting and you will be looking at an 05.40 departure to be safe. You then have the the fact another additional Heuston-Cork required to place the ICR for the 06.15 service as the 21.00 currently does both 05.50/06.15. Added that I would expect 200 on a good day for the 05.50 and a Mark IV is 450+ seats.

Not sure what you are getting at in terms of the 08.00 ex Heuston which is operated by a set which brings a full load of commuters to Heuston before that, by the time that is re dispatched for a second commuter run your inbound peak is gone.

A good few Heusotn arrivals in the mornings between 07.30-10.00 are sent with passengers or empty to Portlaosei so to suggest there is a shortage is just completely un true. Very easy to change rosters if demand was that stretched.

IE will not remove any 2900 from Rosslare/Longford because of heavy loading closer to Dublin and I really can see either route getting reduced stopping services as they will likely be crawling anyway with DART and Maynooth.

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

I could easily come up with a quick calculation of how many 22's are used during morning/evening peak and its not near 63 units in service. The only time IE are under pressure with 22's is Fridays because of demand and Sundays because of where sets are placed from a Mon-Sat working.

My point about the 08:00 Heuston/Cork is that perhaps the Mark 4 set could operate the inbound commuter service too?

Things can change and may have to in order to facilitate the new GCD services.

I'm looking at it with a completely open mind - and on that basis it is perfectly possible that two ICR sets would be released by returning two Mark 4 sets.

Just because you don't think it will work doesn't mean it won't happen.

If necessary a 20:00 service from Dublin to Cork could be added to operate the 06:15 the next morning.

There are plenty of options available.

The sets going to Portlaoise are either going for servicing or are operating the hourly stopping service - are you suggesting cancelling both of those?

Inniskeen

04-10-2015, 09:41

Another problem with moving 22 to Connolly is the light usage they would receive on routes from Longford/Rossalre as they are not really suitable to Maynooth/Northen Commuter (I know some operate) where as at Heuston they are available for any departure all day.

The 22ks are ideally suited for limited stop services on the northern line and this is indeed one of the routes and service types for which the last batch was purchased. In addition there is a obvious requirement to supplement the Enterprise service and plug some of the more obvious holes in the timetable as well as providing additional capacity.

ThomasJ

04-10-2015, 12:23

One for a conspiracy theory forum, one could be forgiven to think in the short term they're planning

Balbriggan-Bray/Greystones DARTs
Howth junction-howth shuttle
Dublin-drogheda/Dundalk service with limited stops using 22ks

Jamie2k9

04-10-2015, 12:27

My point about the 08:00 Heuston/Cork is that perhaps the Mark 4 set could operate the inbound commuter service too?

Things can change and may have to in order to facilitate the new GCD services.

I'm looking at it with a completely open mind - and on that basis it is perfectly possible that two ICR sets would be released by returning two Mark 4 sets.

Just because you don't think it will work doesn't mean it won't happen.

If necessary a 20:00 service from Dublin to Cork could be added to operate the 06:15 the next morning.

There are plenty of options available.

The sets going to Portlaoise are either going for servicing or are operating the hourly stopping service - are you suggesting cancelling both of those?

Add a 20.00 service to run empty like the 21.00, just pure waste of money. I am well aware why they are going to Portlaoise but if demand was that critical they could be swapped around and anyway Heusotn is like a train park in the mornings than an active station.

Just take the 06.15 ex Cork has a 5 hour layover in Heuston before it's next duty. The fleet is not under severe pressure that's all I am saying.

I fully expect changes for GCD but noting significant, IE will easily have 22's available and will do whatever possible to ensure they are available.

The 22's on M3 Parkway/Maynooth are the immediate issue and additional commuter stock when available that will free a set or two up.

The 22ks are ideally suited for limited stop services on the northern line and this is indeed one of the routes and service types for which the last batch was purchased. In addition there is a obvious requirement to supplement the Enterprise service and plug some of the more obvious holes in the timetable as well as providing additional capacity.

They are and don't they operate in various 4/7 formations currently? At peak times unless more stops are removed they are not really suitable but if that was to happen fine make them available if possible. I agree about Enterprise services but surly the Mark IV tests in the last few weeks/months are going to do this at some stage?