Increase in Fares

[grainne whale]

I've just heard that the travel pass tickets are to increase :
http://intranet/Noticeboard/Lists/Staff%20News1/DispForm.aspx?ID=6916&RootFolder=%2FNoticeboard%2FLists%2FStaff%20News1

[berneyarms]

That link doesn't work - it looks like an internal one?

The NTA fare determinations for 2015 are due this month so I'd expect it fairly soon. They've set up a process whereby we get to know in October what the fares will be for the following calendar year.

[Mark Gleeson]

If you have the 2015 fares before the determination has been issued then there is a serious question as to the NTA's integrity

[Jamie2k9]

If you have the 2015 fares before the determination has been issued then there is a serious question as to the NTA's integrity

Surly we can all guess and all fare rises will be in the range of 6-8% as per.

[berneyarms]

The revised ticket prices for tickets dated 1 December onwards are on the taxsaver website.

http://www.taxsaver.ie/News/test/

http://www.taxsaver.ie/Global/Taxsaver%20rates%20effective%201st%20Nov%2014.pdf

Yet we do not have an NTA Fare Determination Report published as yet? Something is seriously wrong here.

[Mark Gleeson]

We are making some calls here

The fares Irish Rail are quoting are in line with what I would expect them to be, so look accurate

[James Howard]

So around 5% is to be expected with CPI inflation at around 0.5% for the last full year? Wasn't the subvention maintained for next year? These numbers really don't add up at all.

[berneyarms]

We really need to see the NTA reports - I for one certainly do not expect a fare increase that is more than 1% over inflation in percentage terms.

I think the passengers have paid more than their fair share at this stage.

[Jamie2k9]

We really need to see the NTA reports - I for one certainly do not expect a fare increase that is more than 1% over inflation in percentage terms.

I think the passengers have paid more than their fair share at this stage.

Weather we have paid our share there is still the small problem of a €16 million gap in funding.

[berneyarms]

Weather we have paid our share there is still the small problem of a €16 million gap in funding.

And from where are you pulling this figure?

[Jamie2k9]

2013 annual accounts and it was actually 16.4 million. One would hope that it has reduced this year.

[berneyarms]

I would hardly be quoting figures from a year ago in terms of a fares proposal for 2015. We need to see how the position has moved since then, given that the CIE Group have already received a large fare increase in 2014, wage restraint has been implemented (for over a year for the bus companies), and further cost reduction measures have been implemented, such as shorter trains.

My fear in all this is that the LEAP rollout and simplification of fares is resulting in excessive fare increases. The companies are being forced to bear the changes (such as the extension of child fares to 19 year olds) with no additional state funding.

If this is the case the NTA need to be tackled on it.

[Mark Gleeson]

The story behind the fare increases doesn't really stack up

Oil is at its lowest price in 4 years!
Payroll costs are down
Passenger numbers are up

So really IE should not have to request an increase

[Jamie2k9]

I would hardly be quoting figures from a year ago in terms of a fares proposal for 2015. We need to see how the position has moved since then, given that the CIE Group have already received a large fare increase in 2014, wage restraint has been implemented (for over a year for the bus companies), and further cost reduction measures have been implemented, such as shorter trains.

I agree but realistically they are still going to be somewhere around 10 million in the red this year. The wage changes only started for IE and the real effect won't be felt until 2015. They have shorter trains etc but they are not as short as IE would of liked.

[James Howard]

I agree with Mark on this one. They might have shorter trains but almost every train is packed. If anything they should be running longer trains as the overcrowding has to be driving custom away.

If I had to guess, the price increase is because they have commuters over a barrel and can get away with it. The reality for me is that I have no choice and so have to cough up. I had to buy a monthly pass for cash a couple of months back and when I did the numbers it was 10 euro cheaper than buying day returns for each of the days I was travelling.

A 2% increase sounds about right - that's still 4 times the CPI. I had an 11% increase last year and if this is correct, they'll be having another 6% this year. That will be close to a 25% increase over three years when general inflation has been less than 5%.

[Eddie]

As an annual Dublin bus and Dart ticket user, I thought I'd just post the changes that have occurred in the last 3 years and while we're at it, let's predict the next two.

2011: €1,230
2012: €1,420 (15.5% increase)
2013: €1,560 (9.9% increase)
2014: €1,710 (9.6% increase)
2015: €1,864? (assuming a 9% increase)
2016: €2,032? (assuming another 9% increase)

That's a 39% increase in the 3 years from 2011 to 2014, and it could be a 65% increase over 5 years if my extrapolations over the next 2 years turn out to be true.

On a separate issue, there seems to be an error with the monthly figure between Dublin and Cork. Every other route the monthly figure is 10% of the annual. Dublin to Cork is 22.7%.

[Mark Gleeson]

Dublin Cork has always been an abnormality

The annual rate is the same as the all route annual, so basically if you travel 100+miles you should get an all route annual as distinct from a point to point.

[Mark Gleeson]

NTA has refused to issue a copy of the determination to us despite the fact it is in the wild somewhere already

We may have a formal statement from the NTA by Tuesday next

[berneyarms]

Thanks for the update Mark.

[grainne whale]

My employer has given me notice that my Taxsaver Shorthop (Commuter Rail) will cost €1420 this year, so it looks like the increase is done and dusted.

[James Howard]

This seems a very sneaky way to slip in the price increases. Leak them just before a bank holiday weekend and then by the time the alleged justification / excuses are release it will have slipped off any possible place it would have gotten on the news agenda.

Mind you last year's report was pretty amazing in its cynicism where they basically said that they were hitting monthly and annual commuters the hardest as they have no other option.

How can they release a fare determination report less than a week before the increases come into force and a week after the deadline for ordering a taxsaver ticket at the previous price? What would the arrangement be if you had ordered a taxsaver to begin on November 1st two or three weeks ago?

[grainne whale]

This seems a very sneaky way to slip in the price increases. Leak them just before a bank holiday weekend and then by the time the alleged justification / excuses are release it will have slipped off any possible place it would have gotten on the news agenda.

Mind you last year's report was pretty amazing in its cynicism where they basically said that they were hitting monthly and annual commuters the hardest as they have no other option.

How can they release a fare determination report less than a week before the increases come into force and a week after the deadline for ordering a taxsaver ticket at the previous price? What would the arrangement be if you had ordered a taxsaver to begin on November 1st two or three weeks ago? My ticket runs January/ January and when I applied for the renewal in early October, it was the old price that was quoted on the application form. Irish Rail pulled the same trick last year.

[Colm Moore]

On a separate issue, there seems to be an error with the monthly figure between Dublin and Cork. Every other route the monthly figure is 10% of the annual. Dublin to Cork is 22.7%.

People will readily do the likes of Drogheda-Dublin 20+ times a month, they are unlikely to do Cork-Dublin quiet as often. Separately, the train is going to Cork anyway, there are only so many seats they can resell on the Thurles-Cork section, so getting any business is better than no business.

[berneyarms]

The NTA Fare Determination Reports have now gone live on their website.

Quite a lot of changes.

Dublin Bus:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_7_for_cash_Leap_Dublin_Bus.pdf

Bus Eireann:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_8_for_cash_etc_BE.pdf

Irish Rail:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_9_for_Leap_cash_and_prepaid_fa re_changes_by_Iarnrod_Eireann_October_2014.pdf

LUAS:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_10_Luas_cash_leap_pre-paid.pdf

CIE Group Monthly & Annual Tickets:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_5_monthly_and_annual_fares_inc reases_by_CIE_companies.pdf

LUAS Monthly & Annual Tickets:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_6_Luas_monthly_annual.pdf

[Traincustomer]

The Waterford - Tipperary table (which appeared in last year's determination) is absent from this IÉ determination.

[Destructix]

Fare increases 2015

To Dublin single
Portlaoise €23.85
Ballybrophy €27.80
Templemore €36.10
Thurles €39.25
Limerick Junction €47.30
Charleville €53.05
Mallow €58.15
Cork €65.65

To Dublin day return
Portlaoise €30.35
Ballybrophy €36.15
Templemore €44.00
Thurles €47.90
Limerick Junction €56.70
Charleville €61.80
Mallow €66.50
Cork €78.15

To Dublin open return
Portlaoise €33.75
Ballybrophy €40.05
Templemore €49.50
Thurles €53.65
Limerick Junction €64.20
Charleville €69.35
Mallow €74.70
Cork €85.30


http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_9_for_Leap_cash_and_prepaid_fa re_changes_by_Iarnrod_Eireann_October_2014.pdf

[Mark Gleeson]

Anyone so angry as to want to be quoted in the newspaper?

Thinking of dumping the train and getting into the car?

Let me know info@railusers.ie

[jacko]

Mark,

could you possibly highlight the following issue !


The increase in the cobh/cork + city bus services - monthly ticket has increased by 9.52% as opposed to 2.76% for the midleton/cork +city bus services – the differential defies all logic and the 9.52% increase can only be ascribed to gouging of a popular route.

The introduction of the Leapcard has been long promised on the cork commuter lines. One of the principles of its introduction is that the fare will be cheaper than the existing fares.

Currently the Cork/Cobh return fare is €8.50 cash. The proposed new Leap Card fare is €9.20 !

Also the cash fare is increasing by 14.1% compared to average increases of 3/4% on DART and Dublin Short Hop rail

[Mark Gleeson]

No increase in Cork fares until sometime in 2015 when LEAP is available.

[jacko]

No increase in Cork fares until sometime in 2015 when LEAP is available.

but when they are implemented they are illogical

[laoisfan]

I got my last monthly in work yesterday (ticket for November). Decided to go back to an annual ticket (Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston, work in Park-West). Ordered it based on current price of €3400 so suppose I'm just delaying the price increase for a year at least.

[grainne whale]

Anyone so angry as to want to be quoted in the newspaper?

Thinking of dumping the train and getting into the car?

Let me know info@railusers.ie No just to say that I got a return from Dublin to Gatwick there recently - total cost €51 - that would only just get me a return to just beyond Thurles :rolleyes:

[Mark Gleeson]

2015 fare calculator is almost ready

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2015.php

As usual the determination from the NTA has a lot of missing stuff so certain routes it is unclear what the fares might be, e.g. Waterford Limerick Junction.

[comcor]

With regard to the Midleton and Cobh price differential, surely the question is why Midleton was priced higher than Cobh when the line opened. The distance is the same to within a few hundred metres. In fact, using Irish Rail's logic from elsewhere on the network, Midleton should have been cheaper as it was a single track.

It would be nice to think that if the fares could converge, it could be the start of a zonal system in Cork. Even better if it could match up with the one that Bus Eireann seem to be introducing for pass-holders. I won't hold my breath though.

[Mark Gleeson]

Midleton was thrown into the new E zone fare as a very obvious money grab exercise by IE, there was no extra subsidy to run the service so to all steps to maximise revenue were taken

[James Howard]

It doesn't look to me as if the double-track/single track logic applies at all to monthly passes. Mullingar, Portlaiose & Dundalk are all roughly the same distance from Dublin yet Mullingar has a day return of around two-thirds the price of the others. So far so good, but the monthly pass is exactly the same price from all three.

[berneyarms]

You can't compare Midleton to other Intercity routes - the rationale for lower fares was more to do with fewer and slower trains rather than single track.

Midleton has an hourly all day service, and half-hourly at peak times, which isn't exactly a poor service level.

The Intercity fares are now set on the basis of:

Express (Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Limerick, Dublin-Tralee and Dublin-Dundalk)
Economy 1 (Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Mayo, Dublin-Sligo, WRC)
Economy 2 (Dublin-Rosslare, Dublin-Waterford, Nenagh Branch, South Tipperary line)

This applies to Single, Day Return and Open Return fares.

Season tickets are priced on a universal scale.

[dowlingm]

The story behind the fare increases doesn't really stack up

Oil is at its lowest price in 4 years!
Payroll costs are down
Passenger numbers are up

So really IE should not have to request an increaseDo IE hedge fuel contracts? They might be stuck with a fixed price deal above the spot price.

[Mark Gleeson]

They have claimed a reclassification of capital expenditure is the cause for the increase

They are hedged to some degree, but oil has been heading downwards in price for several months

[Jamie2k9]

The Intercity fares are now set on the basis of:

Express (Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Limerick, Dublin-Tralee and Dublin-Dundalk)
Economy 1 (Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Mayo, Dublin-Sligo, WRC)
Economy 2 (Dublin-Rosslare, Dublin-Waterford, Nenagh Branch, South Tipperary line)

This applies to Single, Day Return and Open Return fares.


Could somebody tell or point me in the right direction to see how they decide which band to place routes into.

Thanks

[Mark Gleeson]

Its historical to some degree, the NTA have some spiel about it but I cannot recall a route ever being reclassified.

RUI fare calculator shows the fare class and distance

[berneyarms]

Could somebody tell or point me in the right direction to see how they decide which band to place routes into.

Thanks

Go back to the NTA fare determination reports - I think it was the first one on Irish Rail intercity fares from a few years ago.

[jacko]

You can't compare Midleton to other Intercity routes - the rationale for lower fares was more to do with fewer and slower trains rather than single track.

Midleton has an hourly all day service, and half-hourly at peak times, which isn't exactly a poor service level.

The Intercity fares are now set on the basis of:

Express (Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Limerick, Dublin-Tralee and Dublin-Dundalk)
Economy 1 (Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Mayo, Dublin-Sligo, WRC)
Economy 2 (Dublin-Rosslare, Dublin-Waterford, Nenagh Branch, South Tipperary line)

This applies to Single, Day Return and Open Return fares.

Season tickets are priced on a universal scale.

the most recent rail census shows a significant increase in Midleton passengers

[Eddie]

As an annual Dublin bus and Dart ticket user, I thought I'd just post the changes that have occurred in the last 3 years and while we're at it, let's predict the next two.

2011: €1,230
2012: €1,420 (15.5% increase)
2013: €1,560 (9.9% increase)
2014: €1,710 (9.6% increase)
2015: €1,864? (assuming a 9% increase)
2016: €2,032? (assuming another 9% increase)

That's a 39% increase in the 3 years from 2011 to 2014, and it could be a 65% increase over 5 years if my extrapolations over the next 2 years turn out to be true.

On a separate issue, there seems to be an error with the monthly figure between Dublin and Cork. Every other route the monthly figure is 10% of the annual. Dublin to Cork is 22.7%.

I see Charlie Westin gets a very similar increase regarding his own Annual ticket in the Sunday Independent today, but also points out that through these increases, we're helping to fund some very expensive public sector pension schemes (which are virtually non-existent now in the private sector because they are so unaffordable).

I see that not all the tickets have gone up - some have actually gone down, eg the Commuter Rail / Bus / Luas which has fallen by €100 to €2080. Clearly, they have had to reduce the price to make it more attractive because it was out-of-line with other combo-tickets. So the price goes up if demand appears to be maintained (to increase revenue), but price does actually fall if demand falls.

When I first ditched my car in favour of an annual commuter ticket 4 years ago, it was primarily because it was attractively priced, and gave me time to read the paper and relax on the way to work, even though it made the commute longer.

I have done the calculations based on the new rates and it's now very marginal, and should the increases continue next year, is likely to be more expensive.

I will be make plans this year, so I can pull the plug at will next year.

You're on notice, Annual Tax Saver ticket.

[Eddie]

As an annual Dublin bus and Dart ticket user, I thought I'd just post the changes that have occurred in the last 3 years and while we're at it, let's predict the next two.

2011: €1,230
2012: €1,420 (15.5% increase)
2013: €1,560 (9.9% increase)
2014: €1,710 (9.6% increase)
2015: €1,864? (assuming a 9% increase)
2016: €2,032? (assuming another 9% increase)

That's a 39% increase in the 3 years from 2011 to 2014, and it could be a 65% increase over 5 years if my extrapolations over the next 2 years turn out to be true.

Let's see how close my prediction will be ... despite energy price falls and increased patronage.

[James Shields]

So what was the 2015 price?

James

[James Howard]

Well they are out and we're supposed to be grateful that they've held increases to around 3%. They seem to have entirely given up on any kind of efficiency gains, the subvention is going up, usage is going up and yet the increase is still more than 3% above inflation.

Fare Determination (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_No_4_2015__Consideration_of_proposal _from_Iarnrod_Eireann_to_change_fares_for_Iarnrod_ Eireann_services_in_2016__October_2015.pdf)

According to this (http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/ireland/current-cpi-inflation-ireland.aspx), the current CPI inflation rate is -0.3%.

[Mark Gleeson]

Let's see how close my prediction will be ... despite energy price falls and increased patronage.

Bus and Rail 2015 1710
Bus and Rail 2016 1760