Anti Social Scumbags

[AD11]

3 guys broke windows on 6.14 (Mullingar) service this morning leaving us delayed overall by an hour more or less after being 'stranded' around Leixlip.

2 of them tried forcing a door open after pulling emergency switch. If they had managed to get it open at the time they would have been picking pieces of them off a train going in the opposite direction.

As it was they moved on to another carriage and according to twitter / newspaper reports they smashed windows and escaped on to the tracks with the Gardai in hot pursuit.

I got out of bed at 5.20 for this - things can only get better :(

[James Howard]

Strange time of the day for scumbags to be about but I guess that train leaves Longford early enough for people on an all-night bender. There really is a need for some kind of staff presence on trains. What if this were an 8-car 29k unit - there is no staff at all on the back half of the train.

If you were injured or had a laptop smashed in an incident like this would Irish Rail be judged as having failed in their Duty of Care to customers?

[berneyarms]

The newspaper report below has more information.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/gardai-pursue-train-vandals-down-tracks-after-they-smashed-windows-and-pulled-emergency-handles-30071544.html

Not sure about what any staff member could do in those circumstances without backup. They were high on drugs according to the report above.

Utterly bizarre incident - very scary for anyone onboard the train.

[AD11]

Indeed, it's definitely the earliest I've ever seen this sort of thing and like yourself JH I've been commuting a fair long while. Lets hope it's not the start of a new trend. ;)

[James Howard]

I wouldn't expect any staff member to intervene given the risks to personal safety, but they certainly would have seen the situation developing and been able to alert the guards so they could have been waiting at a station. The problem is that with no Irish Rail presence on the train, situations like this tend to develop unobserved until they get out of hand.

I am really glad I wasn't on that train. Fair dues to Irish Rail for handling the disruption though - the Times is saying the train was only 35 minutes late which is not bad considering. It does sounds especially bizarre that the third guy completed his journey.

[AD11]

I see over on the Irish Independent website that the keyboard warriors were out in full force as to what they would and wouldnt have done to them lads if they had been on the train. :rolleyes:

In reality they would have done like everyone else - watch on in stunned silence as 2 of the morons tried to force open the door by kicking it and then repeatedly tried to smash the glass in the door with the emergency hammer. :eek:

It appears they were more 'successful' in another carriage where they broke through window or windows? Now, that must have been really upsetting / scary for passengers in that carriage. :(

[Mark Gleeson]

Circumstances this morning were beyond crazy.

On train staff would have not intervened on safety grounds. When any of the emergency handles are pulled or the glass hammer is removed from its case the driver gets an alarm and the exact location on the train computer, driver has CCTV which will automatically pull up the camera nearest the incident.

Driver has a choice when the emergency handle is pulled, either to stop or to continue by pressing a button within 5 seconds. Clearly given the CCTV with broken windows stopping is the best option. If the door release was pulled the brakes apply, that's probably why the train stopped outside station. That said policy if gardai are needed is delay arrival at the platform until support has arrived.

Reality is the two scumbags this morning got bail this afternoon so are free to cause more trouble this evening

[AD11]

I just hope they are not using the other side of their return ticket on my way home this evening :eek:

;) ;)

[Mark Gleeson]

I don't like making assumptions but odds are no ticket to start with

What odds a RPU offical appeared onboard and they tried to leg it?

[grainne whale]

I don't like making assumptions but odds are no ticket to start with

What odds a RPU offical appeared onboard and they tried to leg it? Ah no they would prefer to be obnoxious to the ordinary passenger.:mad:

[AD11]

I dont think there was any RPU officials involved. Certainly were not on the scene when they were hacking away at the door anyway.

I doubt if it was anything to do with a ticket either.

[haddockman]

Where did they board the train? Maynooth or Leixlip?

[Mark Gleeson]

Train had CCTV so that can be determined easily.

The big question of the day is how the 2 that got arrested got bail. We are talking about 2 people who caused total chaos and whose actions could have very easily resulted in their own death or death of other passengers

Transport Act 1950, section 59(1) A person who trespasses on any of the railways of or worked by the Board is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.�

The whole of Part 12 of the Rail Safety Act 2005,
(a) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €100,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both,

Odds are we can throw in fare evasion as well and a whole stack of bye law offences.

No matter how many times we ask for a transport police we are wasting our time if the courts system will hand out bail. While there is an assumption of innocent till proven guilty, its hard to deny the charges given the arrest took place on the railway.

[ACustomer]

And thanks to yesterday's Supreme Court ruling (courtesy of the ECHR) the little sh*ts cannot even be be questioned until they have a solicitor present.

Why are human rights always the rights of someone other than law abiding and terrorised citizens?

[Colm Moore]

If anyone witnessed the events, please contact the investigating gardaÃ*.And thanks to yesterday's Supreme Court ruling (courtesy of the ECHR) the little sh*ts cannot even be be questioned until they have a solicitor present.Without wanting to get into a legal discussion, this isn't quite the decision. I understand it has implications for evidence gained before one gets legal advice. I don't think there is any entitlement to have the solicitor present for the duration of all questioning.

[Traincustomer]

Shannonside (local radio) coverage:

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/two-charged-with-criminal-damage-after-train-incident/
(http://www.shannonside.ie/news/two-charged-with-criminal-damage-after-train-incident/)

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/early-morning-longford-dublin-train-stopped-after-trouble-broke-out/


I feel for the ordinary passengers who were onboard the train.

[haddockman]

If anyone witnessed the events, please contact the investigating gardaÃ*.Without wanting to get into a legal discussion, this isn't quite the decision. I understand it has implications for evidence gained before one gets legal advice. I don't think there is any entitlement to have the solicitor present for the duration of all questioning.

That is correct, but any competent solicitor will advise their client not to answer questions or make any statement.

[joey]

The full force of the law should be enforced without any discretion to these scumbags. Brings back the argument about having transport police within our network.

Getting bail is a joke, incredible.

Was it a 22k or 29k set?

[James Howard]

There are only a few clearly defined reasons for bail being denied. These are that the defendant is likely to abscond while on bail, that the defendant is likely to interfere with witnesses or jurors, that the defendant was already on bail when the crime was committed or that a Garda superintendent believes that the defendant is like to commit another crime while on bail.

The last provision is used relatively rarely but if none of these conditions are met the defendant has to be offered bail. The fact is that prisons are already full of people who have been convicted of crimes. The reality is that to remand somebody who is technically innocent until proven guilty is going to require a convicted criminal to be let out on temporary release to make space.

The real issue is about how long it takes the wheels of justice to turn. It will probably be several months before this case comes up and even when it does, if the individuals have no previous record (I won't comment on the likelihood of this), they will probably get away with a short sentence or community service. As somebody who has been up for jury service a couple of times, from my observation the entire process is a bit of a joke and a tremendous waste of a hell of a lot of both peoples time and public money.

On the issue of transport police, I can't see that this service would have been assigned any protection as it would have been regarded as a low-risk service. I think it would be more reasonable to expect that there should be a ticket collector on most if not all services to keep an eye on things. This would be especially the case for outer commuter services given that most of the stations have no ticket barriers so the level of fare evasion is sufficient that a ticket collector would be self-financing. I would say personally that I move carriage three or four times a year where there is a particular level of anti-social behaviour going on and I would rather complete my journey in peace and quiet. It wouldn't really occur to me to ring anyone about it as I don't want to get involved and get beaten up or have my laptop smashed for my trouble and there would rarely be any staff on the train to back me up.

[grainne whale]

I was on the 17.20pm train from Heuston to Portlaoise on Friday evening when two windows were smashed in the carriage by scumbags throwing stones at Clondalkin. Certainly I would prefer to see Transport Police rather than those private security (Brinks) who have only the same powers of arrest as you or I on our transport system.

[James Howard]

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

[Mark Gleeson]

Early morning is not a time you would expect trouble

The advent of front/rear CCTV on many trains means the stone throwers can now be traced in many incidents. Legally there is no issue with a transport police as it would be just a gardai division like the traffic corp.

The windows are designed to take a pretty significant impact without collapsing, that is no doubt is why the pair on the Longford train didn't get far with the glass hammer.

If you know how to use the glass hammer you can take a window out in a single strike, if you don't you will probably break the hammer before you break the window. Just look at the graphic next to the hammer for the secret

[grainne whale]

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.
Sorry, I didn't mean that Transport Police could stop the stone throwing (badly phrased), but they would stop anti social behavour on trains. ie the 16.40 fron Heuston to Waterford from time to time. As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

[Colm Moore]

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.
As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.
As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport PoliceThe problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads.

[grainne whale]

Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.
Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.
The problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads. Just a question, how are the private security Brinks allowed to operate. ?

[haddockman]

Just a question, how are the private security Brinks allowed to operate. ?

They have the same powers as a private citizen. They are licensed as security guards by the private security authority. They cannot do a lot.

[Mark Gleeson]

They have struck again reports of passengers assaulted on the 17:55 Heuston Newbridge service

[James Howard]

We can expect a decisive response from Irish Rail in the near future. They will be printing up large stickers with a phone number to ring which will be manned from 09:30 to 16:30 Monday to Thursday.

Joking aside, in all seriousness, a swift response in terms of security on board a large percentage if not all trains is required for the next few days. Obviously these lads decided that since the last lot got bail anything goes so I won't be surprised to see a spate of incidents. This incident appears to be a lot more serious as it seems a passenger was actually assaulted.

According to Irish Rail's twitter feed, the driver (and I presume by extension nobody at Irish Rail) was aware until they were contacted by the Gardai. Unbelievable. Also, I would hardly call 18:30 or so out of hours for a rail company.

Iarnród Éireann ‏@IrishRail 19m
@experteasy @rosslaregooner Our twitter feed is not always manned out if hours. The driver was not aware until the Gardai made contact

[Mark Gleeson]

There is the somewhat unknown emergency number 01 8555454 staffed 24-7-365

Its basically connects you to the same person the driver gets if he pushes the emergency button

For the circumstances tonight its use is completely justified.

Protocol is
Dial if there is a risk to life
When answered state 'This is an emergency call'
Clearly and slowly give the details, if on a train the trains origin/departure time otherwise if at station/level crossing/bridge give the location and the reference number as shown
Give your name and number
Follow instructions given

In a railway emergency dial this number FIRST before 112 (I know its illogical but thats the protocol) the biggest risk in a railway incident is other trains still moving

[Jamie2k9]

James
why would they know when nobody including the person involved decided to alert the driver. There was enough passengers to do it and even if the two people were going through the train somebody could of used the toilet to alert him.

Safe to assume they have free travel, no way could they afford Irish Rails prices to travel around so much.

As for transport police airport and ports fund them fully from commercial revenue received. Needless to say transport operators here couldn't afford to.

According to the journal 3 have being arrested.

[James Howard]

The point is that nobody alerted the driver because to do so is to draw attention to yourself and hence become a target. Also, why bother if all the driver can do is ring the guards. You may as well cut out the middleman.

The problem is that for several years now there have been some trains with no Irish Rail staff presence aside from the driver. On these trains, routine anti-social behaviour such as smoking, playing music, etc goes entirely unpunished and so escalates. It is this development of a threatening atmosphere that any staff presence on the train prevents. This is what has escalated into these two incidents.

Obviously a transport police is the ideal solution, but there is little point in having it as a Garda division as they staff will just get reassigned to more important and glamourous duties. But having any kind of presence is better than none - where this be private security or even just not having the expectation of NEVER seeing a ticket collector an a given service.

[Jamie2k9]

Don't buy not alerting him at all. Yes possibly draw attention however there is over 200 passengers on a train. Somebody could of easily pulled the hammer beside themselves and the driver would of had to come out and the CCTV would clearly show the people in the coach.

He could easily of slowed down the train so guards would meet its arrival and there is at least 200 passengers onboard which could easy detain the two suspects.

As for only driver onboard only a few weeks ago I was on a train which was supposed to have security but didn't and had a ticket checker and the driver was easily made away of problems onboard and nothing was done whatsoever.

This doing nothing approach is the problem.

[ocian]

I remember travelling to Galway and Westport a number of years ago and there was two of the rail security guys that you find on the Luas or in Connolly and Heuston stations on board each train. As expected, having these 2 big tough lads in stab-proof vests etc discourages any antisocial behaviour.

Anyone have any idea why this arrangement of having them on the trains stopped, and if it would be possible for Irish Rail to start putting them on trains again?

[Mark Gleeson]

There seems to be a passenger education issue here which contributed to the issue this evening

1. Pulling any of the emergency handles or breaking the seal on any emergency equipment does not sound an alarm in the passenger cabin or in any way indicate they have been activated

2. With the exception of the emergency door release none of the emergency handles actually cause the train to stop. The driver has to press a button within 5 seconds to override the emergency stop

3. When any handle or seal is broken the driver display in the cab immediately shows the location and the nearest CCTV

4. There are 11 ways to trigger an emergency in each ICR coach, 4 inside the coach (glass hammer + fire extinguisher) , 3 at each end (doors *2 plus driver communication button), 1 in the toilet

[James Howard]

From the article on The Journal, it sounds very much as if the trouble was actually as a result of somebody intervening where something was being stolen - or at least where they thought something was being stolen. They appear to have received a broken nose for their trouble.

There is obviously a very serious passenger education (or trust) issue - several people took the trouble to ring the guards but nobody felt it worthwhile telling Irish Rail. Whether this was because they didn't know how or because they didn't feel that it was worth bothering is hard to know. But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves.

[Concerned Worker]

Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous comment ?

"But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves"

[berneyarms]

From the article on The Journal, it sounds very much as if the trouble was actually as a result of somebody intervening where something was being stolen - or at least where they thought something was being stolen. They appear to have received a broken nose for their trouble.

There is obviously a very serious passenger education (or trust) issue - several people took the trouble to ring the guards but nobody felt it worthwhile telling Irish Rail. Whether this was because they didn't know how or because they didn't feel that it was worth bothering is hard to know. But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves.

To be honest it does really show how much people totally choose not to make themselves aware of what to do in an emergency, despite notices being plastered all over the train.

[Mark Gleeson]

You can equally blame Irish Rail for hiding its emergency number.

When stuck in the no win scenario like last night I highly recommend the fire extinguisher, nice and heavy to stop any advancing thug and best of all you can spray them down CO2 is very cold, or foam.

Removing the extinguisher triggers an alarm in the cab also...

[James Howard]

Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous comment ?

"But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves"

Several people (not just one) rang the guards, nobody contacted anybody at Irish Rail. That's sufficient evidence for a concerned passenger.

I have never seen any emergency number posted on a train. Now, I will admit to usually being in a bit of a fog in the morning, but to my knowledge there is no Irish Rail emergency number visible from a passenger seat.

[berneyarms]

Several people (not just one) rang the guards, nobody contacted anybody at Irish Rail. That's sufficient evidence for a concerned passenger.

I have never seen any emergency number posted on a train. Now, I will admit to usually being in a bit of a fog in the morning, but to my knowledge there is no Irish Rail emergency number visible from a passenger seat.

But again - they didn't contact the driver because they didn't know how to, due to not being aware of what to do.

People have no interest in knowing what to do in an emergency until they are in one themselves.

[Kilocharlie]

But again - they didn't contact the driver because they didn't know how to, due to not being aware of what to do.

People have no interest in knowing what to do in an emergency until they are in one themselves.

The electronic displays in the carriages on 22Ks advise passenger to contact the driver via the intercom at the end of the carriage in cases of anti-social behaviour.

[berneyarms]

The electronic displays in the carriages on 22Ks advise passenger to contact the driver via the intercom at the end of the carriage in cases of anti-social behaviour.

So why didn't someone do precisely that?

People just ignore these notices/displays/announcements.

[Jamie2k9]

The reason the driver wasn't told is because today society is self indulged and once it isn't affecting them people are happy to sit back and watch.

Now the driver would and could only do what the passengers did and alert the guards but blaming IE when nobody contacted the driver is not justified.

Possibly IE staff can pay more attention to the type of people boarding services in future.

Most people read the displays at some time or another and if you are a daily traveler there is no excuse for not alerting the driver.

[ocian]

When stuck in the no win scenario like last night I highly recommend the fire extinguisher, nice and heavy to stop any advancing thug and best of all you can spray them down CO2 is very cold, or foam.


Surely then Irish Rail can pull you up also for misuse of the safety equipment if they wanted to? €2000 fine for doing so isn't it?

Now if the thug was on fire it would be a different story :D

[Mark Gleeson]

In the circumstances last night use of reasonable force to protect yourself was more than justified.

Folks seem rather scared of using any of the safety equipment, its there for emergencies...

[James Howard]

Fair enough, the lack of information (and people not familiarising themselves) on how to contact Irish Rail is a big factor. But from where I'm sitting on an ICR right now, there is no information visible. Any information on how to use emergency equipment tends to put a lot of emphasis on penalties for mis-use which would tend to put a lot of people off.

You can't put this down to apathy - several people did ring the guards so it wasn't a question of being passive. For some reason people either didn't know to pull the cord, they didn't feel it worthwhile or they were afraid to. Another possibility is that people thought that it would be better not to alert the driver in case he stopped the train and the guys then tried to do a runner.

The only thing I am blaming Irish Rail for is the failure to provide any form of security on trains and for allowing the situation to persist where low-level anti-social behaviour is allowed to continue unchallenged. This has a tendency to develop into incidents like we've seen this week and ultimately, somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed as a result of it. It is not reasonable to expect a ticket collector to go in and stop a fight but it is reasonable to expect some effort made to keep headbangers off trains and for Irish Rail staff to monitor what is going on and arrange to remove people from trains if they are annoying other passengers. None of this is new - I only ever took the old 1817 train to Longford once, because it was a very scary place to be the only person in a carriage after Maynooth aside from a nutter with a 2-litre of Linden Village.

In terms of defending yourself with a fire extinguisher, you are generally Ok if you used something that was to hand as a weapon so long as you could reasonably be expected to have the item to hand. So if you had a sword, that is not cool but if you used a walking stick, that is Ok.

[berneyarms]

Fair enough, the lack of information (and people not familiarising themselves) on how to contact Irish Rail is a big factor. But from where I'm sitting on an ICR right now, there is no information visible. Any information on how to use emergency equipment tends to put a lot of emphasis on penalties for mis-use which would tend to put a lot of people off.

You can't put this down to apathy - several people did ring the guards so it wasn't a question of being passive. For some reason people either didn't know to pull the cord, they didn't feel it worthwhile or they were afraid to. Another possibility is that people thought that it would be better not to alert the driver in case he stopped the train and the guys then tried to do a runner.

The only thing I am blaming Irish Rail for is the failure to provide any form of security on trains and for allowing the situation to persist where low-level anti-social behaviour is allowed to continue unchallenged. This has a tendency to develop into incidents like we've seen this week and ultimately, somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed as a result of it. It is not reasonable to expect a ticket collector to go in and stop a fight but it is reasonable to expect some effort made to keep headbangers off trains and for Irish Rail staff to monitor what is going on and arrange to remove people from trains if they are annoying other passengers. None of this is new - I only ever took the old 1817 train to Longford once, because it was a very scary place to be the only person in a carriage after Maynooth aside from a nutter with a 2-litre of Linden Village.

In terms of defending yourself with a fire extinguisher, you are generally Ok if you used something that was to hand as a weapon so long as you could reasonably be expected to have the item to hand. So if you had a sword, that is not cool but if you used a walking stick, that is Ok.

James,

Since time immemorial there has always been an emergency chord on a train. If people could figure out how to use that on 50 years ago on cravens/park royal sets, they should certainly be able to figure it out on an ICR. That no one pulled it is frankly staggering.

As for the safety information, there are announcements after each stop telling you to familiarise yourself with the safety information at the end of each coach. Have you?

As for staffing, are you seriously expecting every DART and commuter train to have staff on them, particularly given virtually every station now has a ticket machine? That would only mean extra cost which would mean even higher fares. Realistically, how often does anything like this ever happen?

We do need to put a bit of perspective here. Yes, we've had two serious incidents, which need to be dealt with, and I'm certainly not diminishing the incidents in any way shape or form, but when did anything like that happen before?

I'd be more concerned that as a society we aren't doing enough to combat the general issue of drug addiction - that's the root cause of all of this.

[James Howard]

On a related note there were two groups of very boisterous lads on the 1705 to Sligo this evening who were getting louder as the journey went on. They had taken over a vestibule so nobody could use the toilets or exit through those doors. It wasn't so bad when I got off at Edgeworthstown to be worth pulling the emergency cord but it wasn't far from it. There was no ticket checker on that half of the train but I did see the trolley-pusher in the next car as I was getting off. He was steering well clear in case anybody asked him to do anything.

So, although the station was closed, I knew there was an anti-social behaviour number posted on the door so I decided to ring to see if they could get somebody at Longford to have a word - this number isn't displayed anywhere in the train. So after I got off the train I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.

So you can only report anti-social behaviour at unmanned stations or driver-only trains during office hours. And now I wait for the Irish Rail defenders to suggest that me not pulling the cord and delaying the train for 10 minutes by requiring the driver to come down the train to reset it makes me some sort of irresponsible person.

[ocian]

I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.



That's a useful number they've got there :p

Bit of a ridiculous situation you ended up in James, and I've been in a similar one once or twice. I mean had you pulled the chord and the train stopped they might have gotten worse. In circumstances like this ringing such a number discreetly would have been ideal, if it actually connected to someone! Most incidences like this probably happen outside of office hours so this number sounds a bit redundant to me.

I know Mark had said previously that the driver will get the nearest security camera and decide to stop or not etc etc, but in a situation such as this you wouldn't pull the chord right beside the troublemakers or god knows what will happen. Instead you'll pull the next cord you see either at the other end of the carriage or the next carriage, so when the driver get's his CCTV camera all he see's is you pulling the chord and no emergency or troublemakers :confused:

I know staffing is an issue, but surely it can't be that hard for Irish Rail to have someone answer a phone outside of office hours?

[Jamie2k9]

On a related note there were two groups of very boisterous lads on the 1705 to Sligo this evening who were getting louder as the journey went on. They had taken over a vestibule so nobody could use the toilets or exit through those doors. It wasn't so bad when I got off at Edgeworthstown to be worth pulling the emergency cord but it wasn't far from it. There was no ticket checker on that half of the train but I did see the trolley-pusher in the next car as I was getting off. He was steering well clear in case anybody asked him to do anything.

So, although the station was closed, I knew there was an anti-social behaviour number posted on the door so I decided to ring to see if they could get somebody at Longford to have a word - this number isn't displayed anywhere in the train. So after I got off the train I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.

So you can only report anti-social behaviour at unmanned stations or driver-only trains during office hours. And now I wait for the Irish Rail defenders to suggest that me not pulling the cord and delaying the train for 10 minutes by requiring the driver to come down the train to reset it makes me some sort of irresponsible person.

Could this be classed as an "emergency"?

Now when you say took over the vestibule, did they refuse to let people through?

You could of reported it to the driver at a station when he was stopped and knocked on the door or even went out to the platform and walked up. IE's twitter is generally good and well watched even outside office hours and weekends for alerting central control to problems on services. You could of called a station en route and ask them to have a word with the driver.

Had you pulled the emergency handle if this situation, you should of being fined IMO. Now I do agree IE could do more for passengers reporting problems.

[berneyarms]

That's exactly the sort of situation where the intercom with the driver (in the vestibule) should be used.

From the description it was anti-social behaviour and no one will get fined for reporting it via the intercom. To suggest that someone one get fined is daft.

[James Howard]

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk.

[Jamie2k9]

That's exactly the sort of situation where the intercom with the driver (in the vestibule) should be used.

From the description it was anti-social behaviour and no one will get fined for reporting it via the intercom. To suggest that someone one get fined is daft.

Yes intercom is fine but pulling the hammer in the coach isn't which is what I believe JH was referring to?

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk

Fair point, have had to climb over people unwilling to move but guess it just depends on the people your dealing with.

[berneyarms]

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk.

Could you not use the intercom to the driver at the other end of the coach?

I appreciate your point, but there's a communication button at both ends of every coach - I certainly would not expect you to use the one beside these guys.

Having said all that - an office hours number is useless.

[ocian]

There's no point blaming James for not using the intercom at the end of the car, Irish Rail should provide a number that you can call out of office hours when calling the driver is too risky. I agree that maybe in this case James could have used the intercom had he known the phone number wouldn't work, but blaming him for not doing so is not right in my opinion.

One point I'd like to make is what do you do if you're on a commuter set which doesn't have intercoms like the ICRs do? As far as I can remember, 29000s only have the hammer (which is attached to the emergency chord above someone's seat) and the door release right next to it, both of which are in full view of everyone in the car. Had this incident occurred on a 29000 set, how could someone report the incident to the driver discreetly? This is why a phone number is needed.

[James Howard]

I couldn't use the intercom at the other end as there was another group drinking at the other end of the car and I was unsure if they were not just one large group split into two. Hence I didn't want to chance it. As I was about to get off the train anyway, I figured ringing the number was the better option.

It didn't occur to me that the posted anti-social behaviour number would only be answered 9 - 5. Pulling the cord is fine if you are on a train, but what if it was a woman on her own waiting for a train at a halt like Enfield or Kilcock where it is pretty normal for crowds of teenagers to hang around drinking. There is nobody there to call for help.

It is pretty outrageous that there is no Irish Rail number to call. Yes you can call the guards but in that case, it is quite likely that Irish Rail would never even find out about an incident at a station.

Given the recent take-no-prisoners attitude regarding fare evasion, who is to say what the response would be for using the intercom or emergency handle in a borderline situation. The risk of a fine is a serious disincentive from using it.

Maybe it would make sense on a Friday to designate a few cars as "party cars", the way the smoking cars used to be in the old days. If you wanted a quiet journey years ago, you went first class or non-smoking. If you wanted a game of cards and a few few beers, take a smoking car. I would always avoid the 1905 on a Friday as it is usually pretty rowdy but it is annoying if this is spreading back to the 1705 now.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a 24 hour number, and that number is on the same poster as the anti social behaviour number.

01 8555454 is staffed 24-7-365 but is to be used only in the case of an accident or imminent risk to safety

You always have the option of leaving the train at a station and telling the driver. There are emergency communication equipment in all of the toilets also.

When at a station you can always call the gardai, unmanned stations have been around since the start of railways.

[Concerned Worker]

I find it extraordinary that a member of Rail Users Ireland with in excess of 660 posts does not know how to contact the Driver/Authorities in such a situation.

[comcor]

I find it extraordinary that a member of Rail Users Ireland with in excess of 660 posts does not know how to contact the Driver/Authorities in such a situation.

I have roughly the same number of posts and don't know.

Anyway, it should be east to find out what to do even if you're a first time traveller.

[Jamie2k9]

Anyway, it should be east to find out what to do even if you're a first time traveller.

The on-board displays let people know about the emergency intercom to report problems to drivers regularly.

This situation was more passengers feeling intimidated.

[Traincustomer]

It seems a perfectly reasonable expectation that there would be a dedicated (i.e. separate to train enquiries etc...) phone number plus a possible text facility for reporting anti-social behaviour and that same number/s would be staffed 363 days a year from say fifteen minutes before the departure of the first train till fifteen minutes after the arrival of the last.

While the phone number would remain the same the actual staffing of it could be transferred around the country in the course of the day e.g. a member of staff from say Cork could man it from first train till 08.00 then 08.00-noon could be manned by Dublin and so on...

All stations, particularly unstaffed/staffed part-time ones, should have help points too.

[James Howard]

The real issue here is that the anti-social behaviour number posted in Edgeworthstown station was not answered. Even the number of Longford station would have done. I'll repeat what I said so far, maybe people will understand if they read again.

There is no point in calling the guards in Edgeworthstown as there aren't any. It is better for the train to take the problem to Longford and the guards in Longford can meet the train.

I felt unsafe using any of the mechanisms for communicating with the driver as there people were at both ends of the car and I could go no further either way. When I got off the train, to speak to the driver, I would have had to walk past the main site of the messing so I figured I was better off using the anti-social behaviour number that I knew was posted in the station but I didn't have in my relatively new phone.

This was not an emergency situation but it had the potential to develop into one but as a result I found out that the posted anti-social behaviour number did not work. Stopping the train in Edgeworthstown for 20 minutes to wait for guards would have only made matters a lot worse.

[Inniskeen]

This is an issue which Irish Rail need to take seriously. I have attempted to use the vandalism hotline on one or two occasions and found it to be an utter waste of time. This is a major risk for IR given that the majority of trains are effectively unmanned from a passenger standpoint. Likewise many stations are unstaffed, particularly at peak times for anti-social behaviour.

[James Howard]

For the record, I don't think it is reasonable to expect small stations like Edgeworthstown to be staffed for a large part of the day if at all. It might make sense to have somebody there to sell tickets for the morning rush but with TVMs that isn't really necessary. The staff in Edgeworthstown are very much appreciated, particularly Ross Carr who used to be there on freezing winter nights with a watering can of hot water to defrost your windscreen before he died so tragically young. But sadly, we can no longer afford or expect this level of service from Irish Rail.

However, it is reasonable to expect there to be a number to call to report loitering youths, etc. The issue is that a lot of minor anti-social behaviour isn't criminal but it does cause distress and discomfort to the majority of passengers. This kind of behaviour does not merit phoning the guards but it does need to be dealt with before it escalates into more serious incidents such as we saw a few weeks ago. In cold financial terms, this level of messing also drives away customers who will just take the car where they don't have to put up with the hassle.

Irish Rail's response lately seems to be to institute alcohol bans which just affects the law-abiding majority. Personally an alcohol ban wouldn't affect me as I always have to drive when I get home, but there is no point in introducing yet more rules that will be ignored.