More of the usual guff from Varadkar and the Indo?

[James Howard]

100,000 to be hit by 'inevitable' rail strike -- Varadkar
Transport Minister predicts commuter chaos in weeks

Why would a responsible minister effectively goad a union into going on strike? The guy really is a bit of pratt - "Look at how tough I am. I don't mind if the railway goes on strike since I have an expenses paid car to get around in".

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/100000-to-be-hit-by-inevitable-rail-strike-varadkar-29913219.html

[Mark Gleeson]

Agreed, he is a right pain in the backside and not what is needed at this time

It must be noted the Minister created this problem by cutting Irish Rail's subvention again and again.

[grainne whale]

One word really sums him up 'inept'.

[James Howard]

According to the Indo he is a young rising star and a future Taoiseach. God spare us.

[Mark Gleeson]

Unions and Irish Rail presenting a very different view www.thejournal.ie/rail-strike-varadkar-1263381-Jan2014/

[James Howard]

I hope they've all come to the realisation that they can't come back to the passengers for more. From my perspective, I've effectively lost the option to leave the office at 5:30 since I can't put up with the 18:05 on a regular basis - probably I've just gone soft in my old age. With this year's fare increase, I will be paying not far from 20% more than two years ago in a deflationary environment.

Maybe it's where I sit but I think that traffic is a lot thinner on the 0545 from Sligo every morning due to the combined effects of the fare increases and capacity cutbacks. Edgeworthstown station carpark is also looking a lot quieter. I honestly can't see how this can have increased revenue. There is whiff of desperation in how heavily these 9.99 fares are being advertised at the moment.

[Jamie2k9]

Well if Unions and Irish Rail are in some sort of agreement it should be taken as excellent news. Maybe since the NBRU saw the books they were taken back down to earth and reality!

[Destructix]

Off topic but the 45 staff employed by IÉ on over 100k per year. Was their wages ever cut?

[James Howard]

Not really off-topic.

I think the real issue in Irish Rail must be the levels of staff. They still have something close to 4,500 staff running a railway that operates around 600 passenger cars and carries 36 million passenger a year.

[grainne whale]

Off topic but the 45 staff employed by IÉ on over 100k per year. Was their wages ever cut?

I doubt it and bonuses on top of that for running the worst train service in Europe.

[Mark Gleeson]

No bonuses are paid, at least three senior management positions have been culled in recent years.

Those on 100k plus are typically senior professional engineering staff and management

Thats 45 out of 3800

For the record East Cost in the UK carries 19 million a year with over 3000 staff (that does not include track maintenance/signalling staff). Irish Rail carries 37 million with 3800. Not really that bad.

Staff numbers are not the problem, its allocation and productivity of those staff

[grainne whale]

No bonuses are paid, at least three senior management positions have been culled in recent years.

Those on 100k plus are typically senior professional engineering staff and management

Thats 45 out of 3800

For the record East Cost in the UK carries 19 million a year with over 3000 staff (that does not include track maintenance/signalling staff). Irish Rail carries 37 million with 3800. Not really that bad.

Staff numbers are not the problem, its allocation and productivity of those staff Yes, you begin to realise that if you are a regular user, especially the productivity 'bit'.

[James Howard]

Are you comparing like with like though? Would I be correct in assuming that East Coast is primarily an inter-city operator and the average journey length of those 19 million would be of the order of 100 miles. The bulk of Irish Rail's operation is DART and commuter which probably has an overall average journey length of around 15 miles. This would probably give an average yield per passenger of somewhere between 5 and 10 times that of Irish Rail given the higher cost of rail travel in the UK.

Also, by comparison in Ireland, most of the trains would be a lot more heavily staffed. A typical Sligo-line train has two staff members (driver and trolley-pusher) and with a ticket collector added for maybe half of the journey. It's been a while since I took a long-distance train in the UK, but I understand that they still operate with a couple of catering staff, a train host and a ticket checker and would generally provide a full meal service.

I'll give you that the fact that track maintenance isn't included either but don't Irish Rail contract a lot of this out nowadays?

The 100k staff members is a bit of a sideshow really - paying an engineering graduate with 25 or 30 years experience 100k isn't really a major problem. She'd probably get twice or three times that running projects in Dubai.

[berneyarms]

Are you comparing like with like though? Would I be correct in assuming that East Coast is primarily an inter-city operator and the average journey length of those 19 million would be of the order of 100 miles. The bulk of Irish Rail's operation is DART and commuter which probably has an overall average journey length of around 15 miles. This would probably give an average yield per passenger of somewhere between 5 and 10 times that of Irish Rail given the higher cost of rail travel in the UK.

Also, by comparison in Ireland, most of the trains would be a lot more heavily staffed. A typical Sligo-line train has two staff members (driver and trolley-pusher) and with a ticket collector added for maybe half of the journey. It's been a while since I took a long-distance train in the UK, but I understand that they still operate with a couple of catering staff, a train host and a ticket checker and would generally provide a full meal service.

I'll give you that the fact that track maintenance isn't included either but don't Irish Rail contract a lot of this out nowadays?

The 100k staff members is a bit of a sideshow really - paying an engineering graduate with 25 or 30 years experience 100k isn't really a major problem. She'd probably get twice or three times that running projects in Dubai.

You need to be careful here with regard to the staff numbers - the catering staff in Ireland are not Irish Rail employees, but are employed by the catering company Rail Gourmet.

[Jamie2k9]

Staff numbers are not the problem, its allocation and productivity of those staff

There is room for reduction however it would require IE to receive at least 10 million to remove lots of manual LC around the network, there is still a big number. There must be 100 if not more staff being held onto because of this. Agree productivity is a problem in some areas however I think its slowly starting to improve.

Are you comparing like with like though? Would I be correct in assuming that East Coast is primarily an inter-city operator and the average journey length of those 19 million would be of the order of 100 miles. The bulk of Irish Rail's operation is DART and commuter which probably has an overall average journey length of around 15 miles. This would probably give an average yield per passenger of somewhere between 5 and 10 times that of Irish Rail given the higher cost of rail travel in the UK.

Also, by comparison in Ireland, most of the trains would be a lot more heavily staffed. A typical Sligo-line train has two staff members (driver and trolley-pusher) and with a ticket collector added for maybe half of the journey. It's been a while since I took a long-distance train in the UK, but I understand that they still operate with a couple of catering staff, a train host and a ticket checker and would generally provide a full meal service.

I'll give you that the fact that track maintenance isn't included either but don't Irish Rail contract a lot of this out nowadays?

The 100k staff members is a bit of a sideshow really - paying an engineering graduate with 25 or 30 years experience 100k isn't really a major problem. She'd probably get twice or three times that running projects in Dubai.

It's being a while since I used EC in UK but general intercity trains have the driver, the host who is the guard/ticket checker. Catering staff depend but numbers would be up to 4 or 5 on peak business services.

Here in Ireland on certain Cork, Galway, Limerick and Tralee services there is 2 if not 3 on some FC services that offer meals. Belfast has higher numbers on all services. In the UK FC traffic is big money and generally at least 2 coaches so it justifies the extra staff but over here its very limited. Might add food is much better on services in UK.

Yes East Coast is mainly IC traffic but as you say much higher fares and the fact ALL passengers pay helps, that's the problem with IE's cost base. Staffing costs and most things are probably lower in the UK to.

I don't believe IE contract a lot of it out, possibly for bigger projects that require lots of people to complete in a quick timescale but generally its completed in house.

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0203/501996-three-year-pay-cuts-for-iarnrod-eireann-staff/

Staff at Iarnród Éireann face pay cuts lasting up to three years under new cost-reduction measures negotiated at the Labour Relations Commission.

The cuts range from 1.7% of gross pay for those earning below €56,000 to 6.1% for employees earning above €100,000.

If unions accept the LRC proposals, pay cuts will run from 1 March for 28 months.

At that point, half of the pay cut will be restored for the next eight months, after which staff will return to their full original salaries.

Throughout the three years, the company will continue to pay increments and will maintain the current contributions to pension funds.

The proposals also detail arrangements for voluntary severance for a further 42 staff as part of a previously-announced redundancy scheme targeting 450 job cuts.

In the document, LRC Director of Conciliation Kevin Foley describes the latest proposals as the best possible that can be secured by negotiation to deal with what he called "the unprecedented crisis".

Iarnród Éireann staff rejected a previous set of cost-saving proposals last June.

General Secretary of the National Bus and Rail Union Dermot O'Leary said workers would be balloted on the latest proposals next week.

The document acknowledges employees' contribution in reducing operational costs from €422.5m in 2008 to €355.7m between 2008 and 2012.

During the same period, Government subvention fell by 29% with revenue falling by 15.7%.

The LRC document cites a 37% fall in staff numbers, and an increase in train services.

It says the company is seeking cost reductions of €8.5m in 2014, €6.5m in 2015, €5.8m in 2016, and €4.2m in 2017.

The extent of pay cuts will depend on the salary of the employee.

Those earning under €56,000 will lose 1.7% of basic pay with staff who receive between €56,000 and €61,999 experiencing a cut of 2.2%.

Employees earning between €62,000 and €74,999 will lose 3.3% of basic pay, while those between €75,000 and €79,999 will have their pay cut by 3.6%.

Salaries between €80,000 and €94,999 will lose 4.1% and those making between €95,000 and €99,999 will see a reduction of 5.1%.

Anyone earning above €100,000 faces a cut in basic pay of 6.1%.

An Irish Rail spokesperson said it was essential to make savings to ensure the future viability of the company, the long-term sustainability of train services for passengers and jobs for employees.

He said the delay in implementing cost-savings was costing the company €100,000 a week.

74% of staff were earning below €56,000 and would face the lowest temporary pay cut of 1.7%, he added.

The company expects to have the result of the union ballots on the proposals by 25 February.

The two other CIÉ companies, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, have also negotiated significant cost-reduction packages with their employees.


Seems reasonable, would be surprised if it's rejected.

[Inniskeen]

The savings already made are impressive and the demands being made of employees seem modest especially given that the pay reductions are time limited. Nonetheless paycuts are very difficult to sell to employees and have a negative effect on staff morale.

The disappointing aspect of Irish Rail performance in recent years has been the failure to capitalise signifigantly on a substantially upgraded network and an avalanche of new rolling stock. We need to see improved services, revenue growth and increasing passenger numbers.

[Mark Gleeson]

People quickly forget what an absolute disaster Irish Rail was back in the 1990's, train breakdowns daily, delays of several hours were routine. Minor accidents and derailments were routine

Hourly to Cork with a 2:35 journey time vs up to 3:40 journey in a Mk2d with no AC with a random pattern of trains.

Situation is far from ideal but we have come a long way and an extra 10 million passengers

[Jamie2k9]

Situation is far from ideal but we have come a long way and an extra 10 million passengers

Indeed great growth in numbers but there is always room for improvement even without costs which IE are keeping a lid on now.

We need to see improved services, revenue growth and increasing passenger numbers.

Would be interested to know the stats from the 9.99 sale, passenger increase/decrease, changes in peak/off peak customers and general patterns associated with it. It's probably the best revenue growth development in a while.

[Mark Gleeson]

9.99 promotion has now ended, don't have much data yet but nothing negative

5.99 WRC fare has led to increase in numbers but likely that overall revenue was down as the increase was not sufficient to cover the reduce revenue per ticket

[Jamie2k9]

9.99 promotion has now ended, don't have much data yet but nothing negative

5.99 WRC fare has led to increase in numbers but likely that overall revenue was down as the increase was not sufficient to cover the reduce revenue per ticket

I was under the same impression with the 9.99 had ended but its still available on all routes on the website so could be extended?

[Mark Gleeson]

I was informed that it was ending, possibly has been extended

[James Howard]

The train has seemed a little busier over the last couple of weeks. 9.99 is a great fare but it is bordering on being too cheap. Each single journey on a commuter pass from Longford is about 9.50 and involves buying 460 tickets in advance. You would think you'd get a better bulk discount.

Somebody on boards suggested that they might be better off not charging at all on the WRC as the fare revenue hardly covers ticket inspectors and security and maintenance on TVMs.

[Mark Gleeson]

WRC is a basket case.

All the singing and dancing about increased numbers is all well and good, doubling a small number is still a small number and if
a) half are travelling for free anyway
b) the rest paid 75% less than normal

You make a net loss

9.99 came with the usual restrictions and fees and was quota restricted so not always available, particularly are peak times

[Inniskeen]

"Half are travelling for free anyway" - do you mean that Irish Rail are carrying people for no reward ? Can the same argument not be made for any line ?

As far as I can see the primary categories of business on Irish Rail are

1) Commuters (heavily discounted fares + additional discounts through tax system).
2) Students (heavily discounted).
3) Social Welfare pass holders (So called "Free Travel").
4) Passengers travelling on Web/Other Promotional Fares.

Like it or not, the majority of rail users are substantially discounted. You see the WRC as a problem, others might see pretty much the whole system in the same light ! Yes the WRC is not a standout success story but neither is Dunboyne or the KRP stations.

[James Howard]

I wouldn't exactly describe commuter fares as heavily discounted. I take about 160 return journeys a year on my 3800 euro pass so Irish Rail are getting about €22 per journey. The standard day-return fare is €23.60. Most long-distance commuters work from home for a day a week, so my journey count would be about average. The tax issue is irrelevant to Irish Rail, they get the gross value of the pass. Even if I were travelling five days a week, I would still be paying something like €18 a journey.

You do kind of expect some sort of a discount when buying a year's worth of train journeys in one go. The taxsaver is the only thing that makes buying an annual pass worthwhile. For a four-day a week commuter without taxsaver, it would be cheaper to buy 4 day-returns a week rather than a monthly.

[Jamie2k9]

"Half are travelling for free anyway" - do you mean that Irish Rail are carrying people for no reward ? Can the same argument not be made for any line ?

As far as I can see the primary categories of business on Irish Rail are

1) Commuters (heavily discounted fares + additional discounts through tax system).
2) Students (heavily discounted).
3) Social Welfare pass holders (So called "Free Travel").
4) Passengers travelling on Web/Other Promotional Fares.

Like it or not, the majority of rail users are substantially discounted. You see the WRC as a problem, others might see pretty much the whole system in the same light ! Yes the WRC is not a standout success story but neither is Dunboyne or the KRP stations.

What's probably meant with the passes on the WRC is other routes cover the costs more easily with more revenue.

Railway operators in the UK operate more less with the same system except for the passes. The 9.99 fares are filling empty trains but they have to make sure they don't fill to much so extra capacity would be required and while they have cheaper fares they have increase fares for other services. Of course the 9.99 fares are probably going to attract more passengers and the hope is they can be increased in a few months and keep those passengers if they get good service now.

They must be getting on average between 30 & 50 euro per online customer route dependent, give of take the few very flexible passengers who can get it down to 20.

It's all people are prepared to pay so what are they supposed to do?

[Kilocharlie]

Commuter fares discounts:

If you take a working year of about 40 weeks or 200 days, an annual ticket from Kildare which costs 2230 works out at about about 11 euro per day. A day return to Kildare costs 22.90 so that's around a 50% discount borne by IE. So, at least in the case of Kildare, there is a substantial discount.

After 52% Taxsaver benefit the daily cost is about 5 euro per day for you travel 200 days a year.

[Traincustomer]

I was under the same impression with the 9.99 had ended but its still available on all routes on the website so could be extended?

Not being smart but an observation is that the €9.99 fare is not available on all routes as stations such as Clonmel don't have it.

A few €15.79 and €18.59 fares are available.

[berneyarms]

I wouldn't exactly describe commuter fares as heavily discounted. I take about 160 return journeys a year on my 3800 euro pass so Irish Rail are getting about €22 per journey. The standard day-return fare is €23.60. Most long-distance commuters work from home for a day a week, so my journey count would be about average. The tax issue is irrelevant to Irish Rail, they get the gross value of the pass. Even if I were travelling five days a week, I would still be paying something like €18 a journey.

You do kind of expect some sort of a discount when buying a year's worth of train journeys in one go. The taxsaver is the only thing that makes buying an annual pass worthwhile. For a four-day a week commuter without taxsaver, it would be cheaper to buy 4 day-returns a week rather than a monthly.

That depends on what route you travel - ticket prices on express routes (Cork/Belfast) are far higher than the Economy 1 and Economy 2 routes.

[James Howard]

The relative merits of commuter passes vs. day returns obviously depends on the route, but I was just pointing out that on some routes, there is very little difference in yield for Irish Rail between commuter passes and day returns.

They especially seem to have stuck the boot in for Mullingar, Edgeworthstown and Longford commuters over the last few years - largely because we have no choice. In general the differential between passes and day returns seems to drop the further from Dublin you go.

[Colm Moore]

Commuter fares discounts:

If you take a working year of about 40 weeks or 200 days, an annual ticket from Kildare which costs 2230 works out at about about 11 euro per day. A day return to Kildare costs 22.90 so that's around a 50% discount borne by IE. So, at least in the case of Kildare, there is a substantial discount.Does that just point to single / return fares being bloated?