[article] Rail user group concerned about DART overcrowding

[Mark Gleeson]

Rail user group concerned about DART overcrowding
Train travellers group responds to Irish Rail plans to run shorter off-peak trains

Christopher McKinley


Rail Users Ireland (RUI), a representative body for train travellers, has said they are concerned that running shorter DART trains during off-peak hours may lead to overcrowding.

“On paper we’ve have no formal objection what they are doing,” RUI spokesman, Mark Gleeson, said while adding that it’s appropriate for the train length to suit the number of passengers it carries.

However, he argued that there’s a very high probability people will have to stand during off-peak hours.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rail-user-group-concerned-about-dart-overcrowding-1.1521459

[ACustomer]

What worries me is that they will take a lazy approach and will not monitor overcrowding and make the necessary adjustments. Easier to leave a 2-car running on the same link most of the day.

It would seem that the only way to adjust trains is to concentrate on doing it at Bray or maybe to park up a couple of 2-car sets at Malahide off-peak. Anything else is likely to lead to en-route delays.

[Thomas J Stamp]

on drivetime last night they said they wouldnt, but thats not going to happen. it'll trundle up and down the rails all day.

barry couldnt really refute the basic point that this a disaster for the PR and Marketing dept of I.E. (headed by a Mr B. Kenny) in that they really should be aiming to fill the trains they have rather than admit defeat and cut services.

Despite all of the half hearted efforts they have employed they are in the end cutting capacity no matter how you spin it, nor what ground you are doing your spinning upon.

once you go down this road there isnt any going back either.

[berneyarms]

on drivetime last night they said they wouldnt, but thats not going to happen. it'll trundle up and down the rails all day.

barry couldnt really refute the basic point that this a disaster for the PR and Marketing dept of I.E. (headed by a Mr B. Kenny) in that they really should be aiming to fill the trains they have rather than admit defeat and cut services.

Despite all of the half hearted efforts they have employed they are in the end cutting capacity no matter how you spin it, nor what ground you are doing your spinning upon.

once you go down this road there isnt any going back either.

To be fair, the two other main transport providers in Dublin (Dublin Bus and LUAS) have cut back capacity as well. Both cut back frequency.

The reality is that the demand has fallen - IE probably should have done this sooner, but I imagine the challenge was getting a set of links together that would deliver this.

From what I gather the sets are being swapped at both Connolly and Bray, rather than being split, so if the demand is higher, it ought to be reasonably possible to retain the longer sets in service if required.

[Inniskeen]

This is the right move for a lot of reasons notably economy, security and reduction in vandalism. Near empty eight car trains rattling around on late evening services has been a scandal for years affording no benefit to anybody other than those engaging in anti-social behaviour and vandalism.

A two-car DART is probably adequate for most off-peak services although there will inevitably be some overcrowding caused by relatively minor variations in traffic. Having said that, it is an urban transport system and a proportion of standing passengers in and approaching the city centre shouldn't be that big a deal.

While commercial reality and common sense support the reduction in set sizes at this time, it is disturbing that the DART service is no longer attacting the patronage to justify 4-car sets at off-peak periods. Four car sets were introduced off peak in the late 1980s due to demand.

If I were the DART operator I would also be trying to identify why the service has lost it sheen. Is it price, reliability, journey time, accessibility, security, the condition of stations, improved road infrastructure, better bus services ?

Per AECOM and the CSO, DART patronage (in 2011) appears to have been around 16 million journeys per annum, similar to usage way back in in 1987 (prior to fleet expansion and the Malahide and Greystones extensions). In 2011 Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare suburban services accounted for a further 12 million journeys split roughly 6, 4 and 2 million respectively.

[James Howard]

I was just saying that last night - it is highly odd that the main urban rail service in a city the size of Dublin can only sustain 2-car service every 15 minutes off-peak. Personally, I think it is down to lack of frequency. The frequency of the bus service on nearby corridors is far higher than that of the DART. It also doesn't help that the city centre DART stations are not exactly in convenient locations.

But basic demand would also have made a huge difference. In the 80's there was no Sandyford, Dundrum, Liffey Valley, etc., taking traffic out of the city centre. In addition, a huge proportion of the younger people who would be using public transport to go out at night are now living in the city centre. Even if they were going out, the days of the pubs closing at roughly the same time as the last bus/DART are long past so people wouldn't be bothered with taking the DART in if they can't get it home. This is a common feature of Irish public-sector transport with the partial exception of Bus Éireann - everyone seems to want to get to bed early.

Finally, there used to be feeder buses for the DART which are long gone.

[Thomas J Stamp]

This is the right move for a lot of reasons notably economy, security and reduction in vandalism. Near empty eight car trains rattling around on late evening services has been a scandal for years affording no benefit to anybody other than those engaging in anti-social behaviour and vandalism.

A two-car DART is probably adequate for most off-peak services although there will inevitably be some overcrowding caused by relatively minor variations in traffic. Having said that, it is an urban transport system and a proportion of standing passengers in and approaching the city centre shouldn't be that big a deal.

While commercial reality and common sense support the reduction in set sizes at this time, it is disturbing that the DART service is no longer attacting the patronage to justify 4-car sets at off-peak periods. Four car sets were introduced off peak in the late 1980s due to demand.

If I were the DART operator I would also be trying to identify why the service has lost it sheen. Is it price, reliability, journey time, accessibility, security, the condition of stations, improved road infrastructure, better bus services ?

Per AECOM and the CSO, DART patronage (in 2011) appears to have been around 16 million journeys per annum, similar to usage way back in in 1987 (prior to fleet expansion and the Malahide and Greystones extensions). In 2011 Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare suburban services accounted for a further 12 million journeys split roughly 6, 4 and 2 million respectively.


this is the point, and it is not just applicable to the DART - although it is understandable that it is getting most of the attention. It is accepted that having an 8 car whizzing about in the evening is silly, surely a 4-car is better than a 2 car though. After all, where can you go after a 2-car? No car.

The same applies to the time period between 10am and 5pm - surely a 4-car is better in this period than a 2-car.

I still remember a russian lad i knew in my student days gazing at the DART timetable and being astounded at what we thought was a great frequency of service but he was saying was unacceptable. That was the mid 90's, and the gaps are wider now.

It goes back to basics. An awfull lot of people stand in exposed places for long periods of time (and time is as such a mental concept) for a DART to find the train isnt as big as it was. Its off putting. Like I said to Barry Kenny, it only takes that one straw to break the camels back and you'll have regular users just giving up on it.

No matter the economic situation, and we know enough about its realities at this stage, the simple matter is that it is possible to attract enough passengers to use at the very least 4-car DARTS off peak in enough numbers to make it a viable service.

You have two options. Attract more passengers and if you fail to do that, you cut the service. Irish Rail have failed to attract more passengers so they have cut the service. You can dress it up whatever way you like, but thats the bottom line.

[Mark Gleeson]

Complaints already in

1. Significant increase in crowding in peak conditions
2. Use of 2 coach trains on the very edge of the peak
3. Forcing passengers to change between long and short trains at Connolly and Bray

[dowlingm]

The Toronto subway and regional rail systems run full consists all day. But they have bus feed.

[Thomas J Stamp]

DART hasnt had a proper bus feed in yonks, and damning as it is that the two branches of the state transport company in the city cannot do that simple thing right, it is beside the point.

the point is that a regular modern commuter/mass transit rail service with no competition off peak on its north side (try waiting for a 31/32 in the winter) is so bereft of passengers that the operator is cutting capacity by 50%

the fact that some people think this is a good thing is a ringing endorsement for the PR department. Pity they cant get passengers though.

[ACustomer]

In an earlier post I said that Bray was the only really good location to shorten or lengthen trains. But they seem to be doing this by using Bray as a changing point if you are traveling to/from Greystones: why not use the 50% of trains which terminate at Bray. thus avoiding breaks of journey?

As for changing trains at Connolly this is totally unacceptable, symptomatic of a railway which is run for the convenience of those who operate it rather than the customers.

[shweeney]

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86485568&postcount=55

4 car sets running at peak times...

also the commuter/intercity trains are still not using the stop boards - had to sprint the length of Pearce to catch a 3-car Wexford train.

[Mark Gleeson]

Infighting with Dublin Bus killed the DART's long term growth potential, there was meant to be a dense set of feeder routes, even through ticketing but either it didn't happen or has been cut back since.

Only the 114 and 102 remain really.

[dowlingm]

Is there anything to be said for closing one or two inner stations like Killester to shorten times from outer stops? Or is that just a case of
http://p.twimg.com/AvXE9DOCAAIUBr4.jpg:large

[Inniskeen]

Not sure feeder buses are necessarily the answer to falling DART numbers. The original feeder bus operation was a waste of time and a drain on railway resources with minimal usage and continuous complaints about buses pulling away just as passengers were approaching off supposedly connecting DART services.

[dowlingm]

Feeder buses as implemented in Dublin previously shouldn't preclude another go, perhaps operated by one of the private operators NTA wants to give 10pc of routes to. The trick is to, as you say, sync them to the trains with enough flex to allow for reasonable connections and not a standalone timetable.

I would actually be more concentrating on feeding the outer ends of the system to maximize passenger-km transferred to rail, especially given a stated intent to extend DART to Balbriggan.

[Inniskeen]

Feeding the outer end of the system sounds good in theory (and works in other cities). Problem in Dublin is that DART is neither fast (average speed about 20 mph) or particularly frequent. There is greater growth potential in the longer distance commuter services but while these need to be faster they don't necessarily require to run at the same intense frequency that is required for an inner suburban service.

Some radical thinking may be required such as building a separate Luas line to serve inner suburban locations, for example the area between Clontarf Road and Howth Junction. The LUAS might then continue to Howth along the existing railway route where trams would probably make better headway than the existing DART service as well as being more frequent. DART would then operate express Clontarf Road to Howth Junction and onwards to Dublin Airport as well as Skerries/Balbriggan or beyond. Most places get a better service either in terms of increased frequency, reduced journey times or both. An airport branch becomes a realistic option with frequent fast trains to the city centre. Journey time to the Airport or Malahide would be 15 minutes with major feeder bus or Luas operations serving the areas around Howth Junction, Clongriffin, Malahide, Donabate, Skerries and Balbriggan for instance.

Although passengers on the Howth branch would have to change from tram to train they would benefit from the greater sccrssibility and frequency Luas would afford without necessarily suffering an increased journey time.

As for the immediate future Irish Rail and the NTA should be required to publish loading criteria which should not be routinely breached, e.g a DART should not be more than 65% overloaded for 10% of it's journey or 100% overloaded for more than 5% of it's journey or some such formula. Maybe the numbers would be a little different at peak periods. Overloaded in this context means excess of passengers to seats not crush-load.

[longword]

Infighting with Dublin Bus killed the DART's long term growth potential, there was meant to be a dense set of feeder routes, even through ticketing but either it didn't happen or has been cut back since.

Only the 114 and 102 remain really.

The ghost of the 90 can still be spotted the odd morning if you have the patience of a saint - they make sure to keep it off the realtime bus displays though.

On the miniature DARTs, I find they're not consistently using the stop boards at Tara and Pearse Southbound. Even when they do those boards are waaaay too far down the platform particularly with the secondary entrances closed off-peak. There's zero guidance for the customers either; a bit of surprise exercise is probably good for most of us but pity the poor customer with limited mobility.

[berneyarms]

The 90, 102, 111 and 114 are all DART feeder services.

[berneyarms]

In an earlier post I said that Bray was the only really good location to shorten or lengthen trains. But they seem to be doing this by using Bray as a changing point if you are traveling to/from Greystones: why not use the 50% of trains which terminate at Bray. thus avoiding breaks of journey?

As for changing trains at Connolly this is totally unacceptable, symptomatic of a railway which is run for the convenience of those who operate it rather than the customers.

I would assume that all of the trains are being changed at Bray already - realistically this switch to 2-car operation cannot be done without swapping passengers over at Bray and Connolly.

As long as the switches are cross-platform, I'm not sure what the huge issue is with this.

[Mark Gleeson]

No excuses for forcing passengers to change trains

You can split trains at any terminus

[berneyarms]

this is the point, and it is not just applicable to the DART - although it is understandable that it is getting most of the attention. It is accepted that having an 8 car whizzing about in the evening is silly, surely a 4-car is better than a 2 car though. After all, where can you go after a 2-car? No car.

The same applies to the time period between 10am and 5pm - surely a 4-car is better in this period than a 2-car.

I still remember a russian lad i knew in my student days gazing at the DART timetable and being astounded at what we thought was a great frequency of service but he was saying was unacceptable. That was the mid 90's, and the gaps are wider now.

It goes back to basics. An awfull lot of people stand in exposed places for long periods of time (and time is as such a mental concept) for a DART to find the train isnt as big as it was. Its off putting. Like I said to Barry Kenny, it only takes that one straw to break the camels back and you'll have regular users just giving up on it.

No matter the economic situation, and we know enough about its realities at this stage, the simple matter is that it is possible to attract enough passengers to use at the very least 4-car DARTS off peak in enough numbers to make it a viable service.

You have two options. Attract more passengers and if you fail to do that, you cut the service. Irish Rail have failed to attract more passengers so they have cut the service. You can dress it up whatever way you like, but thats the bottom line.

It would be interesting to know whether this off-peak configuration actually would have also worked during the boom years.

As with most companies, it probably never entered into the company's thinking at the time.

I suspect that certainly in the evenings, a 2-car DART would have been sufficient even then. The loads do drop off. Whether they would have worked during the day, difficult to tell.

I would certainly agree that they need to be very careful in terms of monitoring the loads - if people are being left behind that frankly is unacceptable.

[James Howard]

Changing trains at Connolly isn't a big problem for most of the self-loading freight. However, it is a pain for wheelchair users and could be a source of delays if they can't get staff there with ramps quickly enough.

To me, it shows a lack of respect for the customers. Basically, it gives the impression that the company is operating for its own convenience rather than that of its customers. It could lead to a very negative experience if you were made get off a busy 4 or 6 car service and crammed into a 2 car service.

[berneyarms]

Changing trains at Connolly isn't a big problem for most of the self-loading freight. However, it is a pain for wheelchair users and could be a source of delays if they can't get staff there with ramps quickly enough.

To me, it shows a lack of respect for the customers. Basically, it gives the impression that the company is operating for its own convenience rather than that of its customers. It could lead to a very negative experience if you were made get off a busy 4 or 6 car service and crammed into a 2 car service.

I'm not really sure how else it could effectively be done.

You could only swap at Bray, because otherwise you would have lots of dead running to Howth or Malahide, which would negate any cost savings, requiring extra drivers and fuel costs, which would make the exercise rather pointless.

[Mark Gleeson]

We don't see what is so difficult arriving Greystones or Howth splitting the train in half, leave the second portion behind.

Next long train arrives into other platform and is shutdown and driver takes the remainder of the first train back.

Reverse procedure to make up to full length.

Seen it done in Bray on many a time.

Forcing passengers to change enroute is a breach of NTA contract as its a timetable change without approval

[James Howard]

Meanwhile, by forcing passengers to change at Connolly and randomly incurring 5 minutes delays while they find somebody to get a ramp, they drive customers away and reduce revenue. Bear in mind that if they do this northbound, probably at least 70% of the passengers will only have been on since Pearse or Tara St., making it doubly annoying.

If I lived in Dublin I wouldn't touch any of the public transport - particularly the DART. I was perfectly happy cycling 15 miles each way to work when I did live in Dublin. However, cycling from Longford is a bit much and it isn't an option for everyone.

[James Howard]

Is there a particular reason why Irish Rail seem so adverse to train splitting? The same could very easily be done for every Sligo service in Longford. They have the space to store trains, and there is probably only one or two services per week than need more than three cars after Longford.

I suppose they would need an extra driver to do the shunting but that has got to be cheaper than running up unnecessary miles on ICRs.

[berneyarms]

We don't see what is so difficult arriving Greystones or Howth splitting the train in half, leave the second portion behind.

Next long train arrives into other platform and is shutdown and driver takes the remainder of the first train back.

Reverse procedure to make up to full length.

Seen it done in Bray on many a time.

Forcing passengers to change enroute is a breach of NTA contract as its a timetable change without approval

One presumes that won't deliver the cost savings they need. Nor would it facilitate a switch to 2-car operation as most peak hour trains are 6 or 8 car.

As for the NTA - how do you know whether they have approved this or not? I would consider this an operational matter for the railway company, rather than a breach of contract.

Train swapping at Connolly has been happening for quite some time - it's not something particularly new.

[Mark Gleeson]

All timetable changes must be approved by the NTA

At least 4 DART services have been changed in the evening and now require a change. This is internally scheduled by Irish Rail, but it is not shown in the station or online timetables.

This is a timetable change, the service does not operate as per the published and approved timetable. It is not a once off operational need.

[berneyarms]

All timetable changes must be approved by the NTA

At least 4 DART services have been changed in the evening and now require a change. This is internally scheduled by Irish Rail, but it is not shown in the station or online timetables.

This is a timetable change, the service does not operate as per the published and approved timetable. It is not a once off operational need.

Frankly on this one I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Why would you show it on the platform? It will only confuse people who might not realise that a second train is taking over from Connolly onwards, and therefore not get on the train.

As I say, set swapping has happened for some considerable time at Connolly on at least two southbound trains in the morning and I've never heard you utter a word about it.

I would be far more focussed on the capacity issues where they exist. That is the bigger issue right now.

[Colm Moore]

I don't think there is a huge problem if the service is genuinely quiet and it is a straightforward cross-platform change.

Changing at Connolly isn't great - while it can be cross platform, it is also at a point where there are many passengers (certainly relative to train size and therefore number of doors) and the platforms are curved, which are less than ideal for loading and unloading in a prompt fashion. Not only is there the hassle of the change, but there is also the delay - it isn't just wheelchair users, everyone will be slightly slower than at a straight platform, especially people with small children, luggage, shopping, tourists, etc.

[berneyarms]

I don't think there is a huge problem if the service is genuinely quiet and it is a straightforward cross-platform change.

Changing at Connolly isn't great - while it can be cross platform, it is also at a point where there are many passengers (certainly relative to train size and therefore number of doors) and the platforms are curved, which are less than ideal for loading and unloading in a prompt fashion. Not only is there the hassle of the change, but there is also the delay - it isn't just wheelchair users, everyone will be slightly slower than at a straight platform, especially people with small children, luggage, shopping, tourists, etc.

Again, though I'd make the point - this has been happening for several years every weekday morning, and not one word has been uttered here about it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Sadly capacity is not a contract condition, but the timetable is. That gives us the wedge to use against Irish Rail, and unlike standing room only this is black and white.

If the timetable is restored to the contractually approved state, that results in longer trains.

Only thing Irish Rail really understands is the threat of legal action.

[berneyarms]

Sadly capacity is not a contract condition, but the timetable is. That gives us the wedge to use against Irish Rail, and unlike standing room only this is black and white.

If the timetable is restored to the contractually approved state, that results in longer trains.

Only thing Irish Rail really understands is the threat of legal action.

Indeed but for how long?

The company is under political pressure to cut costs.

I can't imagine the Minister being too impressed by another arm of the state asking them to effectively increase costs again.

I would suggest it is far more useful to come up with a list of problem trains and fight it from that angle, rather than be arguing over a rather petty observation of the timetable.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have the list of trains already.

We will hold Irish Rail to account, to ensure they meet all legal, contractual and safety obligations. That's the quickest way to get results and it has served us well for many years. There is no wiggle room or excuses, comply or else.

Its great fun to watch Irish Rail turn about face when the Rail Safety Commission or National Transport Authority demand a change, particularly after we had raised a query.

[berneyarms]

We have the list of trains already.

We will hold Irish Rail to account, to ensure they meet all legal, contractual and safety obligations. That's the quickest way to get results and it has served us well for many years. There is no wiggle room or excuses, comply or else.

Its great fun to watch Irish Rail turn about face when the Rail Safety Commission or National Transport Authority demand a change, particularly after we had raised a query.

I don't think that this should be about you having "fun" - it's about getting the demand pattern changed.

As it happens, that may not be impacted at all by the swaps at Connolly, as there may not be crowding implications, but it may be needed on other journeys.

Going after them on the Connolly swaps because they're not in the timetable, and viewing it as "fun", is frankly rather childish - far better to engage with them in a constructive manner and get the sets reorganised on the trains that are suffering capacity problems.

[Mark Gleeson]

You are dealing with Irish Rail here, they do not listen, they do not react. After the lies and verbal abuse from some inside Irish Rail we have learned the best path to get/force solutions for passengers. It might seem unconventional but it works as it focuses on clear cut yes/no cases which cannot be hidden or buried in a slick sound bite.

We are waiting on Irish Rail management to reply to the issues raised and rather than wait we have asked the National Transport Authority to confirm the timetable changes are approved as required, evidence says no.

At this time we expect
1. NTA will demand operation of the timetable as published
2. Restoration of 4 car service on 18:00 ex Greystones
3. Restoration of 6 car service on 17:30 ex Malahide & 17:45 ex Howth

In the final analysis the guilty party is the National Transport Authority for not specifying capacity and overcrowding limits in the contract, that gives Irish Rail free reign to do just about anything provided it looks like the published timetable.

And for the record I am a near daily passenger on the 17:30 ex Malahide

[James Howard]

I can't see why you can't take pleasure out of Irish Rail being forced to take account of your reasonable suggestions. If they refuse to engage constructively, then the only remaining option is to use their regulator to force them to stick to the letter of the rules.

Using 2-car service for a train leaving the city centre before 7 PM or less than 6 for a 6 PM train is quite frankly absurd. I know Irish Rail office staff probably get to leave on the dot of 5 PM, but for those of us who work in the real world, it is quite normal to have to stay on to 6:30, 7 or later and this is bound to still be a relatively busy service.

Heaven forbid we might want to contribute to the city's economy by nipping into town to do a bit of shopping after work.

[berneyarms]

I can't see why you can't take pleasure out of Irish Rail being forced to take account of your reasonable suggestions. If they refuse to engage constructively, then the only remaining option is to use their regulator to force them to stick to the letter of the rules.

Using 2-car service for a train leaving the city centre before 7 PM or less than 6 for a 6 PM train is quite frankly absurd. I know Irish Rail office staff probably get to leave on the dot of 5 PM, but for those of us who work in the real world, it is quite normal to have to stay on to 6:30, 7 or later and this is bound to still be a relatively busy service.

Heaven forbid we might want to contribute to the city's economy by nipping into town to do a bit of shopping after work.

I don't necessarily disagree about your comments on set utilisation - in fact I think that you are completely right about that - but I think that stating that one takes the view that catching them out as "fun" frankly makes the person concerned look rather childish to say the least.

I've managed to have interactions with the various transport companies over the years and achieved some results, and I have never had experienced the negative reactions referred to in Mark's post above. But we're all different I suppose.

[Jamie2k9]

I don't necessarily disagree about your comments on set utilisation - in fact I think that you are completely right about that - but I think that stating that one takes the view that catching them out as "fun" frankly makes the person concerned look rather childish to say the least.

I've managed to have interactions with the various transport companies over the years and achieved some results, and I have never had experienced the negative reactions referred to in Mark's post above. But we're all different I suppose.

It takes a lot for IE to listen and make changes, they either learn the hard way or come under major pressure from people to change things. Staff within IE will even admit that once the operations department set a train route/ size they will not change unless they are forced to.

[dowlingm]

If the changes are reasonable and necessary why not go through the process with NTA rather than gonzo it and risk a complaint?

Mind you this is the crowd who caused a major stink by changing the timetable a few years back before the necessary rostering change had been signed off on.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I don't necessarily disagree about your comments on set utilisation - in fact I think that you are completely right about that - but I think that stating that one takes the view that catching them out as "fun" frankly makes the person concerned look rather childish to say the least.

I've managed to have interactions with the various transport companies over the years and achieved some results, and I have never had experienced the negative reactions referred to in Mark's post above. But we're all different I suppose.

well, we have experienced plenty of hostility, resistance and aggression, both passive and active. not to mention paranoia. We've been in this game for ten years now and whilst there is a wind of change in attitude in the company in the air, it is hardly blowing strong.

BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

[Jamie2k9]

BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

Nothing new with the 7.10, anytime it breaks down they never bother with a transfer just move to the 7.50 service. It's fine to let 70-100 passengers waiting in Carlow/Athy for 70 minutes. These customers who pay very high fares and lets be honest keep the company going like most other commuter towns along IC routes.

[grainne whale]

Nothing new with the 7.10, anytime it breaks down they never bother with a transfer just move to the 7.50 service. It's fine to let 70-100 passengers waiting in Carlow/Athy for 70 minutes. These customers who pay very high fares and lets be honest keep the company going like most other commuter towns along IC routes. What's that you were saying about breakdowns on IR not being a regular occurrance.

[berneyarms]

well, we have experienced plenty of hostility, resistance and aggression, both passive and active. not to mention paranoia. We've been in this game for ten years now and whilst there is a wind of change in attitude in the company in the air, it is hardly blowing strong.

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!


BTW - Waterford train broke down in KK this morning, passengers "will" be put on the next train. There are almost daily breakdowns of 22K's now.

What's that you were saying about breakdowns on IR not being a regular occurance.

I think that there's a bit of exaggeration going on here. There are hardly "daily" failures.

There was one particular day in July when everything that could go wrong on a railway, when a fatality, breakdown and signalling failure all happened on the same day - that frankly was highly unusual. I would add that does not excuse the poor handling of the situation, which was shambolic to say the least.

There was the recent failure two weeks ago which blocked the line at Hazelhatch. Again that was unfortunate.

Those combined with the train failing yesterday are unfortunate, but it is hardly the case that the trains are failing every day. I'm not sure there is a transport company anywhere (be it a bus, train or airline) that doesn't experience some disruption due to technical issues at some stage - no it shouldn't happen, but last time I checked we don't live in some artificial utopia of perfection either.

[grainne whale]

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!





I think that there's a bit of exaggeration going on here. There are hardly "daily" failures.

There was one particular day in July when everything that could go wrong on a railway, when a fatality, breakdown and signalling failure all happened on the same day - that frankly was highly unusual. I would add that does not excuse the poor handling of the situation, which was shambolic to say the least.

There was the recent failure two weeks ago which blocked the line at Hazelhatch. Again that was unfortunate.

Those combined with the train failing yesterday are unfortunate, but it is hardly the case that the trains are failing every day. I'm not sure there is a transport company anywhere (be it a bus, train or airline) that doesn't experience some disruption due to technical issues at some stage - no it shouldn't happen, but last time I checked we don't live in some artificial utopia of perfection either. Unfortunate is no use when you are a regular commuter and you are try to get in and out to/from work on time. I am referring to breakdowns, signalling failures, and trains running late. A train running up to 10mins. late is apparently ontime according to IR. Oh and today there was ANOTHER signalling failure on the Cork line, one of work colleagues who commutes from Thurles arrived late for work today - disruptions are quite common. :p

[berneyarms]

Unfortunate is no use when you are a regular commuter and you are try to get in and out to/from work on time. I am referring to breakdowns, signalling failures, and trains running late. A train running up to 10mins. late is apparently ontime according to IR. Oh and today there was ANOTHER signalling failure on the Cork line, one of work colleagues who commutes from Thurles arrived late for work today - disruptions are quite common. :p

Indeed but I don't it is realistic to everything to work like clockwork every single day of the year (which from your posts you seem to do) - that just doesn't happen anywhere. That day in July was just bizarre to say the least - it was a day when everything conspired against the railway running properly, and frankly the railway did fail their customers.

I would expect things to work properly the majority of the time, which to be fair they would appear to do, but you do have to allow for something occasionally going wrong. Again we don't live in utopia.

I would ask how are you defining "quite common"?

[grainne whale]

Indeed but I don't it is realistic to everything to work like clockwork every single day of the year (which from your posts you seem to do) - that just doesn't happen anywhere. That day in July was just bizarre to say the least - it was a day when everything conspired against the railway running properly, and frankly the railway did fail their customers.

I would expect things to work properly the majority of the time, which to be fair they would appear to do, but you do have to allow for something occasionally going wrong. Again we don't live in utopia.

I would ask how are you defining "quite common"?
quite common = common enough

[berneyarms]

quite common = common enough

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to stand over it.

A vague statement like that could mean once a week, once a fortnight, once a month, once every few months.

That's being deliberately vague.

[James Howard]

I find the general reliability on the Sligo line (Longford commuter) to be excellent and it is a lot better than it was a few years ago where we used to have to put up with 10-15 minute delays every single evening during leaf-slip season. I would estimate on the trains that I take, I get half-hour delays 3 or 4 times a year, and 10 minute delays around once a month. I normally take the 0545 from Sligo and the 1805 to Longford.

However, when something does go wrong, Irish Rail are comically useless at dealing with it - and they have got worse over the years. I guess this is because of the reduced number of staff on the line these days. This is something that they really could work on and any pressure that can be applied to Irish Rail to do this would be welcome.

If they are not prepared to play nicely, then using the NTA and the letter of the law in order to make things better is all well and fine. Just because things are reasonably good doesn't mean that they couldn't be better. For example, the Sligo line had close to 99% on-time last month. It would be well worth looking at getting these targets tightened or the timetable times made quicker.

[James Howard]

Of course, that'll teach me. The 1805 to Longford is stuck in Maynooth behind a failed train. Not expecting a quick resolution

[grainne whale]

Of course, that'll teach me. The 1805 to Longford is stuck in Maynooth behind a failed train. Not expecting a quick resolution
I'd better let 'berneyarms' know :eek: He/she seems to think that disruption only happens occasionally.

[James Howard]

I know nothing about what goes on out of Hueston - I've only travelled 4 times a week from Edgeworthstown to Dublin for the last 9 years. But major disruption on the Sligo line that affects me is generally reasonably rare. Unfortunately when major problems do happen, it is fair to say that they are not handled with aplomb.

It does seem to go wrong disproportionately often on Wednesdays which is fine for me as I rarely go to Dublin on Wednesdays.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to stand over it.

A vague statement like that could mean once a week, once a fortnight, once a month, once every few months.

That's being deliberately vague.


almost daily = almost every day. check out cancellations/delays from "mechanical faults" on irish rails twitter account.

bear in mind that our network is actually quite small when you're doing it, and that we report real life issues which happen to real life people and try not to just engage in rethoric in trying to explain such things away.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Well all I can again say is that I've never experienced or indeed heard any of that (other than hearing the former Chairman) over my 20 years being in contact in the various organisations, but again maybe that's down to personalities on either side.

My real point was that firstly that I felt that an official spokesperson of a user group looks rather childish if he expresses the view in public that he views it as "fun" to catch out organisations - I think that just makes the organisation look daft!! The second point was that more (I would think) would be gained from focussing on the DARTs with capacity issues and addressing that, rather than wasting time with the NTA on changeovers at Connolly that may not have any capacity issues in the first place!!



you seem to have a real hang up with that "fun" word. I am not sure by which former chairman you mean, so I will guess its Derek. The thing is, even I, a much cooler and more detatched sort of chap than Derek was, have personally experianced this sort of stuff. Instead of personalities, maybe its the context. In 10 years we have gone from being suspected of being a front for ILDA to having regular meetings with IE managers and having our input recognised and doing things in partnership with IE. Things like input into the timetable (before the general public does) and RUI members being the first to use the IE smartcard on testing runs.

But it is only honest to mention that in that time a lot of the old managers in IE have moved on too, people who wouldnt recognise any form of passeger representation group and who even went as far as to try to set up "local rail groups" who were all closed down when they got a bit too honest and vocal.

We now find that the managment in IE are more focused on passengers and the commercial realities that the company now exists in. Heretofore it was meeting lifers who knew that even if nobody was on a service that it would run at the same time, with the same staff, and the same stock, as it always did. That said, it is not perfect, and some of the things which happen are annoying. We will hear of frozen points in the coming winter season because they havent put in point heaters. We will hear of heating not working in trains, of blocked toilets, of non existant staff when things go wrong, of the PIS not working, showing the wrong train, showing the wrong direction. Of late trains, of no announcements regarding refunds, of cancelled trains without notice.

Sure, its maybe small stuff to what we were looking at when formed, and sure, there will always be the rumours going about on closing lines and such like, but they are all important. It only takes ones straw to break the camels back and that lost passenger will not only not return but he/she will waste no time telling their family/friends why.

[berneyarms]

you seem to have a real hang up with that "fun" word. I am not sure by which former chairman you mean, so I will guess its Derek. The thing is, even I, a much cooler and more detatched sort of chap than Derek was, have personally experianced this sort of stuff. Instead of personalities, maybe its the context. In 10 years we have gone from being suspected of being a front for ILDA to having regular meetings with IE managers and having our input recognised and doing things in partnership with IE. Things like input into the timetable (before the general public does) and RUI members being the first to use the IE smartcard on testing runs.

But it is only honest to mention that in that time a lot of the old managers in IE have moved on too, people who wouldnt recognise any form of passeger representation group and who even went as far as to try to set up "local rail groups" who were all closed down when they got a bit too honest and vocal.

We now find that the managment in IE are more focused on passengers and the commercial realities that the company now exists in. Heretofore it was meeting lifers who knew that even if nobody was on a service that it would run at the same time, with the same staff, and the same stock, as it always did. That said, it is not perfect, and some of the things which happen are annoying. We will hear of frozen points in the coming winter season because they havent put in point heaters. We will hear of heating not working in trains, of blocked toilets, of non existant staff when things go wrong, of the PIS not working, showing the wrong train, showing the wrong direction. Of late trains, of no announcements regarding refunds, of cancelled trains without notice.

Sure, its maybe small stuff to what we were looking at when formed, and sure, there will always be the rumours going about on closing lines and such like, but they are all important. It only takes ones straw to break the camels back and that lost passenger will not only not return but he/she will waste no time telling their family/friends why.

I meant the Chairman of CIE and not RUI - Dr Lynch. I was referring to my experiences with people in the operating companies. He was the only individual that I have come across (albeit indirectly) as aggressive.

I do have a hang-up with the "fun" word yes - because the context in which it was used makes it look as if you're on an ego trip rather than actually genuinely trying to get things fixed in a constructive way.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think that there's a need for that sort of language or attitude, as it really sounds unprofessional and does not become a group that is supposed to be a representative organisation.

I take on board the rest of your points - very constructively put!

[berneyarms]

I'd better let 'berneyarms' know :eek: He/she seems to think that disruption only happens occasionally.

Murphy's law strikes, but I still think you are exaggerating somewhat, and at the same time seem to expect that nothing will ever go wrong!

[grainne whale]

Murphy's law strikes, but I still think you are exaggerating somewhat, and at the same time seem to expect that nothing will ever go wrong!That's correct - we have alot of Murphy's in this country, so it strikes quite frequently with IR, considering we really don't have a large rail network.:rolleyes:

[Colm Moore]

I find the general reliability on the Sligo line (Longford commuter) to be excellent and it is a lot better than it was a few years ago The line was saturated, with all slots used. They moved two of the trains from Sligo to different times, reducing pressure.

[James Howard]

Yep - the 1700 from Sligo was a disaster. It had to cross with either 5 or 6 trains and most of those were between Longford and Maynooth - I think there was only one crossing point where it didn't cross with another train.

The effect has been rather dramatic. Most of time since they moved this to 1800, I arrive into Edgeworthstown 3 or 4 minutes early in the evening.

[shweeney]

going back to the Dart discussion...

In other countries they tell you on the station displays if a train is going to be short. I've seen IE trialling something similar on the new displays in Pearse (some months back, around the same time they initially put up the stop boards) but these new displays (with white LEDs) are now permanently switched off...

the train I generally get in the evenings, the 17.40 to Wexford, consistently ignores the stop boards and always pulls to the end of the platform (its generally a 4-car commuter or occasionally a 3-car intercity).