Recomend a good solicitor

[scooby]

Can anyone recomend a good solicitor to fight an unjust evasion charge
preferably someone who has delt with irish rail before

I hope it is no breaking any rules to ask for this

[Jamie2k9]

Why was the fine unjust?

[Mark Gleeson]

For legal reasons we can't really give any recommendations or allow recommendations for this kind of thing

We are very happy to discuss in public or private your issue and review the situation. We have a very deep knowledge of the rules and procedures.

[Thomas Ralph]

If you'd like to specify the journey you were making, the ticket (if any) you had, and the stage of matters things have reached, we might be able to help.

[scooby]

Well in my honest opinion it was absolutly unjust
I went to a station 2 weeks ago for my journey to work when i got there it was unmanned security shutters down
I tried to get a ticket from the vending machine but it just kept spitting the money back out nothing came up on the screen it just would not take the note
I went back inside to see if there was anyone about the barriers were open and the machine display said no ticket required

I got on the dart thinking i could pay at pearse like i have done before
When i got off at pearse i immediatly went to the guy at the barrier and explained that the booking office in the station was closed and that the machine rejected my money which i showed him. And I asked for a ticket
he said was was not allowed to sell me a ticket and said i would have to go over to a little office on the far side of the tracks which i did

I rang the bell and waited till the guy arrived and I explained again that the station was closed and i needed a ticket
you cant imagine how shocked I was when he said he was giving me a penalty fare for not having a ticket
i said i would not accept his penalty ticket as it was irish rails fault I had no ticket as i could not buy one despite trying in the station ,at the machine and in pearse
There was no changing this guys mind i did not have a ticket and that was that i was a fare evader
I took great exception to being accused of trying to evade the fare after it was me who went to them to buy a ticket
I asked for the gardai to be called as i was not going to give him my name i would only give it to the gardai as i has done nothing wrong ( in my opinion)
A guard arrived and she tried to tell me to just accept the fine and then appeal it
I declined her offer to accept the fine and she demanded my name and address which i gave her and she said i was free to go

She then gave my details to the irish rail worker
Even after all this i still went downstairs and bought the ticket as i needed
it for work i get reimbursed for all traved expenses but i have to give in the ticket as a recipt

I wrote a strongly worded letter of complaint to customer services and registered delivery to customer services irish rail on 16th

on 22nd i got a fine in the post demanding €150 dated the 18th €100 for evasion and €50 for not giving my details
this letter said i while carring out their dutys revenue protection officers found me to be without a ticket :eek: ( I went to them )
it said i had 21 days to appeal

on the 24th i appealed to the revenue protection addressed on the fine by registered post just so i could say that i tried everything

The real sting in the tail came also on 24th i received a letter rejicting my appeal dated the 22nd thats 2 days before i sent the appeal

So now im in the unhappy position of looking for a solicitor to defend me should this go to court

I cannot express how utterly disgusted I am with the treatment i have recieved at the hands of irish rail and this shoddy attempt at a shake down
the accusation of being a fare evader and the attempted extortion of €150
with threats of court action if i dont just pay up

all backed up by an phantom appeals process which has already rejected your appeal before you even make it

Sorry about the long post folks but i really need to get this out of my system

[Colm Moore]

You don't mention which station.

Strictly speaking, you should have a ticket. However, in the circumstances, it would appear that it was impossible and the sign on the ticket gate suggested you could travel without one.

Did you happen to take any pictures?

Ask for the CCTV of the day to be retained as well as the logs for the ticket vending machine and the ticket barriers.

Well in my honest opinion it was absolutly unjust
I went to a station 2 weeks ago for my journey to work when i got there it was unmanned security shutters down There is the argument that the station was unattended and there is no legal obligation to use the ticket machines. However, that argument is weak and I would be loathe to recommend it.

I tried to get a ticket from the vending machine but it just kept spitting the money back out nothing came up on the screen it just would not take the noteHad you selected a journey at this point? It won't take your money if you haven't selected a journey.

Are you saying you tried coins and notes (note that €50 notes will never be accepted for short journeys)?

I went back inside to see if there was anyone about the barriers were open and the machine display said no ticket required This is rather damning for them.

I got on the dart thinking i could pay at pearse like i have done before
When i got off at pearse i immediatly went to the guy at the barrier and explained that the booking office in the station was closed and that the machine rejected my money which i showed him. What do you mean "which i showed him"?

I asked for the gardai to be called as i was not going to give him my name i would only give it to the gardai as i has done nothing wrong ( in my opinion)Did he actually ask for your name? Did he say it was an offence to not give your name?

Even after all this i still went downstairs and bought the ticket as i needed
it for work i get reimbursed for all traved expenses but i have to give in the ticket as a recipt Try to bring that ticket with you if it ends up in court. Get a photocopy now and keep it.

The real sting in the tail came also on 24th i received a letter rejicting my appeal dated the 22nd thats 2 days before i sent the appeal Was this a response to your letter to customer service?

So now im in the unhappy position of looking for a solicitor to defend me should this go to court There are likely to be some solicitors there on the day. However, it would be useful to talk to the before the day. Talk to the usual district court criminal defence solicitors. It would be cheapest to find one who would be there anyway on the day dealing with other cases.

Realise that going to court risks a criminal conviction.

Buy a Leap Card. You can use the on-line log to claim your expenses from work, it they'll accept it.

[Traincustomer]

(Not advice but a relevant point to prevent needless problems through no fault of passengers)

There is surely an internal system for logging such instances e.g. TVM faults/ a member of staff rings in sick and the ticket office isn't opened at the usual time (am sure there's a history/log of each TVM and any faults kept).

However problems with ticket vending machines and ticket offices ought to be publically displayed on the website (possibly as part of the NTA contractual requirement). Have never seen any such info ever posted on the Irish Rail website - have seen info on lifts out of action and the like.

A glance at a website in Britain shows the sort of thing:

http://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail
Hartlepool Facilities: Ticket Vending Machine problem
At Hartlepool station.
The ticket vending machines are out of order.
Message Received :01/02/2013 08:29

[karlr42]

The "no ticket required" thing is not a sign, it's a message displayed on the little screen on the barrier. A member of staff can set it to that mode(which also keeps the gates open) while a station is unstaffed, or you sometimes see the gates open and "Touch On/Off" displayed. I wouldn't take it as endorsement of not having a ticket, it's just a programmed message with unfortunate wording.

What probably happened was that the machine had no change was not accepting cash payment, I've seen that happen before. You could still have paid with a credit/debit card though.

[Eddie]

Your story, assuming we know all the facts, is shocking, Scooby.

You tried to pay as soon as you could, and were fined when you tried.

I would have thought this was reasonable.

In the UK, posters would be on display in most stations saying that you must buy a ticket before travelling, or where this is not possible, at the first available opportunity, ie a member of staff on board a train, or at your destination etc.

I've looked at the conditions of travel on the Irish rail website, available here:

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf

It was last updated in June 2004.

The only thing I can find says:

Conditions of Carriage of Passengers:
Conditions of Issue of Passenger Tickets
4.4 Where any person travels without a valid ticket, he or she will be required to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

No reference whatsoever about their being available facilities to buy a ticket before you travel. Just, you must have one.

So the message is, if you can't buy one, don't travel, because if you do, Irish Rail can prosecute you.

Given this, I'm not sure a solicitor can do much. And I'm sure their fee would quickly clock over the level of the fine.

So I think, on balance, much as I think you have done what is fair and reasonable, and what I would have done in the same circumstances because my knowledge would have been based on experience in the UK (before I'd read the conditions of travel above) I'd pay the fine.

And never, ever travel Irish Rail again without a ticket. Clearly, if you have no other available forms of transport available to you, this is a problem.

In my opinion, it's a pretty bad indictment of Irish Rail though, to fine a passenger that has tried to pay at the first available opportunity. And not to have updated its Conditions of Travel in nearly 9 years.

I hope someone else will be able to say that I'm wrong and you do have a case.

[scooby]

You don't mention which station.

What do you mean "which i showed him"?

Did he actually ask for your name? Did he say it was an offence to not give your name


Buy a Leap Card. You can use the on-line log to claim your expenses from work, it they'll accept it.

It was Glenageary station

No he did not say it was an offence not to give your name

I cant use a leap card our accounts dept will only accept the actual ticket as a receipt

I did keep the ticket i bought after the incident

What i did not say in my earlier epic post was that the issue was indeed that it was a €50 note i did not know at that time it would not accept this as i never use the vending machines i usually pay at the hatch

I genuinely did not see any notice like the one in other stations that was pointed out to me by a friend after this happened

I went and had another look and there was a sticker up on the top of the machine not beside the display like others this notice was partially obscured by another sticker and nothing came up on the display of the machine i tried several times to put it through

I had no other cash or cards that i could use

My problem with this whole mess is that i made genuine efforts to buy a ticket which were refused

At no time did i try to evade paying
I could have just walked out behind someone else but i did not I actually required a ticket and i tried to buy one

I needed a ticket to get to and from work and i need the actual physical ticket in order to be reimbursed

I just will not accept that someone can call me a criminal & demand money from me and that i should just accept it and reward them for this
shut up and pay up attitude

The guy in the little office in pearse was not even remotely interested in listening to my side of the story he was writing the ticket before i had finished speaking he did not try to contact glenageary to see if there was anyone there

The guard that arrived said that was her third time there that morning for the same thing

If i was the third person that felt strongly enough to ask for the gardai to be called then how many people just accepted irish rails accusations and walked away

the law society journal done an article on this called ticket to ride
http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=the+law+society+of+ireland+ticket+to+ride&oq=the+law+society+of+ireland+ticket+to+ri&gs_l=hp.1.0.33i21.2028.9074.2.11496.13.13.0.0.0.2. 1399.3608.8j3j7-2.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.2.hp.RyprDQ7xzM0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41867550,d.ZG4&fp=605943c099cdf9e4&biw=1280&bih=696

And clearly ( again in my opinion) indicates that it is not an offence to board a train without a ticket if the station is unmanned or you are unable to use the vending machine as long as you try to buy one as soon as you can on reaching your destination it is only an offence if you intend not to pay

Again i apologise for the long post

[plant43]

What i did not say in my earlier epic post was that the issue was indeed that it was a €50 note i did not know at that time it would not accept this as i never use the vending machines i usually pay at the hatch

I genuinely did not see any notice like the one in other stations that was pointed out to me by a friend after this happened


In addition to the notice on the machine, I believe that it is also indicated on the payment screen which notes/coins are accepted. It's really not Irish Rail's fault that you failed to notice that.

[Mark Gleeson]

Now that we have some facts we can move on

1. Purchase of a ticket at Glenageary

There is no evidence to support a claim the ticket machine was in any way defective. It refused a 50 euro note, per design and per long standing rules on change. The ticket machine does have a clear notice indicating 50 euro notes valid only if fare greater than 31 euro, so for reference attached photos of the ticket machine in Glenageary
1528

1529

So nothing wrong here and we can be sure Irish Rail can produce evidence of numerous ticket sales from the ticket machine in question before and after the OP's visit. Irish Rail is only obliged to accept exact payment, change is entirely optional


2. Pearse

As the ticket machine in Glenageary was in working order it was not flagged with staff, there is an internal notification process in Irish Rail will provides a list of all ticket machines, turnstiles and smartcard readers that are not in full working order.

So the member of staff was correct and legally empowered to begin the fixed penalty notice procedure

Refusal to give your name and address is an offence per Section 135(2)c of the Rail Safety Act 2005 and separately Section 35 of SI 109/1984 Coras Iompair Éireann Bye-Laws (Confirmation) Order.

Failure to cooperate with the official and the calling of the Gardai is a huge issue if this goes to court as any judge will take this as a case of wasting Garda time

Being brutally frank about the situation, we can split hairs about many elements of this, but this is the real world and not Hollywood courtroom

Ask the OP, did you have a ticket when boarding the train, yes/no

Ask the IE official, was there a working ticket machine or open booking office at the station the OP started from, yes/no

Its pretty open and shut at this point. That said you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support

1. There was no notice concerning the 50 euro note restriction (Photos I have show the notice is there)
2. Photo of the turnstile saying no ticket required (Software change in early Jan 2013 got rid of this notice, we asked for the change 1+ year ago)
3. Not being informed of the legal obligations to give name etc (dubious at best, its a citizens responsibility to know the rules, ignorance is no defence)

[Thomas Ralph]

Unfortunately I agree with Mark on most of this. I say unfortunately because the rules aren't especially fair on people in this scenario, if you genuinely had only a €50 note. Thing is, most people carry a credit or debit card as well, and machines will accept these for any transaction.

However, I think the only offence you have committed which is eligible for a fixed penalty notice is of failing to give your name and address. The offence of avoiding a fare (s 132 (3) (a) Railway Safety Act 2005, if memory serves) requires intent to avoid payment, which I doubt can be proven. Also, the statutory instrument does not allow them to issue a €50 fine for this. I don't think you are likely to get off on the technicalities, but it would be an interesting argument.

[Inniskeen]

Just a few comments.
While I sympathise with your situation and believe you have been poorly treated, you need to ask yourself would you you have travelled abroad in similar circumstances - say in London, New York, Vienna, Berlin ? If the answer is no then maybe you shouldn't have travelled in Dublin either.

Looking at the Irish Rail performance, the ticket & ticket checking systems are a mess due to inconsistency of application and unreliability of equipment.

As regards the €50 euro restriction, this may well be an inconvenience but provided it is clearly indicated at the station then unfortunately it is the passenger who must organise themselves accordingly.

As for the booking office being unstaffed, this is comparatively routine. The Irish Rail pactice of leaving barriers and gates open in such circumstances is questionable as it sends the message that they are not particularly pushed whether passengerrs have a ticket or not. Many, many passengers travel free as they get to know the system.

The new barriers happily facilitate tailgating, something I have been forced to do on numerous occasions due to the entry/exit equipment not acknowledging a perfectly valid annual ticket.

I happened to be in Dalkey yesterday (I think the ticket office was open) While waiting for a Dublin bound DART I observed several youths simply pulling the turnstiles slightly forward and then squeezing through the mid-position without any difficulty. The group involved had no difficulty exiting at Sydney Parade as the barriers were were open and possibly displaying the "No ticket required message".

While I am loathe to advise given that I don't have the legal knowledge to properly assess your case, morally you seem to have a decent case, but the onus may still be yours to have a valid ticket before boarding a train, irrespective of circumstances.

Good Luck !

[scooby]

Many thanks for yor replies
attached is the photo of vending machine in question having trouble resizing it to fit

[Mark Gleeson]

If you can prove that photo was taken on the day of the incident or in the days following you are in the clear as its does NOT indicate 50 euro note restrictions and as Thomas has said they have to prove intent to defraud which is not easy.

However this is what the machine looks like Sunday Feb 3 and the notice is clearly shown

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1528&d=1359904690

So you got to prove the date and time of the photo, if you have to original file it should be timestamped and stored along with the camera type internally.

If the photo was taken this morning it proves nothing

[scooby]

If the photo was taken this morning it proves nothing

Yes the date and timestamp on the original 22/jan 12 camera type and focal length and all that

Does not matter now not getting much support from anyone so after another letter from irish rail giving me another 14 days after yet another fictious consideration of the circumstanses
you remember the first time they rejected my appeal 6 days before i had made it
I decided i have had enough
I called the phone number on the letter 5 times today to pay the fine by post but no one answered i had to go in to pearse street and pay
I realise that if i cant convince ordinary people of my innocence of the unjust charge what chance would i have with a judge
Thank you all for your input
case closed

[James Howard]

Personally, I think this is unfair that when somebody makes a genuine effort to pay at the barrier that they get stung for a penalty fare. Yes, you aren't supposed to get on a train without a ticket, but the general impression most people have is that it is OK to travel without a ticket and sort it out at the other end. The people on this site know that this is no longer the case but the occasional train user is quite likely to have a very different impression.

It is fair enough that Irish Rail have changed their policy on this level of enforcement, but I don't think it is made sufficiently obvious that travelling without a ticket in no longer acceptable except in situations where the ticket machines are all out of order.

The fact is that people in this country are very much used to seeing all sort of official signs with inconsistent messages and that bear very little relation to reality. That is the way the place is run, so a little sign on the ticket machine is simply not going to cut it. The sign needs to be very obvious, huge and state something along the lines of "DO NOT GET ON A TRAIN WITHOUT A TICKET - YOU WILL BE FINED". Probably, it needs to be in Irish as well - and hanging over the ticket barriers where you can't miss it.

From the photo earlier in the thread, I assume that the notice is the panel stuck over the the Irish version of the "Ticket Sales" logo. There is so much junk stuck onto the machine between leap card ads, a student ticket ad and something for a shop that a little sticker with a "i" logo in the same colour and general shape as a Facebook icon would be easily ignored in peripheral vision as just more junk.

[Eddie]

Completely agree with you James.

On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar.

As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am.

I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours.

You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time:
- perhaps the sign is out-of-date
- perhaps there is a job vacancy
- perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in
- perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught

I don't think this is a one-off, affecting this station only. We've all been through unmanned stations, though I rarely check to see if the booth was supposed to be open, according to the adjacent sign. It would be interesting to know if Glenageary station which Scooby went through was due to be manned at the time. If it was, and as his intention was to buy a ticket, presumably he would have been able to pay with a €50 note, and avoid the fine.

Just for interest, what level of staff monitoring is there at stations, particularly at stations where there is only one member of staff due to be on duty?

[grainne whale]

Yes the date and timestamp on the original 22/jan 12 camera type and focal length and all that

Does not matter now not getting much support from anyone so after another letter from irish rail giving me another 14 days after yet another fictious consideration of the circumstanses
you remember the first time they rejected my appeal 6 days before i had made it
I decided i have had enough
I called the phone number on the letter 5 times today to pay the fine by post but no one answered i had to go in to pearse street and pay
I realise that if i cant convince ordinary people of my innocence of the unjust charge what chance would i have with a judge
Thank you all for your input
case closed Scooby, please have a look at this attachment, it may benefit your case - Article 9.

[Mark Gleeson]

Glenageary complies with Article 9 as it has ticket sales through machine (and office), Broombridge is a different case. Irish Rail has opted for the clause which requires a ticket before boarding for revenue protection reasons.

The reality is very simple

It was possible to purchase a ticket before boarding

There is no obligation to give change. All of this is completely legal and well within international transport norms.

Had there been no machine or the machine was broken this would have been a different case and odds are there would have been no fine issued and normal fare collected.

The Luas machines are identical and have the same rules on 50 euro notes and change limits. Strangely we have never had a complaint about this on Luas...

[grainne whale]

No wonder there are no complaints from Luas passengers, the denominations of notes and coins accepted are clearly visible ON THE SCREEN. The paper notice stuck on with glue on the vending machine can easily be missed when one's attention is on the screen. This is extremely unprofessional. I could do just as well myself, with a laptop and a printer.
PS: Passengers do have rights. As regards not being obliged to give change, that is open to a challenge, perhaps I'll take that up with The Director of Consumer Affairs.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail display the specific limits on the machine, its there because we asked them to display the limits upfront. We got them to change the entire payment process to avoid past issues.

Irish Rail does not have to give change, Dublin Bus accept exact only, there is no legal block on refusing to give change. In most cases change is available but not always. 500 euro notes may be legal tender but find someone other than a bank to accept one is a challenge.

The reality is if the machine accepted 50 euro notes for 2 euro transactions, the machine would be out of service in a matter of a few hours due lack of change. There is also some possible legal limits on the change a retailer can give to a customer.

Try the Netherlands out where the ticket machines won't accept any paper money at all!

Reality here is there was a serviceable ticket machine in place, it wasn't hidden, there wasn't a queue.

We can find no fault on Irish Rail, there ticketing purchase policy is compliant with EU rules, is the same if not identical to that in use in the UK and across many parts of Europe.

In the past were we have found cases where Irish Rail issued fines in questionable circumstances we have been able to get the fines struck out since we could reasonably show that a ticket could not be obtained.

[grainne whale]

Irish Rail display the specific limits on the machine, its there because we asked them to display the limits upfront. We got them to change the entire payment process to avoid past issues.

Irish Rail does not have to give change, Dublin Bus accept exact only, there is no legal block on refusing to give change. In most cases change is available but not always. 500 euro notes may be legal tender but find someone other than a bank to accept one is a challenge.

The reality is if the machine accepted 50 euro notes for 2 euro transactions, the machine would be out of service in a matter of a few hours due lack of change. There is also some possible legal limits on the change a retailer can give to a customer.

Try the Netherlands out where the ticket machines won't accept any paper money at all!

Reality here is there was a serviceable ticket machine in place, it wasn't hidden, there wasn't a queue.

We can find no fault on Irish Rail, there ticketing purchase policy is compliant with EU rules, is the same if not identical to that in use in the UK and across many parts of Europe.

In the past were we have found cases where Irish Rail issued fines in questionable circumstances we have been able to get the fines struck out since we could reasonably show that a ticket could not be obtained. I'm not commenting on the Glenageary case here it's just a general observation. The ticketing machines are confusing, especially having additional information (about the denominations they accept) stuck on a piece of paper. If you reach the barrier and you are confronted with a display 'no ticket required', of course you would just walk through, thinking you can buy a ticket on board. I have an annual ticket so I don't have this problem, but I can understand that possibly a number of people do find it confusing, especially people who do not travel by train that often.

[Mark Gleeson]

The turnstiles now display "Tag On/Off" and have done since the start of January when unlocked.

The European comparison is relevant as everyone has to follow the same EU rules

Having visited 16 countries in the last year, the Irish Rail machines are amongst the simplest to use anywhere, they support the most languages and have the least number of options so its normally only 3 button pushes to complete the transaction.

The Swiss ones are pretty decent as well, but UK and Dutch are the horrible.

[grainne whale]

The turnstiles now display "Tag On/Off" and have done since the start of January when unlocked.

The European comparison is relevant as everyone has to follow the same EU rules

Having visited 16 countries in the last year, the Irish Rail machines are amongst the simplest to use anywhere, they support the most languages and have the least number of options so its normally only 3 button pushes to complete the transaction.

The Swiss ones are pretty decent as well, but UK and Dutch are the horrible. I bet the continental machines don't have extra information stuck on to the machine on piece of paper.:eek:

[James Howard]

Interesting that you bring up the Swiss machines being excellent as there was an article on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21294241) the other day about their being an unholy row going on regarding over-aggressive enforcement of ticketing rules.

Mark, I think it is quite likely that given your vast experience in using ticket machines internationally that you might have a different idea of what "easy to use" is when it comes to purchasing your ticket out of the machines than the average late-middle-aged occasional rail user.

This is a completely different experience to an occasional user who might have last taken trains regularly in the 1990's when the old wheeze of buying a ticket from Sydney Parade into town in the hopes that the Sligo train would be too crowded for the ticket collector to get to you worked a treat.

The Luas is a different kettle-of-fish altogether. Firstly, the service is extremely frequent so you don't really mind missing a tram while buying a ticket. But more importantly you can't take the Luas more than 4 or 5 times without coming across ticket collectors and it is blatantly obvious that you are going to come a cropper if you don't have a ticket. In other words, they have highly visible, regular, consistent enforcement and everybody knows the rules. For whatever reason, Irish Rail have not managed to get the message across to the occasional user and the regular user generally has a season ticket anyway.

[Jamie2k9]

The ticketing machines are confusing, especially having additional information (about the denominations they accept) stuck on a piece of paper

Think you will find that when you at the payment step, it is clearly shown on the screen the notes and coins they accept and 50 notes are not shown. So you have the screen and peice of paper that say no 50 notes.

[grainne whale]

Think you will find that when you at the payment step, it is clearly shown on the screen the notes and coins they accept and 50 notes are not shown. So you have the screen and peice of paper that say no 50 notes.
I checked yesterday at Heuston and €50 ARE SHOWN on the screen. Below the screen there is a (paper) notice in small script saying that €50 notes cannot be used for a journey costing less than €31, most people would need glasses to read this.

[Jamie2k9]

I checked yesterday at Heuston and €50 ARE SHOWN on the screen. Below the screen there is a (paper) notice in small script saying that €50 notes cannot be used for a journey costing less than €31, most people would need glasses to read this.

If thats the case then some do and some don't because 2 machines in Waterford only show 5, 10, 20 notes.

[grainne whale]

If thats the case then some do and some don't because 2 machines in Waterford only show 5, 10, 20 notes. Yep, just thought that I'd check it out yesterday on my way home, of course then again it might just be that particular machine.:confused:

[Inniskeen]

Went to buy tickets at Pearse this morning, value €10.50. Machine explicity invited me to pay with cash (including €50 note) or various cards. Only when I selected cash payment did the €50 note icon disappear from the screen - not sure that your average customer would notice this. The machine had a not overly obvious small "stick on" label indicating that €50 notes were only accepted for payment when the amount to be paid is €31 or more.

[Jamie2k9]

Went to buy tickets at Pearse this morning, value €10.50. Machine explicity invited me to pay with cash (including €50 note) or various cards. Only when I selected cash payment did the €50 note icon disappear from the screen - not sure that your average customer would notice this. The machine had a not overly obvious small "stick on" label indicating that €50 notes were only accepted for payment when the amount to be paid is €31 or more.

Maybe IE should do what Luas machines do, when you are at the payment stage they have all notes listed with a red x through the 50 note.

Thats if the machines are the same.

[Thomas Ralph]

I bet the continental machines don't have extra information stuck on to the machine on piece of paper.:eek:

Some over here in London do, and the one I used at Dusseldorf airport a while back was festooned with stickers.

You will also find you can't use two €50 notes to pay for a ticket costing €68, by the way.

[grainne whale]

Some over here in London do, and the one I used at Dusseldorf airport a while back was festooned with stickers.

You will also find you can't use two €50 notes to pay for a ticket costing €68, by the way. What sort of stickers, information on denominations of euro to be used or other : massage parlours etc. :D

[Eddie]

On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar.

As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am.

I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours.

You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time:
- perhaps the sign is out-of-date
- perhaps there is a job vacancy
- perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in
- perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught

I don't think this is a one-off, affecting this station only. We've all been through unmanned stations, though I rarely check to see if the booth was supposed to be open, according to the adjacent sign. It would be interesting to know if Glenageary station which Scooby went through was due to be manned at the time. If it was, and as his intention was to buy a ticket, presumably he would have been able to pay with a €50 note, and avoid the fine.

Just for interest, what level of staff monitoring is there at stations, particularly at stations where there is only one member of staff due to be on duty?

Would you believe it - I went through Shankill again last Friday evening - again unmanned - and the ticket office opening hours sign has been removed.

Gates left open again but "Tag on / off" sign was displayed, not "No ticket required".

Good to see this forum is obviously carefully watched, but now the public have no information as to when the station should or shouldn't be open.

[Eddie]

On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar.

As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am.

I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours.

You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time:
- perhaps the sign is out-of-date
- perhaps there is a job vacancy
- perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in
- perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught.

A new notice has appeared at Shankill station, with ticket office opening times now stated as Monday to Friday, 7am til 10am, so it appears my first conclusion was the correct one. It certainly demonstrates a massive decline, from being open 19 hours a day to just 3, and I presume this has been mirrored across many suburban stations.