Christmas & New Year Travel 2012 - Chat

[IckyThump]

i seen one today

"centra will be closing at 4pm on monday 24th december"

hope this nothice is relevant:D

[dowlingm]

Once again I do my annual teethgrinding that IE will shut down the network for 55 hours or so, not only foregoing the revenue but not even doing major works on the 26th to get some value out of it.

Meanwhile, in these parts...
VIA Rail Canada Statutory Holiday Schedule 2012/13 (http://www.viarail.ca/en/trainexceptions)
GO Transit Holiday Schedule (http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/updates/schedulechanges.aspx)

[James Howard]

Different countries have different traditions about Christmas. It just happens that in Ireland we tend to take it pretty seriously and a huge proportion of people just take it easy for a few days around Christmas. In the US, they would definitely take Christmas less seriously. To be honest, I reckon relatively few people take Christmas as seriously as the Irish.

The demand for rail travel on the 26th would tend to be exceptionally low so if Irish Rail can save a few quid by shutting down for the day and hence provide an extra service for the other 363 days of the year, then I reckon the majority of people would be entirely happy about that.

[Jamie2k9]

Limited DART and Cork regional is not to much to ask. Every other transport operator run on 26

[comcor]

Even operation after 3pm on the 26th.

I would have expected reasonable InterCity demand for people who need to be back at work on the 27th. Plus a lot of people go out on the night of the 26th and Dublin and Cork commuter are used to get into the city centres.

[karlr42]

Nobody should have to work on the 25th/26th. Two days off a year is not much to ask.

[dowlingm]

Nobody should have to work on the 25th/26th. Two days off a year is not much to ask.Is there going to be service on New Years? If not we're down another day. EDIT: it seems there will be some service, though not on the Nenagh or Clonmel branches.

As for Christmas/Stephens Day - a total shutdown on Stephens Day is a bit much. There should be AM/PM peak commuter service running at weekend levels for those who have to work plus a limited service for those who need to visit relations or whatever but have had to give up running a car because of financial circumstances or who don't want to drink and drive. Heuston trains could be one departure an hour of 2 x 22Ks with trains splitting en route so that Cork gets one service per two hours and Tralee/Limerick/Galway/Westport/Waterford one per three/four.

While Ireland might not be multicultural the way UK and US cities are, the reality is that there is a growing population who pay their taxes like everyone else and who are totally discommoded not just for one day but in the case of the rail system for two full days in a row. Meanwhile Aircoach ran a near-normal schedule (http://www.aircoach.ie/news.article.php?ID=331) last year.

[Jamie2k9]

Nobody should have to work on the 25th/26th. Two days off a year is not much to ask.

So all the Health, Garadi, Fire staff should be given the days off, what about the thousands of use who will be working on 26 at airport.

[James Howard]

Trains are pretty useless to Health, Gardai and Fire staff anyway given their shift patterns. The same goes for airport staff I should think.

I think that offering some form of commuter service as far as Maynooth / Drogheda / Kildare and Greystones would be reasonable on the 26th. I know nothing about Cork commuter services so couldn't comment. InterCity isn't really necessary given that there are buses running on the same routes. But I guess shutting the system down entirely offers consider savings.

However, Irish Rail might be doing themselves long-term harm by making airport passengers try out bus services that go directly to the airport and probably offer more convenience and quicker times due to not having to trek from Heuston to the airport with baggage.

[dowlingm]

InterCity isn't really necessary given that there are buses running on the same routes.if IE operated in a co-ordinated system, I would agree. but it works in a competitive one.

[Mickey H]

In years gone by there was one train in each direction on some lines (certainly Dublin-Cork) on St Stephen's day

[James Howard]

In theory, opening the line for a couple of runs should be less of an issue nowadays. As recently as two years ago, opening the Sligo line required dragging dozens of level crossing operators out of bed and a few years before that they were a dozen or so signalmen. But the staffing levels are dramatically lower now.

[Mark Gleeson]

Still need to staff 2 level crossings in Dublin

The only route which can operate really is Howth Bray, 4 control staff and a few drivers is all you need

Greystones/Malahide adds more staff

[ThomasJ]

Still need to staff 2 level crossings in Dublin

The only route which can operate really is Howth Bray, 4 control staff and a few drivers is all you need

Greystones/Malahide adds more staff

Are there only 2 manual level crossings on the maynooth line now?

[Thomas J Stamp]

i can, barely, remember the dublin buses running on christmas day. was there a train service on christmas day ever?

[Mark Gleeson]

DART managed St Stephen's day until the early 1990's

[Inniskeen]

DART managed St Stephen's day until the early 1990's

DART (as in electric services) never ran on St Stephen's day.

CIE generally ran trains on St Stephen's day at least up to 1970.

By 1964 the only line south of the border to operate on Christmas day was the Belfast line with one service in each direction serving Dundalk, Drogheda, Balbriggan and Donabate !

All lines in Northern Ireland, other than cross-border, were operating on both Christmas day & St Stephen's day until at least 1967.

[comcor]

For good measure, it looks like the 05:05 and 6:15 Cork-Dublin services are gone on the 27th, so I'll be on the GoBé service to Dublin...

[Mark Gleeson]

Demand out of Cork last year was barely double digits so cut based on proven lack of demand

[on the move]

Different countries have different traditions about Christmas. It just happens that in Ireland we tend to take it pretty seriously and a huge proportion of people just take it easy for a few days around Christmas. In the US, they would definitely take Christmas less seriously. To be honest, I reckon relatively few people take Christmas as seriously as the Irish.

The demand for rail travel on the 26th would tend to be exceptionally low so if Irish Rail can save a few quid by shutting down for the day and hence provide an extra service for the other 363 days of the year, then I reckon the majority of people would be entirely happy about that.

It's nothing to do with demand or providing extra services, it's adhering to tradition. A tradition that is sacrosanct, in all circumstances.

Absolutely everything stops in Ireland on 25 December. Not even an airport is open. From searching transport services in other countries for the day, I could not find any country where there is no public transport available of any kind. Heathrow/Paris is open on the day and flights are in operation.

And you still won't get the extra service from IR that taking the siesta on the 26th might indicate.

[dowlingm]

Over here the free transport on NYE has really taken off as a way to encourage people not to drink drive etc.

GO Transit (think combined IE Outer Suburban and BE Outer Suburban) will be free from 8pm with a minimum one inbound train around 8pm and one outbound train after 1am on almost all lines (all but two lines are peak direction train counterpeak bus in normal service) - those trains will have 1500-1800 seats (10-12 bilevels) plus standing room.

TTC (think DB/LUAS/Metro under one roof): all services free 2200-0400, all subway lines open until 0330ish (usually 0200)

[Thomas Ralph]

A similar arrangement was in place between 2345 and 0400 on TfL services here, plus First Capital Connect.

[Mark Gleeson]

The fact Diageo is paying for it has something to do with it.

[Jamie2k9]

After a few recent trips I now think that IE have made the right decision not to operate on 26 December. That is not operating Intercity service. Dublin and Cork area may be needed. Heuston was a ghost town today not quiet as bad on Monday. I counted no more than 10 passengers there this afternoon with less than 30 mins to go for 17.00 to Cork and 17.05 to Tralee plus the ususal other services.

I expect further reduced Intercity schedule over this period in 2013 I think there was major over capacity estimated on the Cork line.

[seamus kilcock]

Don't Bus Eireann and Private Operators cover inter city routes on Dec 26th?

If the above is correct all that is needed by IE is to provide a limited suburban service for Cork and Dublin commuters/shoppers on Dec 26th?

[Colm Moore]

Don't Bus Eireann and Private Operators cover inter city routes on Dec 26th?Some, probably not all.

[karlr42]

From what I saw travelling today, even at this stage Dublin suburban trains and DART are still well below their normal levels and presumably won't be back to normal until Monday(although many college terms are not until the following week I believe).

[Mark Gleeson]

I think we are missing the point to some degree

Demand on the 26th is not sufficient to justify service anywhere really, the problem is that we continue to operate bus and rail as competing not complimentary modes

Leap to somewhat changed this but fundamentaly there should be no monthly bus only or rail only, every season ticket by default should be valid on all operators

Go to Berlin, one ticket valid every operator

[karlr42]

Totally agree.

[ThomasJ]

be asked about new years eve.

A major gig in centre of Dublin to Mark the year of the homecoming a major plan to get people to return to Ireland and spend their cash over here. The gig coating people 20 euro each and what are the transport options for people.?

- trains finished up by 9pm

- no buses after 10pm although back running after midnight

- trams running upto 12.30 but only one route operating after 12.30

Given that the same department organised this major gig questions have to be asked as to why transport options for people was so poor.

In general questions have also to be asked about the citys transport situation

- how come one of the citys busiest railway lines finishes earlier than the national intercity line on a sunday night. No maynooth line trains after 8.45 on a sunday night

- how come you can get a bus to or from cork or galway or wexford in the early hours of the morning but not dublin

- how come tram lines can run until 12.30 yet those with services run by cie the latest sservices are at 11.30

The citys transport network is a complete mess

[Jamie2k9]

be asked about new years eve.

A major gig in centre of Dublin to Mark the year of the homecoming a major plan to get people to return to Ireland and spend their cash over here. The gig coating people 20 euro each and what are the transport options for people.?

- trains finished up by 9pm

- no buses after 10pm although back running after midnight

- trams running upto 12.30 but only one route operating after 12.30

Given that the same department organised this major gig questions have to be asked as to why transport options for people was so poor.

In general questions have also to be asked about the citys transport situation

- how come one of the citys busiest railway lines finishes earlier than the national intercity line on a sunday night. No maynooth line trains after 8.45 on a sunday night

- how come you can get a bus to or from cork or galway or wexford in the early hours of the morning but not dublin

- how come tram lines can run until 12.30 yet those with services run by cie the latest sservices are at 11.30

The citys transport network is a complete mess

There is just not enough demand as I was on DB route around 21.00 and it was me and a handful of people. Many would of being in town since 6 or 7 in the evening for the fireworks that started at 20.00.

Didn't IR run late trains before but demand were very low?

[karlr42]

Given that the same department organised this major gig questions have to be asked as to why transport options for people was so poor.

Because the government clearly wants to stop providing public transport and would rather wash their hands of it entirely.

- how come one of the citys busiest railway lines finishes earlier than the national intercity line on a sunday night. No maynooth line trains after 8.45 on a sunday night

Because IE operate the Maynooth line as a branch, there are no drivers based in Maynooth and trains are not stabled or maintained there so the latest trains have to be able to get back (empty) to Connolly before the end of the driver's shift.

- how come tram lines can run until 12.30 yet those with services run by cie the latest sservices are at 11.30


Because Veolia/RPA is given enough free reign and money to operate these services, while CIE is forced to rely on a dwindling subvention in order to make it look bad and help the government ultimately get rid of it. Passengers are just the pawns in this.


The citys transport network is a complete mess


It's not a network, because there has never been enough money put in to build infrastructure, and planning has never been used effectively to drive population towards existing infrastructure.

[on the move]

Demand on the 26th is not sufficient to justify service anywhere really

Demand on every day of the year doesn't justify service really, as the road network now can carry most people at half the cost, and in some cases half the time.

That said, we still need a functioning rail network. Not everybody can drive from A to B as and when needed, and certain goods can only be transported by rail. There's more to trains than the Profit and Loss column.

[Mark Gleeson]

Come on be sensible

We get complaints of standing room only daily, the network is actually moving people, to run on the 26th would end up with a situation where you would have more staff than passengers which makes no sense at all.

The problem is not the lack of transport, there is a bus service but a lack of integration and cross acceptance of tickets

[Thomas J Stamp]

Because Veolia/RPA is given enough free reign and money to operate these services, while CIE is forced to rely on a dwindling subvention in order to make it look bad and help the government ultimately get rid of it. Passengers are just the pawns in this.





well, see where that gets you on the red line extra christmas services?

to state that the "government" is not interested in running public transport is to ignore the billions pumped into all forms of public transport since 1995. there is also the small matter of the subvention, which, whilst decreasing - and justly so given what happened with the €36 million request last year which wasnt actually needed - is still in the region of some €200 million per year.

whilst the government may want CIE to break even and be run out of the fares box, that is far from getting rid of public transport.

[karlr42]

whilst the government may want CIE to break even and be run out of the fares box, that is far from getting rid of public transport.

In my opinion it is not possible for CIE or any public transport operator to be cover its costs or make a profit. They require subvention and there must be a social and political willingness to subsidise it to the level required. So asking CIE to break even is asking for it to fail so it can be disposed of and privatisation can be introduced, thus moving all the revenue to the private sector, keeping the need to invest and subsidise with the state, and lowering the quality of public transport for the people.

[Mark Gleeson]

But that said its fairly amazing how much money has been saved within the CIE companies when the minister started to turn the screw

Clearly there is inefficiency plus a lot of junk tacked on for political and not real transport reasons

As has been said, in the UK the user pays, Europe the tax payer but in Ireland no one wants to pay

[Thomas J Stamp]

In my opinion it is not possible for CIE or any public transport operator to be cover its costs or make a profit. They require subvention and there must be a social and political willingness to subsidise it to the level required. So asking CIE to break even is asking for it to fail so it can be disposed of and privatisation can be introduced, thus moving all the revenue to the private sector, keeping the need to invest and subsidise with the state, and lowering the quality of public transport for the people.

when you consider that the labour party are in government, and the role within that party of the trades union movement, and of the role within CIE of that movement you can be pretty sure that this will never happen.

but, as we have said, CIE looked for €36 million or it would cease to operate in 2012. Unlike his precedessors, Minister Veradkar took a close look at it and refused to simply write the cheque. Somehow they didnt need that extra money after all. There is a lot of bad deployment of resources within the system.

[on the move]

Come on be sensible

We get complaints of standing room only daily, the network is actually moving people, to run on the 26th would end up with a situation where you would have more staff than passengers which makes no sense at all.

It's several years now since I had to stand on an Irish train, bar the Dart.

The country reopened for business on the 26th, airports, buses, trams all running. Most shopping centres were open on the 26th and many pubs, so there was money to be made. People who wanted to use the train though, either had to use other transport or stay at home.

The national rail network is very small. Trains run across Europe on the 25th, stations are open and manned, regardless of the local economy or passenger numbers. So it isn't good enough for Irish Rail to take an extra long siesta.

[laoisfan]

It's several years now since I had to stand on an Irish train, bar the Dart.

The country reopened for business on the 26th, airports, buses, trams all running. Most shopping centres were open on the 26th and many pubs, so there was money to be made. People who wanted to use the train though, either had to use other transport or stay at home.

The national rail network is very small. Trains run across Europe on the 25th, stations are open and manned, regardless of the local economy or passenger numbers. So it isn't good enough for Irish Rail to take an extra long siesta.

Respectively disagree. We do not have to do "everything" that Europe does or wants us to do. In this instance I think IR are correct to reduce or limit the service on certain days of the year, primarily if it is related to demand. From a business perspective it makes absolutely no sense to have more staff than customers.

[Thomas J Stamp]

It's several years now since I had to stand on an Irish train, bar the Dart.

The country reopened for business on the 26th, airports, buses, trams all running. Most shopping centres were open on the 26th and many pubs, so there was money to be made. People who wanted to use the train though, either had to use other transport or stay at home.

The national rail network is very small. Trains run across Europe on the 25th, stations are open and manned, regardless of the local economy or passenger numbers. So it isn't good enough for Irish Rail to take an extra long siesta.


lots of standing room only on trains out of hueston when i was going up and down in december.

The "Country re-opening for business" line is not strictly true. Take, for example, one shop I know of which did open on christmas day 8-8. for years the staff resisted it, last year he got his way, and told staff that they all had to do two hours each or they would get their P45 on the 26th.

Was he there? No, he was at home with his family whilst the staff were not.

I know of another who tried to open christmas day and was met with not only total revolt by the staff, but wasnt long in finding out that if he did open up nobody would shop there after christmas. Needless to say, he too was not going to darken the door on the 25th while forcing his staff to do so.

People are actually decent enough, in the small towns anyway, to realise that retail staff are entitled to a bit of a break.

The fact that our local shops were open till 7pm on christmas eve and opened again at 9am on the 26th was also reviewed negativly. There was a time here that all the shops closed at 3pm or thereabbouts on the 24th and didnt reopen till the 27th.

[on the move]

The "Country re-opening for business" line is not strictly true. Take, for example, one shop I know of which did open on christmas day 8-8.

I know of another who tried to open christmas day and was met with not only total revolt by the staff, but wasnt long in finding out that if he did open up nobody would shop there after christmas. Needless to say, he too was not going to darken the door on the 25th while forcing his staff to do so.

People are actually decent enough, in the small towns anyway, to realise that retail staff are entitled to a bit of a break.

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

[laoisfan]

It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

Says who ?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

so one tradition, which is that some shops open stephens days is fine, another one is not fine.

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Of course not everywhere was open, but the sales started in most shopping centres, many supermarkets and chain shops were open for most of the day. Same goes for pubs, and the major fast food restaurants are all back operating their normal hours.

Retail staff are aware that one of the nuances of their industry is that their breaks are taken at different times of the year to the rest of the population, and most accept that.

Ireland Inc. officially reopens for business on the morning of the 26th. The transport networks that run on the day earn a fair wedge. Aircoach services resume between 2 and 4am on most routes. Irish Rail should operate even a limited schedule, not take the day off. It has nothing to do with saving money, because they did the same when the economy was doing well. It's everything to do with tradition, a tradition that gets more outdated by the year.

so one tradition, which is that some shops open stephens days is fine, another one is not fine.

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

[on the move]

If there was money to be made on it IE would operate Stephens Day, I am sure of it. Same as if there was money to be made on it Luas would have a christmas night service on the red line as well as the green line.

Neither is operated because of cashflow issues. The Luas Red Line has had no late night service since 2010, because of much overblown "public order" concerns. IE don't operate at all on the 26th due to tradition. So the other transport networks are given carte blanche to clean up what traffic is out there.

"Ireland inc" is a very makey-uppy term. Many businesses do not open right after christmass. And Ireland is a society, not an Inc. Maybe if a lot more shops and other businesses closed for stephens day we would actually enjoy what is supposed to be a peaceful time away form the rat race a bit more.

In an Ireland increasingly multinational and multi-faith over recent years, the national shutdown on the 25th comes as a bit of a shock, is quite difficult to justify, and may well be seen as rather backward by our non-national population. When the 26th arrives, normal life begins to gradually get back to normal.

Actually, I still recall that most of the dublin city centre pubs didnt open on stephens day either, and that was as recently as the 90's.

Some still don't, but most now open for a limited time on the 26th. It's a huge sporting day after all, and that will always attract customers.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Neither is operated because of cashflow issues. The Luas Red Line has had no late night service since 2010, because of much overblown "public order" concerns. IE don't operate at all on the 26th due to tradition. So the other transport networks are given carte blanche to clean up what traffic is out there.

In an Ireland increasingly multinational and multi-faith over recent years, the national shutdown on the 25th comes as a bit of a shock, is quite difficult to justify, and may well be seen as rather backward by our non-national population. When the 26th arrives, normal life begins to gradually get back to normal.

Some still don't, but most now open for a limited time on the 26th. It's a huge sporting day after all, and that will always attract customers.


it is our belief that the red line does not run for purely economic reasons, and untill there is a nightclub area all around the red line stops in town that will go on. before you get to the stops you have to pass all the nitelinks and taxi ranks.

the national shutdown being quite hard to justify on multi-cultural and faith grounds??? you're jumping the shark baby. every country has their own versions, eg, islamic countries and isreal. dont see our ex-pats taking that attidude there. besides, how many actually observe christmas as a religious holiday?? Sod all.

I really dont understand your love and desire for the rat race, 24/7 commercialism and corporate erotica. I would say I am off for lunch, but you would scorn me as its for wimps.

[on the move]

it is our belief that the red line does not run for purely economic reasons, and untill there is a nightclub area all around the red line stops in town that will go on. before you get to the stops you have to pass all the nitelinks and taxi ranks.

the national shutdown being quite hard to justify on multi-cultural and faith grounds??? every country has their own versions, eg, islamic countries and isreal. dont see our ex-pats taking that attidude there. besides, how many actually observe christmas as a religious holiday?? Sod all.

I really dont understand your love and desire for the rat race, 24/7 commercialism. I would say I am off for lunch, but you would scorn me as its for wimps.

Lunch usually takes around 30 minutes. It doesn't go on for 30 hours.

Every country has their own way of celebrating Christmas indeed. The Orthodox countries take their Christmas in January. But essential services there remain available. People have to get around the place, it's not simply get a car or walk.

Re 24/7 commercialism: This is supposed to be a modern country in the Western World, not North Korea. Those who can make money create opportunities to make it, those who don't bother count the cost. The Red Line runs through the busiest and most populated areas of Dublin. Temple Bar is 5 minutes walk from Jervis. There's a plethora of bars and restaurants in and around Abbey Street, no Luas outside the door though. There was the NYE concert on, yet no Luas was available on the Red Line less than a kilometre away.

Nothing economic about it. There's plenty of custom available, if there was a will to find it. Instead "public order" concerns are cited, despite the trams stuffed with security personnel on every late night journey.

Laziness/Stubbornness is the real reason.

[Jamie2k9]

I expect a lot of people wouldn't use the Red Luas Line if an operated past 00.30. People just about feel safe during the day...

I am sure the Red Line did run until 03.30 at times before so demand isn't there.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Re 24/7 commercialism: This is supposed to be a modern country in the Western World, not North Korea. Those who can make money create opportunities to make it, those who don't bother count the cost. The Red Line runs through the busiest and most populated areas of Dublin. Temple Bar is 5 minutes walk from Jervis. There's a plethora of bars and restaurants in and around Abbey Street, no Luas outside the door though. There was the NYE concert on, yet no Luas was available on the Red Line less than a kilometre away.

Nothing economic about it. There's plenty of custom available, if there was a will to find it. Instead "public order" concerns are cited, despite the trams stuffed with security personnel on every late night journey.

Laziness/Stubbornness is the real reason.

BiB = :rolleyes: :rolleyes: you been watching wall street a bit much.

as for the rest.... Temple Bar has got all the night links and several taxi ranks around it. have you actually been in o'connell street after midnight? The only thing going are the fast food outlets from abbey street to the bridge. I have spent many an evening in the grand central, and have gazed out as empty luas followed by empty luas followed by empty luas goes past all the way to the last one. Your last paragraph, finally, actually contradicts everything else you say. Your use of "public order" suggests you find that reason as doubtful, whcih is exactly what i started this off by saying. The only reason why there are no late night red line Luas is because it lost money hand over fist.

There are similar levels of anti social behaviour on the Red Line in the evening and on bus services. They still run though, because there is money to be made.

In a similar vein, the same applies to rail services over the christmas. If everyone was so eager to work 24/7 in a manner in which you appear to desire so much then yes there would be train services. However, most people have more sense.

[James Howard]

If you want to generalise this argument, I think there is a happy medium in this. For example, "traditionally" there was no need for busses leaving the city for the west after 6PM. When I was in college the furthest west you could get on Bus Éireann after 6 was Kilcock. Yet now there is a bus to Sligo at 11PM and you can get a bus the opposite direction that puts you in the airport at something like 5AM. Obviously tradition was wrong in that case.

I think there is a very strong case to be made for running the trains a bit later at night. It is simply ludicrous that the last train to Longford is 7:05. At the very least, Irish Rail could come to an arrangement with Bus Éireann to allow people with passes free or discounted travel on the later buses but with all of the investment in automation on the rail network over the last few years, there should be a train going at least as far as Mullingar. It would serve a lot more more people than the soon to be combined 7:05 and 9:05 services to Sligo.

The point is that the contribution of late services is more than just the passengers on that service. For each person on a 9PM train to Longford there would probably be a couple of extra passengers on the 7:05 who have either not bought a car or left it home because they have figured that the train is flexible enough to suit their needs.

That being said, to return to the original topic, the lack of services on Christmas day is of very little concern to 99% of the population. A skeleton service on Stephens' day might be desirable for Irish Rail's own benefit to avoid forcing people to try out direct airport buses (or city centre) that are probably easier for a lot of people than taking the train to Heuston.

[Thomas Ralph]

I expect a lot of people wouldn't use the Red Luas Line if an operated past 00.30. People just about feel safe during the day...

I am sure the Red Line did run until 03.30 at times before so demand isn't there.

Agreed. And the security staff are as much use as a kettle with no element.

[on the move]

as for the rest.... Temple Bar has got all the night links and several taxi ranks around it. have you actually been in o'connell street after midnight? The only thing going are the fast food outlets from abbey street to the bridge.

Lots of times. At the weekend after gigs at the Point, parties and sports events, it's as busy as a Saturday afternoon, as most major cities are in Europe. Yet there's only nitelinks and expensive taxis around after 1am here, and 24/7 transport there. Doesn't add up.

Your use of "public order" suggests you find that reason as doubtful, whcih is exactly what i started this off by saying. The only reason why there are no late night red line Luas is because it lost money hand over fist.

There are similar levels of anti social behaviour on the Red Line in the evening and on bus services.

When I was on Red Night Luas services, there was more passenges on them than services earlier in the evening. There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai, so there was no possibility of anti-social behaviour whatsoever. So the myth that all hell breaks loose only after 12.30 doesn't wash with me.

[Mark Gleeson]

There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai,

Thats the problem, having to massively increase staffing levels to ensure safety. The numbers don't stack up

[Thomas J Stamp]

Lots of times. At the weekend after gigs at the Point, parties and sports events, it's as busy as a Saturday afternoon, as most major cities are in Europe. Yet there's only nitelinks and expensive taxis around after 1am here, and 24/7 transport there. Doesn't add up.



When I was on Red Night Luas services, there was more passenges on them than services earlier in the evening. There were also at least 4 STT staff on each of them plus CSO's, and even Gardai, so there was no possibility of anti-social behaviour whatsoever. So the myth that all hell breaks loose only after 12.30 doesn't wash with me.

yes, we all agree there should be 24/7 services.

on this thread there are two different arguments being made as to why there isnt. one is that its down to cosy semi state union traditions. thats blown out of the water by the luas. the other is anti-social behaviour, which doesnt add up either.

the reality is that, unlike other cities, dublin really isnt a 24 hour city. A few night clubs, a few burger joints and a few 24 hour shops doesnt cut it in relation to passenger numbers for bueses/luas/dart running all night.

its simple economics. before taxi deregulation there was a massive amount of busses on the nitelink. as soon as one filled up the next one would pull in. thats over. during the boom years there was a decent service on the two luas lines. thats gone too. if there was a profit to be made those services would be running.

[on the move]

yes, we all agree there should be 24/7 services.

the reality is that, unlike other cities, dublin really isnt a 24 hour city. A few night clubs, a few burger joints and a few 24 hour shops doesnt cut it in relation to passenger numbers for buses/luas/dart running all night.

So what does?

Dublin is a major European city. It's not London Paris or Berlin granted, but it is the main hub of activity in this country, and when there are major public events on at night, the city's transport system struggles to cope, because extra services are not made available to meet clear demand at the time.

Even if Dublin wasn't a 24h city, it is still one of the few capital cities in Europe where public transport on 25.12 does not exist in any form. I can't defend that on any grounds, economic or otherwise.

[Thomas J Stamp]

So what does?

Dublin is a major European city. It's not London Paris or Berlin granted, but it is the main hub of activity in this country, and when there are major public events on at night, the city's transport system struggles to cope, because extra services are not made available to meet clear demand at the time.

Even if Dublin wasn't a 24h city, it is still one of the few capital cities in Europe where public transport on 25.12 does not exist in any form. I can't defend that on any grounds, economic or otherwise.

you seem to be wanting two things here.

how many major public events are there at night? Concerts in the 02/aviva/croke park would be major events, and you would imagine the number crunchers in BAC/Luas/IE have considered this. Outside of these events, and they are not every weekend for example, there would not be anything like the demand.

As for the 25th December, if you want to go into the city centre and wander around the empty streets on your own, off you go. Why the state should provide a bus and rail service for an almost non existant take up is beyond me.

[on the move]

you seem to be wanting two things here.

how many major public events are there at night? Concerts in the 02/aviva/croke park would be major events, and you would imagine the number crunchers in BAC/Luas/IE have considered this. Outside of these events, and they are not every weekend for example, there would not be anything like the demand.

As for the 25th December, if you want to go into the city centre and wander around the empty streets on your own, off you go. Why the state should provide a bus and rail service for an almost non existant take up is beyond me.

The reason the streets are (almost) empty, is because you can't get in or out of them.

Christmas means different things to different people. Some people think it's the biggest period of the year, others simply see it as simply another time of the year, where life goes on.

As for the major events, what about the NYE in College Green? Phoenix Park/Point Depot gigs? Croke Park/Lansdowne Road?? There's plenty on, on a regular basis.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The reason the streets are (almost) empty, is because you can't get in or out of them.

Christmas means different things to different people. Some people think it's the biggest period of the year, others simply see it as simply another time of the year, where life goes on.

As for the major events, what about the NYE in College Green? Phoenix Park/Point Depot gigs? Croke Park/Lansdowne Road?? There's plenty on, on a regular basis.


NYE tends to happen once a year. Croke Park/Aviva Gigs are few and far between. Phoenix park even moreso. Point Depot I already mentioned.

To say that "some" people see christmas as the biggest time of the year is a bit odd, I think we can safely put it into the "most" if not "vastly overwhelmingly most" category. But, if you want to call black white just to keep this thread going, off you go.

[on the move]

The point isn't whether events are on once a year or not, the point is when there are events on at all, the transport network schedule is inflexible and what is available is therefore full to bursting. Defending it on "few and far between" grounds is not good enough on the day itself. If you run it, people will use it.

Can't understand that people advocate that public transport should stop on a public transport forum, but there you go. If Greece can run a transport network with all their problems, Ireland can.

[Mark Gleeson]

Greece closed 50% of its rail network after the IMF showed up

There is no need for public transport on the 25th, and if there was the fact we have a network focused on the city centre it really won't be much use

There has in the past been attempts to provide service to connect with major events, but for the most part not used

1. Concert runs late, the scheduled plan can't change due limits on hours and existing timetable
2. Out of hours service -> overtime

[Jamie2k9]

on the move:

If you think these late night services would be well used then why did very few use them in the past. Can you recall NYE 2011? (am certain IE ran late night services, open to correction) or other events that late services were ran as good as empty.

[Inniskeen]

on the move:

If you think these late night services would be well used then why did very few use them in the past. Can you recall NYE 2011? (am certain IE ran late night services, open to correction) or other events that late services were ran as good as empty.

I don't believe Irish Rail have ever run late services in Dublin on New Years eve with the possible exception of the few occasions when late night DARTs were provided over the Christmas holiday period. Even then the normal service ceased around 2100 on both Christmas Eve and New Years Eve.

[Jamie2k9]

few occasions when late night DARTs were provided over the Christmas holiday period.

I see anyway my point is these would still run if enough people used them but they didn't.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The point isn't whether events are on once a year or not, the point is when there are events on at all, the transport network schedule is inflexible and what is available is therefore full to bursting. Defending it on "few and far between" grounds is not good enough on the day itself. If you run it, people will use it.

Can't understand that people advocate that public transport should stop on a public transport forum, but there you go. If Greece can run a transport network with all their problems, Ireland can.

Who is saying it should stop? I am saying that since it doesnt run on a few days because it plainly will be a black hole there is not point in starting it. You may recall we (and as i have mentioned many times, what is said on a board is just my opinion not policy) were against the re-opening of the WRC for that very reason.

If any decision public transport wise apes a Greek one, it is the WRC, wasting money we dont have on a service which isnt used, to gain the political partonage and benefits of a few public representatives and local power groupings. You may want to open a mini one every year on christmas day, thankfully, others dont.

And by the way, there is a full nitelink service after the NYE celebrations. Every year.