Free Travel for Over 65s on Irish Rail

[Eddie]

I wonder if the luxury that our senior citizens enjoy of having free train travel ought to be questioned in the light of:
- the recent additional subvention required to CIE
- the fact that the country is broke
- that Irish state pensions are very generous compared to other European countries
- that Irish pensioners are probably sharing little of the pain that the working population is in the form of tax hikes and welfare cutbacks
- that, as I understand it, Irish pensioners get other perks eg free electricity, telephone rental, medical cover
- that, as I understand it, UK senior citizens have to buy a senior citizen railcard to get just a third off train fares

I would hope that if fares equivalent to a discount of say 67% - 75% on adult fares would still make travelling by train very competitive whilst also giving the opportunity to our senior citizens to contribute towards their non-zero running costs. Concessionary child fares are falling firmly at the feet of the hard hit working population, who are also subsidising in full (along with the various bailout funds) the free travel available to their parents.

I don't expect to win a popularity contest over this post, but clearly their are more tax increases and spending cutbacks coming soon, and the burdan will need to be shared across a wider portion of the population.

[dowlingm]

Free travel is a price solution to an income problem but it is also a way to channel subsidy to IE while skating around State Aid issues. The question is to what extent do the various DSW scheme payments cover their costs. Certainly I would like to see most DSW holders converted to a travel warrant system which ensure they get to essential appointments without having a license for free leisure travel.

[lasno]

Is the age now 65? I thought free travel was available to those over 66.

[Mark Gleeson]

- the recent additional subvention required to CIE

I think you will find Irish Rail has gotten nothing extra at this point, more on that in coming weeks.

[Thomas J Stamp]

one thing that really galls me is people saying our social welfare system is overly generous compaired to, say, the UK.

it isnt, it is higher because our cost of living is higher. i was in belfast on saturday and was as surprised as ever at how low prices for run of the mill things are, and how competitive stores are. this isnt happenign down here. So their Social welfare is lower, thier cost of living is lower. free ESB and telephone isnt the whole thing is free, only a certain amount of units. I am sure that when we hear of pensioners freezing to death again this year nobody will be moaning about it.

There is an argument, which was commonly made during the boom, that because our OAPs worked all their lives during time of pittance wages and terrible living conditions that they have earned and deserve their pension and perks.

As usual in feck you jack i'm all right ireland, that attitude seems to have gone.

[dowlingm]

TJS: I think the problem with the system as it currently exists is that it creates a perception of inequity and thus resentment/momentum for cancellation outright rather than implementing something people would consider fair. A travel warranty/limited value smartcard would in fact bring the travel pass closer to the limited unit system used for telephones etc. As for the argument during the boom, the problem there was that promises were made to OAPs of a throughly unfunded nature, relying on future revenues to fulfill the promises. Unfortunately nobody will be brought to account for this deception.

[comcor]

Mostly it's filling empty capacity, but I would restrict it on trains leaving Dublin between 4:30 and 7 in the evening, especially on a Friday.

It's galling to be on the 5 o'clock to Cork and see some old fella get on with 90 seconds to go and getting a seat from someone who has paid €77 for the privilege an taken their seat 15 minutes previously. I've even seen people give up reserved seats in those circumstances.

[Thomas J Stamp]

TJS: I think the problem with the system as it currently exists is that it creates a perception of inequity and thus resentment/momentum for cancellation outright rather than implementing something people would consider fair. A travel warranty/limited value smartcard would in fact bring the travel pass closer to the limited unit system used for telephones etc. As for the argument during the boom, the problem there was that promises were made to OAPs of a throughly unfunded nature, relying on future revenues to fulfill the promises. Unfortunately nobody will be brought to account for this deception.

but the FTP goes from a long time before that, back to the 60s or the 70s, introduced by that renound carer for the elderly, CJH.

Mostly it's filling empty capacity, but I would restrict it on trains leaving Dublin between 4:30 and 7 in the evening, especially on a Friday.

It's galling to be on the 5 o'clock to Cork and see some old fella get on with 90 seconds to go and getting a seat from someone who has paid €77 for the privilege an taken their seat 15 minutes previously. I've even seen people give up reserved seats in those circumstances.

it was not allowed on surburban services at peak times when i first remember it but a quick check of the various sites tells me otherwise. wonder when this happened. I also think that it is very unfair to exepct a reserved seat holder to get up, sorry.

It reminds me of the old gits sketch from harry enfield, where the two lads stood on an otherwise enpty bus beside a pregnant seated woman, giving out about how people dont get up for old people.

[Colm Moore]

it was not allowed on surburban services at peak times when i first remember it but a quick check of the various sites tells me otherwise. wonder when this happened. Minister Brennan abolished the restriction about 8-10 years ago.

The vast majority of passes weren't valid at peak times, except certain passes for people who had disabilities, but who were working. The important point being that the transport operators could offer off-peak capacity cheaply, but peak capacity is the most expensive of all.

[dowlingm]

Minister Brennan abolished the restriction about 8-10 years ago.

The vast majority of passes weren't valid at peak times, except certain passes for people who had disabilities, but who were working. The important point being that the transport operators could offer off-peak capacity cheaply, but peak capacity is the most expensive of all.Not as long as you think - six years ago (http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2006/Pages/pr250906.aspx). Back when IE's commuter peak availability was probably approaching its worst point...

[James Howard]

It would probably make some sense to reintroduce some restrictions but to be honest they wouldn't be necessary on any of the services I use which are normally the 0545 Sligo to Connolly and the 1805 Connolly to Longford. The latter is usually standing room only to Maynooth but would be fine after that. The morning train would be quite important for people trying to make hospital appointments.

If you look at it holistically, it is probably a relatively cheap way of keeping elderly people active and it also provides a political fig-leaf when they need to cut back rural medical services. But I would guess that there will be some requirement for a bit of blood sacrifice in this area to satisfy our Lords and Masters in the Troika.

[dowlingm]

It would probably make some sense to reintroduce some restrictions but to be honest they wouldn't be necessary on any of the services I use which are normally the 0545 Sligo to Connolly and the 1805 Connolly to Longford. The latter is usually standing room only to Maynooth but would be fine after that. The morning train would be quite important for people trying to make hospital appointments.

If you look at it holistically, it is probably a relatively cheap way of keeping elderly people active and it also provides a political fig-leaf when they need to cut back rural medical services. But I would guess that there will be some requirement for a bit of blood sacrifice in this area to satisfy our Lords and Masters in the Troika.Except what's actually happening is that some NTA licenced services on competitive routes are now out of the DSW scheme (notably Aircoach Cork-Dublin) while others are in. This is being done to facilitate DSW's budget cap rather than any rational way to subsidise public transport. The description "a relatively cheap way of keeping elderly people active" is only entirely fair if it is DSW is bearing the cost rather than transport companies providing a hidden subsidy by providing services and being paid below cost for them. While there may be arguments about that being why state transport companies exist, there are many other reasons like spatial planning, environmental impact of private transport including avoiding the need to built extra road and parking capacity, providing service where a private firm won't etc. and we can only make the same euro split so many ways in what it's supposed to be achieving.

[Traincustomer]

There have been various newspaper and radio reports in recent days mentioning that a review of the free travel scheme is underway e.g.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0907/breaking32.html

It would appear to be an internal departmental review rather than one entailing public consultation (the latter may in fact prove quite worthwhile).

My personal thoughts in brief are that the free travel pass could be requested and then means tested (rather than handed out by default). Many senior citizens choose to drive/are driven (one respects that as their own business). It also ought to be a Smartpass as it is for Translink.

Other broad options could be limiting the pass by geographic area and or a small payment for each journey. I've actually spoken to a senior citizen who wouldn't have an issue with a small per journey payment (and that is because they realise the state of the economy - not because they have money to throw around).

Crucially it needs to be universally recognised that just because someone is a senior citizen doesn’t mean they having the life of Reilly. Due to the austere times we live in the reality is quite different for many senior citizens (through no fault of their own) with a variety of financial commitments to juggle (ranging from supporting children through third level due to various grant cuts to crippling costs of heating oil etc... etc...).

[jacko]

In Belgium a nominal charge is applied - as far as I can recall a senior return journey anywhere in the country is €5

[Mark Gleeson]

The first step is clearly to eliminate the fraud in the current system with a proper smartcard pass

There are too many exceptions and holes in the rules, its far too easy to get a pass. The whole companion routine is likely to be the first to go, can see no social justification for that, except where there is a medical requirement.

There are 700k passes, total annual budget for the program 75 million, thats basically one return trip Dublin Cork by rail for everyone (the true number is over 1million due companion passes). There is no audit trail on usage so there is no actual market value on the service used, but it pretty clear 75 million doesn't come close to the cost of the service provided.

Northern Ireland manages to administer a free travel system with a proper id card, virtually zero fraud and a complete audit trail on pass usage. So its possible .

[JohnDough]

What is country coming to lashing out at the disabled an Oaps whose only enjoyment is free travel on mostly empty trains and buses ,it sounds like sour grapes to me as there is a very low cost to Gov. as mostly used off peak!
As for the person who dislikes giving up their paid seat to a oldie that is just pathetic as they must have never been taught manners by their parents as this would be common courtesy by normal standards.Try to take away these passes then the Grey brigade will swing in to action and we all know what happenned before!

[Thomas Ralph]

What is country coming to lashing out at the disabled an Oaps whose only enjoyment is free travel on mostly empty trains and buses ,it sounds like sour grapes to me as there is a very low cost to Gov. as mostly used off peak!

Everybody needs to make a contribution, there can be no special pleading.

[Colm Moore]

What is country coming to lashing out at the disabled an Oaps whose only enjoyment is free travel on mostly empty trains and buses ,it sounds like sour grapes to me as there is a very low cost to Gov. as mostly used off peak!
As for the person who dislikes giving up their paid seat to a oldie that is just pathetic as they must have never been taught manners by their parents as this would be common courtesy by normal standards.Try to take away these passes then the Grey brigade will swing in to action and we all know what happenned before!

My mother (75) raised this with me today. She and her sister (80+) had discussed it and while they would like to see local travel remain free, they see no particular reason to not pay at least something towards long distance travel. The scheme here is remarkably generous (it even extends to Northern Ireland) and while cheap for government, is rather expensive for the transport companies.

[Jamie2k9]

I think the companion should be scrapped (I know some passes only allow pass holder) and a small fee of lets say €5-10 for a return journey isn't to much to ask. Majority of OAP's get most things free/reduced and there is no reason why they can't afford to make some sort of payment to words travel.

[Eddie]

Just a co-incidence or perhaps this forum has a wide and diverse readership?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/oaps-facing-5-travel-charge-and-electricity-cutbacks-3229651.html

[Thomas J Stamp]

Just a co-incidence or perhaps this forum has a wide and diverse readership?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/oaps-facing-5-travel-charge-and-electricity-cutbacks-3229651.html


civil servants dont make policy, interesting method of the government avoiding responsibility for a cut.

and yes, you would be surprised who reads this forum.

[JayneM]

Mostly it's filling empty capacity, but I would restrict it on trains leaving Dublin between 4:30 and 7 in the evening, especially on a Friday.

It's galling to be on the 5 o'clock to Cork and see some old fella get on with 90 seconds to go and getting a seat from someone who has paid €77 for the privilege an taken their seat 15 minutes previously. I've even seen people give up reserved seats in those circumstances.

I have to say I agree with the idea of restricting peak time travel and the sentiments expressed. I had a colleague recently who had reserved a seat on a train traveling out of Dublin in the morning (i am afraid i don't remember exacty the destination but he was travelling for work purposes) and had also broken his arm the weekend before. When he got on there was an old lady sitting in the seat and, given the social stigma he felt he couldn't ask her to move. So having paid for his reservation he spent the entire hour long journey on his feet.

[JayneM]

What is country coming to lashing out at the disabled an Oaps whose only enjoyment is free travel on mostly empty trains and buses ,it sounds like sour grapes to me as there is a very low cost to Gov. as mostly used off peak!
As for the person who dislikes giving up their paid seat to a oldie that is just pathetic as they must have never been taught manners by their parents as this would be common courtesy by normal standards.Try to take away these passes then the Grey brigade will swing in to action and we all know what happenned before!

John, I just noticed your comment there and would like to say that I was certaily tought manners by my parents and have given up my seat on many occassions to an elderly person. However, I agree with the sentiments expressed by those who resent giving up their paid seat at peak times. I am currently 7 months pregnant, working full time in a job that has me on my feet most of the day. At the moment I try to turn up early in order to get a seat on the journey home if possible, but I have to say the looks I have got if an 'ol' wan', to use the colloquial term, happens to hop on just after me when I have nabbed the last seat.

[Jamie2k9]

Over the last while I have noticed staff in particular at Connolly asking for ID and the lot from people with passes and only yesterday sombody was caught out and reported by them.