[Article] Healy Eames to appeal fine for boarding train without ticket

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0714/1224320064809.htmlHealy Eames to appeal fine for boarding train without ticket
GENEVIEVE CARBERY

A FINE GAEL Senator is appealing an on-the-spot fine for boarding the Galway to Dublin train without a ticket.

Fidelma Healy Eames yesterday said she was “shocked” to learn she could not purchase tickets on board the train. The Galway West Senator said she had done this only two weeks earlier and had produced counterfoils to prove it.

Details of the incident spread quickly across online forums yesterday and caused much angry reaction, after it was first posted by a user on website Boards.ie.

Anonymous user Captain Darling said he had been on the train. He claimed that when the inspector asked for a ticket Ms Healy Eames said “that she is a Senator and that she makes the law”. “She took bloody strips off him,” the user wrote. Such claims were yesterday denied by a party spokeswoman.

A statement from Fine Gael last night said Ms Healy Eames boarded the 6.50am Dublin train at Athenry station last Thursday “in a rush”. A spokeswoman said the train was early and already in the station when she arrived. She had boarded “on the understanding that she would be able to purchase a ticket on board, as she had previously done on recent occasions”. An inspector from the company’s revenue protection unit asked her for identity, the statement said.

“She produced her Seanad ID card. She offered to buy a ticket as normal. He told her she could not buy a ticket from him and fined her €100,” the statement said.

Last night Ms Healy Eames thanked another witness, Chris Tierney, for giving his “accurate account” on Twitter. Galway photographer Tierney took to the social networking service to counter allegations about her reaction.

“I was on the train next to the Senator; she wasn’t arrogant, didn’t use the ‘do you know who I am’ route,” he tweeted. Mr Tierney told The Irish Times her behaviour could at most be described as “righteous indignation”. The Senator “should have been let away with it” because the train had been early. Although he was not “ideologically aligned” with her, he wanted to “quash a witch hunt”. He tweeted a photo of his ticket to prove he was on the train.

The original post by Captain Darling was later deleted by the user, who declined a request for interview by The Irish Times.

Iarnród Éireann’s website states: “Tickets can only be purchased on the train if the ticket office is closed and if the ticket vending machines are not in operation.”

First elected to the Seanad in 2007, Ms Healy Eames ran for a Dáil seat in the last three general elections.

[Colm Moore]

http://fidelmahealyeames.ie/2012/07/13/clarification-re-senator-healy-eames-train-journey/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitterClarification Re: Senator Healy Eames’ Train Journey
July 13, 2012

“Senator Healy Eames boarded the 6.50am train to Dublin in a rush, at Athenry station yesterday morning (Thursday). She did so on the understanding that she would be able to purchase a ticket on board, as she had previously done on recent occasions. She was approached by an officer from the revenue protection unit on board who asked her for ID. She produced her Seanad ID card. She offered to buy a ticket as normal. He told her she could not buy a ticket from him and and fined her €100.

Senator Healy Eames was shocked to learn this as she had purchased two tickets on board just weeks earlier, in June. She showed the RPU officer the counterfoils which proved that they were both purchased on the train. Senator Healy Eames has appealed the fine.”


Emma Hynes
Fine Gael National Press Office

[Colm Moore]

The original thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056700153

[comcor]

I thought a vending machine in operation was not enough and there had to be a ticket office open?

If the same rules apply to Senators as TDs, she could use immunity if she was heading to an Oireachtas sitting.

[Mark Gleeson]

The key claim here "in a rush"

No sympathy, if the booking office was staffed (and there is no claim it wasn't) bang Irish Rail have a case

I'd guess Irish Rail have made damn sure they are in the clear right now and will probably make an example of the case. As to the on train behavour claims made in several locations, the CCTV will be interesting

I'd give short odds that the fine will be paid quickly to shut the story down

[Inniskeen]

Was on the same service a week previously. Doubt the train was early unless it left Galway early. In my experience most provincial locations do not dispatch trains ahead of time unlike Cork which does so as a matter of routine. The timing from Galway to Athenry is reasonably tight especially with the ongoing 5 mph restriction on the Lough Attalia bridge and it is thus relatively difficult to get to Athenry ahead of time.

Not so sure that Irish Rail's case will prove that rock solid. On the day I travelled the booking office at Athenry was open (as is normal) and the ticket machines appeared to be operational also (I saw people collecting tickets). I suspect that the ticket checker on the train sold a ticket (or tickets) although as I was a few bays away I am not 100% sure on that point.

I have definitely seen "regular" ticket checkers selling tickets on board inter-city trains on recent trips. It is also common for for tickets to be issued at the barriers at some stations, particularly in the Dublin suburban area. Like so much about Irish Rail the approach is not consistent.

[dowlingm]

The Oranmore station (closer to her I believe) will likely be unstaffed... although she still may have to schlep to Athenry depending on the stopping pattern adopted.

[Jamie2k9]

The key claim here "in a rush"

No sympathy, if the booking office was staffed (and there is no claim it wasn't) bang Irish Rail have a case

I'd guess Irish Rail have made damn sure they are in the clear right now and will probably make an example of the case. As to the on train behavour claims made in several locations, the CCTV will be interesting

I'd give short odds that the fine will be paid quickly to shut the story down

Couldn't agree more, she will need to set the alarm clock earlier in future...

[ThomasJ]

I think that if she is true in saying that she bought a ticket on board two weeks previous, then bits worrying that there's no uniformity in the system given that if you could buy a ticket on a train previously you'll think you can do it again.

This needs to be clarified.

[Thomas Ralph]

No sympathy if matters are as described. If she was shown discretion in the past, that is nice but she has to obey the law like everyone else.

[plant43]

The problem is which kind of IR employee you encounter first on a train.

If you encounter a ticket checker (or train guard/host), then you will usually be offered the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board.

However, if the a member of the RPU gets to you first then you will get a fine.

This is completely inconsistent and causes confusion such as this case.

Presumably, the senator encountered a ticket checker in the first case and a member of the RPU in the second case.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The problem is which kind of IR employee you encounter first on a train.

If you encounter a ticket checker (or train guard/host), then you will usually be offered the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board.

However, if the a member of the RPU gets to you first then you will get a fine.

This is completely inconsistent and causes confusion such as this case.

Presumably, the senator encountered a ticket checker in the first case and a member of the RPU in the second case.

this seems to be the problem onboard, although it is plastered everywhere that you MUST have a ticket BEFORE boarding the train.

there is an exception - the ticket office being closed and at the same time no Ticket Vending Machine being in operation at the station.

However, the mere presence of ticket issueing staff on the train will give rise to the impression that you can avail of that option, and, indeed, further, that if there is a regular ticket seller on that service, you may have grounds (slim) that you expected such a service to exist and you were willing to avail of it.

Guess that means the end of ticket vendors on trains so.

[plant43]

I don't think that it should mean the end of on train ticket vendors but I think the system needs to be changed to be more consistent.

In other countries (I am thinking of France here in partcular) if you board the train without a ticket, you can purchase one off the on board ticket inspector (for a supplement) if you present yourself to them immediately after boarding. If you don't do this and a ticket inspector finds you without a ticket then you get a fine. I don't see why this system couldn't be brought in for Irish Rail.

[comcor]

I really thought a TVM was not good enough. Considering they can't issue some types of ticket (family, child) and that they can be fussy about some cash payments (e.g. You can't pay with 2 €50 notes for a Dublin-Cork return), there has to be some kind of allowance made.

[karlr42]

The legal issues about ticket machines needs to be sorted out, as I understand there is some debate about whether you are obliged to use them if available as you are obliged to use a booking office.

The introduction of tag on tag off systems needs some clarification- if I cannot tag on at the start of my journey through no fault of my own(arrived in good time, but all readers are broken) then what? Am I guilty of not having a ticket?

[James Howard]

Would it not be possible to fit a TVM on the trains rather than relying on the availability of machines at a station? At least that gets rid of the too late excuse and makes it easier for the checker to verify whether or not the machine is working.

The present situation is both too strict and too lenient - you can get done for €100 but the application of this appears to be highly variable. But this fine is not much more expensive than a lot of tickets so in some cases it might be worth taking your chances. A rule that is inconsistently applied is inherently unfair.

Also, in a lot of cases, it is highly predictable when there will be a checker on board so if you pick your trains carefully, you need not bother with a ticket at all.

[sean]

I don't think that it should mean the end of on train ticket vendors but I think the system needs to be changed to be more consistent.

In other countries (I am thinking of France here in partcular) if you board the train without a ticket, you can purchase one off the on board ticket inspector (for a supplement) if you present yourself to them immediately after boarding. If you don't do this and a ticket inspector finds you without a ticket then you get a fine. I don't see why this system couldn't be brought in for Irish Rail.I'm with the Senator on this one - in the New York area in the U.S. Metro North and Long Island Railroads do on-train ticket sales as a matter of routine - but there's a significant penalty, 10-20% for doing that, v.s. quoted prices at the station, and I think there are discounts of about 5% for buying ticketes online, or at least there used to be. Note that the online ticket shop IIRC is just a mail order service, there's none of that variable pricing nonsense as they already have a simple but effective peak/off-peak system that works very well.

[plant43]

The present situation is both too strict and too lenient - you can get done for €100 but the application of this appears to be highly variable. But this fine is not much more expensive than a lot of tickets so in some cases it might be worth taking your chances.


Just to note that it's a 100 euro fine plus the fare that you should have paid.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Would it not be possible to fit a TVM on the trains rather than relying on the availability of machines at a station? At least that gets rid of the too late excuse and makes it easier for the checker to verify whether or not the machine is working.

although thats a good idea, it goes against the principal of not gettign on a train without a ticket. You cant have both.

I think that clarification has to be made on this, and at the moment we have this typical irish solution. If you are not allowed to get on a train without a ticket there should be no ticket sellers on the train. That is just plain logic. Otherwise you can get on the train without a ticket because there is a ticket seller on board to sell you tickets.

It is, I agree, totally arbitary. There is a ticket seller on the 0505 limerick-nenagh-dublin train, although on one occasion that i was using it he never left the drivers cab. However, I have never seen a ticket seller on any other of the ex-cork/limerick trains i have used in the early morning. If, for some reason, my only train was the 0505 and i was was buying tickets off him every day and the day he never left the cab i get done at the ticket barrier what defence do I have? None according to the rules as they stand. I have boarded a train without a ticket. Perhaps some of the other stations on the line are unmanned and have no TVM's, like Boombridge. Roscrea, however, is manned, although if i arrive right on time, it will be unmanned as the ticket seller is also the signalman.

What has to be done is -

1. Put TVM's into each station which is going to be unmanned, and make them issue all tickets and also accept all notes (as posted above) - it should also by default offer you the best value ticket.
2. In those stations where a TVM is not going to be safe, a notice in big letters to the effect that passengers from this station may pay on exit will be displayed. I undertsand that IE sometimes have staff in Boombridge handing out little validation slips to prove you are there.
3. No ticket sales on trains.

The other alternative is to have TVM's on trains, and you just know some smartass will be saying how they were on the Dublin-Cork train last month and used one, and when he got on the four car DART there wasnt one and thats why he has no ticket, so you can see why it may not be a runner.

[finnyus]

...

1. Put TVM's into each station which is going to be unmanned, and make them issue all tickets and also accept all notes (as posted above) - it should also by default offer you the best value ticket.

...


Completely agree. The TVM's should be smart. If time is peak-time, display a peak-time ticket otherwise display an off-peak ticket. In the case a few months ago when the 10E return tickets Cork/Kerry were available, I do not understand how these could not be simply added to the TVM. If after 0930, display 10E ticket... Surely the user interface on the backend of this system is not that complicated to allow IÉ to add/remove tickets and set up rules, e.g. time rules.

[James Howard]

The flaw with the current approach is that you will always be able to travel between Sligo, Belfast and Rosslare on the excuse that you got on in Broombridge. Judging by the state of the new shelters in Enfield and Kilcock, TVMs aren't going to last too long there either. I have also noticed that our ticket office (at Edgeworthstown - no TVM) has taken to being closed randomly in the morning once or twice a month.

[Thomas J Stamp]

i am not an expert on the TVMs, but i imagine they must be connected to some central computer in IE, which could easily then be hooked up to the reservation system and to the internet fare promotion system.

as for the sligo line thing, IE have been handing out little proof of boarding passes at boombridge (not sure how often it is) so there is a way of doing this. Having a crowd control thing using barriers would ensure that everyone gets one too.

Surely there are commuter stations in as bad, if not worse, places than BB though, cant IE look at how they are staffed/run?

[comcor]

London Fields comes to mind, but with 200K passengers a year, it may be worth the hassle.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are fairly significant issues with the TVM fares engine in terms of updating fares, but the ability to book etc could added fairly easily.

The goal is to have a TVM at every single station

[Colm Moore]

1. Put TVM's into each station which is going to be unmanned, and make them issue all tickets and also accept all notes (as posted above) - it should also by default offer you the best value ticket.The problem here is both legal and practical.

Legally, only a certain number of coins (50?) can be given in change and practically, there is only so much change that a machine can stock. Given that most stations aren't like a supermarket where change can be topped-up easily, this is a real issue (main and commuter statiosn will have a fair few people paying with coin). If you are buying, say, a €60 ticket and you insert two €50 notes, do you really want €40 back in €2 coins (or worse!).

2. In those stations where a TVM is not going to be safe, a notice in big letters to the effect that passengers from this station may pay on exit will be displayed. I undertsand that IE sometimes have staff in Boombridge handing out little validation slips to prove you are there.In Britain there is a system where there is a very basic machine that issues a 'ticket' that simply has the station and what time/date. There may or may not be a small charge.

3. No ticket sales on trains.On some routes, it can be more practical to sell the tickets on the train. And you may be stuck with having to sell family/child tickets.

The other alternative is to have TVM's on trains, and you just know some smartass will be saying how they were on the Dublin-Cork train last month and used one, and when he got on the four car DART there wasnt one and thats why he has no ticket, so you can see why it may not be a runner.Admittedly, DART is a gated system - except for Broombridge. :(London Fields comes to mind, but with 200K passengers a year, it may be worth the hassle.What do you mean?

[Thomas Ralph]

The goal is to have a TVM at every single station

You'll have to put in a new one at Broombridge every couple of days :)

[Mark Gleeson]

Its never been tried

Broombridge is actually in much better condition than the past. Irish Rail actually cleaned the station up and the vandals haven't yet returned to destroy it.

[Inniskeen]

It didn't look too cleaned up the last time I passed through (about two weeks ago) - there was the remains of a recent fire on the up platform.

[dowlingm]

Fined senator to meet Iarnrod Eireann about improving policies (http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/53649/fined-senator-to-meet-iarnrod-eireann-about-improving-policies)

[Thomas Ralph]

Or... how about this? People should allow sufficient time to buy/collect tickets, and travel on the booked train.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Senator Healy Eames gets the nail on the head here:

With the amount of publicity this issue has garnered a number of emailers have offered to be a witness to tickets being sold on board by Iarnrod Eireann (IE). The majority of comments and posts indicate that people thought, as I did, that you could purchase a ticket on board and not break the law. Thus, practice confuses and the public are fined.”

As i posted above, a policy of having ticket sellers on board contradicts the policy of "you must have a valid ticket before boarding the train"

even i am not as cynical as to suggest that this is actually a deliberate policy, i can understand that given the Boombridge situation (the Senator also mentions Thomastown) there may be a need for ticket sellers (or a voucher system at stations which are unable to sell tickets). However, why was there ticket selelrs on the Galway line? Any stations in that state there?

If you have a train on a line with all open stations still with ticket sellers, what message does that send out?

[Traincustomer]

Stations such as Clonmel and Rathdrum have text on the station specific timetable posters telling one to buy before boarding (evidently impossible due to the lack of either a ticket office or a TVM). Regular passengers are aware that it's customary to purchase from the ticket checker onboard the train. But this conflicting information between what the timetable poster says and what is practice on the ground can lead to confusion and undue worry for casual users.

To illustrate: whilst waiting at Rathdrum a few months ago a few intending passengers arrived who were evidently tourists (clearly had been camping/walking in the mountains). They were quite concerned about how to buy tickets. I assured them they could purchase from the ticket checker on the train. In due course the train came and they were seated at the opposite end of my carriage and purchased their tickets from the checker no problem. This happening is clear evidence that ticketing arrangements were unclear/conflicting/confusing to casual/occasional users/tourists.

Information at stations needs to be specific and national information templates need to be refined to reflect local/station specific arrangements. Every station should have information on display that accurately reflects the situation at that station. The test being that can a newcomer who has never used the station and knows very little about the Irish railway system can quickly and clearly discern what s/he must do in order to buy a ticket i.e. buy from ticket office/TVM or buy from checker on the train.

[Mark Gleeson]

The information at Athenry was specific to Athenry, i.e. it said Athenry station, and was on display at 3 locations within the station.

Woodlawn and Attymon are not staffed on the Galway line

What Irish Rail are doing is completely compatible with the law, i.e sell a ticket or fine, the law provides no guidelines on when to choose which option.

Note Irish Rail rely on the 'intent to defraud' under the rail safety act, which is almost impossible to prove, so far too many cases are thrown out at district court, were as Luas relies on a much easier 'failed/unable to produce a valid ticket' which is a much easier case.

[Inniskeen]

Or... how about this? People should allow sufficient time to buy/collect tickets, and travel on the booked train.

I have joined the 0635 from Galway at Athenry on numerous occasions and have never seen it depart Athenry early, although with so much padding in the timetables early departures are unacceptably common throughout the system. Galway/Athenry is fairly sharply timed and while an early departure from Athenry is possible, it is difficult to achieve given the temporary speed limit in the vicinity of Galway station unless the train also departs Gaway ahead of schedule.

Unlike Cork, early departures from Galway are not, in my experience, the norm.

[Traincustomer]

In relation to my post I was just pointing out the situation at the stations referred to and wasn't making any reference or inference to Athenry. I wasn't making any judgment on legalities either.

I was making the point that the information at these locations is less than clear and less than user friendly. I feel this is quite fair comment and given this is the sort of stuff being discussed in this thread I felt it was worth a mention here.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok, fair enough it doesn't concern the Galway line so perhaps I shouldn't have bothered posting it.

[Pilotman]

Its getting very close to the point where Irish Rail will have to have staff at the entrance gate of the station to meet and greet potential passengers.

Hold their hands, Guide them gently to the ticket machines or booking office and then bring them to the train. Make sure they sit down and are comfortable and then the train may leave.

Passengers are supposed to be in the stations in time to buy a ticket - if not they put up with the consequences.

Gates, at certain stations, are allegedly to be closed a few minutes before the departure of the train.

Has anyone any information on how often did this person had to buy a ticket on the train. Is it by any chance a 'habit' not to buy one in the station ???? Be interesting to find out.

This is a grown up person who knows the score. She is in a government position who should know better.

Me thinks she has done or attempted to do this before and the staff were getting fed up with it. The attitude may be 'don't you know who I am'. Don't question me mentality.

She got caught, didn't like it and screamed - tough. Pay up love - next please.

[Inniskeen]

Its getting very close to the point where Irish Rail will have to have staff at the entrance gate of the station to meet and greet potential passengers.

Hold their hands, Guide them gently to the ticket machines or booking office and then bring them to the train. Make sure they sit down and are comfortable and then the train may leave.

Passengers are supposed to be in the stations in time to buy a ticket - if not they put up with the consequences.

Gates, at certain stations, are allegedly to be closed a few minutes before the departure of the train.

Has anyone any information on how often did this person had to buy a ticket on the train. Is it by any chance a 'habit' not to buy one in the station ???? Be interesting to find out.

This is a grown up person who knows the score. She is in a government position who should know better.

Me thinks she has done or attempted to do this before and the staff were getting fed up with it. The attitude may be 'don't you know who I am'. Don't question me mentality.

She got caught, didn't like it and screamed - tough. Pay up love - next please.

Irish Rail should consider using the following wording on their website and at stations

"If you board a train where you could have bought (or collected) a ticket at a ticket office or from a ticket machine you risk a fine should you be challenged by staff on board the train or at the point of dis-embarkation". Covers all eventualities and inconsistencies.

There is still a potential problem if a station which is supposed to be staffed is not or if ticket machines are not accessible or working. I did have a recent experience whereby I booked a ticket online for collection at a station which was unstaffed (when it should have been staffed). Evntually picked up the ticket at Heuston having completed the outward part of the journey.

[plant43]

It should be as simple as "Buy a ticket at the station or pay more for it on the train (and not be able to avail of any discounts if bought on the train)".

[Inniskeen]

So what should I have done when having arrived at the station (about 15 minutes before departure) and being unable to collect my already purchased ticket and unable to buy another ?

You cannot oblige people to have a ticket before boarding a train if it is not reasonably possible to do so.

Consistency is vital in these matters unless Irish Rail want to shell out shed loads of money compensating people.

While the Senator is probably more at fault than Irish Rail in the incident which triggered this discussion, the inconsistent approach on Irish Rail's part will probably ensure the Senator pays no fine !

[Mark Gleeson]

Buried in the rules, allows a passenger to travel with a document which is exchangeable for a ticket to travel. So if you can't collect the ticket if you have a print out of the reservation or can show it on a phone you shouldn't have problems.

On trains carrying a ticket checker or train host, they should be carrying a train manifest with all reservations listed.

The inconsistency lies with the distinction between a ticket checker and an RPU officer, ticket checkers can't issue fines.

[Pilotman]

I remember seeing in a station in England some years ago three different methods of legally travelling on a train.

1. Buying a valid ticket in the booking office - if open.

2. Buying a valid ticket from a machine at anytime - booking office open or not.

3. If the booking office was closed and the ticket machine was out of order then there was another machine which would give you a Permit to Travel ticket.

The way it worked was that you put into the machine the amount of money for the journey if you knew it or just put in any amount and get your Permit to Travel.

At your destination station you were obliged to go to the ticket collector or booking office and present the Permit and pay the difference in the fare.

If you were 'checked' on the train you could pay the travelling ticket collector too.

So really you had no excuse for not having a ticket to travel.

Yes I agree Irish Rail needs to be consistent in their approach to people buying tickets etc.

Unfortunately we have people who study the routine in stations, on trains and at destination stations and know how to avoid paying.

I recall many years ago people buying tickets in Amiens Street to Killester although they were going further afield and were aware that more than likely they won't get caught at their destination station - so they take a chance.
That applied to not just the working man but also to your bank managers etc. They were all up for free travel if they could get away with it.

The Free Travel available to the elderly and those on disability etc abuse the system every which way.

The Government won't do anything about it - there was suggestions that new passes were going to be issued but I think thats been put on hold.

These Free Travel passes need to be renewed with a certain amount of security attached, on a regular basis so that the system doesn't get abused.
I've seen some people presenting their alleged Free Passes to bus drivers and they only amount to a piece of crumpled paper.

[comcor]

I believe the free travel pass will be updated when the full PSC card rolls out. I have no idea what the timeframe is for that though.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are some of the new social services cards out in the wild and they use the same chip and security as Leap card

[Pilotman]

A recent application for an OAP Free Travel Pass - the person was issued with the old type.

[James Howard]

I think I might need to take back anything positive I said about Ms Healy Eames. Getting in the papers for being fine once is unfortunate, twice is careless but three times is just wrong.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-senator-admits-her-car-seized-for-no-tax-disc-3188460.html

[Thomas J Stamp]

and the planning issue...