Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...

[Traincustomer]

A proposal is to be sent from Iarnrod Eireann to the National Transport Authority to provide an early morning service from Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh and Roscrea.

Fine Gael Deputy Noel Coonan says these proposals if implemented would see an early morning service stop in Roscrea at 6,38 and arrive in Dublin at 8.20, without having to change trains.

A number of additional services on the Nenagh/Roscrea line, would see one extra service in the morning and two in the evening, which will improve the number of services from four to seven.

The route changes need the approval of the National Transport Authority.

(above was posted on Tipp FM Radio's Facebook page today; one doesn't need a FB account to view it).

[Traincustomer]

Am neither connected with the Nenagh line nor any group associated with it. While this sort of innovation is exactly what is needed to "make a go" of railways in a rural/regional context, I ponder why such innovation couldn't have been applied on the South Wexford line where usage was generally higher and the overall line in better condition. It very much seems down to political football and comes across as unfair.

[Mark Gleeson]

You get bet this is a certain minister for something turning the screw. You can't get to Belfast, Cork or Limerick from Dublin before 9am but the minister doesn't seem to care

Given there is already a train from Waterford scheduled to arrive Heuston at 8:20 the story doesn't really fit

Train would have to leave Limerick at 4:55 am to make it work.

There really is no point until the track situation is addressed and things are sped up

Have to be a 3 coach as well as it won't fit at many of the platforms otherwise

[dowlingm]

If Alan Kelly wants to get serious about this line, he should flash the cash for CTC, LC automation and elimination, refurb of Nenagh-Borris-in-Ossory to 60mph line speed, a direct curve at Ballybrophy and train storage at Nenagh station for this service and the Limerick commuter. In reality he has cash for none of these things but wants a 100mph trainset to beetle over speed restricted bridges to make himself look good.

You get bet this is a certain minister for something turning the screw. You can't get to Belfast, Cork or Limerick from Dublin before 9am but the minister doesn't seem to careIf the Newry commuter service was dispatched from Connolly and picked up en route to Newry before turning back, you could get to Belfast by 0804 :D - it would only take about an hour or more longer than the equivalent bus and on 29000s and C3Ks to boot. :rolleyes:

(EDIT: just posted this on the TippFM FB thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA)

[Colm Moore]

It prompts this veido - which can be taken in several different ways.

5j2F4VcBmeo

[Jamie2k9]

If it was to happon (which it won't) do they have a 22000 to operate it?

[dowlingm]

Assuming those 22s in Heuston goods yard ever get out of dry dock, then yes.

[Destructix]

Can't see this happening or been a success due to time of journeys on that line. My girlfriend is from Limerick and turns into the hulk on a bus if its going slow and most people I know from Limerick are that crazy about journey times like her so I cant see that many people from Limerick choosing the slower route to Dublin. But at least Noel is only asking for one service in the morning which isn't much. The way Alan Kelly goes on you would swear the MK4s, Voyagers, TGV could come to Nenagh and sell a million tickets a day.

[comcor]

It's not going to do anything for Limerick-Dublin travellers. There will be other options that will leave later and arrive earlier. Leaving from Limerick is mostly a matter of the train being there and there being no point in it running empty.

What it's testing is whether there's enough demand for a Nenagh and Roscrea service to increase passenger levels on the line. I suspect there won't be without speed improvements.

People might criticise the minister because this line runs through his constituency, but at least he is trying things to save the line, unlike the previous minister with Waterford-Rosslare, which was just abandoned to its fate.

[doherty jack]

THe line between Killonan junction and Just past nenagh station is being signed off by engineers within the next 3 weeks once the limits are raised the new services will run over the line .

[Inniskeen]

You get bet this is a certain minister for something turning the screw. You can't get to Belfast, Cork or Limerick from Dublin before 9am but the minister doesn't seem to care.

Having already spent millions "upgrading" significant portions of the Nenagh line, it seems only logical to try and leverage some benefit for tax payers by providing services that might be of some benefit to the travelling public.

It may well be an uphill battle to save this line but at least Alan Kelly will have forced Irish Rail to make some little effort.

Incidentally you can't get to Dublin from Belfast before 0900 following an Irish Rail imposed service degradation in 2009 !

[ACustomer]

Quite apart from the fact that the track improvements to date have been at the Limerick end and are no use for Dublin-bound services from Roscrea or Nenagh, there is also the matter of the junction layout at Ballybrophy. In the UP dorection, not so bad, but DOWN trains have three reversals before setting out for Roscrea. A work of pure genius!

[Traincustomer]

Obviously these additional services require extra money but one wonders is the IÉ to NTA application to operate them of a:

(i) mere request to operate additional trains nature
OR
(ii) request to operate additional trains including a request for funding of same nature

A request of type (ii) may not necessarily be the case; perhaps IÉ can somehow obtain the requisite money/ balance it against savings elsewhere.

A request of type (i) is highly likely to succeed , a request of type (ii) is likely to be a bit harder.

(labels (i) and (ii) assigned for convenience of discussion and no importance attaches to them otherwise)

[Mark Gleeson]

I would imagine Irish Rail management are smart enough to be seeking extra cash in return for the service

Given the dire financial position (its seriously dire) it would be negligent to add extra cost onto the bottom line without additional support from the NTA.

Subsidy is down almost 50 million or more than 25% down over the last 5 years.

[Kilocharlie]

Going back to the suggested 0820 arrival in Heuston. Not withstanding that 0820 is allocated to the 0600 from Waterford, this is actually quite a busy time on this route with arrivals at 0810 (Cork),0815(Kildare), 0820(Waterford), 0833(Portlaoise), 0838(Westport),[sometimes reversed], 0840(Limerick), 0845(Cork), 0855(Portlaoise)[overtaken by the previous 2], etc.

The apparent 13 min gap between the 0820 (Waterford) and 0833 (0720 ex Portlaoise) is just the difference between a non-stop and stopping service- they have only a 5 min, and often less, gap in Kildare.

The only place they could squeeze an extra arrival is between the 0720 ex Portlaoise (Kildare at 0746) and the 0515 ex Westport (Kildare at 0855) with an arrival around 0835 and delay the Westport a minute or two. But even that could have consequential delays to the Limerick and Cork services.

[Jamie2k9]

Going back to the suggested 0820 arrival in Heuston. Not withstanding that 0820 is allocated to the 0600 from Waterford, this is actually quite a busy time on this route with arrivals at 0810 (Cork),0815(Kildare), 0820(Waterford), 0833(Portlaoise), 0838(Westport),[sometimes reversed], 0840(Limerick), 0845(Cork), 0855(Portlaoise)[overtaken by the previous 2], etc.



Platforms may also be an issue. 3 other arrivals between 07.45-08.10 and only two departures at 08.30, 08.35.

[dowlingm]

What is the equipment for the 0833 usually? Would it work to join an empty three car at Portlaoise to the incoming three set ex Ballybrophy?

After reading ACustomer's post I did have a thought that one option would be to make the service "up only" - a 22K dispatched ex Limerick via Ballybrophy but returned to Limerick via Limerick Junction with passengers for Nenagh transferring from a Cork/Tralee down service in the evenings to a "standard" Limerick-Ballybrophy shuttle service. But then it occurred to me that this train would still require someone to drive back the ETS staff if it "escaped" as did the GAA special that time. It's just a botch job, isn't it? Why is it necessary that passengers ex Nenagh get a free run when passengers from M3 Parkway must now shiver at Clonsilla in the hope the incoming Maynooth service won't be jammed?

[Kilocharlie]

What is the equipment for the 0833 usually? Would it work to join an empty three car at Portlaoise to the incoming three set ex Ballybrophy?


The 0833 arrival is the 0720 from Portaoise and is a 6-piece or 2x3. The 0515 ex Westport, howeve, is a 3 car.

[Inniskeen]

What is the equipment for the 0833 usually? Would it work to join an empty three car at Portlaoise to the incoming three set ex Ballybrophy?

After reading ACustomer's post I did have a thought that one option would be to make the service "up only" - a 22K dispatched ex Limerick via Ballybrophy but returned to Limerick via Limerick Junction with passengers for Nenagh transferring from a Cork/Tralee down service in the evenings to a "standard" Limerick-Ballybrophy shuttle service. But then it occurred to me that this train would still require someone to drive back the ETS staff if it "escaped" as did the GAA special that time. It's just a botch job, isn't it? Why is it necessary that passengers ex Nenagh get a free run when passengers from M3 Parkway must now shiver at Clonsilla in the hope the incoming Maynooth service won't be jammed?

Where is this stuff about driving ETS staffs about coming from ? There is a standard ETS instrument at Ballybrophy. The main difference from a normal ETS controlled section is that the staff is not normally placed in the instruments at either Roscrea or Ballybrophy except as required to faciltate the release of a staff at Ballybrophy for a train from the mainline to the branch or to release a staff at Roscrea after a train has left the branch. Operation of the various connections on the branch and between the branch and the mainline requires the ETS token to be at Ballybrophy.

[Destructix]

I would like to see services on this line but hope no more money is wasted on services if nobody is going to use it. At the moment this just sounds like they are giving CPR to a corpse and Iarnród Éireann have learned nothing from the WRC project.

[dowlingm]

Where is this stuff about driving ETS staffs about coming from ? There is a standard ETS instrument at Ballybrophy. The main difference from a normal ETS controlled section is that the staff is not normally placed in the instruments at either Roscrea or Ballybrophy except as required to faciltate the release of a staff at Ballybrophy for a train from the mainline to the branch or to release a staff at Roscrea after a train has left the branch. Operation of the various connections on the branch and between the branch and the mainline requires the ETS token to be at Ballybrophy.You may recall this post, which is what I was basing it on:
http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=63871&postcount=7
There is some (dated) discussion along similar lines here:
http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com/journal/item/2798?&show_interstitial=1&u=%2Fjournal%2Fitem

[Mark Gleeson]

In simple terms as there is no return trip proposed, the ETS staff is going to have to be brought back sometime. Its unclear if its a normal ETS instrument or a simple one as per Nenagh

The arrangements in Ballybrophy are not designed for daily use and appear to require a additional member of staff to operate a local signalling panel. Limerick Dublin is reasonably easy, Dublin Limerick is a nightmare

Regardless the journey Nenagh Ballybrophy is painful to say the least and nothing is going to change there, be fun to see how quickly the track deteriorates as an ICR is a lot heavier than a 2700.

No online booking either...

[Inniskeen]

In simple terms as there is no return trip proposed, the ETS staff is going to have to be brought back sometime. Its unclear if its a normal ETS instrument or a simple one as per Nenagh

The arrangements in Ballybrophy are not designed for daily use and appear to require a additional member of staff to operate a local signalling panel. Limerick Dublin is reasonably easy, Dublin Limerick is a nightmare

Regardless the journey Nenagh Ballybrophy is painful to say the least and nothing is going to change there, be fun to see how quickly the track deteriorates as an ICR is a lot heavier than a 2700.

No online booking either...

Yes I also understand there will be no direct evening service, but there will be additional services and improved connections.

As I said in my previous post there is signalling equipment at Ballybrophy jointly controlling (with CTC) the connection between the mainline and the branch. Amongst other controls this equipment requires the Ballybrophy/Roscrea ETS staff to be at Ballybrophy. The signalling equipment will presumeably be operated by the on-duty station staff.

This urban myth about there being some issue in returning the ETS staff (to Roscrea) is just that. Once the through service has left the branch and the signals and points are normalised, the ETS staff is simply popped in the instrument at Ballybrophy putting the ETS circuit in phase and allowing the signalman at Roscrea withdraw a staff. Job done, everything back to normal, sky still in place.

The setup at Nenagh in terms of ETS is different. The signals and points at Nenagh are controlled by a local groundframe, released by the Birdhill/Roscrea ETS staff. There is a special uni directional token to facilitate the Nenagh/Limerick commuter service.

[comcor]

Why no online booking?

I can understand with commuter services, but this is clearly not a commuter service.

It should be no difference from and other ICR leaving Limerick and going to Dublin.

[Destructix]

No TVM in Castleconnell Birdhill Nenagh Cloughjordan Roscrea some these stations can't get broadband (doubt machines like that would work on dial up) so probably never will be able to facilitate it. During the booking period for the GAA special you could buy tickets online which were collected in Thurles by Iarnród Éireann staff and brought to Nenagh that morning.

[Thomas Ralph]

Can I just make a point here.

This is a completely pointless show of political gombeenism, which is a major contributor to Ireland's current parlous financial state. National politicians should be having better things to be doing than trying to sort pet local transport projects.

There is absolutely zero logic in attempting to run a new train service that is going to take fifty people a day. That is what buses are for. There are commuter lines in Dublin where the trains are still rammed morning and evening and are crying out for investment. There is still only one airport in the country with a rail connection (and it's a tenuous one). This sort of carry-on needs to be cut out.

[Mark Gleeson]

Could not put it better myself, but sadly this is still Ireland and in North Tipp it's all about being the man who fixes things so Michael Lowry is a hero for his ability to get things done regardless of the sense in them the crazy casino idea for one won't be long before he starts claiming some input in this money burning exercise

[Traincustomer]

Not wishing to be negative but just realistic...assuming these extra services get the go ahead then patronage of them will have to be strong to very strong to sustain them and bring about an even half acceptable financial situation.

Lots of regular users. Also rail-based tour companies making use of at least two of the trains along the line on the regular basis. Sell SailRail tickets at both Nenagh and Roscrea. Look at all Bus Éireann and rural community buses that serve the towns that the train serves. Can any of them additionally act as feeders by serving a station? This kind of stuff and much more. (no one thing on its own might make a giant difference but the cumulative effect of numerous lower order things do add up but disappointingly attention to detail never seems to have been a strength of CIÉ).

If decent patronage across the board doesn't materialise within a reasonable timeframe (i.e. by the end of say a generous six to nine months) it is a reasonable conclusion that the whole line would close at that stage (wish to stress I'm not wishing that to be the case but just looking at things from a realistic perspective).

[Mark Gleeson]

Lets lose all the fancy tourist stuff, it doesn't pay the bills.

Its easy add a train, very hard to remove on and thats the game

[dowlingm]

Let's play along for one more minute...

If the train departed 0638 Roscrea then arrival in Ballybrophy would be 0701/0702. The 0654 would therefore have just left. Surely that stop would be deleted if this "interesting" plan got a go-ahead, which would accelerate the 0505 ex Cork by a couple of minutes or perhaps serve a more lucrative stop like Kildare instead?

Secondly, should the aforementioned train be a 2 x 22000 in the post 2700 era which seems to be approaching (and presumably the only reason IE didn't discount the idea by saying the 2700s couldn't keep pace on the mainline), could that second set then not turn back at Roscrea and form the Limerick commuter service instead? I realise there would still be the current northbound service to consider.

[Mark Gleeson]

None of the platforms are long enough for a 6 coach train, the bay platform in Ballybrophy is 30m short

[Thomas Ralph]

To take one of your examples, Traincustomer, SailRail sells a two-digit number of tickets on an average day. Honest answer please, how many people in the catchment areas of Birdhill, Roscrea, Cloughjordan, and Nenagh will buy one on an average day? I'd be surprised if it was more than half a dozen.

[doherty jack]

the bus stop is moving to nenagh train station as well , so the the train station there will be bus and train ! there is computers being put back into birdhill, nenagh and roscrea , the platform at
roscrea,cloughjordan,birdhill, can take 4 coachs or 6 cravens.
nenagh , castleconnel can take six coachs or 9 cravens! all stations along the line have recently been repainted , rewired and has all new platform furnitureand is getting new signs which nenagh already have the signs!

[dowlingm]

None of the platforms are long enough for a 6 coach train, the bay platform in Ballybrophy is 30m short
I was thinking of the 6 coaches only going as far as Roscrea then splitting as the 2700s currently split in Nenagh. The back three would be locked out until Roscreathe bus stop is moving to nenagh train station as well , so the the train station there will be bus and train ! there is computers being put back into birdhill, nenagh and roscrea , the platform at
roscrea,cloughjordan,birdhill, can take 4 coachs or 6 cravens.
nenagh , castleconnel can take six coachs or 9 cravens! all stations along the line have recently been repainted , rewired and has all new platform furnitureand is getting new signs which nenagh already have the signs!

Um... Cravens???? Bit late for that!

[Traincustomer]

I think the gist of my earlier post may have been misunderstood. In it I put forward a few low order ideas from tens of possible things. It could be likened to a small shop. Just because only two people a day buy a box of matches that doesn't mean one should stop selling them. Similarly if ten tourists a day visit the shop in summer and buy lunch items that's revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. This is the point I'm making. Nobody is saying these things pay the bills. It's the ethos of doing everything possible I was highlighting. It's the lazy not try one's best attitude of numerous institutions in this country that is partly responsible for so much unemployment and lost tourism.

[dowlingm]

It's the ethos of doing everything possible I was highlighting. It's the lazy not try one's best attitude of numerous institutions in this country that is partly responsible for so much unemployment and lost tourism.Right, but let's look at one of your suggestions in particular:
Look at all Bus Éireann and rural community buses that serve the towns that the train serves. Can any of them additionally act as feeders by serving a station?The answer appears to be a big fat NO. BE reacted to the Galway-Limerick service by inventing the 51X. They reacted to being handed the South Wexford line by routing services to the Quay and not to the railway station in Waterford. They are partnering with Gobus to hammer the Dublin-Galway rail service.

Of course the logical answer is that BE run a service from Colbert to Portlaoise with IE taking the passengers the rest of the way but that's not how it works with "the sister company". Instead, BE are likely to throw a few more buses on just to ensure that you'd have to be soft in your head to consider the rail over them.

[Traincustomer]

Was thinking of feeders in a more localised context e.g. Birr-Roscrea; Killaloe and surrounds to Birdhill

[dowlingm]

Was thinking of feeders in a more localised context e.g. Birr-Roscrea; Killaloe and surrounds to BirdhillIt would be great if they would do it - especially improving connectivity to Plassey/Annacotty from Castleconnell for instance - but there's no sign of any intention to do so.

[doherty jack]

departs limerick at = 5.15am, 6.25am,4.05pm and 17.05 all services going to bally and back!
5.15am will run stright through bally

6.25am will connect with the 7.35 limerick - Dublin(via thurles)

4.05pm will connect with 16.30 Cork -Dublin

5.05pm will connect with 17.30 Cork -Dublin

services from dublin 9am , 5.05pm & 6pm (all change at ballybrophy )

there is no commuter service coming from limercik - nenagh in the evening but morning one still excists!

[Mark Gleeson]

Bye bye the line so, impossible to commute Nenagh Limerick

[doherty jack]

the new service , altough a massive improvement , the departures from dublin arent geared towards commuters as the last train departs at 6pm

[Mark Gleeson]

A hell of a lot more people in Nenagh work in Limerick than they do in Dublin so that should be the priority

Providing a train which is curiously timed to suit get to/from Kildare street for a 9 to 5 isn't exactly great

[dowlingm]

Talk about moving the deckchairs on the Titanic...

[James Howard]

Providing a train which is curiously timed to suit get to/from Kildare street for a 9 to 5 isn't exactly great

In fairness, it has been a long time since a TD darkened a door in Kildare street at 9AM.

[brompton7]

I use the commuter service every day. I hold an annual ticket. Are the proposed 1605 and 1705 services the only services heading North in the evening? I just can't understand the logic here. :mad:

[comcor]

Do many people live in Nenagh and work in Limerick City Centre?

I've always had the impression that with the exception of Cork, not that many people work in Irish regional city centres as office parks are all on the outskirts.

I've always seen UL as a potentially greater source of traffic if there was a feeder bus to Castleconnell or even a new station built around the Annacotty area.

A few questions
- Why does the service have to be at 5.05? Could it not be an hour later and connect with later services on the Cork-Dublin line? Why is the existing slot no longer possible?

- Would this add a Ballybrophy stop to the 18:00 Dublin-Cork? This is already one of the most overcrowded InterCity services leaving Dublin.

- Has there ever been a study done that compared the effects of increasing frequency relative to speed improvements on a rail line?

[Inniskeen]

Bit confused by your question. Are you talking about the morning service from the Limerick direction (there is a second train at 0625) or the evening service from Dublin (there is a second train at 1800).

As regards the additional stop on the 1800 to Cork, I would have thought the 1700 to Cork was the busier service and I have never really had difficulty getting a seat on that or indeed the 1705 to Tralee which normally has at least 100 spare seats available.

Yes numerous studies have been done - the figure I have often heard quoted is that a 1% reduction in journey time equates to a 1% increase in patronage.

The timetable quoted seems to be fairly cleverly thought out. The use of non-stop services from Heuston to Ballybrophy will compensate to some degree for the very slow running between Ballybrophy and Nenagh. There also appears to be a ten minute acceleration between Limerick and Nenagh in both directions which aids scheduling.

Restoration of the general 70mph (currently 50 mph) speed limit between Killonan and Nenagh should be possible given that the line has been comprehensively renewed, although this doesn't seem to be on the agenda at present. Probably, of more signifigance and relatively easily achievable would be an increase from 30 mph to 40 mph between Ballybrophy and Nenagh, a move which would save 15 minutes to Nenagh.

In fact it is interesting that adding together the journey time from Dublin to depart Ballybrophy (achievable in 60 minutes), Ballybrophy to Nenagh (approx 45 minutes at 40 mph) and Nenagh to Limerick (potentially 45 minutes at current speed limits) yields a journry time of 2hours-30 minutes, slower than via the Junction, but in many instances by no more than 5 - 10 minutes !

Moving into the realms of the possible rather than the probable, assuming a Nenagh-Ballybrophy line upgrade and a direct curve at Ballybrophy, it would be possible to take advantage of the shorter mileage anf deliver direct Limerick to Dublin services via Nenagh in about 1hour 50 minutes. If this experiment is successful, such an outcome might just be achievable in the longer term.

Maybe Ballybrophy to Limerick isn't doomer after all. Time will tell.

[dowlingm]

A few questions
- Why does the service have to be at 5.05? Could it not be an hour later and connect with later services on the Cork-Dublin line? Why is the existing slot no longer possible?Here's a guess - moving the first service on the line earlier has done a number on staffing and therefore they have to knock off earlier to compensate?

[Inniskeen]

Sorry it appears I misinterpreted the question.

It would not be possible to run the existing evening service to Nenagh as it would conflict with the connection from Ballybrophy off the 1705 from Dublin. The 1745 from Limerick could run to Birdhill subject to their being a driver and set available. Indeed the 1745 could be defered to 1805 to give services from Limerick to Birdhill at 1605, 1705 and 1805.

[doherty jack]

it came up in one of our meetings that a proposed platform at annacotty adjecent to the level crossing , to serve the college with a shuutle bus .


also a later train to replace to 5.05 cant be put on because the 5.05pm from limerick will cross the 18.25pm to limerick at Roscrea at 18.40pm ! unless they run a 17.20pm and 18.20pm from Limercik , but once they get to bally there might not be connections!!

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not helped by the fact Birdhill only as one usable platform

Doing the numbers, number from Nenagh line to Dublin in pm - low. Number from Limerick to Nenagh and Dublin to Nenagh possibly double digit, so what if the evening train from Limerick doesn't make a great connection?

[doherty jack]

its pointless if it doesnt make a connection at ballybrophy , if people know the about service , it will run empty from nenagh - ballybrophy just like the current evening service where there is a 40min wait at Ballybrophy! people will get on at nenagh , clough ,roscrea for a service to dublin!

[Mark Gleeson]

But they won't at 6pm, 6am maybe

[doherty jack]

if there is a service , and people know about it , they will use it!! but connections at ballybrophy are essinatial , there is no point for it just running to bally which is in the middle of no where! and back , pointless

at roscrea at the evening train when they cross only one will serve the platform 1 , due to no platform footbridge 18.25 to limerick will not service Roscrea !!

[Mark Gleeson]

If IE go with 17:05, they lose every single potential commuter from Nenagh to Limerick by rail and thats the lines biggest potential market

Rail is good at two things, short distance commuters and long distance. Regional services (Nenagh Dublin is clearly that) are a nightmare

[doherty jack]

they really have to change this timetable defindailly the evening services fromlimerick , referr them to 17.2o and 18.2opm thats the only way , there is a huge market waiting! but the service to dublin and from dublin provide the most people travelling on train daily ... the dublin services will be used , without a doubt . :)

another idea would be to divert the 17.25pm to limerick via nenagh cross them at roscrea , so day trippers that went up to dublin can get an early train home! then cross the 18.20pm from limerick at birdhill with the 17.25pm

[Mark Gleeson]

But platform 2 is not available to passengers at Birdhill

[doherty jack]

birdhill wouldnt really matter , but with these services they would be important to the area , so they should cross at nenagh that would work with to timetable also , just push them into the sidings at nenagh and let the 17.25pm run stright through , then push the 18.2o to the platform at run it to roscrea to cross the service coming back from bally !!:D

[Mark Gleeson]

Can't do that, as you would have to wait for ages before being able to proceed, its not doable

So what could be done is for the Ballybrophy Limerick train to skip Birdhill, or we play a game with Irish Rail to reinstate the platform.

[doherty jack]

Can't do that, as you would have to wait for ages before being able to proceed, its not doable

So what could be done is for the Ballybrophy Limerick train to skip Birdhill, or we play a game with Irish Rail to reinstate the platform.

all we need is a footbridge at roascrea and possibliy birdhill but as the the timetable which is going to come into place on the 5th march , trains are booked to cross at roscrea so we need a footbridge first!.. it would be possible cross trains nenagh as the signalling is altered , at if on time the 17.25pm would be in nenagh at 19.25pm and the 18.20pm would arrive at 19.05 so it should be deferred 18.30pm arriving at 19.i5 .. pull into the siding at nenagh let the 17.25pm go through and bobs your uncle!!:D :)

[Mark Gleeson]

It's impossible to hide in the siding in Nenagh, as you would have to wait for the other train to either reach Roscrea or Birdhill, before the signaling system would release the staff. The bodged signaling solution allows for a train to split only (and only if it originated in Birdhill). So looking at a very long wait. Siding is off limits to in service passenger trains as well

The second platform is Roscrea is still registered as a available and has been used for passengers in recent years.

[dowlingm]

all we need is a footbridge at roascrea and possibliy birdhill An accessible bridge if not currently present. Ching ching!

[Colm Moore]

all we need is a footbridge at roascrea and possibliy birdhill (Footbridge + 2 stairs + 2 lifts) x 2

You are unlikely to have change out of €500,000.

[Destructix]

They could take them ugly old footbridges from Thurles and Templemore and reuse them. Modern stations but footbridges from the 1840s still remain.

.





__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
Is it Virginia O'Dowd or Alan Kelly putting these mad promises of the impossible into peoples heads?

[dowlingm]

I've only passed through Birdhill once on a Limerick-Ballybrophy service and that was more years than I care to remember so I don't know if this would even work - is it legal to open a second entrance to a station to a remote platform, stick a TVM on it, and deem that platform legal without a bridge or tunnel to the other platform?

[Mark Gleeson]

Any footbridge installed has to be accessible under the regulations in force

[Mark Gleeson]

Well the truth is Irish Rail have made NO request as this time to apply for a timetable change

[Inniskeen]

(Footbridge + 2 stairs + 2 lifts) x 2

You are unlikely to have change out of €500,000.

Lets get real here. Why the hell do you need a footbridge in either Roscrea or Birdhill. What is wrong with a Luas style walkway linking the platforms at one end, directly under the supervision of the signalman.

This arrangement applied for years at Newry, whereby a gate was opened by station staff and passengers with luggage or those unable to negotiate the footbridge were conducted across the line when safe to do so.

Such an arrangement at Roscrea and Birdhill would probably be safer than a footbridge given that the risk of being hit by a train is probably much less than that of tripping on the steps of a footbridge.

[Thomas Ralph]

Lets get real here. Why the hell do you need a footbridge in either Roscrea or Birdhill. What is wrong with a Luas style walkway linking the platforms at one end, directly under the supervision of the signalman.

New arrangements like this are not allowed under relevant safety legislation. Existing arrangements are grandfathered.

[dowlingm]

Any footbridge installed has to be accessible under the regulations in forceRight, but what if you had two platforms with two separate entrances, i.e. no bridge? Are IE required to connect both platforms together? I realise it is a ridiculous way to run a railroad where you essentially have two halts across the track from each other but the alternative is spending a six figure sum...

[Mark Gleeson]

A separate entrance is acceptable provided it is accessible.

When we drew up a plan for the line years ago, we managed to get away without needing a second platform at any station, the Kilmastulla headhunt could be cheaply turned into a loop thus avoiding the hassle

The UK solution is for a long platform with the loop half way down so two trains use the same platform

[dowlingm]

When we drew up a plan for the line years ago, we managed to get away without needing a second platform at any station, the Kilmastulla headhunt could be cheaply turned into a loop thus avoiding the hassle

The UK solution is for a long platform with the loop half way down so two trains use the same platformInteresting! I wonder how much extra capacity could be generated on congested single track sections like Maynooth-Longford, Athlone-Portarlington or Waterford-Athy with that sort of ingenuity, maybe Sixmilebridge too. It's unfortunate how many stations are compromised from platform extensions by overbridges nearby and the like.

[Inniskeen]

New arrangements like this are not allowed under relevant safety legislation. Existing arrangements are grandfathered.

Luas is realtively new, there are literally thousands of Luas movements through similar crossings daily.

In any event neither Birdhill or Roscrea could be described as new !

This type of rubbish costs a lot of money. Access the risk, take appropriate mitigation and bobs your uncle, job done.

If the RSC has a problem, then maybe the RSC is the problem.

[dowlingm]

In any event neither Birdhill or Roscrea could be described as new !But if the 2nd platform was signed out of use it might as well have been bulldozed, yes?

[Inniskeen]

Both platforms at Roscrea and Birdhill are entirely intact. The second platform at Nenagh is also intact although the track serving it is long gone.

[doherty jack]

Well the truth is Irish Rail have made NO request as this time to apply for a timetable change

an application has been the timetable is drawen up and the services are coming in on the 5th march!

[doherty jack]

It's impossible to hide in the siding in Nenagh, as you would have to wait for the other train to either reach Roscrea or Birdhill, before the signaling system would release the staff. The bodged signaling solution allows for a train to split only (and only if it originated in Birdhill). So looking at a very long wait. Siding is off limits to in service passenger trains as well

The second platform is Roscrea is still registered as a available and has been used for passengers in recent years.

trains can cross at nenagh , engieering trains have done it!i know the signalmen at roscrea very well and it is posssible , but the ICR has sat in nenagh for a while in 2007 ....

roscrea platform is useable ...but there is no means to acess it without walking across the line! and trains are scheuled to cross at roscrea at18.40pm when the service comes in !

roscrea the birr platform ,has not been used since the 1980s for passenger transactions , passenger trains have pulled in but you are not let out of the train !

[Mark Gleeson]

YOU CANNOT put a passenger train with passengers onboard in the siding in Nenagh, its not allowed under the signaling rules.

YOU HAVE to wait until the other train reaches Roscrea or Birdhill before the train can be unlocked out of the siding, so unless you fancy a 40 minute layover its not a workable solution

[Thomas Ralph]

Luas is realtively new, there are literally thousands of Luas movements through similar crossings daily.

Different rules for light and heavy railways. Luas crossings are fully flat and there is a speed limit of I think 30km/h going through, plus all Luas trams are all-stops.

[brompton7]

FYI - 'Boost for local rail service. Deputy Noel Coonan has welcomed Iarnrod Eireann’s proposal to the National Transport Authority to provide an early morning service from Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh and Roscrea. Under the new Spring/Summer schedule, Iarnrod Eireann is planning to expand its service which will be of very welcome news to those living in the environs of Roscrea and Nenagh said Deputy Coonan.
He said: “I have been informed that Iarnrod Eireann is proposing a number of additional services on the Nenagh/Roscrea rail line, one extra service in the morning and two in the evening which will improve the number of services from four to seven.” said Noel. He added: “This early morning service is planned to stop in Roscrea at 6:38am and arrive in Dublin at 8:20 without having to change trains. This should be a very appealing options to commuters in the North Tipperary and South Offaly area.”' The Nenagh Guardian, 18 February 2012, p. 3, accessed 17 Feb 12 via http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/NenaghGuardian/
Am I to infer from this that existing commuter times are to be preserved? 'Extra' being the operative word?

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail have made no submission to the NTA and I have that in writing so who knows where all this is coming from

[Destructix]

New Train Times On Ballybrophy Line

TIPPERARY STAR
Published on Wednesday 15 February 2012 10:14

IARNROD Eireann are to announce a new initiative in an attempt to improve passenger numbers on the Ballybrophy line, according to Deputy Noel Coonan.

The line serves Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan and Roscrea, with trains to and from Dublin and Limerick. It was earmarked to be closed under the McCarthy Report.

However, Deputy Coonan has welcomed Iarnrod Eireann’s proposal to the National Transport Authority to provide an early morning service from Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh and Roscrea.

Under the new spring / summer schedule, Iarnrod Eireann is planning to expand its service which, he said, “will be of very welcome news to those living in the environs of Roscrea and Nenagh. I have been informed that Iarnrod Eireann is proposing a number of additional services on the Nenagh / Roscrea rail line - one extra service in the morning and two in the evening, which will improve the number of services from four to seven.”

He revealed that the early morning service was timed to stop in Roscrea at 06.38 and arrive in Dublin at 08.20 without having to change trains at Ballybrophy.

“This should be a very appealing options to commuters in the North Tipperary and South Offaly area,” continued the TD.

“These route changes require the approval of the National Transport Authority, and I will be supporting Iarnrod Eireann’s proposal and calling on all public representatives and ministers to ensure this positive additional service will come to fruition. It will greatly improve commuter travel options for those living in Roscrea and Nenagh,” said Deputy Coonan.

Junior Minister for Public Transport Alan Kelly, whose remit includes train services, said: “While it would be premature to announce any changes for the line, I hope to be in a position to do so in a very positive way in the near future. I would like to thank all those public representatives who have been so supportive of my endeavours to date.”

He told the Tipperary Star that he was “working extremely hard with Irish Rail to improve the service on the Ballybrophy line, especially with regards to its services to Dublin”.

Deputy Kelly also congratulated Nenagh Rail Partnership on the way they had worked with Irish Rail and himself on this matter. The partnership, which is chaired by Nenagh’s Mayor Virginia O’Dowd, was set up almost eight years ago to lobby for extra services on the line and secured an early morning commuter service from Nenagh to Limerick in 2009. It also secured an extra train service from Limerick in the evenings.

A spokesperson for the partnership said: “Nenagh Rail Partnership has been working closely with Minister Alan Kelly, Junior Minister for Transport, and we would expect any official announcement to come through his office.”

Not going to get into the whole intercity part of this line too much but can see it having the same fate as the commuter service. But more commuter services when the people aint using the ones they have already have is stupid.

[doherty jack]

Irish Rail have made no submission to the NTA and I have that in writing so who knows where all this is coming from

well we are launching the timetable this monday in nenagh .......

[doherty jack]

i would in 12months , IE will try to close the line becuase they will say that they made an attempt to improve services but there is low patronage!! :mad:

[doherty jack]

YOU CANNOT put a passenger train with passengers onboard in the siding in Nenagh, its not allowed under the signaling rules.

yes you do put a train with passengers onboard agreed.

YOU HAVE to wait until the other train reaches Roscrea or Birdhill before the train can be unlocked out of the siding, so unless you fancy a 40 minute layover its not a workable solution

it can be ..... but its complicated the subsitary electric train staff , its kind of operated like roscrea b cabin ..if your farmiler ...

buts its quite time consuming and hard to control passengers going to two different places on the one platform and the fact that nenagh station wont being staffed for the two evening trains from limerick !

[karlr42]

well we are launching the timetable this monday in nenagh .......

So it would seem.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4483&p=116&n=237

[Jamie2k9]

Suprised to see a new 13.40 direct to Limerick and I prosume it will save IE having to send an empty train to operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings.

[brompton7]

This timetabling is surely fatal to the commuters that use the service. Nobody that I know that leaves work at 1700 can effectively get the 1705 service. Likewise those that finish at 1600 will not now be able to make the 1605 service, they must wait until 1705. Despite this, there seems to be a 15 minute connection window in Ballybrophy. It takes me 10 minutes precisely to cycle from the hospital, where I work. A bus journey takes about that from Raheen with a 5 minute walk from O'Connell street drop. Why has this happened without consultation with the USERS of the service??? Why was there no dialogue through which some compromise could be reached? This is madness.

[dowlingm]

This timetabling is surely fatal to the commuters that use the service. Nobody that I know that leaves work at 1700 can effectively get the 1705 service. Here's the thing though... were there that many commuters? I remember stories of the northbound being terminated at Birdhill for lack of trade in the evenings. Brompton7, from your experience what were loads like on the services you used?

Mark G - is it possible for IE to make this sort of adjustment without NTA approval? If not there seems to have been some porkypies told. {EDIT - just re-read the release which claims NTA approval}

[comcor]

Out of interest, how did this line escape the axe historically?

Would patronage have been that much better than on Dublin-Cavan, Limerick-Tralee and Waterford-Dungarvan?

[dowlingm]

There was Kilmastulla shale traffic as well as the passenger up to recently and they didn't spend a bob on the track for years so I guess it stayed off the beancounter radar that way.

EDIT:
Limerick dep 1705
Ballybrophy arr 1904 (terminates)
Ballybrophy dep 1919
Heuston arr 2028

Seems odd that they are allowing 15 minutes in the evening - for the morning 0625 departure only nine minutes is deemed sufficient for the connection. A 1711 departure isn't much but it might at least let some Plassey people make it to Castleconnell. Also I note there is no timetabled speed increase on the branch despite rumours elsewhere that it might be forthcoming.

There's another oddity in the 1705 service - no stop at Roscrea but the journey time between Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy is timetabled for four minutes LONGER. Shome mishtake shurely.

[brompton7]

I do not fully understand completely why the commuter services have poor patronage. It's probably multifactorial - unreliable / slow / uncomfortable / no marketing / societal inertia changing transport modes. A factor is naturally timetabling. A commuter service, for it to be called such, should be scheduled around the activity of its market. I don't think it really is currently, and under the proposed timetable, it certainly is not. Increasing the speed on the line as far as the CWR allows and reducing the 15min wait in B'brophy may allow a slightly later departure from Colbert. Even a 1720 or 1730 departure would capture more of the market the clock off at 1700. A sign off on a speed increase as far as Nenagh may also help it compete with the motorway.

[doherty jack]

This timetabling is surely fatal to the commuters that use the service. Nobody that I know that leaves work at 1700 can effectively get the 1705 service. Likewise those that finish at 1600 will not now be able to make the 1605 service, they must wait until 1705. Despite this, there seems to be a 15 minute connection window in Ballybrophy. It takes me 10 minutes precisely to cycle from the hospital, where I work. A bus journey takes about that from Raheen with a 5 minute walk from O'Connell street drop. Why has this happened without consultation with the USERS of the service??? Why was there no dialogue through which some compromise could be reached? This is madness.

i totally agree with you as it should be defeered until 17.20 and 4.20! but this timetable is complety geared towards dublin only it seem , i have the draft timetable!
they might be defeerfing it to 4.15 and 5.15 !! as i just heard

[doherty jack]

There's another oddity in the 1705 service - no stop at Roscrea but the journey time between Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy is timetabled for four minutes LONGER. Shome mishtake shurely.

trains cross at roscrea , it is timeconsuming!


we launched the timetable in Nenagh(10am) and Roscrea (11.30am) today :) :) :) :D

[doherty jack]

I do not fully understand completely why the commuter services have poor patronage. It's probably multifactorial - unreliable / slow / uncomfortable / no marketing / societal inertia changing transport modes. A factor is naturally timetabling. A commuter service, for it to be called such, should be scheduled around the activity of its market. I don't think it really is currently, and under the proposed timetable, it certainly is not. Increasing the speed on the line as far as the CWR allows and reducing the 15min wait in B'brophy may allow a slightly later departure from Colbert. Even a 1720 or 1730 departure would capture more of the market the clock off at 1700. A sign off on a speed increase as far as Nenagh may also help it compete with the motorway.

the engineers wont raise it to 60mph because they said we only got money to raise as far as 50mph!! and its not even as far as 50mph in alot of places!

[brompton7]

the engineers wont raise it to 60mph because they said we only got money to raise as far as 50mph!! and its not even as far as 50mph in alot of places! I am simply gob-smacked. Not only at this, but at Irish rail pseudo-publishing a timetable that apparently comes into effect 14 days time, that is still sort-of-a draft, without NTA approval & zero consultation with paying customers. Abject disappointment.

[doherty jack]

I am simply gob-smacked. Not only at this, but at Irish rail pseudo-publishing a timetable that apparently comes into effect 14 days time, that is still sort-of-a draft, without NTA approval & zero consultation with paying customers. Abject disappointment.

the timetable is avaible at irishrail.ie , NTA have approved it today , thatsb why its on the website , the reasons the service cant have later trains from limerick is because of connections to/from dublin /cork/tralee

[karlr42]

Will you be using any of the new services regularly doherty_jack?

[brompton7]

Don't get me wrong. I think any up-service of this line is positive. It disappoints me that I probably now won't be able to use it anymore and the annual ticket that I have spent 1300eur on is destined for the bin. I must now add my car to the mayhem of rush-hour traffic. If Irish rail are sure that enhanced Dublin oriented services are the lifeline the line needs then I fully endorse that, if the alternative is closure. Its just that the margins for the existing commuters in the evening are so small and some intelligent design may have allowed for existing patrons to remain. I'm on the service now!! and I look around at the regulars and think we are soon to be ghosts. Pity.

[doherty jack]

brompton7 - i agree with you yer the ones who used the struggling service , now yer are being let down ! tis a pity but 17.05 is the last service now:(
if you could let me know the numbers that use daily ... and if its enough ill discuss with Virgina O Dowd and we`ll mention it to Jim Galivan:)

i only use the service on weekends .

[dowlingm]

I just went back upthread and noted that doherty_jack had flagged up the Roscrea issue before - oops.

I just did a spin around Roscrea Stn in Street View - trying for an access on the east/south side of the track without a footbridge looks dicey, I don't think the road safety folks would be wild about an access from the road north of/parallel to the platform. The OSI 25" does indicate a footbridge did exist at one point but even if it still did it would mean telling the mobility impaired to get stuffed.

[neoncircles]

There was Kilmastulla shale traffic as well as the passenger up to recently and they didn't spend a bob on the track for years so I guess it stayed off the beancounter radar that way.

EDIT:
Limerick dep 1705
Ballybrophy arr 1904 (terminates)
Ballybrophy dep 1919
Heuston arr 2028

Seems odd that they are allowing 15 minutes in the evening - for the morning 0625 departure only nine minutes is deemed sufficient for the connection. A 1711 departure isn't much but it might at least let some Plassey people make it to Castleconnell. Also I note there is no timetabled speed increase on the branch despite rumours elsewhere that it might be forthcoming.

There's another oddity in the 1705 service - no stop at Roscrea but the journey time between Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy is timetabled for four minutes LONGER. Shome mishtake shurely.

I don't think you'll find any plassey people going to Castleconnell for a train- when there is a very frequent bus from Castletroy to the City Centre which stops 5 minutes from the station.

[Mark Gleeson]

Some strange goings on over the weekend. The NTA were very clear that no application had been made (and since that email is under FOI)

The Authority has not received a request in respect of Irish Rail's schedule on the Nenagh line.

So you can guess what happened next.

Anyone with an annual ticket, bare with us for 48 hours and we will get the formal position confirmed, but a full refund of the remaining months is due

[doherty jack]

HomeFares & TicketsTimetables & Service UpdatesTravel & Station InformationNewsHome >News >News >
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NewsService Updates ArchiveSpecial OffersNews ArchiveNenagh, Limerick and Commuter service improvements, from 5th March 2012
20 February 2012

A new morning direct Intercity rail service from Nenagh and Roscrea amongst others to Dublin will commence on 5th March.

The new service is one of a number of changes which will benefit rail customers from the Nenagh branch line, serving Castleconnell, Birdhill, Nenagh, Roscrea and Cloughjordan. There will also be improvements to Limerick/Dublin services and Kildare commuter services as a result, following approval of changes by the National Transport Authority.

The new service and service changes which take effect from Monday 5th March are:

- New 05.15 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service (Mon-Fri), serving Castleconnell (05.31), Birdhill (05.40), Nenagh (06.04), Cloughjordan (06.21) and Roscrea (06.38) arriving in Dublin Heuston at 08.25.

- The new 05.15 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service will also serve Ballybrophy (07.01), Portlaoise (07.16), Sallins (07.58), Hazelhatch (08.07) and Adamstown (08.12), giving a new morning commuter train for these towns.

- New direct 13.40 Heuston to Limerick service daily (Mon to Sat) serving Portlaoise (14.39), Thurles (15.08) and arriving in Limerick at 15.50.

- Nenagh branch customers will now connect off the 17.05 Heuston to Tralee service in the evenings at Ballybrophy (departs Ballybrophy 18.20), replacing the existing connection off the 17.25 Heuston to Limerick service

- A new additional evening connection will be provided for Nenagh branch customers off the 18.00 Heuston to Cork service at Ballybrophy (departs Ballybrophy at 19.15)

- The existing 16.45 Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh service will be rescheduled to depart at 16.05, arriving at Ballybrophy at 18.00, and connecting with the 18.16 Ballybrophy to Dublin Heuston service.

- The existing 17.45 Limerick to Nenagh commuter service will now be rescheduled to depart at 17.05 from Limerick to Nenagh, and will continue to Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy also.

- The existing 10.05 Ballybrophy to Limerick via Nenagh will now arrive in Limerick at 11.59, and the 12.00 Limerick to Limerick Junction will now depart at 12.02, to allow a connection between these two trains.

The service changes will increase connections between Dublin and Nenagh from two each way currently to four Nenagh to Dublin connections and three Dublin to Nenagh connections daily.

Fares for customers travelling from Nenagh and Roscrea to Dublin are:

Nenagh-Dublin

Adult Single: €25.50

Adult Day Return: €26.00

Adult Open Return: €33.00

Student Single: €17.50

Student Open Return: €25.00

Child fares: 50% of adult fare rounded down to nearest 50c



Roscrea-Dublin

Adult Single: €24.00

Adult Day Return: €24.50

Adult Open Return: €32.00

Student Single: €14.50

Student Open Return: €20.90

Child fares: 50% of adult fare rounded down to nearest 50c



Full details of new schedule from 5th March for Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh:) :)

[Traincustomer]

Looking at the timetable it is puzzling that the 19.15 weekdays journey ex Ballybrophy is allowed thirty two minutes from Ballybrophy to Roscrea.
(departs Roscrea 19.48 so hence arrival is presumed at 19.47hrs.)

Nineteen minutes is the norm for this section for all other Limerick-bound trains.

There's no crossing of another train. Unless some aspect of signalling can account for this it seems strange.

[doherty jack]

they do cross at roscrea 17.05pm limerick - ballybrophy and 18.20pm ballybrophy - limerick at 18.40pm approx

[doherty jack]

I just went back upthread and noted that doherty_jack had flagged up the Roscrea issue before - oops.

I just did a spin around Roscrea Stn in Street View - trying for an access on the east/south side of the track without a footbridge looks dicey, I don't think the road safety folks would be wild about an access from the road north of/parallel to the platform. The OSI 25" does indicate a footbridge did exist at one point but even if it still did it would mean telling the mobility impaired to get stuffed.

a Ramp should be from the Roadbridge that would - except there is a long walk from the booking office to the bridge !so that would work , a footbridge should be put there , there is plenty of footbridges that have been replaced by modern ones around the ireland ! eg .Cahir,athenry,Portarlington

[Traincustomer]

they do cross at roscrea 17.05pm limerick - ballybrophy and 18.20pm ballybrophy - limerick at 18.40pm approx

Hi, I'm aware that the 17.05 Limerick-Ballybrophy and 18.20 Ballybrophy - Limerick will cross at Roscrea but must respectfully point out that my post doesn't refer to these trains in any way.

It's the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick and why it needs a full thirty-two minutes to travel from Ballybrophy to Roscrea that I'm questioning (the other trains take nineteen minutes).

There is no other passenger train at Roscrea at 19.48 apart from the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick.

Unless there is an empty stock movement or signalling reason this extra time seems quite wasteful.

PS: when was the footbridge at Cahir replaced by a new one? I travelled to Cahir by train last month. The old footbridge was there and sealed off from use - in any case the far platform is disused and has no track. I'm really surprised at this development.

[dowlingm]

a Ramp should be from the Roadbridge that would - except there is a long walk from the booking office to the bridge !so that would work , a footbridge should be put there , there is plenty of footbridges that have been replaced by modern ones around the ireland ! eg .Cahir,athenry,PortarlingtonBut you can't just put a footbridge any more if you want to have passengers traverse it - it must be either ramped or have elevators. By the time you built a ramp down from the roadbridge (assuming it would be allowed from the POV of road safety) the length of the remaining platform might not be long enough to park a 22x3. It might be cheaper to install CTC and relocate the loops out of the platform.

Traincustomer - perhaps they are adding some extra time to allow for lateness of the inbound train(s)?

[Inniskeen]

It's the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick and why it needs a full thirty-two minutes to travel from Ballybrophy to Roscrea that I'm questioning (the other trains take nineteen minutes).

There is no other passenger train at Roscrea at 19.48 apart from the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick.

Unless there is an empty stock movement or signalling reason this extra time seems quite wasteful.


Two comments which are relevant to timings and operation at Roscrea.

The extended interval beteeen the arrival at Ballybrophy of the 1705 from Dublin and the departure of the 1820 to Limerick seems unnecessary. I can't see why this train shouldn't be away by 1805 although it would have to wait at Roscrea for the 1705 from Limerick. Mind the additional time at Roscrea could be used to shunt from one platform to the other thus allowing the 1705 from Limerick to serve the station. At least this way Roscrea passengers get home ten minutes earlier and there would be additional evening service to Dublin.

As regards the 1915 from Ballybrophy, this train would also seem to linger unnecessarily in Ballybrophy, although it will have to wait at Roscrea in any event until the preceding service reaches Birdhill. It might in fact be more sensible for this train to connect with the 1900 from Dublin and thus have a clear path through Roscrea, departing Ballybrophy at say 2013 providing both a more balanced and faster service.

As regards the 0515 from Limerick, does this train really have to take 84 minutes to cover the 66 miles from Ballybrophy ?

[Jamie2k9]

As regards the 0515 from Limerick, does this train really have to take 84 minutes to cover the 66 miles from Ballybrophy ?

It the only way to add the service. 08.10, 08.15 and 08.20 arrivals in Heuston then the 08.25 arrival from Limerick.

[dowlingm]

I would think that the good people of Cork, Mallow, Charleville etc. should henceforth be granted 2 minutes more in bed and their 0505 train allowed to forgo calling at Ballybrophy seeing as the new service will be following close behind.

Inniskeen - the 1630 ex Cork arrives Ballybrophy 1816.

[Traincustomer]

That's a worthwhile idea there Inniskeen regarding shuttling between the platforms at Roscrea. Could there be any signalling issues that could preclude this happening in practice?

I couldn't put my finger on it regarding the 19.15 ex Ballybrophy not departing Roscrea till 19.48!

What these improvements to the timetable do highlight is the high number of constraints.

Would imagine that the new services would have to prove themselves before things like a direct curve to the mainline at Ballybrophy could be considered. Such a project doubtless would cost a few hundred thousand euro at least with attendant requirements to change signalling.

Thinking it through further if the above was implemented it would facilitate slightly faster through trains and the branch train running to/from Portlaoise instead (has a south-facing bay that could be made operational again).

That could in turn entail economic thought requiring slight savings by removing the bay trackwork at Ballybrophy though commonsense thinking would say to leave it be to allow maximum operational flexibility.

[doherty jack]

Hi, I'm aware that the 17.05 Limerick-Ballybrophy and 18.20 Ballybrophy - Limerick will cross at Roscrea but must respectfully point out that my post doesn't refer to these trains in any way.

It's the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick and why it needs a full thirty-two minutes to travel from Ballybrophy to Roscrea that I'm questioning (the other trains take nineteen minutes).

There is no other passenger train at Roscrea at 19.48 apart from the 19.15 Ballybrophy-Limerick.

Unless there is an empty stock movement or signalling reason this extra time seems quite wasteful.

PS: when was the footbridge at Cahir replaced by a new one? I travelled to Cahir by train last month. The old footbridge was there and sealed off from use - in any case the far platform is disused and has no track. I'm really surprised at this development.

because the section between birdhill and roscrea wont be cleared ! and it will be waiting in roscrea a while ! im saying that footbridge at CAhir is dised and unneeded!sorry about that

[doherty jack]

18.20 ballybrophy /limerick goes into mainline at roscrea

17.05 Limerick/Ballybrophy goes into Loop line at Roscrea

BUT 18.20pm ONLY RUNS MONDAY-FRIDAY which begs the question is the on Saturday .what will be done?

17.05pm MONDAY -SATURDAY so on saturday will the train stop at Roscrea?

its not marked on the timetable as a saturday only service where it stops at Roscrea as well.......

[doherty jack]

I would think that the good people of Cork, Mallow, Charleville etc. should henceforth be granted 2 minutes more in bed and their 0505 train allowed to forgo calling at Ballybrophy seeing as the new service will be following close behind.
the engineers removed the link a few years ago! it was a danger becuase the cross over from the down line to the up line for access to the NEnagh line ,the crossovers were both facing points! :(

[karlr42]

Would imagine that the new services would have to prove themselves before things like a direct curve to the mainline at Ballybrophy could be considered.

Maybe the existing commuter services should have had to prove themselves before things like these new services were considered.

[Inniskeen]

I would think that the good people of Cork, Mallow, Charleville etc. should henceforth be granted 2 minutes more in bed and their 0505 train allowed to forgo calling at Ballybrophy seeing as the new service will be following close behind.

Inniskeen - the 1630 ex Cork arrives Ballybrophy 1816.

Ok, fair enough, although I doubt the potential transfers off the 1630 from Cork are likely to justify the wait.

[dowlingm]

Ok, fair enough, although I doubt the potential transfers off the 1630 from Cork are likely to justify the wait.I also doubt it, but no doubt the thin gruel of justification sent to NTA couldn't resist adding it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail have confirmed they will refund all remaining months on any annual ticket effected by this change

Contact the Taxsaver office and include a note with the refund request to say you can no longer travel due timetable change

[Destructix]

Kinda off topic slightly but if i have a problem with the practices of Bus Éireann and the NTA who should I go to and express my concerns?

[James Howard]

This withdrawal of a commuter service should be of very serious concern to the general commuting population.

I can't imagine there is much danger of it but what if Irish Rail were to pull a similar stunt and for example, move the start of the two early Longford commuter trains to Mullingar.

People depend on the continued existence of commuter services for their livelihoods and it is a bit worrying when Irish Rail can just pull a service on a couple of months' notice.

[Colm Moore]

People depend on the continued existence of commuter services for their livelihoods and it is a bit worrying when Irish Rail can just pull a service on a couple of months' notice.
Its actually only a few weeks.

[brompton7]

People depend on the continued existence of commuter services for their livelihoods and it is a bit worrying when Irish Rail can just pull a service on a couple of months' notice.

Precisely, it changes everything for some. It was great for me as I could bring my bike and cycle to work. A bike which I had just invested 4 figures in as part of the cycle to work scheme. In addition to shredding my ticket my shiny new bike will now gather dust. Others, have had to change childcare arrangements etc. Make no bones about it. These timetable alterations are more than just a tinkering about, they are a de facto cancellation of the commuter services that the NRP harped on about supporting and a provision of 2 novel services that are practically useless to the Limerick <-> Nenagh commuter market. It's obvious from the 2030 vision document that Irish Rail are only interested in pandering to Dublin oriented traffic ex Nenagh. Nenagh <-> Limerick will now completely die. And they've just done such a nice job of line painting the road entrance to Birdhill station; it's comical.

[Inniskeen]

The new timings from Limerick would not prevent Irish Rail running an 1805 from Limerick to Birdhill. Would this cater for the majority of existing commuters ?

[dowlingm]

three trains on the branch at once? now we're really stretching.

[doherty jack]

The new timings from Limerick would not prevent Irish Rail running an 1805 from Limerick to Birdhill. Would this cater for the majority of existing commuters ?

a POSSIBLE commuter service to run as far as Birdhill in the evening .

limeirck - 18.20 Birdhill-18.55
castleconnel-18.40 castleconnel-19.05
birdhill-18.50 Limerick -19.25

a one car unit excists at in Limercik Shed and often is joined to the back of Galway train(s) but this Railcar could operate this service Monday-Friday -All you need is a driver ,if avaible . . .

Tickets can be checked leaving limerick
&
tickets can be purchased arriving back in limerick for Castleconnel passengers

There is a number using the excisting 17.45 to nenagh plus this service would suit passengers finishing at 6pm .More people use Castleconnle &Birdhill than Nenagh for commuter services also it is easier to a train to bridhill than nenagh (killonan - birdhill ets , birdhill - roscrea ets , roscrea - ballybrophy ets /manual staff)

another thing consided was most employment in limeirick is not in the city centre anymore !its on the urban fringes

[Colm Moore]

a one car unit excists at in Limercik Shed and often is joined to the back of Galway train(s) but this Railcar could operate this service Monday-Friday -All you need is a driver ,if avaible . . .
There are two such single 2700-class cars, However, the suggestion is that the entire 2700-class is to be phased out.

[karlr42]

Precisely, it changes everything for some. It was great for me as I could bring my bike and cycle to work. A bike which I had just invested 4 figures in as part of the cycle to work scheme. In addition to shredding my ticket my shiny new bike will now gather dust. Others, have had to change childcare arrangements etc. Make no bones about it. These timetable alterations are more than just a tinkering about, they are a de facto cancellation of the commuter services that the NRP harped on about supporting and a provision of 2 novel services that are practically useless to the Limerick <-> Nenagh commuter market. It's obvious from the 2030 vision document that Irish Rail are only interested in pandering to Dublin oriented traffic ex Nenagh. Nenagh <-> Limerick will now completely die. And they've just done such a nice job of line painting the road entrance to Birdhill station; it's comical.

Excellent post, you should write to Alan Kelly and make sure he knows what effects his changes are having.

[dowlingm]

another thing consided was most employment in limeirick is not in the city centre anymore !its on the urban fringesNo kidding. I was just google mapping around the Killonan-Lisnagry-Castleconnell area looking at how far the line is from Plassey in that area and came across "Annacotty Business Park", basically a bunch of sheds in a field in the middle of nowhere. Made me want to find a county Planner and punch him in the face.

[Traincustomer]

This article in the Nenagh Guardian newspaper clearly suggests that there will be catering onboard the new (05.15 ex Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh) through train:

http://www.nenaghguardian.ie/news-detail.php?article=QQ5XHQ

specifically the paragraph:

“It will be a direct train, which means commuters can have a cup of tea or coffee, and prepare for their day in Dublin, whether it’s working, studying or even shopping." (my emphasis)

Yet the IÉ PDF timetable does not indicate any catering facility onboard.

Which is correct?!

[Mark Gleeson]

If the timetable says no catering, there is no catering.

[James Howard]

I have a cup of coffee on the train every morning without resorting to the trolley and as a result enjoy a much higher quality beverage.

They mustn't be expecting much traffic because the 0545 from Sligo has a trolley service which does quite well.

[comcor]

I have a cup of coffee on the train every morning without resorting to the trolley and as a result enjoy a much higher quality beverage.

They mustn't be expecting much traffic because the 0545 from Sligo has a trolley service which does quite well.

Indeed.

When I get the train from Cork to Dublin, I make sure to get a coffee at AMT before boarding.

However, I suspect that Nenagh train station doesn't have any coffee outlets.

[James Howard]

Neither does Edgeworthstown - I bring a flask.

Although I do treat myself to a Cafe Maya from AMT in Connolly once a week or so. They are rather delicious.

[brompton7]

Excellent post, you should write to Alan Kelly and make sure he knows what effects his changes are having.

I certainly will be writing to Alan Kelly. And to Virginia O'Dowd of Nenagh Rail Partnership. And to Jim Gallivan, the business development manager in Limerick. I understand that the needs of the many out value the needs of the few. And that public funds should not be squandered. The odds are certainly stacked against the viability of the Nenagh branch. It has a competing bus service and a brand spanking new motorway running along side it. Of course it is difficult to sell the service. Try telling somebody who finished work at 1600 and can be home in 30 mins by car from their place of work that they must now wait 65 minutes for their service to run and then sit on a slow service and THEN get into their car at their local station and drive to their house. Any railway, in any way, is a social asset. It may never make money and may always need lifesupport. However, if it being run with public funds it should be run competently and EVERY effort made to make as useful as possible. We pay for the service. We pay for the people who run it. We pay the salaries of the Alan Kellys, the Virginia O'Dowds and the Jim Gallivans. It is OURS. The railway either needs to be closed to save money - or it needs to be run properly. Anything in between is an insult; and I am completely incensed when I look at the amount of tax I pay and the return I get is incompetence.

[Traincustomer]

Personally I think that the timetable should have been issued as a proposal first (like last year's timetable consultation processes for the ex Connolly and Heuston routes) so that frustrating situations like what you identify would have been avoided.

I thought the NTA favoured a consultative approach but this new timetable appears as an old-style "this is what we're giving you, like it or lump it" timetable and that approach is no longer satisfactory or best practice.

[dowlingm]

Personally I think that the timetable should have been issued as a proposal first (like last year's timetable consultation processes for the ex Connolly and Heuston routes) so that frustrating situations like what you identify would have been avoided.+1. At least even the stuff like could the 1705 serve Roscrea on an SO basis could have been worked into the final document even if major changes couldn't be made.

[Mark Gleeson]

If there had been a consultation you can bet there would have been a very different outcome.

They have 6 months to use it or lose it and odds are it will be a lose it.

[2200DMU]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/extra-trains-costing-20000-per-day-put-on-ministers-lossmaking-route-3032178.html

[Traincustomer]

If there had been a consultation you can bet there would have been a very different outcome.
They have 6 months to use it or lose it and odds are it will be a lose it.

Does the "use it or lose it" pertain solely to the 05.15 or to all services on the line?

Personally I feel the "use it or lose it" concept should be made quite explicit by IE and the local group/s. It can't do any harm and indeed is fair in many respects on all sides. In that I mean putting the fact in clear language, words like "trial", "your support" etc... on posters at every station.

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

A clear step by step process which is transparent is needed in these sort of things.

To ensure fairness from all sides though the Limerick commuter situation should be addressed and finer details as per dowlingm's post addressed.

[Destructix]

Kelly Defends Extra Rail Services


Published on Monday 27 February 2012 14:30

THE Junior Minister for Public Transport, Alan Kelly, has defended the implementation of a new early morning service and other changes on the Limerick to Ballybrophy line, which serves Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan and Roscrea. And he rejected claims that the cost of the extra services would amount to E20,000 per day.

He insisted that Iarnrod Eireann was only implementing what its own Goodbody commissioned report had found and that was that the only way to save the line was though enhancing services on it.

“On top of that, the new early morning service will stop at stations on the way into Dublin, giving commuters extra options,” he said. “This is something Iarnrod Eireann wanted.”

Full report in this week’s Tipperary Star

€20,000 per day what the flip. That is roughly €3 million this line could cost the state within six months if the number of users isn't high.

[Inniskeen]

€20,000 per day what the flip. That is roughly €3 million this line could cost the state within six months if the number of users isn't high.

How is this €20,000 made up ?

If this is the marginal cost of a return service from Limerick to Dublin (0515 out via Nenagh, 1340 back via Limerick Junction) and an extension of a second train from Nenagh to Ballybrophy and back to Nenagh then the railway company has a massive problem with its operational costs.

In addition to the costs directly associated with the extra trains the branch is open for approximnately an extra one and a half hours, five days per week - at most equivalent to the cost of two additional staff per day.

The numbers simply don't add up and have clearly been fed to a ignorant and gullible media.

[finnyus]

Had planned to sample the 0515 Limerick - Heuston on 05. March, however using irishrail.ie that service does not appear, unless I am traveling from any other station except Limerick. So, currently on irishrail.ie, you cannot book 0515 Limerick - Heuston from the following stations:
- Limerick (Colbert)
- Castleconnell
- Birdhill
- Cloughjordan
- Roscrea

The stations on the Nenagh line (except Limerick & Ballybrophy) have no ticket vending machines, so I can understand why it is not currently possible to book tickets online for those stations. Nenagh, I assume will get the purchased online tickets from Thurles, similar to what happened when the GAA spl operated over the line back in September.

[Colm Moore]

Seems to be OK now.

[finnyus]

Seems to be OK now.

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

[comcor]

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

[comcor]

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

That's a quirk of the booking system.

The 5:30 arrives before the 5:15, so the 5:15 doesn't show up.

You get some weird results sometimes, like suggesting you go from Waterford to Dublin via Limerick Junction because the 11:40 train via Limerick Junction leaves after the 11:00 and arrives about quarter of an hour before the 13:00.


Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

[finnyus]

That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...

[Colm Moore]

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

Ah, I had looked at a Limerick-Ballybrophy trip, where there isn't much of a time difference.
That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...
Its a feature, not a bug. You request a train that will get you to Heuston and the 0530 will get you there first, the 0515 is essentially useless to you.

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.In the case of Waterford-Dublin, if someone would have better use of their time in Dublin, then that routing is valid. Some Cork-Galway trips are via Portarlington, some via Limerick.

[Jamie2k9]

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

i understand the figure is actually around €2,000 per day, I guess an extra 0 got lost in the matrix somewhere.

As someone who lives between Templemore and Roscrea and who works in Roscrea, it will be interesting to see that the actual patronage, as opposed to the usual vocal support, wil be for this. I was involved in a survey for the Templemore Train Users Group several years ago and we know that about half a dozen to a dozen people were using the early morning services from Temeplmore who lived in what would be the catchment for this early service. Undoubtedly there would be others who use Thurles.

They should be expected to get this train (although its arrival time is only relevent to those who work in that part of the city centre nearest Heuston) but will probably get the early Cork/Limerick trains out of Templemore as they still get in earlier.

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I also wonder where they are getting this train from, and is it really only a long long pullback of a planned commuter service planned from Portlaosie inwards? The amount of commuter stops on the way in suggests it is.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

......

that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

Wear and tear of an ICR will be higher on the track, the newer part will be ok, the older part will probably be replaced with track cut from the Cork Mainline development which is ongoing.

IE have, understandably, a bullwark against the proposals of the McCarthy reports, and we have seen that in the case of Rosslare-Waterford and next in line for a fallback position was Ballybrophy branch with the idea of rail busses being floated on the Clonmel branch too. This initiative by Alan Kelly (and make no bones about it this is his idea not IE's) has rather scuppered that for the time being. What you may think of this initiative on his part is down to you. I couldnt possibly comment.

[comcor]

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

[dowlingm]

Ballybrophy will be a quite decent place to commute from now that there are three departures in the system which will land you in Heuston between 8.10 and 8.40.

Surely the set will have to be based in Limerick rather than deadheaded from Portlaoise to arrive before 0515? That sounds too bizarre even for Irish Rail to consider.

If the 1915 dep ex Ballybrophy was held 5 or so minutes, a person could commute from Limerick to Roscrea in 1hr 40ish (dep Limerick 1800 Limerick Junction 1827 Ballybrophy 1920) with 2 changes which would compare time-wise quite well to the 1hr32 the 1605 branch service takes.

While I doubt that many people not rail enthusiasts can be bothered taking three trains to get to Roscrea I would have thought a trickle of trade from the 1730 Cork departure (arr 1919) would be worth holding for considering that the bloody train will sit in Roscrea for 12 minutes anyway.

[Kilocharlie]

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

[doherty jack]

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

[doherty jack]

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

yes , but people wont join overnight and not enough will use it in the 1st 6months ! which is unfortunate!:(

[doherty jack]

Had planned to sample the 0515 Limerick - Heuston on 05. March, however using irishrail.ie that service does not appear, unless I am traveling from any other station except Limerick. So, currently on irishrail.ie, you cannot book 0515 Limerick - Heuston from the following stations:
- Limerick (Colbert)
- Castleconnell
- Birdhill
- Cloughjordan
- Roscrea

The stations on the Nenagh line (except Limerick & Ballybrophy) have no ticket vending machines, so I can understand why it is not currently possible to book tickets online for those stations. Nenagh, I assume will get the purchased online tickets from Thurles, similar to what happened when the GAA spl operated over the line back in September.

the stations had computers up to a few years ago but staff wernt trained to use them so sent back to thurles!

Does the "use it or lose it" pertain solely to the 05.15 or to all services on the line?

Personally I feel the "use it or lose it" concept should be made quite explicit by IE and the local group/s. It can't do any harm and indeed is fair in many respects on all sides. In that I mean putting the fact in clear language, words like "trial", "your support" etc... on posters at every station.

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

A clear step by step process which is transparent is needed in these sort of things.

To ensure fairness from all sides though the Limerick commuter situation should be addressed and finer details as per dowlingm's post addressed.

as part of the Nenagh rail partnership , we are putting up posters the disused shopfronts in towns & villages along the line to promote it , also a poster has been cabled tied to the gates at Roscrea & Nenagh stations reading (roscrea) Roscrea -dublin , adult day return ,E24.50......(Nenagh) Nenagh - Dublin ,adult dat return ,E26.00:) :)

[Jamie2k9]

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

good suggestion but cost increase with a second driver required.

yes , but people wont join overnight and not enough will use it in the 1st 6months ! which is unfortunate!

Don't agree with that, if people in the region wanted a direct train to Dublin so much then they will use it once it starts operating. Why ask for one and not use it once it starts?

[seamus kilcock]

I'm a pro train person - I was brought up on the railways, my father was a station master.
But, the chances of the new services between Limerick, Roscrea, B'brophy, Dublin have no chance of survival. The economics do not add up.
Between the Bus Eireann services and upgraded Motorway roads the railway service stands no chance of success and by extension survival.
The cost of reinstating the WRC was one of the greatest waste of valuable resources for a long time. Let's not repeat it on the Limerick to B'brophy line.
The truth sometimes does hurt!

[Kilocharlie]

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

I meant splitting one of the 2x3 trains that arrive in Limerick in the evening with one half to form the 0515 and the other the normal service. I was not suggesting doing this in reverse.

[Alan French]

I wouldn’t be too negative about the new timetable. To start with the down side, clearly the biggest loss is the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh. The earlier time of 17.05 is too early for most commuters.

They will argue that the train never attracted many commuters anyway, so there’s not much loss. I’m hearing two conflicting reports here: one is this train is an essential alternative to the congested streets of Limerick. The other is that the roads are so good and the train is so slow that no one uses it. Can someone enlighten me?

In any case, I don’t think they should give up so easily on attracting commuters. The new timetable needs one additional train (a class 22, by the sound of it) which finishes its roster at 15.50. This should be available to operate the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh (or at least to Birdhill). See also Jack Doherty’s suggestion in #127.

The new timetable follows the precedent of the other lines radiating from Dublin, which all have a train arriving in Dublin before 09.00, and another one arriving a little later. There is also a choice of evening trains from Dublin. (Notice that this is the pattern for the Dublin-Rosslare line, which is sparsely served at other times.) The Nenagh line stood out as a glaring omission, so it’s good to see the gap being filled. I reckon that the aim is to offer choice of times: people were driving from Roscrea or Nenagh to a station on the main line because that gave them flexibility, which the Nenagh line doesn’t. The through train to Dublin is basically a good idea, if the path works; in recent years IR have tended to forget that a change of trains can be a deterrent, and it’s worth running through trains where possible.

The 13.40 Dublin-Limerick won’t benefit the Nenagh line directly, but do you notice that it’s restoring a useful service that was withdrawn until 2009 (previously at 13.25)?

About the absence of access to the far platform at Roscrea: Perhaps, once the service starts, the sight of a train stopping but unable to handle passengers will put the pressure on to do something – either to build a bridge or a back entrance, or to change the rules. Pressure may overcome the “can’t be done” attitude. I reckon that the simplest solution is a gate and ramp from the far side. What about the idea of a pedestrian crossing with barriers and lights? These are found in Holland, and I wonder if Irish rules specifically forbid them.

I know that this sudden political interference is unsettling, but it’s probably better than the old attitude of “I’ve no intention of intervening in IR’s decision-making”. The problem is not so much that one politician is pushing a local project, but that others, in other places, are not pushing theirs. If pressure were to come from several places at once, the whole scene would change. IR would no longer be able to dig their heels in when the need for an improved timetable is glaringly obvious. It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to rural national schools; if one place is looking to keep its school, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their schools, it needs a change in the decision-making process.

[Lyle Langley]

It's a pity for rail enthusiasts that the new services such as this and the WRC would - even to us - not make sense. I await further negative stories in the paper in five months' time or so.

[Traincustomer]

@ Jack. Thanks for the update.

[Colm Moore]

I know that this sudden political interference is unsettling, but it’s probably better than the old attitude of “I’ve no intention of intervening in IR’s decision-making”. The problem is not so much that one politician is pushing a local project, but that others, in other places, are not pushing theirs. If pressure were to come from several places at once, the whole scene would change. IR would no longer be able to dig their heels in when the need for an improved timetable is glaringly obvious. It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to rural national schools; if one place is looking to keep its school, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their schools, it needs a change in the decision-making process.To be honest, there is little difference in this type of interference and "we'll demand it, but not use it" and the 'buy the election' mentalities that spend €100m on the WRC or any number of other wacky projects.

Ministers and government should set high level policy structures, not demand specific services. The mid-level should be down to the NTA and the day to day running down to the operators.

Without wanting to get into discussing schools, let us discuss train stations instead. If I change your text.

It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to train stations ; if one place is looking to keep its train station, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their train stations, it needs a change in the decision-making process.I wouldn't absolutely agree. The provision of stations should be down to what socio-economic benefit they deliver and some thresholds should exist. Some stations are very poorly used, while other places could do with a station (or indeed a second station). Potentially some standard needs to be set such that the most people are served with what resources are available and while nobody should be screwed over, there are some services (not restricting that to trains) that are living on borrowed time. The people of East Wall / North Strand / Ballybough suffer all of the inconvenience of the railway, but have little of the convenience. Oranmore, Blackpool, Ballyfermot or Phibsborough-Glasnevin should have had stations long before Crusheen or Ardrahan. Should Crusheen or Woodlawn keep their unused stations, but Nenagh or Clonmel (assuming meaningful services can be put in place within the current cost constraints) lose theirs?

[Destructix]

Clonmel has potential though. Just the services are poor and no Sunday service. Even with this patronage is still much better than Nenagh.

[brompton7]

as part of the Nenagh rail partnership , we are putting up posters the disused shopfronts in towns & villages along the line to promote it , also a poster has been cabled tied to the gates at Roscrea & Nenagh stations reading (roscrea) Roscrea -dublin , adult day return ,E24.50......(Nenagh) Nenagh - Dublin ,adult dat return ,E26.00:) :)

Some individuals I have spoken to recently that drive my route from Killaloe/Ballina / East Clare were not aware that a functional railway station even exists at Birdhill, never mind that a commuter service runs on it.

Considering Killaloe/Ballina is a tourist hub / confluence can the NRP drop some posters around there? Some business are considering pooling resources to provide a Killaloe/Ballina shuttle service to bring visitors to the heritage towns/ lake villages and marinas from rail services at Birdhill. Idea was put on ice over publicity about line closure so investment in bus was deferred. Just another thought....

[Inniskeen]

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

If that is the case what is the 1340 to Limerick all about. Given that this exercise is supposed to be about improving services via Nenagh one would have to question why the set for the 1340 doesn't work a service from Heuston ahead of the 1300 and then shunt to the branch to form a connection off the 1300.

[dowlingm]

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

[Charlie Hungerford]

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

The 'Use it or lose it' principle is also being employed by NIR on the Whitehead-Larne Harbour section of its Larne line. Basically, the locals have been given a year or so to demonstrate that there's a demand for the current service, which is poorly-utilised after Whitehead, otherwise the frequency on that section of the line will be cut to one train every two hours to allow for enhanced services on the remainder of the line.

[neoncircles]

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

I would think the 1340 would operate as 2x3 car 22k...3 car to operate 0515 and 3 car to operate 0900

[Inniskeen]

Neocircles, you have probably explained why the 1340 doen't operate via the Nenagh - in the absence of SDO a six car set can not stop at branch stations.

Incidentally how does the 0900 from Limerick get back to Limerick at the moment ?

[brompton7]

In simple terms:

Departures at 45 mins past the hour = many potential customers will not wait for a departure (they are potentially at home 15 mins before it leaves) therefore service doesn't thrive.

Departures 05 min past the hour = untenable for most current users therefore service loses any current business.

Departure 20 mins past the hour = most current users can still use service and extra Nenagh throughput maintained.

Can somebody wiser than I explain to me WHY there is no win/win situation here. Humans have transplanted hearts and put men on the moon; why can't we run a train up a track at a convenient time? (And cross them over someplace, conveniently).

[dowlingm]

18.20 ballybrophy /limerick goes into mainline at roscrea

17.05 Limerick/Ballybrophy goes into Loop line at Roscrea

BUT 18.20pm ONLY RUNS MONDAY-FRIDAY which begs the question is the on Saturday .what will be done?

17.05pm MONDAY -SATURDAY so on saturday will the train stop at Roscrea?

its not marked on the timetable as a saturday only service where it stops at Roscrea as well.......It is now.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/DublinLimerickviaNenagh121.pdf
But not if you use the link in the announcement
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/Dublin_Limerick_via_Nenagh_from_5th_March2.pdf

Also - the other printable timetables have been updated with PDFs effective 05.03.2012

[Inniskeen]

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

[Kilocharlie]

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

According to the journey planner, the 0900 to Dublin is already running even though the timetable has this only from 25th June. It is probably provided by splitting one of the 3 evening trains.

That implies that he 1340 is required to provide a unit for the new service. Wonder what evening train will loose 3 carriages? 1805 to Portlaosie??

[Jamie2k9]

The 09.00 from Limerick was due to be summer only but it was extended to year round last summer. 2 out of the 3 early morning services are full 6 car (1 class) sets and the 05.30 is 2 by 3 car but I think its not split as it serves a lot of major stations along the way and a 3 car would not be enough.

[Carrage A]

Cork, Limerick, Tralee, and a few more have new PDF timetables valid from 5 March.

[doherty jack]

@dowlingm .thanks for the update! its good they have it marked in now:)

[neoncircles]

Neocircles, you have probably explained why the 1340 doen't operate via the Nenagh - in the absence of SDO a six car set can not stop at branch stations.

Incidentally how does the 0900 from Limerick get back to Limerick at the moment ?

I think the 1525 operates as 2x3 cars at the moment, so thats where the 0900 comes from.

[dowlingm]

Can somebody wiser than I explain to me WHY there is no win/win situation here. Humans have transplanted hearts and put men on the moon; why can't we run a train up a track at a convenient time? (And cross them over someplace, conveniently).If the speed of the train could be accelerated 15 minutes then perhaps it could but the reality is that this timetable is now slaved to the Dublin line just like the Waterford-Limerick Junction service is and all other considerations have become secondary.

[doherty jack]

If the speed of the train could be accelerated 15 minutes then perhaps it could but the reality is that this timetable is now slaved to the Dublin line just like the Waterford-Limerick Junction service is and all other considerations have become secondary.

they have taken 4 minutes off jorney and an addional 10mins will be taking off times , and the normal unit which operates cant operate at a high spped due to the fact that they are light and if the hit a bump they will de-rail unlike the 22000 units which covers the line in a shorter time!

[ACustomer]

doherty jack: So the heavier the axle-load the faster you can travel in safety. Contracdicts everything every permanent way engineer in history seems to think.

[brompton7]

they have taken 4 minutes off jorney and an addional 10mins will be taking off times , and the normal unit which operates cant operate at a high spped due to the fact that they are light and if the hit a bump they will de-rail unlike the 22000 units which covers the line in a shorter time!

Put a spoiler on it....(and maybe if it's faster extra passengers may use it and help weigh it down)

[brompton7]

they have taken 4 minutes off jorney and an addional 10mins will be taking off times , and the normal unit which operates cant operate at a high spped due to the fact that they are light and if the hit a bump they will de-rail unlike the 22000 units which covers the line in a shorter time!

On a more serious note: So am I reading that considering a 10min travel time reduction, and an inordinate 15 min connection delay in B'Brophy, that a more sensible departure (e.g. 1620/1720) ex Colbert may be possible? Would this allow convenient times on the loop? And I don't really care if the set has go faster stripes and an Irish rail Stig at the controls, we just need it to work.

[brompton7]

If the speed of the train could be accelerated 15 minutes then perhaps it could but the reality is that this timetable is now slaved to the Dublin line just like the Waterford-Limerick Junction service is and all other considerations have become secondary.

Upon inspection I would expect this to be an increase of 4 to 5 mph on the current average speed. I will record it with a GPS next week and see if its possible.

[dowlingm]

My understanding is that track condition north of Nenagh is poor since it didn't get the same works as done south of Nenagh. Find the money to do that... but then the numbers on the line costs go nuts - like when they CWR'ed the South Wexford.

[doherty jack]

My understanding is that track condition north of Nenagh is poor since it didn't get the same works as done south of Nenagh. Find the money to do that... but then the numbers on the line costs go nuts - like when they CWR'ed the South Wexford.


mile by there are gradually relaying the line bally/nenagh section , 3 miles already down ! and another just south of nenagh is being currently relayed.....progress is unstoppable!!

[Destructix]

Minister of State Alan Kelly has described claims that new Nenagh-Dublin train services could cost €20,000 per day as “completely inaccurate”.
An article in last Monday’s Irish Independent claimed that Iarnród Éireann’s new spring/summer timetable on the Nenagh line, which is due to commence next Monday, would cost the company almost €20,000 per day to run.
The article pointed out that the loss-making route serves Minister Kelly’s home constituency. It said the Minister of State at the Dept of Transport was “sharply criticised” last year for “encouraging” Iarnród Éireann to provide an extra train to bring Tipp fans to the All-Ireland Final.
Only 73 people per day use the Limerick-Ballybrophy line, which serves Nenagh, and less than 50 of these use if for commuting. Two major reports have recommended that the route be closed due to its lack of use, and the fact that it is quicker to drive from Nenagh to Dublin, or Ballybrophy.
The Irish Independent article said the decision to provide extra trains contravenes these recommendations on the line and would cost Iarnród Éireann “hundreds of thousands of euro”.
Minister Kelly described these figures as “ridiculous”.
He said the actual daily cost of providing the extra trains would be “less than five per cent” of the amount claimed, and would relate mainly to extra fuel and maintenance costs, most of which he expected would be recouped by the volume of passengers using the services. The trains and staff are already in place and would not therefore prove a cost issue.
Minister Kelly agreed that the extra services would benefit people in his home constituency, but said the article neglected to point out that commuters in Limerick, Offaly, Laois and Kildare would also benefit.
Moreover, he said the article “did not acknowledge that the Nenagh Rail Partnership has been looking for this for many years. This shows a track record of agitation towards what people really believed was necessary, and I am delighted it has now been delivered.”
Minister Kelly added that he would “be in touch with the Independent to clarify this matter”.
Chairperson of Nenagh Rail Partnership and Nenagh Town Mayor Virginia O’Dowd said the article was “exceptionally wide of the mark and greatly misleads its readers”.
“The additional cost is less than five per cent of what is stated,” Mayor O’Dowd said. “There was no way Iarnród Éireann could spend the kind of money referred to.”
The mayor also defended her Labour party colleague’s role in securing the All-Ireland train for Tipp fans, saying the train was 98 per cent full and made a profit.
“People out there are jealous”, she concluded.
Mayor O’Dowd made her comments at last Monday night’s meeting of Nenagh Town Council, at which several councillors also defended Minister Kelly and welcomed the enhanced train services on the Nenagh line.
Cllr Hughie McGrath (Ind) said there would have to be some expenditure in order to make the new services work. The new timetable is only a trial, and he hoped it would prove successful.
Cllr Lalor McGee (Lab) said the route would benefit commuters and offer new travel options to students. The range of tickets is also reasonably priced, he added.
Cllr Conor Delaney (FG) wanted to know how long the trial period would last. He said people should be made aware that the line could still be closed if the new timetable is not availed of.
“If it doesn’t work, people have no one to blame but themselves”, he said.
Cllr Seamus Morris (SF) concurred, saying “people will be sorry” if the line is ever closed. He agreed with Mayor O’Dowd that Iarnród Éireann should consider using the line for freight again in future.

Jealous? Oh please don't make us laugh why would we be jealous of a crappy train line. The Bord Na Mona line in Littleton is in better nick. What people are sick of is politicians been heroes saving lines which should have been closed years ago. The profitable lines will only end up subsidizing services on these especially when subsidies from the state will be reduced more in the coming years. Clonmel a town of over 16,000 people and four times the patronage on the trains is in the exact same situation Nenagh was and deserves a improved train service even more. Fares have gone up in some cases over 100% since February. When will this political gombeenism in this country going to stop. Iarnród Éireann should be allowed to closed lines which are costing the state money to keep them open. A regular Limerick to Waterford Intercity service would have worked out cheaper than this without spending a single penny.

Maybe more people will use the service starting Monday but in another year or two this issue will only arise again.

[dowlingm]

Tippites should hope that the relaid line north of Nenagh doesn't have to wait an inordinate time to be stressed like the southern bit, or IE don't suddenly slap TSRs on bridges on the section just when the rails have been cleared for higher speeds...

[doherty jack]

the north tipperary line has been deprived for decades of a decent timetable ,closure of goods in 2002 (roscrea & nenagh)track conditions gradually deteriorate over many years being left with long sections of 25mph and 30mph running and stations being left with paint flaking off the buildings ,uncorfortable conditions and the need to change at ballybrophy the whole , being left with long connection peroids ,and finally the people of the towns and villages and their surrounding areas in north tipperary have been given decent service across their line , and the choice is theres "USE IT OR LOSE IT" locals are delighted with their new service ,hopefully this will reflect in patronage , in the coming months ....

[Colm Moore]

the north tipperary line has been deprived for decades of a decent timetable ,closure of goods in 2002 (roscrea & nenagh)track conditions gradually deteriorate over many years being left with long sections of 25mph and 30mph running and stations being left with paint flaking off the buildings ,uncorfortable conditions and the need to change at ballybrophy the whole , being left with long connection peroids Many people had such conditions.

closure of goods This is something that the railway has little control over.

[doherty jack]

This is something that the railway has little control over.

well they didnt encourage it ,instead of trees growing on the cement line in limerick ,trains should be on it!!

[dowlingm]

IE gets no money for rail freight. They have no mandate to use passenger subsidy or fares to haul freight. That's the reality.

[Mark Gleeson]

IE gets no money for rail freight. They have no mandate to use passenger subsidy or fares to haul freight. That's the reality.

Its illegal under EU law to do so anyway

[Destructix]

This is North Tipperary though Mark anything is possible. Casinos in fields, Cycle tracks. Unprofitable train services. Yet they can't roll out bus services in Thurles or Templemore or have a much needed rail connection to the towns of Tipperary, Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick .