View Full Version : Metro North Route
Mark Gleeson
19-10-2006, 10:50
As promised and you saw it here first
# St Stephen's Green
Station will be partly under the park, at Stephens Green west, but entrances will be adjacent to the current Luas stop. No decision has been made in relation to where the TBM will come out. They are also examining other tunneling techniques. Line runs under Grafton street, College Green and Westmoreland street.
# O'Connell Bridge
Station to be located under the Liffey. Entrances will be provided both north and south. Possibly on the quays. 4 at least. One at the junction of Abbey street providing integration with the Luas red line. Line runs up O'Connell Street, Parnell Sq East, across Dorset Street and Eccles St.
# Mater
Station located under existing hospital car park.(soon to become the new childrens hospital. Entrances on Eccles street and North Circular Road. The NCR entrance opens up Metro to the proposed Mountjoy development and Phisboro area. Line curves back towards the end of Dorset St and onto Drumcondra Road.
# Drumcondra
Station will be under the road, but "mined". RPA want to make the entrances as close as possible to IE station. They are looking at putting at least one within the station environs. Thought has been given to how to deal with Croke Park crowds
Line travels onwards in a north westerly direction and crosses Griffith Avenue.
# Griffith Avenue
Station to be located underground but "shallow" on lands owned by DCU and planned as the second campus. Public entrances provided and station built in such a way that DCU can build campus over it. Continuing north west line runs into a shallow cutting.
# DCU
Station in shallow cutting, so may be unmanned. Line continues in shallow cutting, under Collins Avenue and then at grade along the central median of current road through Ballymun.
# Ballymun
RPA are currently working with Ballymun redevelopment on station location and exact route through the centre of Ballymun. Line will run along the east side of existing link road to M50.
# Santry Demesne
Station to serve development here. However development is also taking place on the opposite side of the link road and the RPA envisage a new pedestrian bridge to link metro station with it.
Line crosses over M50, curves to the right.
# Metro Park (Name may be changed)
Park and Ride site. No depot planned here. It may not be the junction point with Metro West either, due to other developer lobbies, who want a different alignment for Metro West. Public consultation for Metro West is due to begin in October. Line goes underground again before airport perimeter.
# Airport
Underground and station positioned equal distance from T1 and T2 a box has been reserved for construction. Line then surfaces due to the natural land contours at the north of the airport
# Airside/Nevinstown (Name may be changed)
Line then crosses under the old M1 by cut and cover
# Swords
Located at Pinnochill roundabout Route continues along side Swords Bypass on the east side of the old N1
# Seatown
# Lissenhall
Lissenhall terminus is now closer to Swords to allow more flexibility for later extensions and road access
Extremely large park and ride site with up to 2000 spaces
More http://www.platform11.org/transport21/metro/metro_north_route.php
Platform 11 acknowledges the assistance and information provided by the RPA to provide this list
Mark Hennessy
19-10-2006, 11:01
A nice validation of your sensible and excellent Metro report Mark.
Well done to yourself and Derek and the others who worked hard behind the scenes to hammer home the message of integration at Drumcondra and a service to Swords.
Mark Gleeson
19-10-2006, 11:08
http://www.platform11.org/news/news.php?year=2006&no=24.html
http://www.platform11.org/transport21/metro/common_sense_wins.php
Does equal distance from T1 & T2 mean Great Southern Hotel?
Even so it is a pretty good route.
Mark Gleeson
19-10-2006, 11:19
The route passes under the airport goes nowhere near the hotel
Confusion reigns:
breakingnews.ieDublin metro system to run via Ballymun and Phibsboro
19/10/2006 - 12:09:59
Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has announced the route chosen for the proposed metro line linking Dublin Airport with the city centre.
Three alternatives had been put forward as part of a public consultation process.
The chosen one will see the metro system run from Swords through Dublin Airport, via Ballymun and Phibsboro and on to St Stephen's Green.
Mr Cullen says the route will service 20,000 people every hour, with trains running every 90 seconds.
The total journey time will be 17 minutes.
The metro is expected to take around 40,000 cars off the streets of the city centre every day when it is operational in 2012.
Cullen announces Metro details
19 October 2006 11:46
Transport Minister Martin Cullen has announced details of the new Dublin Metro North service, which will see 15 new stops developed across north Co Dublin.
The project, which forms part of the Government's Transport 21 programme, is expected to be used by more than 34 million people every year.
Trains will operate every four minutes on the route and a journey time from Dublin city centre to the airport will be around 17 minutes.
www.rte.ie
Mark Hennessy
19-10-2006, 11:29
www.transport.ie/upload/general/8316-0.pdf
This is a map of the route from the DOT themselves.
# Airport
Underground and station positioned equal distance from T1 and T2 a box has been reserved for construction. Line then surfaces due to the natural land contours at the north of the airport
I'm almost afraid to ask, but this does take into account the proposed second runway at Dublin Airport?
clonsilladart
19-10-2006, 12:32
# Drumcondra
Station will be under the road, but "mined". RPA want to make the entrances as close as possible to IE station. They are looking at putting at least one within the station environs.
Thanks Mark for the Info and all the Great work.....
I guess i am a sceptic.... I worry when i hear government (appointed) organisations saying things like "as close as possible". I think they mean "as close a possible without spending too much money".
I can't wait to see detailed station plans.....
However, Really good news in the main......
Mark Gleeson
19-10-2006, 12:36
There is serious talk going on to make it work the plan is to allow you to walk from train to metro without hitting a barrier or going out onto the street.
Exact station location comes next
does the midland line factor in in the drumcondra solution
Mark Gleeson
19-10-2006, 14:15
Issue was discussed with RPA
IE have no plans to use Midland line post 2015 thus its a non starter, however its not beyond the realms of possibilty to link the metro station into a station on the Midland line, the clearances are very very tight on the Midland line for a platform
Is the midland line a temp measure I thought it was to become a permenant feature
`Naw, they've gotta dump the station and build an underground one for the Interconnector.,
Well Done Derek!
www.rte.ie
ullen announces details of Metro route
19 October 2006 17:07
Transport Minister Martin Cullen has announced details of the new Dublin Metro North service, which will see 15 new stops developed across north Co Dublin.
The project, which forms part of the Government's Transport 21 programme, is expected to be used by more than 34 million people every year.
Trains will operate every four minutes on the route and the journey time from Dublin city centre to the airport will be around 17 minutes.
Advertisement
Minister Cullen has stated that the route is more than just a link to the airport and will be used by millions of commuters.
A topic of debate for many years, the Metro has been a piece of infrastructure which has been announced and then re-announced while congestion in the capital has got steadily worse.
The rail users' lobby group, Platform 11, has urged the public to support the Metro North service.
Platform 11 spokesperson Derek Wheeler has welcomed the route, saying it was much better than others that were previously proposed.
He said it was important that two key areas - integration with the Maynooth line and the extension of the route to Swords - had been addressed.
The organisation says there is an onus on commuters to be positive about the prospects of the line being in service by 2012, despite failures to meet other public transport deadlines in the past.
Mr Wheeler now wants commitments on the proposed Metro West line.
Opposition gives guarded welcome
Opposition parties have given a guarded welcome to the announcement.
The Fine Gael Transport Spokesperson, Olivia Mitchell, said progress towards a high-speed, high-capacity rail spine for Dublin was welcome. But, she said, the absence of even a ballpark costing left a massive credibility gap.
RóisÃ*n Shortall, Labour's Transport Spokesperson, expressed concern that the route should go over-ground from DCU, adding that it would cause severe traffic disruption and major inconvenience for communities in the area.
She also warned that the lessons of previous construction projects would have to be learned if the 2012 completion date was to be met.
Meanwhile, Progressive Democrat Transport Spokesperson Senator Tom Morrissey has called for 24-hour tunnelling during construction of the Metro line.
Senator Morrissey said it would reduce costs and ensure the work is completed on time and within budget. He also said that the issue of compensation for householders must be clarified.
James Shields
19-10-2006, 20:24
This is excellent news, well done to everyone involved. I see we've gone from "no mined stations" to at least two.
I found this on our intranet at work:
Chambers welcome new metro route
The Chambers Ireland Transport Users Council today welcomed
Minister Cullen's choice of route for Metro north, in particular
the interconnector with the Maynooth line but has urged the
Government to proceed with its construction with minimum delay
Chair of the council Dan Loughrey said, "Chambers Ireland's
Transport Users Survey showed that workers in Dublin lose 9 hours
a month due to traffic congestion last year.
"In this context," he said, "it seems foolhardy to wait until 2009
to commence work on this line. The Spanish Government built a
metro in three years, we should be able to do the same and not
wait until 2012 for it to be completed.
"This again raises the urgent need for the full establishment of
the Dublin Transport Authority. Having committed to establishing
the body within two months of announcing Transport 21, the
Minister now says it will be established in March 2007 - sixteen
months late. Even at that, consultations with the affected
agencies have not yet taken place so the Minister is writing
legislative solutions without assessing the problems," Mr.
Loughrey said.
This external information has been sourced from Business World,
a service of Media World Ltd.
Nigel Fitzgricer
19-10-2006, 20:59
I am in the US at the moment working and I checked the UTV news site on the off chance and lo and behold Dublin is to get a brilliant metro north with an ace, integrated route route.
However, I think UTV has posted a world exclusive preview of the rolling stock to be used. Do you think it'll be carrying beet as well as commuters?
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=77410&pt=n
Derek Wheeler
19-10-2006, 22:51
I'm almost afraid to ask, but this does take into account the proposed second runway at Dublin Airport?
Yep.
Metro surfaces outside the Airport perimetre north of the road that runs parallel to Forest Little golf club.
Yep.
Metro surfaces outside the Airport perimetre north of the road that runs parallel to Forest Little golf club.
and runs just east of the actual runway so as far as I know it does not run directly under the planned parallel runway.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/devplan/yourfingal/stage4/maps/South%20Fringe%20SF2/a.htm
weehamster
20-10-2006, 16:52
I am in the US at the moment working and I checked the UTV news site on the off chance and lo and behold Dublin is to get a brilliant metro north with an ace, integrated route route.
However, I think UTV has posted a world exclusive preview of the rolling stock to be used. Do you think it'll be carrying beet as well as commuters?
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=77410&pt=n
What a beauty.
Though to be honest, the tram pictures on the RPA Metro North Map arent good looking either.
They are just citadis luas pics!
James Shields
21-10-2006, 17:55
They are just citadis luas pics!
I don't think they're Luas pics. I would expect the RPA have a 3D model of a possible Metro vehicle (though the exact vehicle won't be known until after the tender process), which is presumably based on Luas.
weehamster
22-10-2006, 17:34
If you look carefull at picture 3 you can see Ballymun flats in the background. Now this could be from the aule Dundrum to Sillogue Luas line but I doubt it.
Now RPA were quoted saying that the metro tram will look very similar to the Luas tram.
I don't think they're Luas pics. I would expect the RPA have a 3D model of a possible Metro vehicle (though the exact vehicle won't be known until after the tender process), which is presumably based on Luas.
Yeah they are, fairly obvious I thought.
Any planned new rail system should be routed with multiple numbers of points of interchange with existing public transport nodes, in particular those that coincide with high capacity suburban and regional/national transport nodes.
The new route chosen for Metro North is welcome to the extent that departs from the original publicised route and will now coincide with Drumcondra station serving the Maynooth suburban line (planned Greystones-Maynooth DART)
As previously publicised, the fact that it will also concide with the new interconnector at St. Stephens Green linking with the Kildare suburban line (planned Balbriggan-Hazelhatch Dart) and will have direct links with both Red and Green Luas is welcome but nothing more than one would expect from a planned network.
It is my view however that the route should interchange directly with the DART at Tara Street DART Station which is the busiest suburban rail station in Dublin.
Given that a direct single station interchange appears to be off the agenda, a second best approach could be simply achieved by routing an underground pedestrian tunnel between the new 'landmark' underground station' at O' Connell Bridge to an area within the curtilage of Tara Street Station allowing interchange in relative comfort and with minimal 'perceived' distance between the points of interchange. This is the approach that appears to have been adopted with the pedestrian tunnel to the Luas at Abbey Street.
A clearly delineated foot passage between O'Connell Bridge station and Tara Street Dart would make interchange more comfortable for Irish passengers and international visitors and further incentivise public transport over private.
Rail travel experience in London, New York, Munich, Frankfort, Berlin, Toronto, Montreal is made simple by ease of interchange between international/suburban/metro/underground/tram with frequent direct foot passages between routes even where there are relatively significant distances between them (between 400 and 600m). The perception is that the lines are relatively close as you are not subjected to 'surfacing' amongst shoppers etc. If opportunities for interchange are not made easy and comfort within stations is not maximised, the optimisation of passenger numbers and full benefits of our investment will not be achieved.
Where maximum distances between Metro and rail or Metro and DART interchanges are of the order of maximum 3/400m by foot and are clearly delineated by underground tunnel from within DART/Rail/Metro/Luas stations highest passenger usage between services will be achieved. :)
Donal Quinn
23-10-2006, 13:40
http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/events_attachments/dublinxpress.jpg
i knew this map would come in handy!
i take your points about integration of public transport but i fail to see the benefit in your specific proposal.
tara is in between pearse and connolly on the DART 2 line - given that there is already a "barrier-free" (we are told) interchange with the metro (aka orange luas) and the DART 2 at drumcondra. surely there is no need for a direct link between O'Connell bridge and Tara st which is not itself an interchange station although the stations before and after it are...
Whilst there will be an interchange between the Metro and Dart 1 at St. Stephens Green and Metro and Dart 2 at Drumcondra I would firstly argue that the more opportunities there are for customer friendly ease of transfer at interchange points between the various rail options (and the other travel modes) the better. When the whole network is complete it is not 'essential' that these 2 stations are linked but the more choices people have the better. If its not made easy people won't do it.
Secondly, it looks likely that the government (and also opposition parties) have invested sufficient energy, enthusiasm and commitment into this project that it is unlikely to be reversed, with the metro section to the airport completed at a very minimum. However, despite its obvious and clear merits, the future of the interconnector is less certain and the minister has given little away in terms of guaranteeing its delivery. There is a planned minimum timelag of 3 years between completing the Metro and the electrification of the suburban lines and completion of the interconnector. The likelihood is that there will be an even greater timelag in its delivery and therefore no interchange between Metro and the existing Dart network (Malahide/Howth to Bray/Greystones) for a minimum of 5+ years.
A small investment, during Metro construction phase, constructing an underground foot passage between the 'landmark' underground city Metro station and the busiest Dart station on the network would make obvious sense and assist customers during the interm period and make ease of transfer easier. It would obviously be benificial in the longer term also. It could hardly be negative.
Short terms and simple solutions, similar to the temporary Docklands station (or the reopening of the Phoenix Park tunnel to passenger traffic!), make sense. If during the intervening period there are poor connections between Metro and Dart. That would be short sighted.
2Funki4Wheelz
23-10-2006, 15:30
:) Excellent news, especially for a proper Airport system and for Swords where I used to live (which is huuuge now). We were getting the DART 'soon', when I was kid (mid-late eighties). Maybe this time something really will happen.
# Santry Demesne
Station to serve development here. However development is also taking place on the opposite side of the link road and the RPA envisage a new pedestrian bridge to link metro station with it.
Do you know where this stop is, exactly? Santry Demense is a pretty big place :-) I'd hope it would be somewhere around Swords Road / Coolock Lane junction so it would connect with the orbital 17A but I'm guessing it's somewhere further north around Crown Plaza?
Derek Wheeler
25-10-2006, 00:00
Its effectively in Ballymun.
Santry Demense runs from the old N1 near Santry stadium (Crown Plaza) back towards Ballymun. The Metro station will be located alongside the link road from Ballymun to the M50 junction.(The road that runs from Collins Avenue through Ballymun and towards the M50.) At the moment its a relative no-mans land, but apparently development is planned.
Colm Donoghue
25-10-2006, 13:05
Is the "Ballymun" stop then to be south of where the old roundabout was, the santry demesne then north of Santry avenue( and the new and improved higher than the old highrise ballymun tower) in the vicinity of where ikea was planned to go and metropark to be north of the m50? with a degree of vagueness about where exactly these will go?
Is "link road from Ballymun to the M50 junction" not the Ballymun road really? I would have always considered it to be so from the m50 to the met office.
Is there any chance the metro north trains will be driverless? I'm just back from Paris and noticed that the (relatively) new line 14 operates this way. The platforms have platform edge automatic doors, similar to the jubilee line in London and the train is completely staff free.
Derek Wheeler
25-10-2006, 16:19
Is the "Ballymun" stop then to be south of where the old roundabout was, the santry demesne then north of Santry avenue( and the new and improved higher than the old highrise ballymun tower) in the vicinity of where ikea was planned to go and metropark to be north of the m50? with a degree of vagueness about where exactly these will go?
Exactly.
Do you know where this stop is, exactly? Santry Demense is a pretty big place :-) I'd hope it would be somewhere around Swords Road / Coolock Lane junction so it would connect with the orbital 17A but I'm guessing it's somewhere further north around Crown Plaza?
I live in Northwood at the moment so I have an interest (but I suspect i won't be living here by the time the metro opens :) )
http://www.calligrafont.com/john/metrostop.jpg
From what I read they intend going up the east side of Ballymun Road, so they may have an alignment along the old road (directly outside the entrance to Northwood)- it may minimise traffic disruption.
The RPA (http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/October%202006%20-%20Dublin%20Metro%20North.pdf) have a decent looking map of the proposed station sites.
Colm Donoghue
26-10-2006, 08:40
I guess this is really too late to add any comment, but the Griffith avenue station should really be between Grifith ave. and Homefarm road to maximize it's catchement. having it where it is will only have a catchment on one side. not too many people from the farm gonna be getting the metro...
Mark Gleeson
26-10-2006, 08:56
The Griffith Rd stop is built on or adjacent to a plot of land owned by DCU which is being developed into a second campus
Given the route of the tunnel its about the only place it could go
If you draw the 10 minute walking circle around the stops you should find they overlap
Navan Junction
18-11-2006, 08:57
RPA to rethink Ballymun section of Metro North
Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, 18.11.2006
The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is to re-examine its preferred options for routing Dublin's Metro North through Ballymun.
The 17km (10.6-mile) metro is set to take passengers underground from St Stephen's Green to Dublin City University (DCU) where it will rise to street level, and pass along the central median on Ballymun Road and Ballymun Main Street.
When the route was announced last month, the RPA said it was considering three options for the Ballymun section. These included an on-street design, an elevated design and putting the line in a trench along the middle of the road.
However, following opposition from locals, The Irish Timesunderstands the RPA has agreed to consider scrapping all three options to continue the metro underground until it has passed Ballymun and possibly the M50.
Labour transport spokeswoman RóisÃ*n Shortall revealed senior RPA executives met with local councillors, TDs and executives of Ballymun regeneration this week to work out a solution.
Ms Shortall said there were serious difficulties with all of the original RPA options. In relation to the on-street design, the route would traverse three major intersections in the area of Main Street. " . . . And you cannot have a high-speed train crossing three junctions at the lights," she said.
In relation to the elevated proposal, Ms Shortall said it was impractical to put the train "looking in the first-floor windows of homes" while issues would arise in relation to the space under the line which could give rise to anti-social behaviour.
In relation to the trench proposal, she said there were safety issues for pedestrians and trains. The RPA is to revert to the groups on Tuesday with further proposals.
According to Ms Shortall, a solution which does not involve any of the original three put forward by the RPA is a must if the project is to be successful. "You simply can't spend €3 billion on a high-speed train and then ruin its effectiveness by asking it to stop three times in a short section for junctions with road traffic."
Similarly, she said, it was not realistic to expect people in Ballymun to put up with an elevated or trench section when it could be put underground elsewhere along the route. Metro North is expected to complete its journey from St Stephen's Green to Dublin airport in 17 minutes, arriving at Swords in 26 minutes.
Money money money..
TBMs still going from Albert College Park?
I don't know Ballymun at all. If the metro really would have to cross three roads then it probably is best to put it underground.
Again not familiar with the area, would elevated really be that bad? I've seen it work fine in Paris, a city which has a lot more in it than Dublin.
I think the point being made is that if elevated is good enough for Ballymun then why not along the entire route? I reckon digging a trench is 75%+ of the cut and cover process anyway, so why not go the whole hog and bury it. It'd be better in the long run. I know Ballymun well enough to know that the idea of running at grade is crazy and elevated would be a retrograde step, given the money spent on re-engineering Ballymun following years of neglect. I'd imagine that cut and cover might actually be not much more expensive than elevating the line in any case.
I would agree with that Phillip.
Navan Junction
20-11-2006, 08:02
Irish Times, 20th November 2006
The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is to meet public representatives from Ballymun tomorrow in a bid to find a solution to local concerns about Dublin's Metro North. Tim O'Brienreports.
Local politicians and representatives of Ballymun Regeneration, who have already met the RPA on one occasion, want the metro to run underground.
But while the RPA agreed to consider its options following the last meeting, a spokesman insisted going underground "is not being considered".
The Irish Times understands that cost is a critical factor in the agency's deliberations.
However, Labour TD for the area RóisÃ*n Shortall said no other option was suitable for the community or for the success of the line, and she believed it would become an election issue if the RPA did not accede to local wishes.
The three options for the route through the north Dublin suburb include an overground "on stilts" option; running the train line up the median of Ballymun Road and Main Street; or running it in a trench along the median.
But locals point to the presence of three junctions on Ballymun's Main Street at which they claim a high-speed train could not be expected to stop and queue at traffic lights. They also believe the line would represent a permanent barrier down the middle of Main Street, a feature which it is claimed would negate much of the refurbishment in the area.
Locals are also strongly opposed to the elevated option, claiming that such a design has led to anti-social behaviour underneath similar rail-lines in other cities.
They say there is also an issue with the route passing houses at first-floor level, as passengers would have a direct line of sight into private homes.
The third option to put the line in a trench is also less than desirable, according to Ms Shortall, who said it it would be a potential hazard.
If agreement cannot be reached at tomorrow's meeting, locals have pledged to make it an election issue.
But the RPA told The Irish Timeslast night it was satisfied that it was proceeding with the plans as they were proposed in the public consultation.
The agency said it was prepared to look at all the options and "work through the difficulties", but it repeated that putting the metro underground at Ballymun "is not being considered".
I'm so confused. Last week we were told (http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=13172&postcount=16) that "there are no level crossings on Metro North".
How does it cross three junctions without any level crossings?
Mark Gleeson
20-11-2006, 09:24
Which is true if you go on the preferred evalated route
2Funki4Wheelz
20-11-2006, 09:46
Irish Times, 20th November 2006
Locals are also strongly opposed to the elevated option, claiming that such a design has led to anti-social behaviour underneath similar rail-lines in other cities.
Not really a valid reason to rule elevation out, there's anti-social behaviour at the current Luas stations already and I'm sure "under stilts" areas would have CCTV. And since underground and level crossings are bashed in that article, do the locals not want this transport at all??
I think a reminder of the rubbish 13 bus service is in order, then a Luas is a lot more attractive. A little disruption vs a big benefit?
Locals are also strongly opposed to the elevated option, claiming that such a design has led to anti-social behaviour underneath similar rail-lines in other cities.
Mother of God! This country drives me insane sometimes. What countires, where?
What about the evelated metro lines that don't have anti-social behaviour under them. Why do they never get any attention.
If the locals have such an issue why was this not brought up at the route selection?
Mark Gleeson
20-11-2006, 10:44
So the locals dont want it elevated, its the best option, nice bit of modern concrete and we know the RPA know how to do it, e.g. Dundrum
No one wants it at ground level since it screws the traffic up and results in a disaster from a operating point of view
And the cut and cover option, very messy in disruption terms they don't want that either
The undergound option is expensive and requires a underground station in Ballymun
Which option results in more anti social behavour my money is on the underground option
So the locals dont want it elevated, .....
No one wants it at ground level since it screws the traffic up......
And the cut and cover option, very messy in disruption terms.....
The undergound option is expensive and requires a underground station in Ballymun
The height of the "stilts" will have to be considerable to clear the M50 embankment. It's like a wall running accross the alignment. The proposal for stilts can only be justified on cost grounds, certainly not on aestetic ones.
It will be like a switchback, as proposed, rising from the city tunnel at DCU, stilts rising to a fair height through Ballymun town centre until it clears M50. (Anyone got a height for this? Certainly much higher than "First floor" house level per La Shortall). Then it has to drop fairly quickly to tyhe airport tunnel at Metro Park.
The only two options are underground or elevated, certainly.
Cut n cover method will run into problems crossing M50, having carriageways closed for long periods and gridlocking the motorway.
My preference would be for tunnel route. What cost difference, approx, between stilts v tunnel machine continueing from DCU to airport tunnel?
I would agree with the opinion that elevated does attract a degree of anti social behaviour but it does not create that anti social behaviour. these individuals already partake in this behaviour elsewhere but will be attracted by the cover an elevated line provides.
Solution design an elevated section which is well lit (single supporting pylons so no area under the line is obscured from view) well serviced by cctv (this includes monitering the footage), is well patrolled by gardai (not going to happen but put it in anyway) and most importantly is within a busy focal point for people to congregate (have open businesses in the area).
When elevated sections of track are stuck down side streets the they do have a tendency to become "dodgy places" (see areas of Sydney if you dont believe me Kings cross to bondi in particular)
With regard the underground option if the metro is an open system then this would lead to much more anti social behaviour.
Why not try doing something clever with the elevated section, put kiosks underneath or something that will attract people to the area and keep those bridge dwelling trolls away?
Why not try doing something clever with the elevated section, put kiosks underneath or something that will attract people to the area and keep those bridge dwelling trolls away?
Paul, we're talking several miles of "elevated section". What has been suggested by RPA is a ballymun solution not acceptable elsewhere in Dublin. It will march down the centre of Ballymun Road like a Berlin Wall. It will be no addition to the regeneration being carried out by Dublin City Co. It will look what it is, the cheap solution for a percieved cheap part of the city.
It's a row just waiting for it's day.
I understood that the largest costs in tunnelling was the insertion and recovery pits for the TBM. Here we are getting two sets, Stephen's Green (or wherever) to DCU, then Metro Park to north of airport. I dont see, in overall scheme of things, extra cost of tunnelling to be huge when offset by saving cost of entry and extraction pits with cost of stilt structure.
Paul, we're talking several miles of "elevated section". What has been suggested by RPA is a ballymun solution not acceptable elsewhere in Dublin. It will march down the centre of Ballymun Road like a Berlin Wall. It will be no addition to the regeneration being carried out by Dublin City Co. It will look what it is, the cheap solution for a percieved cheap part of the city.
Right, as my name is the first word in that post, I am assuming it was directed at me.
1. I already stated I am not familiar with the area. I have no idea how long it will be. Instead of saying "Down with that sort of thing", try suggesting ways to improve it.
2. I never said it wasn't good enough for Dublin, I would be quite happy to see it all elevated. Do not put words in my mouth.
3. You know, for definite, that a rail line will not help regeneration? Please explain how. I do know other cities manage fine with elevated rails. Dublin can too.
4. As Mark said, look at Dundrum.
Again, I'm not too familiar with the area, but would it not be possible to run it at ground level and have the roads cross it at grade rather than the other way around? or maybe some combination of both? Given that it's not heavy rail, will the metro be able to deal with steeper gradients than the DART?
I guess it all depends on the overall design. A large impressive suspension bridge would probably work quite well, whereas a long concrete embankment would be a disaster.
Thomas J Stamp
20-11-2006, 16:57
Since I lived there for 29 years I guess I'm familiar with the area.
The elevated section would afaik run from what is now Ballymun Senior Comprehensive School up to the new hotel at Santry(?) Cross. The reason why is because whilst the old Ballymun road was a dual carraigeway all the way from Mobhi road to the M50, it is now a DC to the Library, then a main street (albeit a bit wide) and then a DC again. I can only really see the need for an elevated section alone the main street.
The new Civic Offices and the new main plaza are also on the main street, it wouldnt be feasable to have it between the road, also there are several new intersections and about four pedestrian crossings. If it is the be stilts i dont see it being for any more than that section, and if it is for that section only, you can easily have it at first floor level, bear in mind that the buildings alone the main street are pretty big as it is, its not as if it'll be going past normal houses.
Regarding the height of the M50 embankment, it is a fair height. But, it is a very long way away from Ballymun and indeed the DC from Santry Cross to the M50 intersection is a quite easy gradient, albeit a long one. Should the Metro simply go up the median it will be at the height of the overbridges when it gets to the M50. You then have to consider if you are going to copy the LUAS red cow idea or have it hoofed over the intersection itself?
You have another, slightly easier idea as well. You coulfd go back into the ground at Santry Cross. Plenty of time to clear under the M50 and hear towards the airport and have your stop as well.
Thomas J Stamp
20-11-2006, 17:02
Not really a valid reason to rule elevation out, there's anti-social behaviour at the current Luas stations already and I'm sure "under stilts" areas would have CCTV. And since underground and level crossings are bashed in that article, do the locals not want this transport at all??
I think a reminder of the rubbish 13 bus service is in order, then a Luas is a lot more attractive. A little disruption vs a big benefit?
When people hear "under stilts" they think of the old lock ups and the like in London under the rail lines. This will be a lot more like you get in New York and places like that, the stilts would be fairly far apart, and there would be as much anti secial behaviour as you'd get under any normal bridge.
As for the 13, i like the 13. Its a lot better then the 36 was, believe me.
2Funki4Wheelz
20-11-2006, 17:23
As for the 13, i like the 13. Its a lot better then the 36 was, believe me.
:eek: 36? Back when things were in black & white?
No, seriously, 13s suffer from a lack of dependibility,sometimes they simply mightn't show up leaving a huge gap. I assume Metro will have Luas-esque displays - 3 mins etc.
Excellent point re the height/line of sight if it runs through that part, no actual houses to look into. And as previously mentioned, if it was designed anything like Dundrum I think it adds to the area.
Right, as my name is the first word in that post, I am assuming it was directed at me.
1. I already stated I am not familiar with the area. I have no idea how long it will be. Instead of saying "Down with that sort of thing", try suggesting ways to improve it.
I did read that and why I'm saying to you that the section is quite long, not a bridge structure for commercial units to be tucked under, as I read from your post. The M50 is enbanked to pass over original road system running North/South, being some 6-7 metres (at least, I feel higher, but don't know) over "ground" level. Metro will need to rise a further 6-7 metres to clear M50. Overhead power would be another 6 metres higher again. We're talking a structure around 20 metres (65 feet) through domestic houses 7.2m high. Its an understatement that the stilts will have quite an impact on the visual environment and will attract opposition. Thats why I'm suggesting continual tunnelling be considered to north of airport.
2. I never said it wasn't good enough for Dublin, I would be quite happy to see it all elevated. Do not put words in my mouth.
I dont believe I quoted the idea as yours but rather being RPA. I would be very doubious to see it all elevated, and without doubt I'd be more that unhappy to see it elevated to the height I'm suggesting it needs be. Aestestically, Loop line Bridge is still decried visually, even thought most of the Loop Line is hidden with buildings now. Loop Line is nowhere the height Ballymun needs to be.
3. You know, for definite, that a rail line will not help regeneration? Please explain how.
I did not express myself well. I was referring to the architectural regeneration of Ballymun, which is the result of years of planning and consultation with all strands. The elevated metro will overshadow all and be out of proportion, needlessly. Of course a rail line will help social and commercial regeneration. It would do that weither on stilts or underground.
QUOTE=Paul Mulcahy;13791]
I do know other cities manage fine with elevated rails. Dublin can too.[/QUOTE]
You have the advantage on me there. I am aware of very high bridges in urban environments, usually with either higher buildings imediately around, or lower ones below in gorge/valley situations. I cannot think of any rail line 300% taller than the immediate built environment.
QUOTE=Paul Mulcahy;13791]
4. As Mark said, look at Dundrum.
[/QUOTE]
Its a bridge. What cost per km? I feel tunnelling would not suffer in a financial conparision, and would not create the opposition that the stilt structure will generate.
Regarding the height of the M50 embankment, it is a fair height. But, it is a very long way away from Ballymun and indeed the DC from Santry Cross to the M50 intersection is a quite easy gradient, albeit a long one. Should the Metro simply go up the median it will be at the height of the overbridges when it gets to the M50.
Would you like to give a flyer at the enbankment height? What do you mean by DC? I'm not familar with that.
You then have to consider if you are going to copy the LUAS red cow idea or have it hoofed over the intersection itself?
You have another, slightly easier idea as well. You coulfd go back into the ground at Santry Cross. Plenty of time to clear under the M50 and hear towards the airport and have your stop as well.
I prefer the last suggestion to having a second Mad Cow !
I still cann't see the advantage in breaking the continuety of tunnelling for Ballymun Centre, with all the costs in relocating the TBM such a short distance
The RandstadRail project in the Nederlands was an influence on the RPA when designing the metro system and here are some examples of elevated tramways, good and bad, old and modern:
http://www.humanhub.nl/RandstadRail_Melanchtonweg.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/66/155014816_2f18ebbd9b_m.jpg
http://foto.denhaag.org/html/randstadrail-beatrixkwartier/projecten_00.jpg
http://www.stipdelft.nl/files/Netkous%20RandstadRail.jpg
http://www.fotofinity.com/files/users/997739520ychang/1003609711ychangOTOZXH/sm/sm_a4860f161d2ec4e433e52eedee923dae.jpg
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/oct-lrt-fullerton-rend-cameo_octa.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthijs_borghgraef/157289513/in/set-72057594049321240/
One of the best examples however of what the RPA might be looking at would be the bridge that forms part of the extension to Cherrywood:
357
Gobdaw, the metro north shall be crossing the M50 east of the interchange so the elevated structure will only have to rise above the carriageway level and could possibly be at the same road height as the actual interchange so it could still go at grade up to Santry Demesne stop AND clear the M50.
Thomas J Stamp
20-11-2006, 17:53
DC = Dual Carraigeway.
A flyer? Sure I know it like the back of my hand.
Its not correct to say that the embankment was to meet the roads in the area. You can see the orignal road to your left coming down the embankment into Ballymun, the embankment was created to allow the bridges to pass over the M50, you go down both sides north and south, admiddedly there was a hill there before where the junction is now.
I am not aginst a tunnell all the way at all, in fact that's what it should be.
If it were stilts it could be this:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/362/imagespf8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
which is from the Amsterdam Metro's above ground bit.
The RandstadRail project in the Nederlands was an influence on the RPA when designing the metro system and here are some examples of elevated tramways, good and bad, old and modern:
http://www.humanhub.nl/RandstadRail_Melanchtonweg.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/66/155014816_2f18ebbd9b_m.jpg
http://foto.denhaag.org/html/randstadrail-beatrixkwartier/projecten_00.jpg
http://www.stipdelft.nl/files/Netkous%20RandstadRail.jpg
http://www.fotofinity.com/files/users/997739520ychang/1003609711ychangOTOZXH/sm/sm_a4860f161d2ec4e433e52eedee923dae.jpg
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/oct-lrt-fullerton-rend-cameo_octa.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthijs_borghgraef/157289513/in/set-72057594049321240/
One of the best examples however of what the RPA might be looking at would be the bridge that forms part of the extension to Cherrywood:
357
Gobdaw, the metro north shall be crossing the M50 east of the interchange so the elevated structure will only have to rise above the carriageway level and could possibly be at the same road height as the actual interchange so it could still go at grade up to Santry Demesne stop AND clear the M50.
Gobdaw, most of the above is why I think it could look well. Again, not familiar with the area but just because a rail line is elevated it does not mean it will ruin an area. Some can add character. I don't expect anything like the loop line or the green metal bridge above. Rather something modern and interesting looking.
I don't know much about Ballymun either, but I wonder:
how much of the Metro is to run on EL besides the bit through Ballymun?
and how much would it cost money/time to put the disputed section underground via cut and cover? C&C I think is the best way to build a Metro anyway.
Colm Donoghue
21-11-2006, 10:41
Some of the alignment through Swords will be elevated I presume or else the roundabouts will need to be re-aligned
I wonder if all those who are complaining now could publish their comments to the rpa they wrote during the public consultation?
I wonder if it is the people of Ballymun that Rosin Shorthall is concerned about or the people of Ballymun road?
I presume the route is going to surface in Hampstead park?
It'll have to rise to >= 6m to cross Ballymun road southbound to the median.
It'll have to stay above this for the junction at Ballymun church/ old Scout den
It'll have to be elevated for the Collins ave/Glasnevin ave junction.
There's a u turn lane aross from the Library. This may be closed, allowing the metro to come down to ground level for a while. The metro will need to rise up again to pass therough the "main st" in Ballymun. I'm not sure of the new layout but approximately from where the old Roundabout/ towers pub was to the Santry Avenue junction. There's too many crossroads here to do any on grade stuff. there's a median crossing at northwood/petrol station this may be closed but the metro route is gonna bear east here and run parallel to the m50 for a time before crossing it.
The difference as I see it about this is the metro will pass elevated in fromt of people's homes. All elevated rail lines in Dublin so far pass behind people's homes (Dart lines, luas). Personally I'd much rather have a rail line in front, leaving some privacy in the back.
I presume the metro can take hills as steep as Adelaide road to Charlemont stop on the luas line?
Thomas J Stamp
21-11-2006, 11:08
We were told that the reason why the RPA have favoured the system they have chose is that its adaptability allows for on street running, so along the median of the ballymun road, LUAS style traffic controll at junctions and up and over the main street (and it is from the old roundabout, past St. Pappins Church and School as far as Santry Avenue) and then either back down or simply merge with the incline of the embankment.
Personally, I think its a lot simpler to stick it underground, they have a tunnelling yoke, the tunnel can come out at Santry Cross instead of Hampsted Park, its only about two/three miles.
.....allows for on street running, so along the median of the ballymun road, LUAS style traffic controll at junctions and up and over the main street...
Am I getting that right? Metro crossing road traffic at grade, controlled by traffic lights? Should we not be at least looking for total grade separation, however that is achieved? The future has to be the elimination of level crossings not the building of others.
Personally, I think its a lot simpler to stick it underground, they have a tunnelling yoke, the tunnel can come out at Santry Cross instead of Hampsted Park, its only about two/three miles.
Amen to that, but also keep it underground to north of airport and be done with it.
Amen to that, but also keep it underground to north of airport and be done with it.
Go to Paris, they have one of the best metro systems in the world. A huge amount of this is overground
I am totally against level crossing or traffic lights. However, just because a system is not underground does not make it bad. Just because a system is overground it does not necessarily make the environs ugly.
Thomas J Stamp
21-11-2006, 14:55
I have just been reviewing this thread as a whole.
I'm doing a letter to the RPA, here it is:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8765/rpagz5.png (http://imageshack.us)
Go to Paris, they have one of the best metro systems in the world. A huge amount of this is overground
I am totally against level crossing or traffic lights. However, just because a system is not underground does not make it bad. Just because a system is overground it does not necessarily make the environs ugly.
The point of my posts is not about overground, but about elevated rail. Not at all the same thing. I did not know that a huge amount of Paris metro was elevated. I do happpen to know that in common with other cities a large proportion of it is overground. I would have thought that that was fairly basic information, but thank you. I have been posting, as you must know, on elevated sections, particularly in Ballymun urban centre. I think it is now you that is putting words in my mouth.
If the reason for elevated rail is cost, which I believe, then that does not inspire confidence in the creation of something beautiful but rather the almost Inevitablity of leading to the creation of something ugly.
Well, thats my experience, for what it's worth.
Gobdaw, be civil. </mod>
Now, I actually meant elevated. Yes, much of the Paris metro is elevated. When I said overground I meant as in over the ground, above ground level. Whether any of it is at grade I do no know. Now, if Paris can manage with elevated rail lines, I'm sure Dublin can manage too.
Thomas, I'm sure your letter will have a big effect.
2Funki4Wheelz
21-11-2006, 15:18
I'm doing a letter to the RPA, here it is:
:D
Don't forget to cc in Roisin on it.
Apologies for seeming uncivil in my posts.
I have looked up Wikipedia ( God help us) and it says the following:
"World War II had a massive impact on the Paris métro. During the German occupation, metro services were limited and many stations were closed. Because of the bombing risk, it was decided that the service between Place d’Italie and Eloile would be transferred from line 5 to line 6 so that most of the elevated portions of the Paris metro would be on a single line: line 6. As a result, lines 2 and 6 together now form a metro circle."
Line 6 is stated to be 13.6 km of the overall of 210.2 km, or 6.5% of the total.
Thomas, the letter is good, but the handwritting needs a lot of improvement.:D
I didn't know that. Anyhoo, my point is still elevated is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a habit in this country to hear something and assume it will be awful and disastrous and a waste of money.
This is to me what people are doing with the metro. There is an instant elevated=bad to this idea and I really don't think it will be.
In fairness, I think this has more to do with Ms Shortall electioneering than any concern for the impact of Metro on Ballymum. I'm sure the people of Ballymum will accept any reasonable proposal put forward by the RPA once it doesn't cause the problems they are raising.
Underground, at ground level, overground... there are ways to do them all in a good way, we just need to make sure the RPA do, and don't create something which will undermine all the good work which has taken place in Ballymum in recent years.
On a side issue, the A'dam Metro runs underground, at ground level, and also elevated at certain points. They all seem to work just fine.
http://de.geocities.com/m_pix1/ams/amsterdam-gallery.htm
There is an instant elevated=bad to this idea and I really don't think it will be.
I think the "EL" would give a bit of character to some places.
Also, alot of people would be less afraid in elevated stations than in underground ones. Some of the other threads speak a little about an "atmosphere" on part of the blue luas line. Can you imagine this atmosphere in a hole in the ground?
I think the "EL" would give a bit of character to some places.
Also, alot of people would be less afraid in elevated stations than in underground ones. Some of the other threads speak a little about an "atmosphere" on part of the blue luas line. Can you imagine this atmosphere in a hole in the ground?
eh where is the blue luas line ??
eh where is the blue luas line ??
The metro. ;)
I think they ought to just cut and cover the whole thing as much as possible: my opinion is that C&C makes the best 'finished product'.
Since it's technically underground, arriving/waiting passengers are protected from the weather = more comfort. But since it's just below the street level, it's easy to get to and from and you're rarely more than a few meters away from surface if for whatever reason you need to. Also you can use grates in the street to take care of ventilation and a lot of emergency access.
I've used C&C systems in New York, Munich and Berlin, and having your train being just below the ground is the most pleasent experience possible.
eh where is the blue luas line ??
Oops, sorry, just claiming the red one for the real dubs!
I've always thought that the green line should have been blue. That way, when we finally get an integrated system, the current DART could be green! Just seems more appropriate.
If IE had ever taken their head out of their arses they might, just might, have realised how other systems are operated and designated colours and the like. They never quite did and now they are scrambling through the markers set to see what colours the RPA have left them!:D
James Shields
27-11-2006, 01:53
I'm coming to this discussion a little late, but one or two observations...
On the issue of "staring in people's first floor windows", the line would have to be at least 6m above ground to allow all vehicles to pass under, putting it more like the level of people's 2nd floor windows. There would also be two lanes of roadway separating the line from houses, and if people are still worried, they could consider investing in a set of curtains. As to it being ugly, that's down to the architects to get right.
North of Ballymun, the line is expected to swing right to go east of the Ballymun road through Santry Demesne. At this point there should be no problem to drop down to grade as it's off-street. The M50 overbridge should be no higher than any of the road bridges.
Elevated railways can give antisocial elements a place to congregate, but the railway can't be blamed for creating antisocial behaviour, and if people want to misbehave, they will find somewhere to do so. If the Metro is there, it will almost certainly attract some element of that no matter how it's built.
I think most people here will agree that any at-grade solution should be ruled out. At the initial frequency it might be okay, but there's no way it could allow the service to be increased to 90sec intervals.
Cut and cover is not all that different from building it in a trench. You just put a roof on the trench. It may arguably give the best user experience, but the disruption while it's being built would be hellish. Still, a wide straight road like the Ballymun road would be the ideal place to do cut and cover.
The final option of a deep tunnel is worth considering. The tunnel has to be bored a out of the city, and under the airport. I would like to at least see a cost analysis of linking the two so there would be a continuous bored tunnel from the city centre to north of the airport. The tunnel might cost a bit more, but a major part of the cost is inserting the TBM in the first place, so as the tunnel gets longer, the marginal cost of each extra mile goes down. However, the stations would certainly be more cost.
petronius
08-01-2007, 11:45
How much extra would it cost to have the Metro north "connect" to a northern rail line route - say at Donabate surely the route from Lissenhall would not be that difficult to facilitate it other than crossing the M1...
It would provide better 2-way traffic to dublin airport -
With intergrated ticketing getting on the suburban rail at Balbriggan and switching to the metro at Donabate(or wherever) and going to the airport or DCU or wherever..
Could the park and ride place at Lissenhall be a cheaper option as a "long term car park" for the airport ???
Mark Gleeson
08-01-2007, 12:14
Fingal CC turned down a proposal to reserve a route from Lissenhall over to Donabate which makes talking about it as a option rather pointless. Its important to note a huge lump of metro west has been reserved since 1975. Probably looking at ballpark of 250 million. Given Howth Junc to Ballymun to study stage is already in T21 its not happening in the next 15 years
Lissenhall terminus has been moved southwards slightly to faciliate a later extension by leaving options as open as possible. The car park is looking at 1000 spaces possibly 2000
Integrated ticketing could be implemented on all Luas and Rail tomorrow with zero investment in hardware, its petty infighting between the RPA and IE which make it impossible
Donal Quinn
08-01-2007, 13:00
Thsi email was sent around to the 2000 or so people on the DCU staff list
Local residents associations welcome the choice of the central route for
metro north and realise that it will be good for DCU and good for the
local area. They are, however, very concerned about the methods to be
used. Current RPA proposals involve going deep underground only from
Stephen's Green to Griffith Ave. After that, they propose a combination
of methods: cut and cover, open trench, surface and elevated. All of
these alternatives to undergound would wreak havoc with this area.
The RPA are organising an open day in Ballymun Civic Centre on 11
January from 11am to 8pm where all can come and view these proposals.
Residents associations are hoping that all concerned will come along to
be informed and to make their own views known
nice and neutral - 'wreak havoc'!!
Mark Gleeson
08-01-2007, 14:31
Of course DCU are getting not one but two stations
One for DCU and another at the new research campus at Griffith Avenue
Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT
Of course DCU are getting not one but two stations. One for DCU and another at the new research campus at Griffith Avenue
Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT
That's not entirely true, or fair. The second station is for a site which has no current plans and no other connection to the main campus. It's a nice to have but whether DCU will be ready to go when the metro is, is debatable.
Also the traffic on Collins avenue and Ballymun road in the mornings is bad enough already. Major construction work in the area can only make matters worse. No-one objects to the metro, they would just prefer it be built with the minimum of disruption which is hardly a crime.
Quote
They are, however, very concerned about the methods to be
used. Current RPA proposals involve going deep underground only from
Stephen's Green to Griffith Ave. After that, they propose a combination
of methods: cut and cover, open trench, surface and elevated. All of
these alternatives to undergound would wreak havoc with this area.
***************
I am a resident of the area and do have concerns over the planned route and in particular the elevated section. Firstly to those who claim that the elevated section will look ascetically pleasing, it won't. Many here have held up the bridge in Dundrum as a model of how well "over ground" structures can look however it is a bridge not 2km of 6-meter high track.
I was at the meeting in October and was told that the only reason for having an elevated structure was COST. This was the only reason cited and the RPA were basically trying to cut costs by lessening the amount of tunnelling - which is all fine unless you live there and have to put up with this cost cutting. Roisin Shorthall may be electioneering and probably doesn't really care if it is elevated or not but the local residents Ballymun do care and don't want the RPA cutting costs at their expense.
What I was told at the time was that the tunnel would come up in Hamsted Park. This is to be done by having the entrance coming up through the 6 football pitches and creating a station there. This turns the local park into an over ground metro station, cutting it's size in half and considering the construction and volume of soil removal there will destroy that park. Then the soil will have to travel the 2 km from Albert college up the ballymun road through ballymun and out onto the M 50. If you've seen whitehall in the last 5 years you'd understand why everyone along this route is opposed to that idea.
I cannot see why (except for cost obviously) that the tunnel cannot be extended to the green field site to the east of the m50 ballymun road interchange (either santry demise or on the far side of the M 50). This site would allow much greater access for TBM, soil removal and construction vehicles. There would have to be major planning involved to insure that traffic on the M50 itself is not interrupted however that is better than having one of the main arteries into the city pretty much closed for 3 years.
Do not get me wrong, the metro will be a fantastic facility and will benifit the noth and west side of dublin greatly but it must be done correctly and you cannot just steam roll a community on costs considering how much is being put into the area for regenaration purposes.
Hi Vbold and welcome to the board.
What I would recommend is that you raise this with the RPA but put it to them that ONLY an underground option is suitable. The surface running option will make a mockery of the word metro. We have enough of a mock transport system in this country and my main concern with this is that it is done properly, this is why I think elevated maybe ok. Either way, the surface option should be ruled out.
Hi Mark,
I have written to the RPA voicing my concerns over any about surface options for the noth line and hopefully they will listen. The upcoming election will help in making the politicians listen to the residents.
I don't believe the elevated structure is suitable because of the effect it will have on local amenities, the local environment and the visual impact that it will have.
Mark Gleeson
16-01-2007, 12:26
In our discussions with the RPA we left the issue of Ballymun to its residents
Our key concern that the metro is built
There where only two realistic options
go over
go under in tunnel
level or cut and cover where out too messy
The downside is the extra tunneling will cost considerably more and will add some months to the project for no benefit in terms of service
Donal Quinn
16-01-2007, 12:34
Sounds like someone living on the main street in Ballymun or maybe its the DCU equivalent of Sean Barrett or that guy in WIT
veering dangerously off topic but i had to post the latest from the "sean barrett of DCU"
Does anyone else have a problem with the volvo displayed on the helix
plaza along with an advertisement for the latest model? Could whoever is
responsible for this explain to us what it is doing there, what the
terms of the arrangement are and what place this has in a university?
Judging by the vote taken at my debate with the president over the
increasing commercialisation of the university, there is much disquiet
on this issue among university staff. I wonder if even the defenders of
commercialisation can defend this.
the point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....
Thomas J Stamp
16-01-2007, 12:38
Hello Vbold, and welcome. As an ex-resident I got the impression from the RPA that they were going to bring the Metro up at the old ESB offices (corner Collins Ave and Ballymun Road) and thus avoid Hampsted Park.
In any event it has to be underground. In the old Ballymun an elevated line could have hacked it, the old road was wide enough, not now, BRL have narrowed it to a main street and an elevated situation will ruin it.
The downside is the extra tunneling will cost considerably more and will add some months to the project for no benefit in terms of service
Yes it will cost more, but why should we have to take the pain of that cut in costs when the rest of the line in underground. You wouldn't see an elevated sturcture coming up in Tolka park or All Hollows and running up the drumcondra road right through bertie's constituency.
The benifit will be realisable in using a green field site, which is not located in a residential area to bore out the tunnel making the project much easier for contractors, residents and commuters.
I know that it will cost more but if you were facing 3/4/5 years of living next to one of the largest construction sites in the country you would want it underground. Plus I have absolutely no faith in the design or implementation of an elevated sturcture which will be an increadibly imposing structure when finished.
Nigel Fitzgricer
16-01-2007, 12:48
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but being from Ballymun myself and talkling to my relations who still live there, it would seem there is woeful ignorance about what an elevated rail metro will look like and many community community spokespeople, and even the likes of Rosin Shorthall seem very eager to contunually hype-up the idea that MetroNorth is to be built on Easternders-style railway viaduct with sheds and lock-ups beneath, or dirty, dark alcoves.
I understand 100% percent why Ballymun folk are so negative about this because they are comparing them to the sheds and garages which are at the bottom of the 8 and 4 story blocks and were for decades perhaps the number one reason for so much anti-social issues in Ballymun. They were pretty horrific and a magnet for all manner of lowlife. This unfortunately is what people in Ballymun think the elevated section of the metro is going to be like.
When I explained to my relatives it is going to look something more like this.
http://www.subways.net/australia/brisbane.jpg
And there will be no issue with looking in people's bedroom window because the tracks will be lined with screens, their whole atitude towards an elevated section though Ballymun changes. The most common comments I got back was. "well that fair enough then, not like what I was thinking it was going to be like at all"
So I personally think the issue here is the RPA need to get up to Ballymun and explain to the people there what the viaduct/piers will actually look like with nice illustations and models. And show best practice versions in other residential neighbourhoods around the world. I bet the whole issue would be resolved very quickly and people would forget about extra tunnelling under Balymun.
If the RPA guys are reading this, then lads give it a go. People in Balymun are not objecting for the sake of it and if you explain to them properly what you're planning they will accept it.
************************
he point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....
**************************
I am not a anti everything, but I do want the project to be right. The decision will take however long it takes....
Nigel Fitzgricer
16-01-2007, 13:05
************************
he point tho is that if the anti-everything brigade get on top of this then the whole project will be delayed for years - like that soer looser who almost killed the spire....
**************************
I am not a anti everything, but I do want the project to be right. The decision will take however long it takes....
That last line actually made me shudder because it the kind of comment we heard out of North Mayo for the last couple of years by people who simply refused to listen to any facts, reason or unbaised reports.
Vbold, It can be elevated and still be just as built "right" as an underground line. Educate yourself about metros and look at how millions of people around the world are perfectly happy with them on elevated section in their midst. I am not being consending to you - but honestly, there is a whole world of elevated urban metro projects out there.
I would bet if the the RPA decided to go underground a whole other group of people would be screaming "New York-style subway gangs!" or "the buildings above will collaspe!!!!!!" demanding it be built above ground.
and I would bet half the ones who are currently objecting to this elevated idea would jump on that badwagon as well. Don't say this wouldn't happen either because it would.
Please do not turn MetroNorth in another Rossport5 circus or you kill the whole thing off or at best delayed for years and years. Honestly, try to think beyond your own personal expectations and consider the local and national implications of delaying MetroNorth for years and the effects it will have on your fellow Irish citizens. Please consider this before you launch a crusade against a few hundred meters of viaduct.
We expect this GAA-jersey, anti-Irish citizen selfish mindset in rural Mayo, but people in urban areas should be a lot more aware that they have to share this country with their fellow citizen and would at least understand that the needs of the society are more important than personal expectations.
Thomas J Stamp
16-01-2007, 13:43
the sheds and garages which are at the bottom of the 8 and 4 story blocks and were for decades perhaps the number one reason for so much anti-social issues in Ballymun. They were pretty horrific and a magnet for all manner of lowlife.
I went to many Discos in the sheds, Nige, and we stored our bonfire stuff there as well. I also used to hide my crossbow there away from my folks, but that's for another thread.
And you're right, it wont be Eastenders type bridges, and for your informaotion it wont be that utopia photo you found either.
The RPA themselfs give us this crappy monstrosity on page one of their options:
http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=152
Which is even awfull with grown trees and on a wonderful day and we both know that most days in Ballymun are wet and miserable.
The civic square was sold by BRL to Ballymun as the cornerstone of the redevelopment, to take away from wide spaces and open places that was mostly what Ballymun consisted of. Now here comes the RPA planning to stuck this pile of rubbish on it and have the monorail from the Simpsons down the middle - a middle what was elimiinated because ther divided the commutinty - and is now being recreated.
So bloody what if it takes longer to do it right? Do you advocate the usual way of doing things (like Connolly LUAS stop) and have no future proofing at all?
**************
That last line actually made me shudder because it the kind of comment we heard out of North Mayo for the last couple of years by people who simply refused to listen to any facts, reason or unbaised reports.
******************
Now that is ridiculous. We are in the planning stage of a huge infrastructure project and as local residents we are allowed to voice any concerns we have with the proposals and criticise any plans which will impact on our standard of living.
Of course you are right in suggesting it has to be an overall view and that the metro will benefit a great number of people, locals alike, but as we will be facing the greatest impact during constructing and afterwards with the finished design then it is up to us to ensure that we make the RPA listen to our concerns and not provide the cheapest option which may or may not severely impact our living conditions.
As you are aware now legislation has been introduced which will speed up the planning process for large infrastructure projects and there is a standard appeal process incorporated. This process will have a set time schedule and the outcome will be final, I am not looking to drag it out any longer than this but the necessary time is required to be spent on the design issues i.e. now.
Of course you will always have people objecting to change and I have no problem with that, sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong but they have the right to object and to have a reply on the concerns they raise and if possible allowed to contribute to the design.
The objections to the elevated structure I believe are totally warranted and raise very valid points, these must be addressed and to be fair I believe they are. The final design solution will not be to everyone’s satisfaction and compromises must be made on all sides but that does not mean substandard, badly designed or cheap solution must be accepted
Nigel Fitzgricer
16-01-2007, 14:15
I went to many Discos in the sheds, Nige, and we stored our bonfire stuff there as well. I also used to hide my crossbow there away from my folks, but that's for another thread.
Yeah, I know, I know... 81st CBSI troop Sillogue Road. Been there, done that got the merit badge for starting a fire by burning sofas. I think I was even a member of the Communist Youth Group in one of them as well trying to get the posters of Marxs and Engles to stay on the condensation-filled walls with capitalist Blu-Tac. Oh, I went to 'The Grove' in Fairview as soon as I decided to womanise my way up the social ladder instead as soon as I realised 'Das Kapital' was a load of rubbish. (I can see some demented lunatic filing the above paragraph for his dossier on me for future release on IRN or Boards.ie as proof that my stance on the Burma Road are not to be listened to.)
Anyways...
Back to the point I was making. The line can be elevated through Ballymun and still be right. This is not a major issue.
Underground, I agree would be better, but not if it adds years to the project and remember this could by default add years also to the Interconnector and MetroWest as well. So we are playing for much higher stakes here than just MetroNorth as well.
I also suspect, that half the reason the stations in Ballymun are being elevated is tso the Skangers and Hoodies can't cause mayhem in them as they won't be hidden undergroud. I think this is a good, intelligent idea and I am not insulted by this as I hate Skangers and Hoodies as well. The viaduct the RPA are putting up is not that horrible, nor will be obscuring any views which anybody would miss.
Using terms "as long as it takes" is a recipe for years and years of delays and chances are the elevated option will still get built at the end of the circus - so it'll be all for nothing and the country as a whole will be denied a vital rail link to it's busiest airport for years when it could have been in service - not to mention the knock on effects this could have on the Interconnector and MetroWest in terms of delays. Not good.
Thomas J Stamp
16-01-2007, 15:19
It appears to be one stop only in Ballymun, at the Civic Plaza, according the RPA document.
The issue is cost, and cost alone. If underground is being used for the nice areas of middle class Dublin then it should be used for Ballymun as well, otherwise put the entire thing on stilts.
It is the same old story, but instead of Dublin Corporation we now have the RPA.
You will get Hoodies, Skangers or whatever delinquents are called when it is built, anywhere, not a valid reason for going on stilts, is it?
The viaduct the RPA are putting up is not that horrible, nor will be obscuring any views which anybody would miss.
You dont know that, the only guide they have given is the photgraph i have hyperlinked above, and it is horrible. As you can see there are plenty of places underneath there for your Skangers and Hoodies to congregate at night under the warm orange glow of a neon street light.
As for it having a knock on effect on other areas, not neccessarilty. Once it is agreed the from it'll take an appropriate time frame will be given and you can work form that.
Putting it on stilts or hanging the fecking thing from balloons could equally get into overruns.
Derek Wheeler
16-01-2007, 23:41
Platform 11 representatives met with the RPA and they willingly revealed the route and proposed engineering specs for Metro North before they were made public. We revealed the Ballymun side of things in the first post of this thread as follows and based on my notes from the meeting.
# DCU
Station in shallow cutting, so may be unmanned. Line continues in shallow cutting, under Collins Avenue and then at grade along the central median of current road through Ballymun.
# Ballymun
RPA are currently working with Ballymun redevelopment on station location and exact route through the centre of Ballymun. Line will run along the east side of existing link road to M50.
There will be no elevated metro through Ballymun. So lads, I suggest you condense your discussion to the pros and cons of "at grade" through Ballymun or "underground" through Ballymun. All this talk of an elevated metro is old hat and disappeared from the radar shortly after the public consultation phase.
And by the way, make the discussion quick as all infrastructural topics are being moved to the members section.
Thomas J Stamp
17-01-2007, 09:36
There will be no elevated metro through Ballymun.
Problem is that it is still an option according to the document issued by the RPA yesterday on their website, so as they havent rules it out we have to discuss it.
And by the way, make the discussion quick as all infrastructural topics are being moved to the members section.
Correct, this here thread will be departing for the members section today.
Thomas J Stamp
17-01-2007, 14:17
We are seeking clarification from the RPA re this. The appearance on their site of stilts goes against what they said to us.
Looking at the link and also Google Earth it seems to be that they have used incorrect terminology to describe the route so far.
Using the pink line on Google Earth as a guide it appears that the route must be underground as far as the ESB buildings (opp the Library) and not cut and cover from DCU ( there are two housing estates in the way) where a TBM must come out (or in). The additional costs for going underground to Santry Ave cannot be that much.
It also appears that the DCU stop is a looong way away from the current buildings.
Going by what the RPA say, no matter what method is used, they must come out of the ground at the Junction of Ballymun Road/Glasnevin Avenue and approach it from the south east as they mention going under Colins Avenue. This suggests the line on Google Earth is wrong (dont know who did it) and further suggests that they must tunnel under Albert College Estate.
This makes no sense at all if they refuse to tunnel further.
Brian Condron
17-01-2007, 14:42
We are seeking clarification from the RPA re this. The appearance on their site of stilts goes against what they said to us.
Call me cynical but I get the impression that at a lot of public consulations there is a sacrificial option, one that the public will turn down outright. So it's easier to get the other options through, ie. cut and cover will be a pain being built, but at least it will be hidden on completion. Not like that "stilts" option.
EDIT: Man, do I make some stupid spelling mistakes
Using the pink line on Google Earth as a guide it appears that the route must be underground as far as the ESB buildings (opp the Library) and not cut and cover from DCU ( there are two housing estates in the way) where a TBM must come out (or in). The additional costs for going underground to Santry Ave cannot be that much.
they must come out of the ground at the Junction of Ballymun Road/Glasnevin Avenue and approach it from the south east as they mention going under Colins Avenue. This suggests the line on Google Earth is wrong (dont know who did it) and further suggests that they must tunnel under Albert College Estate.
This makes no sense at all if they refuse to tunnel further.
Thomas, it would be possible to do a cut and cover from the DCU stop right into ballymun. The TBM can tunnel in/at in Hamsted park, travel from there into the central meridian of ballymun road at the scout hall and then traverse the collins rado/ ballymun road/ glasnevin ave junction. In terms of bringing the tunnel up in a 300m radius of the junction this would be the only suitable open space.
Can you post the link to the "pink line in google earth" as i'd like to have a look
ta
Thomas J Stamp
17-01-2007, 17:30
Thomas, it would be possible to do a cut and cover from the DCU stop right into ballymun. The TBM can tunnel in/at in Hamsted park, travel from there into the central meridian of ballymun road at the scout hall and then traverse the collins rado/ ballymun road/ glasnevin ave junction. In terms of bringing the tunnel up in a 300m radius of the junction this would be the only suitable open space.
Can you post the link to the "pink line in google earth" as i'd like to have a look
ta
Yes, sure, if it werent for that fact that the RPA keep saying that the trams will emergre from underneath Collins Avenue at Stormonstown house, they dont say the trams will emerge at Hampstead.
"Pink line":
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/5627/pinklinedn2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Navan Junction
17-01-2007, 18:57
I don't want to sound like I don't understand the concerns, but I'd be careful about making too much of an issue about this.
A Metro would really be the making of Ballymun - it's not long since that brutal roundabout with banger buses running around it was the main feature on that road.
Think of Dominc Hannigan and his Ratoath deviation - all of a sudden a certain route was up in the air, and is one of the main excuses avoiding moving the project along at any pace.
Question is would a viaduct really be worth the project being delayed (and possibly mothballed if there is an economic downturn)?
Honestly speaking, I could see myself and others from Meath using it btw, crazy as that may sound - 17 mins to Stephen's Green from anywhere along the M50 is nothing to be sneezed at..
Lots of the Amsterdam Metro is elevated and much of it built quiet recently
The new north south line thru the city centre is being built by cut & cover and is causing Huge disruption in the City and putting everyone off ever building another metro line
Lots of the Amsterdam Metro is elevated and much of it built quiet recently
The new north south line thru the city centre is being built by cut & cover and is causing Huge disruption in the City and putting everyone off ever building another metro line
A lot of the A'dam metro also runs at grade, intersecting with roads. Not such a big deal. Couldn't we do this in Ballymun?
Nigel Fitzgricer
18-01-2007, 18:16
They do things correctly in Holland. They do not have the "East Glasnevin" brigade either which helps a lot too.
I reckon this 11th hour rush to NIMBYise MetroNorth we are looking at another 5 years on both the Interconnector and Navan Rail link.
I'll go back to my crayons, far more based on reality than some of NIMBY-for-the-sake-of-it rubbish posted on this thread in recent days.
Navan Junction
02-02-2007, 08:21
Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, Fri, Feb 02, 2007
Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has said major projects in Transport 21, including the proposed new metros for Dublin, are to undergo a new evaluation process to be set up by Government.
Addressing the annual dinner of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport in Dublin last night, Mr Cullen responded to criticism from Opposition politicians and economic commentators that the financial case for some multimillion-euro projects, particularly metro west, had not been established.
Mr Cullen said current methods to evaluate projects costing more than €30 million "will be put on a more structured basis". He revealed a tender competition is currently under way to select consultants to undertake an annual audit of major schemes, assessing their compliance with Department of Finance guidelines and "particularly review their capital appraisals or business cases".
The auditing process will be overseen by a new Transport 21 monitoring group drawn from the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance, Environment and Transport, as well as the National Development Finance Agency. The practice of also seeking an independent review of the business case put forward by agencies, such as the Railway Procurement Agency and Iarnród Éireann, will continue, he said.
On the subject of value for money, Mr Cullen said the National Roads Authority had brought in 14 schemes last year, of which 11 were under budget. Six of the projects were ahead of schedule and six were on schedule.
The value of the schemes currently under way is more than €4 billion and Mr Cullen insisted the revised target for the completion of the major roads from Dublin to the Border and the regional cities would be completed by the revised timetable of 2010.
© 2007 The Irish Times
Ronald Binge
02-02-2007, 09:13
This is code for "The Department of Finance has told us to put the brakes on these projects."
Stage Two of the Delayment Project will be either a private bus operator claiming that they can do the Airport run in ten minutes via the Port Tunnel or someone producing a colourdey map to the Irish Independent and claiming that they can build a surface line from Broadstone to the Airport in six months.
;)
Colm Donoghue
02-02-2007, 09:19
So instead of tendering for construction of the metro, they're gonna tender for someone to do a cost benefit analysis that has "Already been done but it's a secret"
I'd like to tender for the burmah road CBA....
Navan Junction
02-02-2007, 09:37
Mr Cullen responded to criticism from Opposition politicians and economic commentators
Nope, they let it come back negative and blame the opposition
Thomas J Stamp
02-02-2007, 10:28
This is rather interesting. Under the NDP's there is a fairly advanced form of review and observation of the current costs and capital costs under the programmes.
But what Minister Cullen is looking at here is totally different, the devil being in the details:
the financial case for some multimillion-euro projects, particularly metro west, had not been established.
Mr Cullen said current methods to evaluate projects costing more than €30 million "will be put on a more structured basis".
I've bolded the interesting bits. In other words, this is test to see if these projects (and there is no list of them, apart from Metro West) will go ahead AT ALL. Now, how do you put forward a financial case in relation to mass-transit public transport?
The scope of the consultants remit; the criteria they will be allowed to employ(and instestingly enough the choice of consultants) will tell all.
Colm Moore
04-02-2007, 11:50
Stage Two of the Delayment Project will be either a private bus operator claiming that they can do the Airport run in ten minutes via the Port Tunnel Sure, its easy getting the grannies down the service stairs in Marino, but getting them back up without an elevator .... ;)
Sorry if I'm missing something .... but .... on the third page of posts someone mentions that there's no way that the metro will be extended to Donabate to link with the new DART station (we live in hope!). Why is it not possible coz most of the politicians - local and general - all maintain that they are activiely compaigning for it. Is that just a line they're spinning?
I'd appreciate your comments.
Mark Gleeson
17-02-2007, 18:44
At a recent Fingal CC council meeting a motion to protect an alignment from Lissenhall to Donabate was defeated.
Context on this is
DART to Balbriggan is in T21
Funds to study a metro link from Metro North to Howth Junction/New station Grange Rd are in T21
RPA are not actively pursuing anything north of Lissenhall, they are looking at the Howth Junction thing, the southern half of Metro West and Luas to Finglas, they might not be listed in T21 but they are there
Our key concern is actually getting that DART to Balbriggan done and that doesn't look so positive
dowlingm
20-02-2007, 16:01
But that's going to be a Ballymun-Howth Junction MetroWest extension right? Not an insane MetroNorth branch which would replicate the conflicts of DART-Howth?
Should go the whole bloody hog and regauge Howth to Metro. No 0-change to An Lar? True, but 0-change to Ballymun's just as good :)
Mark Gleeson
20-02-2007, 16:05
That sounded good but the Metro West bit is looking like grange road not Howth Junction
That sounded good but the Metro West bit is looking like grange road not Howth Junction
That's a pity. HJ would, in that situation, have Dart to Malahide, Dart to Howth, Suburban to Drogheda and an orbital bus link as well as Metro West.
dowlingm
21-02-2007, 21:43
If metro 24hr? Because even if it isn't initially, the capability for single line operation (for maintenance) should be in from day 1. In Toronto we won't see that till 2015 or something. At the moment the system is down 0200-0600 (0900 Sundays)
Mark Gleeson
21-02-2007, 21:44
It was mentioned somewhere that it can be 24 hour legally (as per Luas) but there will be a maintenance zone in the early morning
shamrockmetro
11-11-2007, 14:33
The members only part of the platform 11 site has plans of the Ballymun and O'Connell Street stops. The most stricking thing in the latter case is just how big it is, the southern entrances are by the Harp building and the northern ones a block north of the bridge. The line is a long way underground.
Can any of you fill me in or email this and any other information you have of architectural merit? or email it
What would you bet the ticket price would be??? express sounds expensive
in many other cities in europe it is around 2 euro fully underground and longer than 17km by miles...
Who is going to win the bid?
Some of these companies in different groups have very close links in other countries.... something to be mindful of.... ex or???
some old metro designs tell me what you think?
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6398
shamrockmetro
11-11-2007, 14:34
http://mic-ro.com/metro/metroart.html
i presume everyone has already seen this in the members section (don't know if ye all have, am not a full member:)) http://www.iei.ie/uploads/Files/Sect...R%20DUBLIN.PDF
there are draft architectural plans for MetroN already with pics in this pdf
(EDIT) think the link here's a dud, scroll down this page off archiseek and the links in one of the postshttp://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3679&page=8
Curious with this new Swords Express Bus doing the Pavilion in Swords to City Center in 30-35 Minutes how does that compare to what the Metro would offer? Does the government have the inter-connector higher up the priority scale than the metro or where does the Metro sit on the list of projects?
Colm Donoghue
28-11-2007, 20:26
The Swords express coach has about 16 services each way a day, metro can do that per hour.
metro goes to St Stephen's Green from Lissenhall
Metro is fully accessible, swords express isn't afaik
swords bus stops at about 8pm, metro will be running for about 18 hours per day
The Frequency of any service would vary depeinding on the popularity, you also have DB running buses from the airport. Anyway not advocating a replacement of the Metro but curious to know what the time difference is from O'connell bridge to Swords via Metro, would it be 20 minutes on the metro or longer?
Yep Colm you're right on access the buses I think are all high step coach type.
Mark Gleeson
29-11-2007, 10:16
Swords (Lissenhall P&R) to the Green is something like 24 minutes
Peter FitzPatrick
29-11-2007, 11:11
What kind of speed will metro travel at ? i'm guessing not more than 80 or 100k ?
I think Belinstown to SSG will be nearer 30 mins (Including Estury stop dwell). Swords to SSG 25 mins and Airport to SSG about 20 mins. The Parnell stop and Drumcondra deviation have added a few mins while the Ballymun C&C has probably lost a few.
Source: RPA.ie
Q. What is the journey time to the airport and to Swords?
A. The journey time from the airport to the St. Stephen’s Green terminus is likely to be under 20 minutes. The end to end journey time from Lissenhall to St. Stephen’s Green is likely to be around 30 minutes.
I think they are going for 80kmph capable - anymore than that is futile give the station spacings. Luas is currently 70kmph.
Does anyone know what system this picture is taken from?
http://www.transport21.ie/PROJECTS/METRO_-_LUAS/Metro_North.html
Cheers
Don't know Mark. I don't recognise it. It's heavy rail with 3rd rail so that discounts Germany as I'd recognise any of the Munich/Berlin etc. systems using 3rd rail though I haven't used all the overhead premetro systems there.
It strikes me as possibly an American system. :confused:
Mark Gleeson
29-11-2007, 15:20
Its side 3rd rail system
It looks european, note the typically european analog clock. Probably Sweden, Denmark, Norway
Brian Condron
29-11-2007, 15:53
Its side 3rd rail system
It looks european, note the typically european analog clock. Probably Sweden, Denmark, Norway
It's not Norway anyway. Well at least it's not Oslo, Bergen or Trondheim. I don't think any of the other cities have rapit transit anyway, and the NSB railway is all overhead lines.
Thomas J Stamp
29-11-2007, 16:11
if this becomes "where is this" mark3 there will be trouble.
Mark Gleeson
29-11-2007, 16:25
Understood number 1
I don't think it's Scandinavian at all. I don't think it's an underground station either. Elevated or at grade by the looks of it. Seems to be quite a big interchange station.
It's Rotterdam (http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/rot/rotterdam.htm)!
http://www.scoutcentrumrotterdam.nl/image/Metro1-RO-041102.jpg
if this becomes "where is this" mark3 there will be trouble.
Yes mother! :D
Well done Philip. Ive been there a few times but never used the metro. I couldnt find it, well done.
Thomas J Stamp
29-11-2007, 17:09
It's Rotterdam (http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/rot/rotterdam.htm)!
any chance you could maker that pic bigger, can hardly see it
.....hang on I'll find the zoom button her somewhere......
weehamster
03-12-2007, 19:29
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1203/metro.html
Dublin business leaders are warning that construction works for the Metro North could put up to 5,000 jobs at risk.
But the Rail Procurement Agency says it will be drawing up a management plan to minimise disruption before the issue goes before An Bord Pleanála next year.
The Dublin City Centre Business Association claims people do not realise the extent of the disruption due from Metro North.
Advertisement
It cites the fact that O'Connell Street will be dug up for 18 months and up to 200 trucks a day will be taking soil from the tunnel.
DCBA wants the RPA to stick to tunnelling instead of cut and cover and to consider a stop on Marlborough Street instead of two subway stations in the O'Connell Street area.
The RPA says it will consider tunnelling as much as it can but says the present route is the best available.
The RPA points out that An Bord Pleanála is due to consider the issue next March.
Yawn! Here we go again :rolleyes:
Was it not Dublin business leaders who asked and got Mary O'Rourke to separated the Luas into 2 separate lines? We now know that was a bad idea.
The stop they want at Marlborough Street is at the Dept of Education. This would defeat the reason for the move of the Metro stop from the Gresham to O'Connell Bridge, which is to integrate the Metro line with the Luas Red Line and stop transfers of around a half of a kilometer, dragging their suitcases, possible through pouring rain heading to and from the airport.
Also we would have to build an extra stop at Westmorland Street to fill the gap so the 1 station instead of 2 is a lame argument.
If the line went up Marlborough Street, does that mean that the line would have to go under Trinity College? If so, thats a no no.
We heard the same moan and groans from the Luas construction, all doom and gloom, but I wonder how much since the opening has the Luas helped to increased their profits by?
But the bit that really annoys me is where they get the figure of 5000 jobs from. I bet you it won't cost a single job. I wonder how many jobs(or is that profits) were lost due to the terrible traffic congestion we currently have?
It looks like another scare tactic to me. :mad:
Mark Gleeson
04-12-2007, 09:56
With the exception of the Abbey Street O'Connell Bridge section there won't be any significant metro works on O'Connell Street
The station under the Liffey is to be mined
So what on earth are they talking about?
Metro plans will not be altered
Olivia Kelly
The Railway Procurement Agency has said it will not consider changing its plans for the Metro North despite claims from Dublin businesses that its construction in O'Connell Street will cost up to 5,000 jobs.
The Dublin City Business Association has urged the agency to abandon plans for two underground stops in O'Connell Street in favour of one stop at Marlborough Street under the Department of Education buildings.
The authority said it is confident that the proposed route and selection of stops is correct and it intends to make an application to An Bord Pleanála in the coming months based on these plans.
The agency is proposing to locate one stop at O'Connell Bridge and another at Parnell Square.
The association's chief executive, Tom Coffey, said this will cause massive disruption to the street over a four-year period and could cost up to 5,000 jobs.
"When the Luas was constructed along Abbey Street through O'Connell Street some 50 to 60 jobs were lost.
"This is going to take four years and, because they are using cut and cover construction, basically digging down from the surface, O'Connell Street will be completely unusable."
Locating stations in O'Connell Street, as opposed to just digging underneath the street to create the tunnel for the metro, would mean that there will be construction at street level, which would mean buses would have to be removed from the street.
"This is a seriously primitive engineering option for the city's main street.
"We are in favour of the metro, and we are in favour of the route but all we want is for it to be done in such a fashion that is does not take out all of the road space, it doesn't take out all of the bus space and doesn't remove the footpath," Mr Coffey said.
The agency said it would not be revisiting its selection of station sites. The RPA had engaged in a series of meetings with the DCBA as well as other stakeholders and the public in drafting its plans for the metro, agency spokesman Tom Manning said.
Plans had been put in place to keep disruption to a minimum and there was no suggestion that O'Connell Street would be a building site for four years, he said.
"There is going to be a traffic management plan in place. It is our objective to ensure that the centre of the city keeps open for business. The full construction phase will take four years but no one section will be disrupted for that long." Traders would benefit from additional "foot-fall", Mr Manning said.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1204/1196713197287.html
© 2007 The Irish Times
Couldn't help thinking when I read this article the situation with the Luas works on Harcourt Street and the traders giving out about all the disruption and how it would effect their business.
Then when the line is finally built, I hear terms like it was "Christmas in March" for these same people with the ability of people along the line to get into town to be the good consumers they are. This was before the Dundrum Town Centre was built of course.
A bit of short term pain for 100 years of gain (I hope)
Scaremongering bull****. I wonder has the Irish Times as a whole bought into Frank McDonald's silly anti-metro stance.
From what is reputed to be a respected broadsheet, i find it remarkable that Ms Kelly couldnt take the few minutes needed to conduct proper research before writing this claptrap. A simple visit to the RPA website would show that the city centre part of the Metro line will be tunnelled using TBM's, not by cut and cover.
A piece of downright nonsense
I don't see why any sort of digging on O'Connell St would have to disrupt bus traffic. With this wide a street, all surface traffic can be diverted to one side, the other one dug up and then the procedure repeated for the other half. This has been done plenty of times in other cities and really isn't rocket science.
Where does the idea come from that when building a metro, the entire stretch starting at one terminus and ending at the other will be one huge dig over years and years? Haven't people just witnessed the harbor tunnel go in without 5km worth of buildings being knocked down and the whole stretch getting dug up?
Aphfaneire
08-12-2007, 13:16
Understood number 1
If he's number 1, who's Picard:D ?
On a more metro related topic. When are they going to start ripping up the city? Its "supposed" to have started but they have delayed it due to "studies" on traffic management and integration of the work at the same time as the luas so as to decrease the disruption to about 5 years instead of eternity.:rolleyes:
I would love to see this done by someone compident, after all if we outsourced all of these projects half them would be under construction by now, hell we would probably allready be able to get a luas to the point and have free flow junctions on the m50, but no we have to use irish companies.:confused:
No one ever learns lessons from the past here do they, the luas green line could have been a metro, hell we could have built all the luas lines we were promised, but the government are just BLEH, and wouldnt do anything right.
Thats right i said BLEH!:p
shamrockmetro
12-01-2008, 19:23
has anyone seen that commercial on tv with butterflies??? for the RPA or CIE
your thoughts??? is cut and fill cheaper??? how much money and time would this save? and allow for better stations?
R.E shamrockmetro
Looks to me to be in the perfect place & central wise
Aphfaneire
16-01-2008, 20:00
IS there still no information on the final route or station layouts?
Is it too late to bully the a-holes to build a real metro system and stop D!cking us around with this underground tram milarcky?:confused:
In an ideal world, they would have announced the project with T21 and started ripping the whole city up within a few months and had it all planed out to have EVERTHING complete at the same time. Sort of a Boston Big dig thing, but hopefully not over budget and full of shoddy workmanship. Ok maybe not the Big Dig, more of an "Olympics is coming to town" kind of building frenzy. But this is Ireland, not an Ideal world:rolleyes:
luasifer
16-01-2008, 23:31
The Boston Big Dig is surely not a good example to give as a suggestion of how something should be done. This project was 10billion dollars(including inflation adjustments) overbudget and years late.
This is an exact example of what we should not do. Having spent time in Boston this project also caused huge amounts of contraversy amongst the cities residents whose taxes paid for it - not to mention the one motorist who paid for the shoddy work with their life when the roof collapsed on them
The Big Dig ... that thing went on for a decade or two, came in years late and was a financial black hole. And yes, at least one motorist paid the ultimate price for some crappy construction work in the tunnels. I'll take Bertie's and FFs mindless dithering over that any day.
Colm Donoghue
17-01-2008, 23:03
Sevilla Metro started in '99 still not open
http://www.metrodesevilla.net/ says
"Página en construcción"
These are the fast movers we are always compared to as being slow.
Derek Wheeler
18-01-2008, 00:05
The Big Dig ... that thing went on for a decade or two, came in years late and was a financial black hole. And yes, at least one motorist paid the ultimate price for some crappy construction work in the tunnels. I'll take Bertie's and FFs mindless dithering over that any day.
You may be doing the big dig a disservice. Yes it was way over budget. Yes a motorist paid with their life. But it was unprecedented and has improved Boston and its environs no end. Many books have been written and many TV documentaries made about it. Its a fully transparent project. Warts and all. But the results are astounding.
No pain, no gain. Dublin is in the mickey mouse factor compared to it. Metro North is a pea to the big digs' pumpkin. The philosophy is right, but the comparison is wrong.
Derek Wheeler
18-01-2008, 00:10
Sevilla Metro started in '99 still not open
http://www.metrodesevilla.net/ says
"Página en construcción"
These are the fast movers we are always compared to as being slow.
**** happens and it doesn't mean that excuses can be made for the "Irish angle". Madrid faired better. Ireland is still unmercifully overpriced and interferred with beyond reason. Germany and France do this thing all the time. We have overloaded the entire experience. Even the communists do it better.
Aphfaneire
18-01-2008, 19:26
**** happens and it doesn't mean that excuses can be made for the "Irish angle". Madrid faired better. Ireland is still unmercifully overpriced and interferred with beyond reason. Germany and France do this thing all the time. We have overloaded the entire experience. Even the communists do it better.
Well Mosco's beutiful subway was rebuilt by the war widow's in the 50's, so good work for hundreds of thousands of slaves instead of a building company.:D
I apologise for the big dig comparison, but it is a huge project that although disasterous got results. Maybe my idea of doing all dublin needs at once was a tad over zealous as it would mean a lot more opertunity for shoddy work and tax wastage. But either way we need all of it, every good idea should be built not consulted, we need relief soon, if we dont start building all of this within 10 years, the city will be impossible to commute too and decentralisation might actually happen, perish the thought!:confused:
shamrockmetro
19-01-2008, 11:23
I just hope they try and have some irish real architecture in the metro...
shamrockmetro
19-01-2008, 11:28
They have 185 billion to spend from the eu...
so there are no excuses...
Colm Moore
21-01-2008, 22:29
Well Mosco's beutiful subway was rebuilt by the war widow's in the 50's, so good work for hundreds of thousands of slaves instead of a building company.:D Actually, Moscow is quite good. The don't go off on hair brained, mad cap plans or designs. They stick to the basics and do some tailoring to give each station an individuality within a theme. They add a couple of stations per year, making sure the skills are kept together and there is no boom and bust. Everything is tried and trusted, not (half-)invented on the fly.
I just hope they try and have some irish real architecture in the metro...No, please no. No offence intended and this isn't my usual choice of language, but f**k architecture.
What is needed is functionality. Metro, like anything else, needs to work. It needs to move people from where they are to where they want to go. Prompty, quickly and safely. Anything else is secondary.
It would be nice if the system made money. It would be nice if it could be SFE*. It would be nice to use Irish designs and Irish people. But if it doesn't do its job, it just a very expensive hole in the ground.
My experience in the Irish construction industry since 1990 has been form over function. "It looks nice", but then it falls off after 6 weeks. Why? Bad workmanship? No, it was a s**t design. Ceiling too low over the stairs? Bad design. Forgot the client wants air conditioning? Bad design. Leaky wall? Bad design. Cost over run? Guess what, bad design.
Now the Germans they keep the shiny stuff to the minimum, some stations are even grimey, but they are tidy, with no litter, no clutter, no fancy stuff that ... breaks. But the trains run on time. Thats the important bit.
* Shiny front end (http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/national_commuter_fleet_investment.asp).
cut and fill
That "cut and fill" you propose is an interesting way to build a metro. With "cut and cover", you dig a hole, put a tunnel in and cover it up with a bit of soil. In your "cut and fill" scenario, I guess you dig a hole... and fill it back up. Brilliant way to save the money otherwise spent on the tunnel and all :).
constellation
25-01-2008, 20:21
Forgive me for going way off topic. But that attached picture is a bit random.
Mark Gleeson
25-01-2008, 21:13
Post deleted
Thomas J Stamp
26-01-2008, 00:29
shamrockmetro banned for a week and if I get my way it'll be for ever.
Thomas J Stamp
28-01-2008, 13:39
Got my wish.
Aphfaneire
31-01-2008, 17:49
Actually, Moscow is quite good. The don't go off on hair brained, mad cap plans or designs. They stick to the basics and do some tailoring to give each station an individuality within a theme. They add a couple of stations per year, making sure the skills are kept together and there is no boom and bust. Everything is tried and trusted, not (half-)invented on the fly.
No, please no. No offence intended and this isn't my usual choice of language, but f**k architecture.
What is needed is functionality. Metro, like anything else, needs to work. It needs to move people from where they are to where they want to go. Prompty, quickly and safely. Anything else is secondary.
It would be nice if the system made money. It would be nice if it could be SFE*. It would be nice to use Irish designs and Irish people. But if it doesn't do its job, it just a very expensive hole in the ground.
My experience in the Irish construction industry since 1990 has been form over function. "It looks nice", but then it falls off after 6 weeks. Why? Bad workmanship? No, it was a s**t design. Ceiling too low over the stairs? Bad design. Forgot the client wants air conditioning? Bad design. Leaky wall? Bad design. Cost over run? Guess what, bad design.
Now the Germans they keep the shiny stuff to the minimum, some stations are even grimey, but they are tidy, with no litter, no clutter, no fancy stuff that ... breaks. But the trains run on time. Thats the important bit.
* Shiny front end (http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/national_commuter_fleet_investment.asp).
Sometimes it can be both:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Park_railway_station%2C_Sydney
A beautiful station in sydney that use's the spanish soloution in its layout and is part of a balloon loop track wise. If only we could build things like that.
Also whats with the Amiens street exit of connolly being closed several times, i know its been gone for years, but it would be smart to have more exits, and possibly a more direct one to the IFSC, possibly underground with travelators.:confused:
Also when will they design the St Stephens green station. We're talking about 3 services at the same stop. An overground tram, a "ight-metro" underground, and a commuter line under that.
The service interchanges and direct exits must be very complicated to design, and also there should be several platforms for both the metro and inter-connector. The metro may be expanded in future so it should have 3 to 4 platforms to allow a run through tunnel and still be able to keep airport/swords to st stephens green.:rolleyes:
[...] so it should have 3 to 4 platforms to allow a run through tunnel and still be able to keep airport/swords to st stephens green.
Riiight... as if that's not gonna happen. They will build two platforms and if the metro is ever extended, everyone in charge will be like "if only we had thought of this earlier".
In Germany, extra platforms/tunnels are often built. There even is a term for this - "Bauvorleistung" ("advance construction"). There are countless examples of metro stations having additional levels that are closed off for now but will be used when a planned line is added. Similarly, tunnels are sometimes put in below buildings or motorways as they are constructed so that no dangerous boring underneath these structures will be required in the future. Sometimes, plans change and the tunnels are left to rot. On average though, it pays off to think ahead.
Aphfaneire
31-01-2008, 18:12
Riiight... as if that's not gonna happen. They will build two platforms and if the metro is ever extended, everyone in charge will be like "if only we had thought of this earlier".
In Germany, extra platforms/tunnels are often built. There even is a term for this - "Bauvorleistung" ("advance construction"). There are countless examples of metro stations having additional levels that are closed off for now but will be used when a planned line is added. Similarly, tunnels are sometimes put in below buildings or motorways as they are constructed so that no dangerous boring underneath these structures will be required in the future. Sometimes, plans change and the tunnels are left to rot. On average though, it pays off to think ahead.
The same has been done in New York many times.
But with additional platforms you could leave trains or trams, whatever the genious's decide on, will allow them to send more services from the terminus all the time. The Main platform will let people off, and people could have been loading another train else where and that train can leave straight away.
Ireland should build in advance, the luas needed it, but no they left it as it is. No metro/train all the way to sandyford.
Another cost-cutting technique I have seen a lot with metros is shortening platforms. Planners often point to the short trains/trams scheduled to run initially and say that much longer platforms aren't needed. Of course, as the metro gains in popularity and ridership increases, trains are extended and quickly hit the maximal platform length. Here, again, planning ahead really pays off. Extending at-grade platforms is a pain. Extending underground platforms is pretty much impossible and needlessly cripples a metro's capacity because someone figured they could save a few €. I'm not saying this is happening with Metro North right now, but it's something to watch out for.
Aphfaneire
31-01-2008, 18:27
Another cost-cutting technique I have seen a lot with metros is shortening platforms. Planners often point to the short trains/trams scheduled to run initially and say that much longer platforms aren't needed. Of course, as the metro gains in popularity and ridership increases, trains are extended and quickly hit the maximal platform length. Here, again, planning ahead really pays off. Extending at-grade platforms is a pain. Extending underground platforms is pretty much impossible and needlessly cripples a metro's capacity because someone figured they could save a few €. I'm not saying this is happening with Metro North right now, but it's something to watch out for.
I hear you. After all, if the metro is segregatted, and at a normal gauge, then it could be very easy to upgrade to a proper metro in future. However this could only be done if space is provided in the origional construction so as to save A LOT of money later on.
Just imagine a world where they built it to the size needed for a train, but built it to take their hybrid tram's first and then allowed for minor changes to allow a real service when someone else wants to spend the money needed to provid a fully functioning proper service.:eek:
James Shields
01-02-2008, 13:23
The RPA won't admit we influenced the design, but when the initial Metro specs were released, with short platforms (60m, I think), P11 (as RUI was then called) submitted a lenghty submission. Our caculations (or Mark's to be precise) showed that even at 90 second frequencies the capacity would be insufficient for projected population growth. The next Metro specs included most of our recomendations, including 90m platforms. Coincidence? I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
James Shields
01-02-2008, 13:26
I just hope they try and have some irish real architecture in the metro...
What on Earth is "real" Irish architecture? Do you want corbelling on the tunnel roofs?
What on Earth is "real" Irish architecture?
Looking at most of Dublin's center, I'd say it's anything that is Georgian. How about station walls that look like Georgian facades? And steam trams to complement the picture?
Thomas J Stamp
01-02-2008, 14:00
Looking at most of Dublin's center, I'd say it's anything that is Georgian. How about station walls that look like Georgian facades? And steam trams to complement the picture?
thats british.
anything horrible from the 60's is irish
What on Earth is "real" Irish architecture? Do you want corbelling on the tunnel roofs?
You have to read this (http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6398&highlight=shamrockmetro) to understand.
Thomas J Stamp
01-02-2008, 14:10
You have to read this (http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6398&highlight=shamrockmetro) to understand.
why havent they banned him over there? unless its an admins piss-take
who cares anyway, marksodov or however its spelt is doing a similar thing on boards. Same WUM?
James Shields
05-02-2008, 12:33
Frankly, I don't care what it looks ike as long as it works, runs on time, and gets me to my destination quickly. Yes, I hope the result will look nice, but that doesn't mean we need silly shaped tunnels. Nobody would be able to see they were in a bloody shamrock anyway. We don't need a "gold plated solution" as Michael O'Leary would say.
This is a rail forum, and our concern is rails. You want architecture, stick to Archeire.
I notice the tender documentation has gone out to the various consortia. Does anyone know are there any particular advantages / disadvantages to any of the groups? Full list of bidding groups on the second page of this press release (http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=722). Having realised how profitable LUAS is, I see Veolia is a contender.
Colm Moore
24-05-2008, 22:58
Having realised how profitable LUAS is, I see Veolia is a contender.But how profitable is Luas for Veolia? Fair enough there doesn't seem to be any shenanigans going that would indicate such, but Veoila could be losing their shirt on Luas for all we know.
The real money on Metro North will be made or lost on the capital side, not the operations side.
Mark Hennessy
10-07-2008, 08:57
Metro Open Days next week.
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/MN%20OpenDays%20LeafletJuly08.pdf
Extract from the article on the cutbacks In todays Independent
Other measures announced yesterday included a €20m saving in the Department of Transport on capital projects. Some €13m will be saved under the Regional Airports budget, while another €7m will be yielded from the slow progress in purchasing sites for the Metro North project.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/brace-yourselves-for-more-warns-an-underfire-cowen-1430513.html
Colm Moore
12-07-2008, 18:02
Thats a change in cashflow, not a cutback / saving.
Mark Hennessy
03-08-2008, 12:29
Metro North line 'could close down city and cost €8bn'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/aug/03/metro-north-line-could-close-down-city-and-cost-8b/
Thomas J Stamp
03-08-2008, 12:35
how government works part 22334
1. Soften up public support for a project you want to ditch
2. Tell public how much money you havent got
3. Produce pie in the sky costings for the project, the higher the better
4. Show lots of pics of babys in incubaters
haven't got to point 4 yes, but watch the letters pages in the papers over the next few weeks...............
Metro North line 'could close down city and cost €8bn'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/aug/03/metro-north-line-could-close-down-city-and-cost-8b/
*vent*
Mark Gleeson
03-08-2008, 12:42
Actually its going to cost us nothing until it actually carries a passenger
Capital costs remain a mystery but they are in the 2.5-3 billion range and you do get a huge amount of concrete for that
Much as we have problems with the Metro we never said it shouldn't happen it was a question of priority and specification. Yes its going to be messy while its being built but it is a essential element of the transport system
No doubt we are losing a massive amount of money currently due to its absence
Mark Hennessy
03-08-2008, 12:42
how government works part 22334
1. Soften up public support for a project you want to ditch
2. Tell public how much money you havent got
3. Produce pie in the sky costings for the project, the higher the better
4. Show lots of pics of babys in incubaters
haven't got to point 4 yes, but watch the letters pages in the papers over the next few weeks...............
And this before we get some obfuscation from a new 'expert' group report which claims the metro can actually be built using buses running overground for only half the projected cost.
Cue 2 year study on the feasibility of this.
Mark Hennessy
03-08-2008, 13:14
Just getting round to reading the Business Post now.
The word is that current spending cannot be brought down by any significant amount.
Guess what can though?
Capital Projects! Everyone's gonna be a winner.
The outlines of the government’s plan to deal with the economic downturn are now becoming clear. For a start, it is going to involve a serious curtailing of the country’s capital investment programme – which Taoiseach Brian Cowen said was the last thing that would be affected. But as the public sector pay bill continues to rise, all indications are that the capital budget is where the axe will fall.
Cutbacks amounting to billions of euro on proposed spending in this area now seem inevitable. Ministers have been asked to produce a list of building and other capital projects that can be postponed.
The capital programme will be raided because there seems to be little will to tackle day-today spending, which has mushroomed in recent years. So far, much of the focus for proposed cutbacks has been on the plethora of agencies and quangos set up by the government in recent years, although it is far from clear if this will generate savings of the order needed to balance the state’s budgets for the next two years.
And there's more:
Transport 21 Projects to be delayed:
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=34896-qqqx=1.asp
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