Tipperary Train Stations. Upgrade works

[Destructix]

From TippFm. Was typos in the article. The full article available here.

http://www.tippfm.com/site/news/seven-tipp-railway-stations-to-benefit-from-works/



Seven Tipp railway stations to benefit from works


Seven Railway stations in Tipperary are to benefit from funding announced this morning. Birdhill, Cloughjordan, Roscrea, Tipperary, Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick on Suir stations are all set to recieve upgrade works,to the tune of €140,000
The funding has been announced by Minister of State Alan Kelly.

Last time i looked at Clonmel station (getting the bus to Waterford outside it) in August, it was in a terrible state. I don't think €140,000 is enough. Unless they are just buying paint. I never seen the other train stations apart from Roscrea and the one in Cloughjordan which looks ok thanks to the people in the village cleaning it/painting it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Looks like closure is around the corner so

Despite this odds are you still won't be able to find a list of a fares

[ACustomer]

The junior transport minister, Alan Kelly seems to excel in press releases about Irish Rail developments. There won't be a station toilet cleaned in Tipp without his claiming credit for it.

I just hope he would concentrate on getting Irish Rail to provide a level of service which might actually attract more passengers and save the Nenagh and Clonmel lines.

[Mark Gleeson]

This is just going to massively jack up the costs on the balance sheet for no real practical benefit

Now we have consistently highlighted to the NTA and IE that they were in breech of EU regulations on these routes for failing in basic requirements.

Ask Irish Rail how much they lost on the ministers Nenagh train to the hurling final, I'd wager it was a lot. Same train in Thurles would have been profitable. It was also the only GAA special in decades with a bar as well...

[Destructix]

That footbridge in Clonmel didn't appear to be safe last time i seen it. Im guessing they are just using the one platform like Nenagh then? I seen the Clonmel train at Limerick junction wasn't a huge amount of people on it exactly but alot more than i ever seen getting on in Limerick Colbert on the Limerick to Ballybrophy train. I would hate to see the Nenagh line close but this line surely is more important. A regular improved service from Templemore Thurles and Limerick even Charleville etc Via the Junction on to Tipperary Cahir Clonmel to Waterford should be possible even with limited funds. They are talking about reopening Foynes line. Why waste 7 million euro on that line, I imagine improvements to this line will cost considerably less than this. I must take a journey on that line soon.

[Inniskeen]

This is just going to massively jack up the costs on the balance sheet for no real practical benefit

Now we have consistently highlighted to the NTA and IE that they were in breech of EU regulations on these routes for failing in basic requirements.

Ask Irish Rail how much they lost on the ministers Nenagh train to the hurling final, I'd wager it was a lot. Same train in Thurles would have been profitable. It was also the only GAA special in decades with a bar as well...

I am somewhat puzzled by your assertion that Irish Rail would have lost money on the Birdhill GAA special. Stabling the train in Birdhill overnight would have eliminated most of the extra costs in opening the line on the Sunday morning as there are only 3 attended level crossings and two signal boxes between Birdhill and Ballybrophy, inclusive of both stations. They mightn't have made a fortune on the exercise but they almost certainly covered their costs and at the same time provided a service of relevance to the community.

Why would running the train out of Thurles have necessarily been profitable ? Were there 200 matchgoers left beind in Thurles on the 4th of September that we haven't heard about yet ?

[dowlingm]

inniskeen - presume Mark is adding taxi cost to return the signalling staff?

mark g: where did a bar go on a 3-car? Do you mean alcohol via trolley?

[Mark Gleeson]

It took 5 extra staff to run from Birdhill vs Thurles, plus the fare from Nenagh is lower than Thurles. Its border line to make a profit on a special even more so when its only 3 coaches so its off to a bad start on the numbers before you have to add in the taxi to get the staff to the train and the staff who brought the train out the night before

There was a trolley (which does have alcohol) so how a freshly stocked trolley magically made it aboard and was staffed is another question, plus again a break of policy of all match specials being dry

The question is what was the better option

1) Run from Birdhill
2) Run from Thurles/Limerick Junction (or make a 6 car a 9 car set)
3) Don't run at all

It was a blatant PR stunt by the minister for himself in the very worst traditions of Irish politics and has done nothing for the security of the line, in fact it exposed more problems and ended up costing money. Loads of photos of labour party people with the minister on said train as well to reinforce the point. But the minister will refuse to bring Irish Rail to account for the real issues on the routes, the money spent but longer journey times

Given Irish Rail's capital budget it will be a fancy press release every month claiming success on some item that was planned ages back

[dowlingm]

mark g: I was thinking of the ETS instrument - I didn't think of crew

after all, taxi fares from Rosslare was the beginning of the end for the South Wexford.

[Mark Gleeson]

Signalmen Birdhill, Roscrea and Ballybrophy (someone has to open a cabinet to operate the junction there)

Staff Nenagh to collect tickets, signalmen double as ticket office staff normally elewhere

Need a train guard as well, probably missing a gatekeeper or two as well

It looked good but on paper it has made the financials look bad. Just remember the IMF shut down half of the Greek rail network in one go, so we need to focus on the numbers and not on PR for a minister and his buddies going to a match

[Destructix]

All the tickets had to be collected from Thurles that morning and brought to Nenagh. I imagine they spent alot on Taxi's/fuel reimbursement getting staff in place. No service was provided from Carrick on Suir/Clonmel etc to Limerick Junction. I believe that would have been more profitable and it has great number of staff based at Plunkett and The Junction who could have managed it. Alan doesn't care about this line though.

[Inniskeen]

Signalmen Birdhill, Roscrea and Ballybrophy (someone has to open a cabinet to operate the junction there)

Staff Nenagh to collect tickets, signalmen double as ticket office staff normally elewhere

Need a train guard as well, probably missing a gatekeeper or two as well

It looked good but on paper it has made the financials look bad. Just remember the IMF shut down half of the Greek rail network in one go, so we need to focus on the numbers and not on PR for a minister and his buddies going to a match

Ok maybe 10 staff were required who mightn't otherwise have been on duty - still doesn't follow that the operation made a loss.

This was a very worthwhile exercise - Irish Rail probably didn't see it that way as they rolled out the usual 101 excuses as to why a special service could not be provided.

My understanding is that there will be very positive developments in relation to services on the Ballybrophy/Limerick line in the near future, including the re-introduction of direct services using intercity quality rolling stock. Nonetheless, the line faces a major struggle to survive but at least Irish Rail may be forced to leverage some advantage from the very substatial amounts aleady invested in track, bridges and level crossings on the branch. Consequent improvements might be sufficient to demonstrate demand to justify future investment.

Obviously long term survival will require track renewal between Nenagh and Ballybrophy, a direct curve at Ballybrophy a reasonable frequency of through services and a rationalisation and automation of level crossings. All of this is a tall order in the context of the current dismal fiscal climate.

[Mark Gleeson]

Word reached us that a loss was made on this operation and based on the factors involved that would stack up

Cost to hire a train 5-6k 183 seats work the numbers back and allow for some children and it doesn't add up.

What we need is focus on the daily service not some pr stunt. Given the arrangements at Ballybrophy daily through services are not advisable, be faster and cheaper simply to change trains. Looking at 10-12 minutes from arriving Ballybrophy before it would be possible to depart Nenagh bound provided there are no other trains passing due to the complex moves required. Then the great 30mph lark for miles on miles. Not one single mile of the route allows the ICR get into its most efficient gear and its weight will just make the track worse

No point trying if its going to be a poor offering. Despite the hype the evening Limerick Nenagh train is actually empty leaving Birdhill, everyone is on the bus or in a car as its faster

[karlr42]

Is it really totally out of the question for one crossover to be installed, all that's needed to get a train off the southbound mainline and into the branch bay(and then on to the branch)? It is literally just one crossover needed to eliminate that silly shunting move, right?

[Mark Gleeson]

One cross over north of Ballybrophy plus a complete redo of the signaling so there would be no need for a extra staff member on duty would be needed

Looking at multiple millions really as you would need to do a lot of work to bring everything up to standard

Would require a stop at Ballybrophy at all times, a full bypass curve would be many millions more.

Given journey times are the big issue a million would get you 4 miles of 60mph track

[Inniskeen]

One cross over north of Ballybrophy plus a complete redo of the signaling so there would be no need for a extra staff member on duty would be needed

Looking at multiple millions really as you would need to do a lot of work to bring everything up to standard

Would require a stop at Ballybrophy at all times, a full bypass curve would be many millions more.

Given journey times are the big issue a million would get you 4 miles of 60mph track

Sadly and disgracefully a huge amount of money was spent recently renewing the dysfunctional layout at Ballybrophy. There was an obvious opportunity to greatly simplify the layout and swing the Nenagh line northwards to allow direct running to/from Dublin. Such a layout would have allowed the number of point ends on the mainline at Ballybrophy to be reduced from the current seven to three. In addition a direct curve would have made the branch platform and run-round facilities redundant.

The savings arising from the greatly simplified layout would probably have pretty much covered the cost of the direct connection.

Incidentally the signalling changes associated with a direct curve would be really simple. All that would be required is an additional route on the first southbound mainline stop signal. Travelling north the existing branch exit signal would have to be re-sited and protected by a distant signal. Axle counters could be fairly easily deployed to eliminate ETS To Roscrea. Some modest signalling alterations (similar to those recently made at Tipperary) would be required at Roscrea as part of the ETS elimination.

None of this is likely, of course, in the immediate future but could be achieved at modest cost when conditions improve. The scandal is that so much money was wasted unnecessarily renewing the layout that has existed since the mid 1980s.

[ACustomer]

Inniskeen: your proposal would reduce BallyB to 3 point ends only if the down loop and the 2 crossovers giving acces to/from the up road were removed.

Also, a facing crossover North of the station giving direct access to the Branch platform is not much use if what is accessed is 30 miles of line restricted to 30 mph (remembering that a new motorway passes by Nenagh and Roscrea). I don't know what the cost of upgrading the branch to 70mph is, but its a bit of a dream in present circumstances.

Having said that, if they have laid lots of CWR but have failed to stress the rails (or whatever its called), then it might not be so expensive. Which just goes to show that the whole thing is a real mess.

[Inniskeen]

The loop and crossovers at Ballybrophy are little used and their removal would not be operationally signifigant given the proximity of similar crossovers at Lisduff.

[Mark Gleeson]

Loop and crossovers were just relaid so no point removing them, they are required, if removed the loop at Lisduff would need to be upgraded to passenger standards

I don't see any point in messing around with Ballybrophy as

A) It doesn't actually add any new possibilities
B) Its deemed an investment as distinct from maintenance so no money to do it
C) Dublin bound already works so changes are of even less value than at first sight
D) Any money spent on the track can be classified as maintenance and offers a benefit to all passengers regardless of where they are on the route

[jacko]

Fair play to Alan Kelly for supporting the Nenagh - Dublin hurling special.

A minister travelling by train is a rare enough sight - and if he encouraged 180 people to travel by train who would otherwise have driven - well done !

Why shouldnt the likes of Nenagh and Roscrea have a proper rail service - in any other country in Europe in would be a scandal if towns of their size were not served by trains !

And yes, running a train service can cost money - not sure what the agenda of certain people on this forum is but its a sad day when a so called spokesman for rail users criticises the provision of extra rail services

[markpb]

And yes, running a train service can cost money - not sure what the agenda of certain people on this forum is but its a sad day when a so called spokesman for rail users criticises the provision of extra rail services

Mark is being realistic. There is a finite pot of money to operate rail services in Ireland. If they add new services, the same amount of money is spread across more places so each place gets a worse service. If the service is poor, people won't use it and the pot of money gets smaller so everyone ends up worse off.

Of course if you're saying that the government should give more money to Irish Rail so as to expand viable services, I totally agree!

[Inniskeen]

Loop and crossovers were just relaid so no point removing them, they are required, if removed the loop at Lisduff would need to be upgraded to passenger standards

I don't see any point in messing around with Ballybrophy as

A) It doesn't actually add any new possibilities
B) Its deemed an investment as distinct from maintenance so no money to do it
C) Dublin bound already works so changes are of even less value than at first sight
D) Any money spent on the track can be classified as maintenance and offers a benefit to all passengers regardless of where they are on the route

I am not suggesting removing the recently renewed crossovers at Ballybrophy, that would clearly serve no point. Having said that, the mainline facing crossover could, even now, be repositioned to allow direct access to the Nenagh line branch platform at Ballybrophy. I do however question the utter waste in renewing such a disfunctional layout in the first place.

Rationalisation of the Ballybrophy layout would only have required an upgrade at Lisduff if it was desired to facilitate overtaking of one passenger train by another. There is hardly a priority operational requirement at either Ballybrophy or Lisduff. In fact the usage of the loop at Ballybrophy is normally associated with the current convoluted machinations required to run a through service from Dublin onto the branch. A direct curve would have eliminated the need for most of the crossovers and turnouts at Ballybrophy and the savings would probably have offset the cost of the direct connection.

Like so many things it is now water under the bridge but most definitely an opportunity lost.

[Mark Gleeson]

The service almost certainly made a loss and is beyond the contract with the state, therefore it was not subsidised and the daily passenger will have to pay for that loss. The minister also got himself a bar on the train as well (there was a trolley with drink to our knowledge), which is in contradiction with stated match day train policy.

The more inquiries we make the more hidden extra costs we see. This is not sustainable and not good for the railways long term, PR stunts are not welcome.

Once off special services are of ZERO value to the commuter and regular passenger and in this case actually made a bad situation worse. Won't see the minister criticising the terribly journey times nor will any dail question get any other response other than the Father Ted line, "That would be an operational matter for the company...."

The photos of the day are interesting.

[jacko]

The service almost certainly made a loss and is beyond the contract with the state, therefore it was not subsidised and the daily passenger will have to pay for that loss. The minister also got himself a bar on the train as well (there was a trolley with drink to our knowledge), which is in contradiction with stated match day train policy.

The more inquiries we make the more hidden extra costs we see. This is not sustainable and not good for the railways long term, PR stunts are not welcome.

Once off special services are of ZERO value to the commuter and regular passenger and in this case actually made a bad situation worse. Won't see the minister criticising the terribly journey times nor will any dail question get any other response other than the Father Ted line, "That would be an operational matter for the company...."

The photos of the day are interesting.

You havent a clue - an underused rail line has a service added to meet demand - it attracts a large number of customers - more people end up using public transport- the market was there and for once IR met the demand with a proper service

Hopefully it will encourage IR to put on more services on the line at times that meet the needs of it's customers (actual & potential) in North Tipp

[comcor]

Quite honestly, the bar is a non-concern when it comes to whether the service made a profit or not. It will have cost the employment of one person and considering the mark-up they have on drink, it's inconceivable that it didn't cover that cost.

Whether a bar is a good idea on a hurling special is another question.

[dowlingm]

jacko - the point being made here is that it is difficult for Irish Rail to keep its head above water on the lines which attract decent patronage and are largely centrally signalled/grade separated. If the passengers had been obliged to bear the incremental costs of the special train rather than the fare actually charged it is doubtful the service would been so full.

Statements like "in any other country in Europe towns that size..." aren't very helpful because in other countries the rail service wouldn't be allowed to tread water or decline while billions was directed to road transport, and in other countries bus services would operate synergistically with rail rather than in death struggle competition (http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=771&month=Nov).

It is to be hoped that once the Limerick Junction-Clonmel works ongoing are completed then it would be economical to have Sunday service on that section and not just for the benefit of the GAA.

The problem is that by larding on additional costs to the stations the beancounters are poised to pounce - if the unified Tipperary Council want to keep stations open in Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan, Roscrea, Ballybrophy, Templemore, Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, they have two ways to go about it. There's the protected designation route, as Limerick CC tried (surely the High Court won't fall for the same ploy twice) but that keeps the costs on IE's books and keeps fares higher for passengers on other lines. The other is a public offer to lease the stations from IE, taking all car park revenue, seeking lessors for other areas of the station and guaranteeing IE an minimum income so long as service is maintained.

[Inniskeen]

The service almost certainly made a loss and is beyond the contract with the state, therefore it was not subsidised and the daily passenger will have to pay for that loss. The minister also got himself a bar on the train as well (there was a trolley with drink to our knowledge), which is in contradiction with stated match day train policy.

The more inquiries we make the more hidden extra costs we see. This is not sustainable and not good for the railways long term, PR stunts are not welcome.

Once off special services are of ZERO value to the commuter and regular passenger and in this case actually made a bad situation worse. Won't see the minister criticising the terribly journey times nor will any dail question get any other response other than the Father Ted line, "That would be an operational matter for the company...."

The photos of the day are interesting.

This obsession with bashing the Birdhill hurling special is mind boggling. The operation was hugely successful from numerous standpoints and those who ensured it happened should be highly commended. It is very positive and welcome that Alan Kelly is interested as Irish Rail (corporately) certainly aren't and will just drift along aimlessly on this line as elsewhere.

Corporate Irish Rail needs a good kick up the rear as they are underperforming on almost all routes and have, with a few exceptions, failed to deliver product proportional to the level of investment that has been finaced from the public purse.

The hurling special was a very small step towards making the Nenagh line relevant to the community it serves.

[dowlingm]

This obsession with bashing the Birdhill hurling special is mind boggling. The operation was hugely successful from numerous standpoints and those who ensured it happened should be highly commended. It is very positive and welcome that Alan Kelly is interested as Irish Rail (corporately) certainly aren't and will just drift along aimlessly on this line as elsewhere.

{snip}

The hurling special was a very small step towards making the Nenagh line relevant to the community it serves.We will have to agree to differ. If anything Minister Kelly has given the community a mistaken impression of what can be achieved. His predecessors had 106m to spend on the WRC, he's trying to make press releases out of 1/100th that sum on paint and cleaning. The punters on the train were probably marvelling at how much money IE were going to make on that special not knowing that both on an absolute and opportunity cost basis that service lost IE money.

Success on "numerous standpoints", when questioned, tends to end up a discussion on intangibles. Let me ask you this, since you are claiming knowledge of what "the community" thinks: how many additional tickets were bought for any service on the Nenagh Branch this week over last? Usage is the best way for the community to save the line - jam the 2700s until 4 car sets are needed, jam the 4 car sets until extra services are imperative. But that's not going to happen, is it? Not with 2 euro bus fares and the M7.

EDIT: to be clear, I would like to see services on the Nenagh branch succeed, 70mph and mini CTC and all the trimmings. But as Mark G pointed out there is simply no money to do with with massive work remaining to be done on the mainlines.

[Inniskeen]

Usage is the best way for the community to save the line - jam the 2700s until 4 car sets are needed, jam the 4 car sets until extra services are imperative. But that's not going to happen, is it? Not with 2 euro bus fares and the M7.


Attracting patronage requires the provision of services which operate when people wish to travel and are sufficiently competitive in journey time, price, comfort, convenience and frequency.

Delivering a useful service on the Nenagh line in its current condition is a major challenge, although given that a lot of money has been spent on renewing the line between Killonan and Nenagh something better than the present offering should be possible.

The scenario you paint for the Nenagh line is a depressing one - while the line is an extreme example it is an analysis that can be applied in respect of many services. Arguably a non-stop bus service every half hour on the M8 to Cork charging say €10 each way could replace the current Dublin/Cork service. The bus service might actually make money - does the existing Cork service make money ? If we spend another €175 million, will it make money ?

I can only surmise that you favour closing the Nenagh line - it hardly makes much sense to continue to run the current virtually irrelevant service other than as a holding operation pending the availability of funds to bring the line to a standard where a useful service can be provided.

Long term survival really requires re-instating through services to Limerick, a direct curve at Ballybrophy, major frequency improvement and a substantial reduction in journey times. This certainly won't happen any time soon, but it might be possible in the future.

[Mark Gleeson]

As someone who has spent a lot of time in Tipperary, both the Nenagh and Clonmel lines are considered a joke, people prefer to drive to Thurles. Nothing bar a miracle will change there minds.

I know both lines well and have travelled them, and on the Nenagh line been the only fare paying passenger on the train. The timetable is the problem, 2 hours to do 68 miles is never going to attract business. The trip actually reinforced the worst fears of many, it exposed a 3 hour journey time from Birdhill to Dublin on a direct train.

Its all well and good to imagine this will change minds, but people made there minds up long ago. A change will only come with a better daily service, and despite a limited effort there has been minimal take up. We cannot tolerate any commercial activity by Irish Rail which negatively impacts on the public service, in some cases its illegal hence the massive freight restructuring as they could no longer syphon money off the subsidy to fund it.

There is much further detail but it would be libelous to publish it

Any profit on the trolley is not going to Irish Rail, but a % of the loss is. The T&C's say "No alcohol or glass bottles will be allowed on the special trains" so it one rule for us but special treatment for the minister

[Destructix]

I often see the Nenagh/Roscrea train departing Colbert and it never has more than 3 or 4 people on it. Sometimes only 1 person only gets on it.

I would hate to see the service withdrawn but people in Nenagh should be using the service because once Iarnród Éireann have enough of making a loss running these services and makes a decision to close it, it will only end up like the Rosslare-Waterford line and be un-savable and bear in mind this line had alot more passengers than Nenagh-Limerick.

With trains taking only 2hrs-15mins on the Dublin to Cork line (including the change at the junction)

vs

3hrs-28mins to get from Dublin to Limerick via Ballybrophy-Limerick line.

I don't see Iarnród Éireann running direct services on that line as the journey time would spook customers. Best thing at the moment for Nenagh Rail Action is to get many more people using the line.

[James Howard]

I'm not sure if there is an agenda here, but I've been lurking on this thread for a while trying to resist responding.

Not being anywhere near this line, I can't be certain but it appears to me that the issue is that this line appears to be very lightly used because of infrequent services, high running costs (manual crossings and signals) and very low line speed. In an ideal world, this would all be put right by spending something like 40 or 50 million euro to automate the line and renew it to get it all up to 60 mph standard. There are basically three or possibly four options with a line like this and none of them are nice


Invest 10s of millions into the line
Continue to spend a million or two subsiding an underused loss-making service
Investigate if there are private organisations interesting in taking the line over
Close it down


The first is out, as there is no money, the second is possible for another year or two but is only really sensible if there is some prospect of the money to sort it out in the future. The third is probably fantasy as there would be massive opposition from Irish Rail unions and management but you never know. Perhaps some kind of heritage operation is possible. The fourth is deeply unpalatable and it is something I would be extremely strongly against if it were happening in my area.

The exact same set of circumstances and options were there for the Rosslare line and they are coming down the road for Limerick Junction to Waterford. Whatever is the most marginal line left is always on the firing line

But put yourself in the shoes of a politician and try to figure out whether you'll get more flack for closing a railway, a school or a hospital and you'll come to a answer that indicates what is likely to happen. If the people in the area value this service, they need to be paying for it and possibly getting the losses down to more reasonable levels. This country can no longer afford to be paying for services nobody wants.

None of this changes when some rabble-rousing idiot politician pulls strings to be able to take a shiny new train to a football match surrounded by his cronies who feel the need for a drink at 10 o'clock in the morning. This whole charter business is a sideshow and has nothing to do with making the line viable - as has been said earlier if it lost money all it has succeeded in doing is making the line less viable.

This is the sort of messing about and abuse of public office that got this country into the state it is. In any normal functioning democracy this idiot would have been fired. I suppose I should take it easy on Alan Kelly seeing as how he is minister for "Commuter Affairs".

[Mark Gleeson]

There has been a queue of international rail company executives visiting Dublin over in recent months, they are universally shocked at the operational practices, failure to provide services to meet the communities needs and also the disconnection between the money spent and the service delivered.

What Irish Rail says costs millions they claim to be able to do for hundreds of thousands.

So the nuclear option could be a good option for joe public, if better service, less cost could be done.

[Destructix]

Im guessing cause it is subsidised they would have to run a train from Colbert-Nenagh even if no one got on it?

[Mark Gleeson]

They are required to run the timetable as published

That said they love to use a bus and hide the fact, it took me 5 minutes of questioning the booking office clerk to actually verify that the service was running and was in fact a train despite the departure board saying bus last time I had to get to Nenagh from Limerick.

With that kind of routine its further evidence of the lack of interest from Irish Rail and the desire to close

[Destructix]

Wouldn't designating and running 2751 and 2753 single on that line be cheaper than sending out a full set. It would probably use less fuel and be more convenient.

[dowlingm]

There seems to be a no-go on using 275x units solo these days - in any case saves nothing on crew or trackside labour

[Destructix]

The problem is that by larding on additional costs to the stations the beancounters are poised to pounce - if the unified Tipperary Council want to keep stations open in Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan, Roscrea, Ballybrophy, Templemore, Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, they have two ways to go about it. There's the protected designation route, as Limerick CC tried (surely the High Court won't fall for the same ploy twice) but that keeps the costs on IE's books and keeps fares higher for passengers on other lines. The other is a public offer to lease the stations from IE, taking all car park revenue, seeking lessors for other areas of the station and guaranteeing IE an minimum income so long as service is maintained.

Templemore does sell a lot of tickets though and Iarnród Éireann has increased the number of trains there in the past few years and they are finally putting a ticket machine in the station in the coming weeks.

I think Clonmel Cahir and Carrick-On-Suir are the ones at most risk of closure at the moment judging by the poor service and little or no work done to the lines.

Looking at that track last time in Clonmel with it's old creosoted sleepers which must be at least 40 years old im guessing it's speed restricted too. Stopping these stations closing is much more important in my view than saving a service for Nenagh and Roscrea.

As i mentioned before i wouldnt like to see Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line close. But if both lines were invested in to a standard like the Limerick-Limerick Juction line etc, the Clonmel line would attract more people. At the moment its not exactly selling out seats but is selling more than the LIM/BALLY line

Clonmel is much bigger than Nenagh and Roscrea put together. That line is a possible link from as far as Portlaoise-Waterford service and could offera Limerick-Clonmel-Waterford two or three hourly service which is not exactly impossible to run and should be invested in.

[dowlingm]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-under-fire-after-securing-special-train-for-allireland-final-2887246.html

Minister under fire after securing special train for All-Ireland final
By Eimear Ni Bhraonain
Monday September 26 2011

JUNIOR Transport Minister Alan Kelly secured a special train to take him and Tipperary supporters to Dublin for the All-Ireland senior hurling final.

While most Tipperary and Kilkenny fans travelling to the match had to be on 'dry' services, the special service used by Mr Kelly sold alcohol.

The Irish Independent has learned that Labour TD Mr Kelly put "considerable pressure" on Iarnrod Eireann for a train to bring more than 150 north Tipperary fans from his constituency to Dublin for game on September 4, which Kilkenny won 2-17 to 1-16.

It is understood that it is at least a decade since a special train ran on the Birdhill line, which serves the Co Tipperary towns of Nenagh and Roscrea. Mr Kelly lives in Nenagh.

A rail source said trains to bring Tipperary supporters to Dublin had previously used the Limerick/Thurles line because of demand and because they incur less staff costs than using the Nenagh route.

There was no equivalent service from Nenagh when Tipperary reached the All-Ireland finals in 2001, 2009 or 2010.

Despite repeated requests to Mr Kelly to comment on the matter, the junior minister with responsibility for public transport and commuter affairs did not respond last night.

The final decision to run the train was Iarnrod Eireann's. The company said the service to and from Dublin was "justified" as it was 90pc full. It made a "small" profit on the service.

Special trains also ran from Waterford for Kilkenny supporters -- and one from Limerick for Tipperary fans -- on the same day. However, no alcohol was sold onboard.

"No alcohol is permitted on board regular or special services on match days," a notice on Iarnrod Eireann's website states.

But Iarnrod Eireann spokesperson Barry Kenny said it was "not correct to say that alcohol had been banned on all GAA services".

Mr Kenny added: "Whilst most sports specials do operate without alcohol, we judge on a case-by-case basis whether alcohol should be sold.

"This is based on factors including the nature of the fixture -- for example, if a train was likely to have supporters of both counties on board -- and past experience on the service or route."

Mr Kenny also defended the firm's decision to run the special service. "We were delighted that supporters along the route chose to travel to the match with us, including Minister Kelly also," he said.

Trolley

He said there was "no bar" on the train -- and that it had a "trolley service only" from where alcohol was served.

The Rail Users Group condemned the move by Mr Kelly, claiming he was pulling rank.

"The minister is looking after his own constituency and looking after himself," said the group's Mark Gleeson.

Mr Gleeson said the train had run empty from Limerick and parked in Birdhill overnight to save on having to get six gatekeepers to work early on Sunday.

He said although the group believed any extra services were welcome, the circumstances of this special train were "questionable".

It's understood staff had to be in place early at Birdhill, Nenagh, Roscrea and an extra person was needed at Ballybrophy to operate the signals to allow the train onto the mainline.

The rail source also said "considerable pressure" was put on Iarnrod Eireann to run the service.

- Eimear Ni BhraonainIf there's nothing wrong, why is the Public Transport Minister hiding behind the Information Minister? Why not say how much a "small" profit is? No doubt if a Dail Committee asked that would be "commercially sensitive" - i.e. usually coloured red on spreadsheets. :rolleyes:

[Inniskeen]

Hurrah for the Minister - it is not that often that a train on the Nenagh line produces a small profit !