Connolly Side Services - Draft Timetable

[Mark Gleeson]

Its up

http://www.irishrail.ie/contact_us/connolly_timetable_comments.asp

Major changes on Rosslare line and Maynooth/M3 services otherwise not much changed

[James Howard]

Not exactly radical for Longford commuters. The only change I can see is the 1805 down train now takes 2 minutes longer which isn't exactly progress. Still I'll forgive them if its a 22k consistently.

I guess this is more to do with statistics than anything else. This train was making things look real bad for a couple of months after Christmas where it was consistently 11 or 12 minutes late 3 or 4 days a week.

[Mark Gleeson]

Northern Line details
http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?p=62749#post62749

[Thomas J Stamp]

Not exactly radical for Longford commuters. The only change I can see is the 1805 down train now takes 2 minutes longer which isn't exactly progress. Still I'll forgive them if its a 22k consistently.

I guess this is more to do with statistics than anything else. This train was making things look real bad for a couple of months after Christmas where it was consistently 11 or 12 minutes late 3 or 4 days a week.

the old reggie perrin solution. the train which is 12 mins late every day gets a timetable change of an extra 15 mins so it automatically becomes 3 mins early every day.

[ThomasJ]

Overall, as a Clonsilla user, I am happy with the plans for the new timetable. A general approx 30 minutes frequency with most going to connolly is a massive improvement over even now where you could be waiting upto an hour!

Finally common sense with trains now generally stopping at all stations. Its great to see m3 trains going to pearse at the weekend!

My usual gripe with the last sunday train outbound (and inbound) and i have highlighted it in my mail to irish rail, the 20:45 should be pushed back to 21:00 with an additional service at 22.30

[Mark Gleeson]

I will try to do a review of Maynooth line and post it later

DART wise no change really between Howth Junc and Bray/Greystones

Some resorting of the order between Malahide and Howth such that Northern line trains always follow a Howth DART to ensure least delay

Rosslare changes significant, some trains removed, some extended, but clear effort to integrate with ferries

[Eddie]

Rosslare changes significant, some trains removed, some extended, but clear effort to integrate with ferries

Agreed for the morning arrivals into Rosslare and evening departures out of Rosslare.

However the 1755 departure from Rosslare leaves very shortly before the 1800 Stena arrival and a while before the 1845 Irish Ferries arrival. As Irish Ferries don't do Rail & Sail through Rosslare, if it just waited 30 - 40 mins for the Stena arrival it would make more journeys possible.

And nothing to get you to Rosslare in time for the morning departures either!

[Thomas Ralph]

And nothing to get you to Rosslare in time for the morning departures either!

Course there is, it's called Bus Éireann route 2 :rolleyes:

[Mark Gleeson]

To be fair there is no business case for a 5am Dublin Rosslare train as it would be solely for ferry passengers

There are some pathing issues with the 17:55 train but it needs to be later 18:55 would be the latest really (Irish Ferries don't do sail/rail through Rosslare) so it needs to connect with Stena Line

Problem is a massive 8 hour gap Dublin bound appears if you do that

A 5th return service is expected in 2012 so something could be done there to even things out

[Colm Moore]

Irish Ferries don't do sail/rail through RosslareIf there was meaningful services, might they?

[Traincustomer]

If there was meaningful services, might they?

Leaving aside the current lack of integration at Rosslare I think the key reason for no SailRail on this route is that Pembroke Dock station is some distance from the Irish Ferries terminal (approximately a mile). There used to be SailRail on this route some years ago. Furthermore the Pembroke to Rosslare sea passage is half an hour longer than Fishguard-Rosslare. Following on directly from this is the fact that trains to/from Rosslare have a greater need to connect with the Stena Line sailings to/from Fishguard due to the Fishguard route offering an integrated and ease of transfer facility (ferry & rail station same building - ship literally overshadows the terminal-station).

Fishguard has trains connecting both to and from the daytime & overnight conventional ferry (Stena Line) to/from Rosslare seven days a week.
Additional trains are to be introduced to Fishguard this September. Whilst primarily catering for the population of North Pembrokeshire one train each way will offer a connection into the seasonal Stena Express to/from Rosslare.

Holyhead which has a far superior level of train service daytime doesn't even offer an overnight train to London (one would have to wait around from after midnight till 0425).

The Pembroke-Rosslare ferry (Irish Ferries) now facilitates two coach routes between Britain and Éire - the longstanding Eurolines Route 890: Cork-Waterford-Wexford-Cardiff-London and the very recently launched Megabus Rosslare-Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff-Newport-Bristol-London route.

However there is a proposal (in the public domain) to move the ferry operations to Milford Haven (also rail connected) which would offer a shorter sea passage and presumably a better rail connection.

[jscales1]

I was hoping for better integration of the Dublin-Maynooth train and the Dublin to Sligo train. I feel that the 18:37 ex connolly should be timed better to suit the 19:05 train to Sligo i.e 5 minute wait for the train going west of Maynooth. This then could be repeated for all the services west of Maynooth. There is always seats on the 19:05 train when the first stop of Maynooth is cleared. With the current economic climate you'd feel it would be time to open the pheonix park tunnell to commuter traffic and have services running from Kildare to Maynooth integrating with the M3 services. The reason I bring this up is that with the trains that are now going to be out of service they could be put to use on Kildare-Maynooth to see is it a viable service

[ACustomer]

jscaLes1: your post mentions integrating "Kildare to Maynooth" trains with other rail services, by using the Phoenix Park Tunnel. Even by using the tunnel, it is not possible to run from Kildare to Maynooth (except via a reversal in Connolly). If there is a demand for public transport between Kildare/Newbridge and Maynooth, I would guess that a bus service would be hte natural choice.

[Traincustomer]

Just wondering what the implementation timeframe for the new timetable is likely to be. If the process mirrors that of the "Heuston side" services I'd say early-October.

[Mark Gleeson]

Start September is probably most likely, that was a traditional change time in days past.

4 weeks consultation, 4 weeks revision and 4 weeks notice, June/July/August

[Traincustomer]

Seems reasonable.

[DangerM]

I'm struggling to see the radical changes to the Rosslare line, little to no change to the key commuter trains as far as I can see!

[Mark Gleeson]

07:33 Dublin Rosslare now departs 9:40, several minutes faster
07:50 Rosslare Dublin now departs 7:20, better connection to ferry arrival
16:30 now departs 16:37 operates to Rosslare connection to ferry

13:30 and 18:30 depart 7 minutes late but arrive Rosslare same time

Morning Rosslare change Enniscorthy Dundalk is now a direct train no change

[Eddie]

Would the 1925 and 2128 arrivals into Rosslare from Dublin form the 0535 and 0720 departures the next morning, or are there a lot of empty trains running back and forth to Dublin in the evening and in the early morning?

[Mark Gleeson]

The 16:37 and 18:37 stay the night in Rosslare and operate back as the 5:35 and 7:20. There are drivers based in Rosslare

[DangerM]

07:33 Dublin Rosslare now departs 9:40, several minutes faster
07:50 Rosslare Dublin now departs 7:20, better connection to ferry arrival
16:30 now departs 16:37 operates to Rosslare connection to ferry

13:30 and 18:30 depart 7 minutes late but arrive Rosslare same time

Morning Rosslare change Enniscorthy Dundalk is now a direct train no change


For me, as a daily commuter, I don't see how 7 minute adjustments to a timetable are considered radical. Radical for the rosslare line would be a train home later than 6:30pm!

[Mark Gleeson]

The major changes are for significantly improved connections at Rosslare

A 7 minute journey time reduction is a significant event

[sublimity]

The major changes are for significantly improved connections at Rosslare

A 7 minute journey time reduction is a significant event

I really welcome that 7 min difference. It means we won't be crawling as much from connolly to bray!

Mark, do you reckon the new morning rosslare - dundalk direct service will be 6 coach operated?

[Mark Gleeson]

The early morning service is likely to remain a 4 coach but there is scope to move to 6 coaches once the express Longford/Dundalk services switch to ICR operation in 2012

Needless to say we have ongoing correspondence with DART management to see what can be done to cut a few minutes out of the DART schedules.

[ThomasJ]

changes to rosslare line/gorey include

The cancellation of the 12.05 connolly arklow and returning arklow maynooth service. That service will now start at pearse calling at all stations to maynooth.

Though the 17:38 Connolly wexford will still start in Maynooth at 17:00 calling additionally at clonsilla

The 19:30 Wexford Connolly is also cancelled as the 16:30 now continues on to Rosslare

[Mark Gleeson]

17:38 Connolly Wexford already starts at Maynooth

The 19:30 Wexford Dublin has been cancelled for the last year, it only runs on a Friday and has less than 20 people onboard.

[Colm Moore]

I'm wondering about those times when there is no service 25-26 December and before about 9am on Bank Holidays, especially in urban areas. Some people do need to get to work (internationally traded services - IFSC, call centres, health, security, retail) and visit friends / do things. Buses are rather thin on the ground around Dalkey, parts of Ballybrack, Howth Junction, especially as they tend to have Sunday schedules on those days. Donabate is reduced to having a shuttle to Swords.The Maynooth and Kildare lines aren't as badly affected as bus routes tend to shadow the rail route, but aren't as direct. I'm not sure about the rest of the Northern line,a s most palces have some bus service. In Cork, Cobh doesn't have a bus service, but Midleton does. I think that its unrealistic to offer a service on 25 December, but that a skeleton DART and Cork-Cobh service could be offered on 26 December, perhaps hourly 8am-midday and half-hourly until maybe 10/11pm. Only main stations need be staffed.

One problem on 26 December may be the completion of the track re-laying at Dun Laoghaire-Sandycove.

For other Bank Holidays, providing some service from 7am (8am city centre arrival) to normal Sunday start of business would be useful.

[Alan French]

I’d be interested to hear people’s opinions on the times of the Rosslare trains. When is really the most popular time for the morning train from Dublin? Over the last 50 years it has varied from 07.25 to 09.50, which makes me wonder how the market really is. In general, the times of first trains on most lines have become earlier over the years, following the needs of business travel. Possibly IR have reckoned that the number of passengers in this category has become very small on the Rosslare line, so they have decided to cater for the leisure travel market, which would suggest a later hour. Do you think this is what has happened?

Then there is the question of the afternoon run from Rosslare. This changed from 14.45 to 13.25 in 2003, when the train was extended to provide an extra run from Connolly to Maynooth and back. This ceased in 2009 with the coming of the ICRs, but the train retains its earlier time. Is it still the best time? The later time, incidentally, would allow a connection from the 11.00 Lynx sailing from Fishguard (which will be relevant next summer). And would a change to about 14.45 cater for enough local traffic to allow the 17.55 to be deferred to 18.55 and become a boat train?

Assuming these are the best times (09.40 returning 12.55), it leaves an ICR train idle for the two busiest times of the day. So I intend to suggest to IR that they should pick the most crowded place and time on any of the three suburban lines, and run the train as an extra to relieve crowding. I know it has only three coaches, and I know that boarding and alighting will be slower with the narrower doors, but there should be some role that the train can fill. Has anyone any ideas on a likely candidate? Maybe 08.35 from Bray, running non-stop to Lansdowne Road? Or maybe 07.50 from Maynooth, non-stop or limited stop? Similarly in the evenings. (I reckon that the 17.07 Connolly-Balbriggan, which dates from 2004, is a similar example of the use of a 4-coach train to relieve pressure on other trains).

It seems that they have improved overall efficiency on the Rosslare line by reducing empty running. I would still like to see some of the gaps filled, at least between Dublin and Arklow.

[Alan French]

On the Belfast line, I’m wondering about the Lisburn stops. How did they decide which trains would stop there, do you think? It looks like the ones with the most spare capacity. If it’s to encourage southerners to visit Lisburn for shopping, then I suggest that the 16.10 from Belfast should also stop there.

The Sligo line seems to be working successfully with its two-hourly pattern of service. One thing I would add is the possibility of a train for commuters to Sligo. This was proposed some years ago when there was only one train based in Sligo, which left at 07.30. Now there are three trains based there, and one doesn’t start till 09.00. So I suggest a 07.30 from Sligo to Boyle, returning about 08.05, Mon-Fri. The problem is that departures from Sligo in the evening are at 17.00 and 19.00, and there is no train available to do a run between these.

[dowlingm]

Alan French, I doubt it was anything to do with shopping and more that NIR wanted more Lisburn-Belfast capacity and Enterprise users are so battered by security alerts and whatnot they wouldn't miss another few minutes.

IE then thought, well if they can get away with that, we can introduce a Newry regional service using 75mph stock over a 90mph section using safety exemptions and not bother offering anybody from Dundalk or Drogheda (for surely these 29s are dispatched from the Depot) the chance to hook into the Newry-Belfast early service.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 7:33 to Rosslare was moved back to 9:40 as it was causing chaos as Irish Rail tried to wedge through 5 trains in less than 20 minutes, delays of 5-10 minutes on the DART following are routine. This train is quiet and empties out as it heads southwards

9:40 service is a more practical time as you can arrive in from Belfast/Sligo etc and make it plus it will take some pressure off the 13:30 service. It also provides a better connection to the late afternoon ferries to France.

Return schedule is restricted by having to be back in Dublin before rush hour arrives. Bear in mind Connolly is still short 1-2 3 car ICR sets and it won't be till 2012 that that is resolved

The problem is simple, there needs to be 5 trains a day Rosslare Dublin to plug the gap from Rosslare which would allow the 17:55 to run as 18:55 and thus provide connections from ferries

As the Lynx service is seasonal (and possibly not running in 2012 as it might be transferred to Dun Laoghaire to replace HSS) its not a priority. That said there is scope to change its schedule far easier than the traditional ferries.

[Colm Moore]

On the Belfast line, I’m wondering about the Lisburn stops. How did they decide which trains would stop there, do you think? It looks like the ones with the most spare capacity. If it’s to encourage southerners to visit Lisburn for shopping, then I suggest that the 16.10 from Belfast should also stop there.I get the impression that it was to fill gaps in the NIR timetable for Lisburn-Belfast.

Ferry connections need to allow for connection time and some disruption. Only three minutes to spare going from ship to train in Holyhead yesterday.

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http://irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=1130Draft schedules for Connolly routes (including DART & Commuter) - have your say! (Updated 10th June) by Corporate Communications

Iarnród Éireann welcomes constructive views and feedback from customers as it helps us to improve our services.

A draft copy of our new proposed timetable for services operating through Connolly Station and Dublin City Centre is available here http://www.irishrail.ie/contact_us/connolly_timetable_comments.asp and we would like to hear your thoughts – whether the proposed schedule is something you welcome or would not support, or whether there are changes not included you would like to see.

Iarnród Éireann will endeavour to implement customers' suggestions where possible. Suggested alterations which cannot be implemented at this timetable change will be retained in a database for consideration at future timetable reviews.

All feedback received will be acknowledged by an automated e-mail reply. The implementation date for this proposed new timetable will be announced at a later date on www.irishrail.ie

The draft schedule contains timetables for services operating through Connolly Station and Dublin City Centre, i.e.

Dublin-Rosslare
Dublin-Sligo
Dublin-Belfast
Maynooth/Longford/M3 Parkway Commuter
Drogheda/Dundalk Commuter
DART.


IMPORTANT NOTE (10th June 2011)

The original draft version did not list Clongriffin as a stop on the 18:15 Pearse to Drogheda service. This stop was ommitted erroneously and this error has now been corrected. For clarification, our proposals do include Clongriffin as a stop on this service, now listed in the draft schedules. We apologise for any concern arising from this.


Services operating to & from Heuston Station and Southern & Western regional services were available for customer comment from 07/01/2011 to 04/02/2011 and we thank you for all the suggestions and comments you submitted during that consultation period.

This timetable commenced on Sunday 8th May 2011 and incorporates a range of customer comments received during that period.

Draft Connolly & Dublin City Centre routes are available here. http://www.irishrail.ie/contact_us/connolly_timetable_comments.asp

While we encourage all customers to check their relevant schedules in full, as minor changes may impact on your own journey, the most significant changes in these draft schedules are detailed below:


Maynooth / M3 Parkway / Longford Commuter:
· Monday to Friday off–peak M3 Parkway services will now operate hourly to/from Dublin Connolly Station serving all stations in both directions.
· Weekend M3 Parkway services will now operate hourly to/from Dublin Pearse Station serving all stations in both directions.
· Some existing non-stop weekday M3 Parkway services will now call at all stations to/from Docklands.
· Maynooth service will now be hourly at off–peak on weekdays and all day on weekends.
· New early morning Sunday services at 08.40 hrs Dublin Pearse / Maynooth and 09.40 hrs return.


Sligo InterCity:
· No changes


Northern Commuter (Drogheda / Dundalk):
· Changes to stopping patterns on a number of morning services into Dublin in an attempt to improve journey times.
· Also changes in departure times on a number of services in both directions, please check draft timetable for full details.
· 05.40 hrs Dundalk / Dublin Connolly service is extended to Dublin Pearse and will now depart Dundalk at 05.45 hrs but with existing arrival time in Dublin Connolly resulting in a faster journey time of 5 minutes to Dublin Connolly.
· 07.00 hrs Dundalk / Dublin Connolly will now have an arrival in Dublin Connolly of 08.18 hrs, a 10 minute faster journey time.
· Updated 11.35 Drogheda-Pearse will be cancelled.
· Many services will now operate non-stop between Malahide and Dublin Connolly and vice versa to improve journey times.
· Existing Monday to Friday 20.30 hrs Dublin Connolly / Drogheda service will now operate at 20.44 hrs Dublin Pearse / Drogheda and serve Howth Junction and all stations from Portmarnock to Drogheda.
· New early morning Sunday service at 08.05 hrs Drogheda / Dublin Pearse.


Belfast Enterprise:
· No changes


Rosslare InterCity / South East Commuter Services:
· 05.35 hrs Rosslare Europort / Enniscorthy and 06.23 hrs Enniscorthy / Dundalk services will be combined to form a 05.35 hrs Rosslare Europort / Dundalk service on Mondays to Saturdays.
· 06.25 Enniscorthy / Rosslare Europort is cancelled.
· 07.50 hrs Rosslare Europort / Dublin Connolly will be advanced to 07.20 hrs and operate 30 minutes earlier throughout. Providing a better connection off the morning ferry arrivals into Rosslare Europort and also an earlier arrival time in Dublin.
· 07.32 hrs Dublin Connolly / Rosslare Europort will now depart at 09.40 hrs from Connolly.
· 12.05 hrs Dublin Connolly / Arklow and 14.35 Arklow / Dublin Pearse are cancelled.
· 13.30 hrs Dublin Connolly / Rosslare Europort is deferred to 13.36 hrs with existing times from Dun Laoghaire to give a faster journey time.
· 16.30 hrs Dublin Connolly / Wexford is deferred to 16.37 hrs with existing times from Dun Laoghaire and now extended through to Rosslare Europort. Providing faster journey time to the South East and also a new service to Rosslare Europort with connections into the evening ferry sailings to Wales and France.
· 18.30 hrs Dublin Connolly / Rosslare Europort is deferred to 18.38 hrs with existing times from Dun Laoghaire to give a faster journey time.
· 19.30 hrs Wexford / Dublin Connolly service is cancelled.


DART:
· Changes to a number of services to & from Howth and Malahide throughout the day on Mondays to Saturdays, please check draft timetable for full details. This is intended to balance services to provide a more balanced DART service to and from Howth and Malahide at a half-hourly service frequency to Clongriffin, Portmarnock and Malahide.
· Changes in departure times on a number of services, please check draft timetable for full details.

[Paddyphillips]

There is 1 big change the 18:40 currently goes non stop to Donabate. The new timetable it will now skip Donabate and goes straight to Rush and Lusk.
There is no time saving as it will arrive at Rush and Lusk at the same time.

This service is used alot ( aprox 60 people get off daily) this change will mean almost an hour wait and I can see no reason for this

[Inniskeen]

The 1840 rarely arrives in Drogheda on time and frequently delays the 1900 to Belfast by between five and ten minutes. Mind you Belfast trains should clearly leave at 35, 50, 05 or 20 past the hour to minimise delays caused by preceding DARTservices. Deferring the 1900 to Belfast to 1905 would leave more scope for the 1840 to retain the Donabate stop with less likliehood of delaying the following Belfast train.

[Paddyphillips]

The delay is caused mainly when it leaves Connolly late and it is stuck behind a DART and cannot get up to speed getting rid of the Donabate stop will not resolve the problem as the time that the new timetable has for Rush and Lusk is the same as present

[KSW]

Moving the 7.33 Connolly-Rosslare back to 9.40 makes more sense to cater for the leisure passengers,I know myself as I left Dublin on the 9.30 bus service a few times that piece of news is great.

Coming from Gorey in the morning to Dublin,I assume the 05.55 is still operating,then you have 06.45,08.25,14.01,19.04 if i'm reading the online draft correctly. To me there still appears to be a huge gap between 8.25 to 4.01 and 19.04 ultimately i would also like a train at 11am and 16.30 to Dublin.

Coming from Dublin to Gorey there is 09.40 , 13.36, 16.37, 17.36 and 18.38 even in the southbound direction I would like to see a train at 11.30 and 15.30 If I had the chance to change the timetable I would have a 9.30Rosslare,12.30Rosslare,15.00Rosslare,16.30Ross lare,17.30Gorey and 19.00Rosslare But that's just me;)

[Inniskeen]

Moving the 7.33 Connolly-Rosslare back to 9.40 makes more sense to cater for the leisure passengers,I know myself as I left Dublin on the 9.30 bus service a few times that piece of news is great.

Coming from Gorey in the morning to Dublin,I assume the 05.55 is still operating,then you have 06.45,08.25,14.01,19.04 if i'm reading the online draft correctly. To me there still appears to be a huge gap between 8.25 to 4.01 and 19.04 ultimately i would also like a train at 11am and 16.30 to Dublin.

Coming from Dublin to Gorey there is 09.40 , 13.36, 16.37, 17.36 and 18.38 even in the southbound direction I would like to see a train at 11.30 and 15.30 If I had the chance to change the timetable I would have a 9.30Rosslare,12.30Rosslare,15.00Rosslare,16.30Ross lare,17.30Gorey and 19.00Rosslare But that's just me;)

Without entering too deeply into the discussion as to the number and distribution of trains on the Wexford/Rosslare line (An hourly service is probably practical and desireable with a last train at say 2040), one would have to ask why the timetable draft has five trains, of which only two depart at the same time past the hour, but nonethess all within a few minutes of the same number of minutes past the hour. Weird ! Why not 0940, 1340, 1640, 1740 and 1840.

[KSW]

Without entering too deeply into the discussion as to the number and distribution of trains on the Wexford/Rosslare line (An hourly service is probably practical and desireable with a last train at say 2040), one would have to ask why the timetable draft has five trains, of which only two depart at the same time past the hour, but nonethess all within a few minutes of the same number of minutes past the hour. Weird ! Why not 0940, 1340, 1640, 1740 and 1840.

I agree with you, having a time on a timetale that says 16.38 17.38 and 18.38 be alot better with an extra 2mins added to make it 16.40 17.40 and 18.40 plus it will give a DART train that little 2minutes to travel extra to the next station. The 16.38 now extends to rosslare,the 17.38 goes to wexford.I think turning the 18.38 into the last 19.30 to rosslare.plus giving an 2hour gap from the 17.38 again it makes sense to me:)

[JayneM]

I have to say as a Donabate communter I am raging about the removal of the 18.40, a lot of people use it and if it is taken off it will mean when I get out of work at 6 - 6.15, depending on how quickly I get a Luas, by the time I get to Connolly I will have to wait an hour for the next train.

As a former Belfast line commuter I can understand that Irish Rail want to ease delays on the Enterprise, but removing a service verus shaving a few minutes off an already highly inefficient service doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me.

[Alan French]

Copy of my submission to the timetable review: DART.

The peak hour frequency on the south side was reduced at the last timetable change, and this has caused overcrowding at certain times. The timetable needs a complete re-structuring at this time of day. Failing that, the ICR from the Rosslare line should be put to use, now that it is idle till 09.40, and between 15.45 and 18.35 (see my comments on the Rosslare line). After talking to commuters from Bray, I reckon that (if Bray has the highest priority for this train) it should leave Bray about 08.15 and precede the 08.37 from Dun Laoghaire (which would run a few minutes later). This is because the two previous trains from Bray come from further south and are already full on reaching Bray. As I said before, this train would run non-stop most of the way, because of capacity limitations. It wouldn’t actually be any faster. Remember – this line had a five-minute frequency at peak times a few years ago.

For the off-peak services, the move towards regular-interval working is a good one; I have become used to remembering which minutes past the hour that trains leave my local station. But for this to work, there must be no gaps. Remember that the whole advantage of regular-interval working is that customers don’t need to look up the timetable. Once there are gaps, this advantage is lost. Individual train times may be on the late side compared with the standard pattern, but not on the early side.

The most glaring omission is between 21.55 and 22.34 from Connolly to Bray, a gap of 39 minutes in what is generally a service every 15 minutes. There are two other half-hour gaps in each direction in the daytime on Saturdays. Has anyone noticed that there is also a gap in the no. 7 buses to Dun Laoghaire between 21.30 and 22.00? This bus runs less frequently in the late evenings, and the danger is that each company will think that the other is there as a fall-back option for passengers, when in fact both have a gap at the same time.
So I recommend the following changes:
1. Extend the 21.45 Howth-Connolly to run to Bray.
2. 09.55 and 14.55 Bray-Howth and 11.15 and 16.15 Howth-Bray to run on Saturdays.
Other changes to make the Howth and Malahide service more regular (which you have stated as an aim in the introduction to the draft timetable):
3. On Saturday s, 09.30 and 14.30 Greystones-Howth and 15.10 Bray-Howth run to Malahide instead, as on Mon-Fri. The first two of these are made practical by no. 2 above.
4. On Saturday s, 11.00, 16.00 and 16.30 from Howth run from Malahide instead, as on Mon-Fri (consequent on no. 3 above). See no. 7 for comments on the 16.00.
5. Stop the 10.57 Pearse-Drogheda at Clongriffin. The 10.47 departure from Pearse runs to Howth instead of Malahide, so the Drogheda train takes up the position in the regular pattern.
6. 10.45 Dundalk-Connolly stops at Clongriffin and Howth Junction. There is no 11.30 from Malahide, and passengers turning up at 11.30 catch the Dundalk train at 11.44. So there shouldn’t be an hour-long gap for Clongriffin passengers.
7. The slot at 16.00 from Malahide gets displaced to 16.05 because the Enterprise is coming through. The 15.52 (15.15 from Drogheda) is too early for the regular pattern, so the 16.05 (which should run on Saturdays as well) takes up this role. Can you find a way of stopping it at Portmarnock and Clongriffin? On Mon-Fri it could take up the path of the 16.31 Connolly-Dun Laoghaire, and the train starting duty at Connolly could run the 16.25 to Bray, which won’t now be held up if the Enterprise is late.
8. Trains departing from Bray from 17.40 to 19.10 inclusive can run to the opposite destination (Howth/Malahide). This will make the minutes past the hour the same as those in the daytime and in the later evening. Similarly, 19.00 to 20.30 from Howth or Malahide can come from the opposite starting point. If this can’t be done because of the 19.00 to Belfast, then make this change starting with the 18.25 from Bray, and stop the 19.13 Pearse-Drogheda at Clongriffin. Notice that when the Enterprise leaves on the hour (as in 11.00 or 19.00), it gets in the way of the regular pattern for Malahide trains.

DART on Sundays.
The 20-minute pattern between Howth Junction and Bray is maintained fairly well for the middle part of the day, but we could all do with the 20-minute frequency that applied in the late evenings until a few years ago. In the absence of that, the service remains half-hourly, so it is important that there are no exceptions on the early side. Therefore the 22.15 Greystones-Howth should run 5 minutes later, so as to leave Bray at 30 minutes past the hour, as the other evening train do.

It ought to go without saying that the 17.45 Howth-Bray should stop at Killiney and Shankill. As it is, it makes a gap in the 20-minute pattern that applies during the day. This non-stop run from Dalkey dates from December 2005, when it was to clear a path for the following Rosslare train. But since 2007, the gap between these trains has been getting wider. Now, if the train was to serve all stations, it would arrive in Bray at 18.53, a full 10 minutes ahead of the Rosslare train. And yet it is proposed to perpetuate this anomaly.

In the late evening, the layovers at Howth and Malahide are very long – perhaps there is scope to improve efficiency here. The biggest anomaly is in southbound departures from Malahide. There are trains at 18.05, 18.21 and 18.45, then a gap till two come together at 20.10 and 20.21. And yet a northbound train terminates at Malahide at 19.27, only to wait till 20.10 to return to Bray, following six minutes behind a train from Howth. This should be re-timed to about 19.45. The 19.45 Drogheda-Pearse already stops at Clongriffin, so this station won’t lose out.

[Jamie2k9]

Failing that, the ICR from the Rosslare line should be put to use, now that it is idle till 09.40, and between 15.45 and 18.35 (see my comments on the Rosslare line)

They may do maintence of the ICR before 9:40 departure. I prosume the Connolly ICR still have to go to Portlaoise?

[Inniskeen]

10.45 Dundalk-Connolly stops at Clongriffin and Howth Junction. There is no 11.30 from Malahide, and passengers turning up at 11.30 catch the Dundalk train at 11.44. So there shouldn’t be an hour-long gap for Clongriffin passengers.




If longer distance services are to be used to serve inner suburban stations then already unattractive journey times become even less attractive. Why would passengers from Dundalk, Drogheda, Laytown etc be attracted to rail travel if the train offers no advantage in terms of cost, comfort or journey time. The combination of a suburban railcar, intercity fare structure and hopelessly uncompetitive journey times just doesn't cut it I am afraid.

This issue is even more of a problem on the southside. While the half-hourly DART service to Greystones looks great on paper, the consequences for longer distance commuters has been catastrophic as in the absence of overtaking facilities, trains travelling to stations south of Greystones must closely follow DART services. The DART to Greystones is really really slow and barely averages 20 mph from the city centre - hence services to/from stations south of Greystones are hopelessly uncompetitive with the alternatives.




Notice that when the Enterprise leaves on the hour (as in 11.00 or 19.00), it gets in the way of the regular pattern for Malahide trains.




Even the most casual glance at the time table suggests that the 1100 and 1900 to Belfast should depart at 1105 and 1905 to avoid unecessarily encountering adverse signals as early as Clontarf Road/Killester. Yes there are departures for Sligo at 1105 and 1905 - these (and all Sligo departures) should leave at xx07 and spend less time waiting outside Maynooth station.

[James Howard]

Yes there are departures for Sligo at 1105 and 1905 - these (and all Sligo departures) should leave at xx07 and spend less time waiting outside Maynooth station.

That's crazy talk. Don't you realise that this might cause a reduction in journey time? We couldn't have this - journey times must always increase. In any case, my day wouldn't be complete without spending 10 minutes sitting outside of Maynooth.

The intercity journey time to Maynooth is particularly stupid. This 20 mile non-stop run run is generally given 30 minutes on the timetable. The 0545 Sligo to Connolly has 38 minutes for this section although it does stop at Drumcondra. I have seen the 1905 down-train do this section in under 20 minutes when running late.

[Mark Gleeson]

Moving the departure to xx:07 does make a degree of sense and does not block any other services.

While it might be optics it does claw back minutes and every minute counts

[Colm Moore]

But can't Sligo and Belfast trains depart at the same time, albeit on adjacent tracks?

[Mark Gleeson]

Provided the Sligo train departs off platform 4 you can depart Belfast off platforms 1-3 without a problem provided the next Southbound train is held at East Wall Rd junction

[Inniskeen]

But can't Sligo and Belfast trains depart at the same time, albeit on adjacent tracks?

Yes they can, but it is very very slow due to the manner in which it is signalled. The Belfast train has to depart "wrong line". Sequential departure via the normal running line works much better.

[Mark Gleeson]

All routes through Connolly are fully reversible so it doesn't matter

[Alan French]

That's a fair point about outer-suburban trains having too many stops. There is an element of the makeshift about my proposals because we are dealing with things that can be done in the immediate future. I had treated the Enterprise times as fixed.
So I have re-examined that, and I sent the following to IR today:

The problems that arise in keeping regular intervals with the DART trains to Malahide (see my comments on the DART, sent yesterday) are caused by the Enterprise getting in the way. If the Enterprise departs from Connolly at 05, 20, 35 or 50 past the hour, there is no interference with suburban trains. Two northbound Enterprise trains don’t comply with this; how about deferring them by a few minutes?
The problem arises with the 11.00 and 19.00 from Dublin. Deferring them for a few minutes would risk delaying the 12.45 and 20.45 Portadown-Bangor, but only by a couple of minutes. In the latter case, the regular-interval service has ended by this time of the evening.
Southbound, the ideal arrival is on the exact quarter-hour. The trickiest one is the 14.10 from Belfast, which is right behind the 13.45 Belfast Central-Portadown, so it can’t run any earlier, and it ends up delaying a 16.00 departure from Malahide till 16.05, with the consequent loss of stops needed to make up time.
Ends.

The suggestion about the DART to Greystones being too slow is valid, but not much can be done about it at present. I certainly wouldn't recommend cutting stops from the existing trains. But presumably you sent it to IR as one of those things that they can't do now, but should bear in mind for the future.

I have also sent this postscript to IR:
A couple of points about diesel trains operating in the DART area: The 09.20 and 10.20 from Bray to Drogheda are to be cancelled between Bray and Pearse. Now, I know there are plenty of other trains around that time, but I notice that there are still five southbound diesel trains terminating at Bray in the morning. Only one of these (09.05) is to return on service in the new timetable. Whatever time the others are scheduled to return, some at least should run on service rather than empty. It’s a busy enough time of the day.
This gives an option of a faster journey time from Bray to Dublin. However, commuters from Shankill, Killiney and Dalkey will miss the stops on the 09.05 from Bray.

[Inniskeen]

All routes through Connolly are fully reversible so it doesn't matter

That may be so, but a northbound train crossing from the southbound line to the northbound line at East Wall Junction is heavily approach controlled which typically carries a time penalty of between 1½ to 2 minutes. As a consequence it would be more efficient for a 1905 to Belfast to simply wait for the 1905 to Sligo to clear the outbound Belfast line rather than travel "wrong line". The better solution though, I think, is to defer all Sligo departures to xx:07 as previosly discussed.

[paddyb180285]

I have also sent this postscript to IR:
A couple of points about diesel trains operating in the DART area: The 09.20 and 10.20 from Bray to Drogheda are to be cancelled between Bray and Pearse. Now, I know there are plenty of other trains around that time, but I notice that there are still five southbound diesel trains terminating at Bray in the morning. Only one of these (09.05) is to return on service in the new timetable. Whatever time the others are scheduled to return, some at least should run on service rather than empty. It’s a busy enough time of the day.
This gives an option of a faster journey time from Bray to Dublin. However, commuters from Shankill, Killiney and Dalkey will miss the stops on the 09.05 from Bray.

I couldn't agree with you more. I sent the following feedback to them a couple of weeks ago or whenever the Draft New Timetables from the Connolly side where published:

I notice that the Bray-Balbriggan Commuter service is being pulled from Shankill, Killiney and Dalkey in the Draft New Timetable. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this decision as such services cut the waiting time between DART's in half in the morning and evening peak times.

At peak times, a 15 minute wait is way too much given that there are a good few Commuters operating as far as Bray only. At present, all (bar one)of these services run non-stop between Dun Laoghaire and Bray skipping stations such as Dalkey which suffer severe over-crowding at peak times.

Furthermore, I frequently notice a lot of other Commuter services from Bray to Maynooth/Drogheda and vice versa cruising along between Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. Some of these services have excessive padding because they are sandwiched between two DART's.

As such, would it not make sense to have stations such as Dalkey and Killiney added to the list of stops where excessive timetable padding could be consolidated for these extra stops. This would remove the need for extra DART's and make better use of the current services.

[Mark Gleeson]

I understand some of the commuter trains will stay in Bray out of service all day for the evening peak saving a lot of trouble.

A commuter train calling all stops Bray - Pearse is at least 10 minutes slower than a DART and the fuel cost is crazy for stop/start

[Inniskeen]

While I am sure a DART is more energy efficient than a diesel, I am not so sure that the journey time differential would be as great as you suggest.

If you go back to the late 1950s, the journey time (all stops) Bray to Westland Row was 45 minutes compared to today's 39 minutes. Admittedly there are now two additional stations (Shankill and Grand Canal Dock), but then diesel performance in the 1950s hardly matches today's much more advanced machines.

Certainly on the northside, when modern diesel railcars were substituted for DARTs on a number of occasions in the mid 1990s, the actual diesel journey time was less than the advertised DART journey time, largely because the diesel driver was not forced to crawl up to restrictive signals positioned just beyond a station he was stopping at in any case.

Un-necessarily degraded DART performance with consequent journey time penalty is experienced on the southside at Booterstown, Sydney Parade, Sandymount, Lansdowne Road, Bray etc etc ...

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a massive performance difference. There was a Sunday morning Dun Laoghaire Drogheda train which called all stops. It routinely was 5 minutes down against published time by Pearse which was longer than a DART time

The old times were based on a railway were absolute priority was granted at all level crossings, no delays due congestion plus there was a tendency to be a bit generous with the rules and speed limits. Trains ploughing through Merrion Gates was a routine event.

We have submitted to the NTA 2030 vision that the level of priority granted to DART and Luas services be increased significantly at crossings. This would take minutes to implement and save hours literally on a daily basis. The DART is assigned level 6, the lowest level.

Each stop costs minimum 75 seconds, 150 seconds, add 2 minutes for the level crossings and further minute for the ATP. The net time would be 35 minutes vs 45 minutes

The northside is a different animal as the line speed is 70mph, DART is limited to 60mph and the gaps between stations are significantly longer than on the southside. I'd still bet money on a DART in rush hour conditions winning an all stops race. Do the numbers on running costs and the DART wins by a large margin. There was an assessment in the DART business case which compares diesel vs electric times which shows a significant time saving.

[Inniskeen]

There is a massive performance difference. There was a Sunday morning Dun Laoghaire Drogheda train which called all stops. It routinely was 5 minutes down against published time by Pearse which was longer than a DART time

The old times were based on a railway were absolute priority was granted at all level crossings, no delays due congestion plus there was a tendency to be a bit generous with the rules and speed limits. Trains ploughing through Merrion Gates was a routine event.

We have submitted to the NTA 2030 vision that the level of priority granted to DART and Luas services be increased significantly at crossings. This would take minutes to implement and save hours literally on a daily basis. The DART is assigned level 6, the lowest level.

Each stop costs minimum 75 seconds, 150 seconds, add 2 minutes for the level crossings and further minute for the ATP. The net time would be 35 minutes vs 45 minutes

The northside is a different animal as the line speed is 70mph, DART is limited to 60mph and the gaps between stations are significantly longer than on the southside. I'd still bet money on a DART in rush hour conditions winning an all stops race. Do the numbers on running costs and the DART wins by a large margin. There was an assessment in the DART business case which compares diesel vs electric times which shows a significant time saving.

No question, in theory an electric service should deliver a massive performance boost when compared with a diesel operation, especially for a service making frequent stops. DART does not generally deliver anything close to the expected bonus due primarily to the very crude nature of the control system, lazy scheduling and ridiculously extended station times. Also the nature of the ATP means that one DART closely following another unnecessarily looses significant amounts of time crawling into stations against a danger signal located beyond the end of the platform. For this reason alone, the frequecies being quoted for the city centre re-signalling (20 trains per direction per hour) is fantasy land stuff.

DART performance (due to the ATP) is de-facto inferior to diesel performance between Bray and Greystones (by several minutes), entering Bray southbound, entering either platform at Malahide (by about 1 minute), between Howth and Howth Junction (1½ to 2 minutes) and through the south side level crossings.

By any measure current DART performance is poor with journey times about 25% longer now than when the service was initially introduced. Bray/Connolly, for instance, originally took 36 minutes and now takes 44 minutes -the only differnce being an additional stop at Grand Canal Dock. While the length of DART trains has increased, cameras are provided to assist drivers in operating the doors and buzzers have been provided to alert passengers to stand clear. In general DART loadings are not especially heavy and it is rare to experience delays entering and exiting the trains due to onboard congestion - hence this is not a valid factor in diminished performane.

DART never had priority at the level crossings largely because signal spacing is set up for mainline trains operating at line speed, something which nowadays almost never happens due to the way in which timetables are designed. Trains to and from Rosslare crawl throgh the level crossngs even on the rare occasions when there is not a DART immediately ahead.

[Eddie]

Isn't the problem here that 8 darts an hour need to pass each level crossing?

I'm no technical expert on what triggers level crossing gates to drop, but they would appear to lower based on distance from a crossing, even though there could be a station to stop at beforehand. So gates can be closed for several minutes before a train arrives. If 8 trains an hour pass by (4 in each direction), I'd estimate gates could potentially be down around half an hour out of every hour.

A system where the the dart driver can request the gates to be lowered between the station they're at and the next dart station would seem to me to give the advantages of:

reducing the time the gates are down, leaving traffic more time to cross
natural priority when they are ready to go.


Obviously, an even better alternative is to build bridges / tunnels and do away with the crossings altogether, but this may not be given a huge priority at the current time.

[Mark Gleeson]

The level crossing system is fully automated, the priority setting simply adjusts the trigger point for each level crossing

So at priority 1 (highest) the gates will drop in sufficient time for a train traveling at full line speed to pass full green signals all the way. This is the default on all crossings on the intercity network

On DART the system requests the gates down in such a way that the DART can always make forward progress, but will frequently be restricted as a yellow instead of green signal will be shown. Some minor tweaks could deliver savings.

[Traincustomer]

Consultation period over - section now gone from website. (was removed either earlier today or yesterday - most likely today).

The proposals got a decent five and a half weeks airing.

So approximately early/mid-September and October for notification and coming into effect of new timetable respectively?

[Mark Gleeson]

Expect posters to go up at stations in the next week

Timetable should go live last week September start October

Several of the changes requested have been made

[paddyb180285]

Expect posters to go up at stations in the next week

Timetable should go live last week September start October

I went ahead and checked the trains up to the 27th of December. I see that they have updated the 25th and 26th of December to reflect that no services operate on Christmas or Stephen's Day. Is the official new timetable live on the website?

Several of the changes requested have been made

What requested changes have been made?

[Mark Gleeson]

The timetable has not been loaded onto the website

The online timetable rolls forward continually and should not be taken as a indication of a timetable change date

Given Irish Rail is about to launch a new website and journey planner chances are it will go live with the new timetable if we are lucky

[Paddyphillips]

The new time table is up asnd the 18:40 has not changed :) looks like the did
listen to the feedback

[KSW]

Its great all the trains from Dublin are going Wexford

Its also great the 05.55 and 06.45 have not changed. Delighted with 08.24 service get into Dublin just after 10am. But 5 and half hours later for the next train (14.01) and another 5hours for the next and last (19.03)

Moving the 07.30 to 09.40 makes alot more sense. Still cant understand why IE does not follow the pattern of 40 mins past the hour. 13.40/16.40/17.40/18.40 For me I think a train leaving its terminus at a certain 8min after the half past is strange. Rosslare to Dublin that does not happen.

Still cant see any change to this timetable except all trains going from Dublin to Wexford.There is five services you could mess with I'd change to 09.30/13.30/15.30/17.30 and 19.30!!!!