Sail & Rail

[markpb]

I'm thinking about travelling to London next week and since it's short notice, I've been checking out BE and S&R instead of flying. Perhaps I'm reading the site wrong but it looks like the Sail & Rail option is an hour slower than the bus?

BE leave Dublin at 20.15 and arrive in Victoria at 08.45
Stena leave Dublin at 19.45 and arrive in Euston at 08.36

Am I missing something?

[ThomasJ]

Nah what's more surprising is the length of the bus journey but then again it goes via Birmingham

There is a gap of nearly 4 hours between the arrival of the ferry and the departure of the train in holyhead that's why the train option takes so long.

[Traincustomer]

This may not be a lot of use especially if one doesn't have a lot of time so I'm posting it on the offchance it may be of interest/help. (I'm aware that Dublin to London is faster the traditional route via Dublin/Dún Laoghaire).

Unlike Holyhead, Rosslare offers an overnight service in the continuous sense each way seven days a week i.e. no prolonged wait of circa four hours for the train. Just a short wait of around half an hour from the time one disembarks the ship (Stena) to the time the train can be boarded.

A through ticket from Connolly to London via Rosslare can be purchased but as most readers of this forum probably know few trains actually connect to/from the ferries. The major disbenefit is getting from Dublin to Rosslare. The last train to connect with the 2115 sailing is the 1330 ex Connolly (not an option unless one wants to enjoy a long meal/few hours in a Rosslare pub/hotel). One could though take the 1630 Connolly to Wexford train (arr. Wexford 1904) and catch a Bus Éireann coach immediately outside the station to the steps of Rosslare ferry terminal. Coaches at 1920 and 2010. Journey scheduled to take 30 mins but in practice is achieved in several minutes less (coincidentally same coaches depart from Busáras at 1630 and 1730 respectively). Dublin-Rosslare Harbour 16.65 e single online. Wexford-Rosslare Harbour 5 euro single onboard.

There is a cafe in the terminal and the Stena Europe usually commences boarding around 2015. The onward train leaves Fishguard at 0150 (but available to board before half one). At Swansea it's necessary to change onto a First Great Western High Speed Train which will be open and ready to board at an adjoining platform. Arrival at Paddington is 0732.

If one left Dublin by coach at 1730 the overall journey via Rosslare is only about an hour longer than via Holyhead and more comfortable as there's no prolonged waiting around.

(The return is at 2015 ex Paddington, arriving Rosslare Harbour 0615 and Dublin train at 0750).

[Eddie]

I did the overnight trip once in the days when there was a 9.30pm HSS service from Dun Laoghaire which got into Holyhead about 11.45pm, and even then there was a 2 hour wait for the 1.50am departure to Birmingham, which took about 3 hours. Transferring to the first train from Birmingham at about 5.30am, got you into Euston at 7.30am, but the train would have been packed with London commuters. So now it's only an hour longer and I'd say the first direct service from Holyhead to London at about 4.30am would be pleasant enough once you're on it.

If you've ever got time to waste in Holyhead during the day, may be worth doing a "reckie" and finding a patch of grass on the hill nearby the port, with a view to taking a sleeping bag, a bivvie bag and an alarm clock and getting a few hours shut eye. Not very sophisticated, but with a bit of sleep there, and a bit more on the train and you'll almost be as refreshed as you would if you'd got the first flight over there. And there's probably a shower somewhere in Euston station so you're ready for the day.

There are about 4 direct services from Holyhead to London between about 4.30am and 9.30am - it's a shame the 2.15am Stena service from Dublin port to Holyhead doesn't take foot passengers and make a good connection with one of them.

On the other hand with the coach at least you're not having to get on and off, and you can just fall asleep, and wake up in London. I'd say it would be awful if it was packed though - I'd hate to be forced to be in an aisle seat next to someone I didn't know.

[markpb]

Thanks for the replies folks. I think I'll just take the bus, it's slightly cheaper and, like Eddie says, I don't have to wait or change - I can just get on and sleep. It's a pity the sail/rail connection isn't better but I guess the demand isn't there.

[Eddie]

Let us know how you get on...

[markpb]

I did the trip from Dublin to London by Eurolines last night. Left Busaras a few minutes late so we pretty much drove straight onto the ship. Between the fog and a passenger who had trouble clearing immigration in Holyhead, we didn't leave there until around 2am after berthing at 12.45ish.

Traffic was predictably lousy approaching London so instead of arriving at Victoria at 8.45, it was closer to 10.15. Overall not too bad, not sure I'd do it again but it was interesting nonetheless.

A few points:

- The ticketing system offered a choice of economy or standard but didn't explain what they meant. I opted for standard but since neither the seats on the bus nor on the ship were assigned, I can't figure out what it's for.

- When you get off the ship at Holyhead, you have to get on the bus, drive for five minutes, get back off the bus, take your bags with you and queue up to get through immigration. Giant waste of time, especially having to bring your checked luggage with you but I guess there's not much Eurolines can do about that.

- Traffic around London is much worse than I imagined. I think our first stop (after Luton) was Golders Green so I'd imagine it would have been faster to get off there and get the tube the rest of the way.

- Seats aren't assigned on the bus so don't expect to get the same seat either side of the sailing.

- It was much busier than I expected, the bus was about 85% full although a lot of people got off at Birmingham.

[Traincustomer]

Just been reading the previous interesting post about the Eurolines journey.

Having observed the London coach at Busáras on numerous occasions (whilst waiting for a provincial bus) it has been my experience that it being close to full is the regular situation whereas its counterpart to Leeds is not as busy but nonetheless used. I've very rarely used the London coach but on numerous occasions have used the Dublin-Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds one - it gives a through journey (not possible by rail). Though it's always my experience that the London coach gets priority at Holyhead's immigration check which is fair enough on account of the higher numbers and longer journey.

Bus Éireann employ a supervisor/inspector at Holyhead to oversee things. Same member of staff I understand will also oversee any passengers joining at Holyhead (e.g. someone travelling Holyhead to Manchester). This is why after the immigration check is complete the coach usually drives around to the Eurolines stop in the Port Bus Station.

The economy fare has a limited allocation and applies to passengers who book a week or more prior to travel but the disadvantage is that no refunds or amendments are allowed. The Bus Éireann e-ticketing for this service is a fairly recent thing but I fully agree the ticket types need to be explained better.

Like SailRail, it is possible to purchase an Eurolines ticket that commences from most provincial towns in Éire to your destination town/city in Britain. Bus Éireann market Eurolines reasonably well.

That London traffic was horrendous.

A thought I had is that perhaps UK immigration could take place at the ports on this side. Pretty much like the US clearance at Dublin Airport. But on second thoughts there may not be much merit in doing so - it's time on one side or the other regardless!

An item of good news on the SailRail front is that: Irish Ferries are soon to introduce an online booking system for SailRail ex Éire to Britain. The facility is promoted in their 2011 brochure but not up and running yet.

[ThomasJ]

Thanks for the information cavanrailbus.

It will be interesting to see how this new 01:30 ex holyhead fairs, where will it go to?

Also regards the evening stena sailing ex Dublin take footpassengers?

[Colm Moore]

- When you get off the ship at Holyhead, you have to get on the bus, drive for five minutes, get back off the bus, take your bags with you and queue up to get through immigration. Giant waste of time, especially having to bring your checked luggage with you but I guess there's not much Eurolines can do about that.The time I used it, the bus was waved through customs/immigration on the way to London and on the way back, there was a superficial immigration check that lasted all of about 2 minutes for the entire (full) bus - half that time dedicated to a small group of Germans.

- Seats aren't assigned on the bus so don't expect to get the same seat either side of the sailing.But woe betide anyone who takes someone else's seat! :)

Having observed the London coach at Busáras on numerous occasions (whilst waiting for a provincial bus) it has been my experience that it being close to full is the regular situation whereas its counterpart to Leeds is not as busy but nonetheless used. Depending on demand, additional buses will be provided, e.g. a bus that does Holyhead-London express without a Birmingham stop and one that does stop.

A thought I had is that perhaps UK immigration could take place at the ports on this side. Pretty much like the US clearance at Dublin Airport. But on second thoughts there may not be much merit in doing so - it's time on one side or the other regardless!Actually, you will find some UK immigration officers here and some Irish ones in the UK. they tend to do random stops of people boarding as opposed to checking everyone. I wonder if they could do the immigration on the ship. I'm not sure if its practical.

[markpb]

The economy fare has a limited allocation and applies to passengers who book a week or more prior to travel but the disadvantage is that no refunds or amendments are allowed. The Bus Éireann e-ticketing for this service is a fairly recent thing but I fully agree the ticket types need to be explained better.

Thanks for explaining that!

Good news on the new train time, it definitely makes it a viable alternative but only if it goes direct to London.

[Traincustomer]

Glad my bits were of some interest.

I'm afraid I don't know the destination of the new circa 0130 train ex Holyhead but understand it to be an Arriva Trains Wales train thereby eliminating a direct service to Euston. I suspect it may be too early to head down The Marches line to Cardiff so Birmingham may be a reasonable guess at to its destination. Another possible destination is Manchester Airport as it could also pick-up from key North Wales stops for there. The first Crewe to Euston train is currently the 0536 (arr. 0728) Virgin Trains so even a 0135 departure from Holyhead will mean around an hour's wait at Crewe. Not perfect but still it's much better than the present lack of a connection.

On the Eurolines issue - several auxiliary coaches were provided at the time of the volcanic ash.

Liked that idea Colm of doing the immigration onboard the ship. Certainly saves time but agree with the practicalities being questionable. For instance, where would it be carried out onboard and would there be two sittings? I tend to like to watch the ship sail and dock as would others and if one needed to get a meal immediately upon boarding it wouldn't be bnice to endure a check first.

Yep, the 0820 and 2115 Stena Line sailings ex Dublin Port carry foot passengers though the 0215 and 1600 don't.

[Eddie]

That's great news about the 1.30am train. Presumably Stena and IF jointly have enough clout to put pressure on the train companies to operate a service.

I would guess it goes back to wherever the incoming connecting train for the night-time ferries originates from. It wouldn't surprise me if this currently goes back empty at present.

Won't be trying that London coach service in a hurry - thanks for the report by the way - the delays and full coach make it sound very unappealing.

[markpb]

Won't be trying that London coach service in a hurry - thanks for the report by the way - the delays and full coach make it sound very unappealing.

I forgot to mention, on my way back (ex-London at 1750, ten mins ahead of schedule) there were only 10 of us on the coach leaving London and less than 20 leaving Birmingham so there were two seats per person. We got held up quite a bit leaving London but managed to make good time on the M1 and M6 so we sat in Corley for 1h10. After that, we arrived at Holyhead about 5 minutes before boarding started so I guess they timed the break just right.

We had to go through again C&I at Holyhead but since it was much quieter (we were the last coach instead of the first), it didn't take very long.

[quartz]

For those of us booking in the UK, the Sail & Rail website has now disappeared and the previous dedicated call centre is no more. Instead customers are redirected to the main Arriva Trains Wales booking call centre (non-UK based) or website.

I made a booking using the old S&R call centre just last week. This UK-based call centre was excellent and the staff were experts in the service.

Based on my first experience of using it this week, I am very disappointed. I spoke with an agent who initially told me I needed to ring the previous S&R booking number. When I explained it no longer existed, she tried to make a booking for me. However she was totally unfamiliar with the service and was unable to find my Irish destination on her system. She then suggested I check the thetrainline.com website. Although Arriva Trains Wales and thetrainline.com websites now allow standard Sail & Rail journeys, neither include all Irish mainline train stations in their systems. I will now have to visit a mainline station to book my ticket!

Can anyone tell me if through journeys can be booked on the Fishguard – Rosslare route; for example, Cardiff via Rosslare to Dublin? I read somewhere that onward trains from Rosslare are not allowed on S&R tickets, despite it being possible to book trains from any UK station to any Irish station?

Although I thought there may be changes to S&R after Deutsche Bahn bought the Arriva group, I am surprised at the lack of any publicity on the changes to the booking systems and I also note that a price differential has appeared whereby the fast ferry is now more expensive than the conventional one.

[Thomas Ralph]

That's rather wearisome. Especially the recommendation to use thetrainline.com, which charges a booking fee that can be avoided by using the train operating companies' websites (even the ones that use thetrainline's engine!) I just went to East Midlands Train and had no hassle picking out a journey from London to Cork.

Do be aware that not all Irish stations are available for bookings (nor have they ever been). The National Rail system only includes major Intercity stations, and Boyle. You can normally book somewhere a stop or two later, but you're out of luck if you want to book somewhere between Ennis and Athenry, or Carrigtwohill or Midleton. There is a list of equivalencies in the National Fares Manual stating that if you want to go to X, use the fare to Y instead, but this requires the clerk to (a) know the list exists and (b) know how to issue a manual fare; most don't.

So what station were you trying to book to?

[Colm Moore]

Is it like the situation with NIR selling beyond Connolly, where the ticket is issued to the next zone boundary instead of every single stop?

[Mark Gleeson]

Yes.

Under rail sail the country is divided into zones and priced accordingly. IE issued sail-rail on old style manual CIV ticket stock so its handwritten so no problems there.

The UK system is automatic so the station has to be in the system which can cause problems

Irish Rail's new journey planner can handle sail-rail journeys with comprehensive itinerary. Wether or not that will be switched on is another question.

[quartz]

That's rather wearisome. Especially the recommendation to use thetrainline.com, which charges a booking fee that can be avoided by using the train operating companies' websites (even the ones that use thetrainline's engine!) I just went to East Midlands Train and had no hassle picking out a journey from London to Cork.

Do be aware that not all Irish stations are available for bookings (nor have they ever been). The National Rail system only includes major Intercity stations, and Boyle. You can normally book somewhere a stop or two later, but you're out of luck if you want to book somewhere between Ennis and Athenry, or Carrigtwohill or Midleton. There is a list of equivalencies in the National Fares Manual stating that if you want to go to X, use the fare to Y instead, but this requires the clerk to (a) know the list exists and (b) know how to issue a manual fare; most don't.

So what station were you trying to book to?

Cardiff Bay (dep @ 21:42) to Dundalk via Fishguard/Rosslare on the over night ferry! Nationalrail.co.uk shows the itinerary but the question is whether it can be booked as a single journey? If not, I need to buy the Irish leg from Rosslare seperately which significantly adds to the cost of the journey.

[Mark Gleeson]

That journey should be possible

Tight connection at Connolly to get the Belfast train

[Thomas Ralph]

S&R tickets involving Fishguard don't appear to exist on the GB ticketing system.

[Mark Gleeson]

Best option is then to call Stena and book manually through them.

If Stena says no let me know and I'll follow up with the Stena route director for Rosslare - Fishguard

[Eddie]

2. An "overnight" train ex Holyhead circa 0130 is to be reintroduced in the new timetable from May 22nd. This will give a connection out of both sailings from Dublin Port viz. the 2055 hrs. Irish Ferries Ulysses (arr. 0020) and 2115 hrs. Stena Line Stena Adventurer (arr 0030) so no longer will there be a need for a prolonged wait for the first train at 0425.

Where did you hear this? I've plugged the time and date on www.thetrainline.com and nothing new is coming up yet for after 22 May.

[Traincustomer]

I was told it in good faith and legitimately as a result of representations I've made on the SailRail issue since 2009. I do not wish to go posting details of Manager X in Company Z type of stuff here other than to say I'm just a humble user and not party to any inner workings but wouldn't have been told this in the correspondence I received if it wasn't true and going to happen.
Timetable should be out in next few weeks which will give exact details.
Hope this reply doesn't come across as being short as it's not intended to be:)

[Thomas Ralph]

Where did you hear this? I've plugged the time and date on www.thetrainline.com and nothing new is coming up yet for after 22 May.

I recommend not using that website as it charges more than booking through any train operating company's site.

Having said that, www.nationalrail.co.uk isn't finding it either. It may not have been loaded into the system yet.

[Mark Gleeson]

The UK system normally loads 8-12 weeks out so if its not there now its likely not going to be there. If it is, it assumes there is a connection somewhere to get you to Crewe

I would ask all posters not to post timetable information like this until there is positive proof of the exact timings and running dates, this is of even greater significance with international journeys

[ThomasJ]

Seen as though we were talking about this earlier, I saw these faqs on the arriva sailrail website
http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/SailRail/FAQs/

Which routes can I travel on?
Available for standard class travel from any station in the UK to and from Dublin via Holyhead.
Available for standard class travel from any station in the UK to and from Rosslare via Fishguard.
Available on all rail operators’ services.
Please note: if you would like to travel from the UK to Belfast via Stranraer, please visit First ScotRail’s website for further information.


Which Irish stations can I travel to?
SailRail tickets are available to most stations in Ireland.
Please note: for online sales, you can only purchase tickets to the following Irish Stations: Dublin Connolly, Dublin Ferry Port, Dublin Port Stena, Dun Laoghaire, Rosslare, Cork and Limerick. Other Irish stations will be available on the online booking system from May 2011.
If you wish to purchase SailRail tickets to other stations not listed above, please visit your nearest railway station.

[Traincustomer]

While I posted it in good faith and with a helpful intent, I have nonetheless removed a section of my original post.

[Thomas Ralph]

Just to confirm that a ticket from Cardiff Bay to Dundalk can be routed HOLYHD STENA CIV, HLYHD IRISHF CIV, or HLYHD SWIFT CIV.

However, if you pick a different journey like London Terminals to Rosslare Harbour, you're offered FSHGRD STENA CIV instead.

[Traincustomer]

Gentlemen (and ladies), the online booking facility is now available on the Irish Ferries website. It must have been uploaded yesterday or today as have been keeping a regular watch for it and it wasn't there last time.

Two very pleasing points are that (1). WRC stations and Midleton are included and (2). it allows you to book extras viz. Club Class and or a bicycle.

All Éire stations appear to be in the list though not Dublin Suburban ones which traditionally have not been available for SailRail bookings (so the likes of Dunboyne would require one to purchase a separate ticket to town/ Dún Laoghaire).*

With doom and gloom all around it's good to see this "can do" approach. Compliments due in my view to Irish Ferries for bringing this to fruition.

(* Footnote - am talking in general in paragraph 3. If booking online with Irish Ferries one would have to buy a ticket/use a pass/Smartcard from given suburban station to town. In the case of Dún Laoghaire the same but only Stena sail from there (HSS once daily at 1315 from 1st April) and no online booking.)

I thought the Stena Express would do the initial sailings but the website confirms it's the HSS (Stena Explorer).

[Eddie]

A brilliant addition, (if a long time coming). Booking over the phone was probably a poor use of staff time, and the internet will be able to handle the surges in bookings that occurred during last year's weather related incidents much better, though I am sure it required significant investment. Let's see if Stena follows...

[Traincustomer]

Here here!
My thinking is that the actual issuing of tickets will remain unchanged (i.e. the coupon tickets we've had for decades) and that the online system will simply generate a pick list of what the customer wants, to be processed by the booking clerk in the usual way.

There is no reason why Stena Line and Irish Rail shouldn't be able to do likewise. The system required would essentially be the same leading to the possibility of a centralised SailRail booking facility (just my point-and not based on any knowledge/assumption that this will ultimately happen).

My only concern is that the online system wouldn't become the exclusive means of booking SailRail. Hopefully the online system will attract a strong level of bookings but the facility for booking in person at both the ports and certain provincial railway stations needs to remain (internet great but does not suit all people at all times in all places). Too often these days the assumption is made that everyone can do everything online.

[Mark Gleeson]

A brilliant addition, (if a long time coming). Booking over the phone was probably a poor use of staff time, and the internet will be able to handle the surges in bookings that occurred during last year's weather related incidents much better, though I am sure it required significant investment. Let's see if Stena follows...

Stena already have a system but only if you are UK based

Irish Rail will sell by phone or at main booking offices (and given you have to start from a train station...) Under normal circumstances its walk up and go

Downside with online booking is it is endorsed on specific services/dates not the blank coupon Irish Rail uses

[Thomas Ralph]

I am happy to help facilitate bookings (using my UK address) for people who need assistance.

[Eddie]

Stena already have a system but only if you are UK based

True, but hardly comprehensive as you have to be going from one of 10 departure stations in the UK (out of 2400).

[quartz]

Best option is then to call Stena and book manually through them.

If Stena says no let me know and I'll follow up with the Stena route director for Rosslare - Fishguard

Hi Mark, I called Stena today and they told me they are unable to book onward travel from Rosslare on Irish Rail. They told me it had been possible in the past, but was no longer the case. Any ideas?!

[Mark Gleeson]

Hi Mark, I called Stena today and they told me they are unable to book onward travel from Rosslare on Irish Rail. They told me it had been possible in the past, but was no longer the case. Any ideas?!

Hmm, the excuse is its a one way journey. There is no way to get from Dublin to UK via Rosslare without a ridiculous layover in Rosslare

[comcor]

So was it accepted until the Rosslare-Waterford line was closed?

IIRC There was a Waterford-Rosslare train that connected to the 9pm boat and a train on from Fishguard after that arrived

[quartz]

Hmm, the excuse is its a one way journey. There is no way to get from Dublin to UK via Rosslare without a ridiculous layover in Rosslare

That is a truly bizarre reason!

I was planning to get the overnight ferry from Wales to Rosslare and then get the northbound train at 07:50. I know there’s a bit of a wait at Rosslare after the ferry arrives, but I prefer the train than BÉ.

Would IÉ be able to book that S&R journey for me on a CIV paper ticket? If not I will just have to book the IÉ train separately.

[Mark Gleeson]

If you try to get from Dublin to the UK its not easy via Rosslare.

All Sail/Rail tickets are issued under CIV rules, Irish Rail could certainly issue the ticket if the journey originated in Ireland but as it doesn't they probably can't

In this case you are probably best booking to Rosslare and then from Rosslare onwards. I did meet the route director in Fishguard last Summer so we have a contact in Stena line to chase.

[Mark Gleeson]

There are no Stena sailings on the Rosslare - Fishguard route from 29th March till 6th April

Engine on the Stena Europe has to be replaced

Strangely the SeaCat for the route is tied up in Dun Laoghaire

You could try Irish Ferries but that route is most certainly not on Sail/Rail

[quartz]

There are no Stena sailings on the Rosslare - Fishguard route from 29th March till 6th April

Engine on the Stena Europe has to be replaced

Strangely the SeaCat for the route is tied up in Dun Laoghaire

You could try Irish Ferries but that route is most certainly not on Sail/Rail

Thanks, yeah I noticed that. I'm travelling in the second week in April so should be fine.

I presume the lack of onward ticket booking from Rosslare to other IÉ stations is down to the general disinterest in S&R at IÉ? Seeing as the ferry companies and IÉ have been unable to co-ordinate timetables I should not be too surprised I guess.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not Irish Rail the problem is the UK rail operators have taken a decision that due to the poor connections at Rosslare not to offer through ticketing on that route to avoid potential issues when people find out they can't make a return journey

Irish Rail should still sell tickets through that route but only if they start in Ireland.

[ThomasJ]

Its not Irish Rail the problem is the UK rail operators have taken a decision that due to the poor connections at Rosslare not to offer through ticketing on that route to avoid potential issues when people find out they can't make a return journey

Irish Rail should still sell tickets through that route but only if they start in Ireland.

but they are right though aren't they? [uk rail operators]

if you look at the stena line timetable there are sailings at 09:00, 21:15 with an additional 15:00 from july to september

But none of the irish rail 07:30 (10:30 arr). 13:30 (16.30 arr) and 18:30 (21:30 arr) come anywhere close to connecting these sailings

I do think the rosslare-fishguard tickets should be on sale but need to come with a health warning!

[Thomas Ralph]

For reasons outlined above, you can get a booking from GB to Rosslare Harbour via Fishguard-Rosslare. Anything else will route via Holyhead-Dun Laoghaire/Dublin.

[Eddie]

I recommend not using that website as it charges more than booking through any train operating company's site.

Yes, you're right, I hadn't realised you could avoid the booking fees and credit card charges imposed by thetrainline.com by booking with the individual train operating companies.

I've just booked through London Midland for an internal UK journey and no booking fees / card charges applied.

[Mark Gleeson]

Arriva Train Wales has just confirmed that it will offer tickets via Rosslare to Irish destinations once the timetable change on the Dublin Rosslare line has been confirmed

This resolves a long standing issue

Thanks to Rail Users Ireland opposite numbers in the UK, Railfuture who made some inquiries for us in a matter of hours and got a straight answer

[Colm Moore]

Ther eis a suggestion that Fishgaurd may get 8 trains per day.

[Traincustomer]

That's right, Colm and is definite - five additional weekday trains in each direction from Mid-September. The draft timetable was indicative that some would run through to Cardiff etc..., making them infinitely more attractive than a mere Fishguard to Carmarthen shuttle.

And things are looking promising for a reopening of the erstwhile station at Fishguard & Goodwick - (around a mile up the line from Fishguard Harbour station and better located for local users).

While recognising that these additional services are primarily aimed at the local population (ferry passengers already have a daytime and night-time connecting train in both directions seven days a week), from an Irish perspective they do allow one to stop off a few hours in North Pembrokeshire. If the Stena Express is still operational on the route next Summer it will likely have a connecting train both to and from the ferry.

More info here: http://fishguardtrains.info/

[Eddie]

I've just completed a return through Fishguard, and it was amazing to see how close the station is to ship there, and that the current 2 trains a day actually coincide fully with the ship's arrivals and departures.

Meawhile at Rosslare a greater number of departures actually only connect with the evening departure and early morning arrival of the ships, and the new timetable will only improve these connections, but not create any others.

And then you have the irony that CIE actualy run Rosslare Harbour, as signified by the very outdated orange CIE symbol everywhere yet abandon the old connecting station leaving a complete eyesore, and have a 5.55pm departure that leaves just before the Stena boat gets in. Surely this state asset would be far better in private hands.

[Traincustomer]

Couldn't agree more.

Fishguard is a nice compact terminal. A model of good practice.

There are so few locations like this in 2011. Larne Harbour is the nearest example on this side with Dún Laoghaire following a bit behind and Europort...lagging far behind.

Stranraer is currently similar to Fishguard but in the Autumn Stena Line are relocating to a new port further along Loch Ryan near Cairnryan so rail-ferry integration between the main Scottish cities and NI/Dublin will very much be a thing of the past.

We often don't value what we have till it has gone!

[Eddie]

Stena Line are relocating to a new port further along Loch Ryan near Cairnryan so rail-ferry integration between the main Scottish cities and NI will very much be a thing of the past.

Stena state on their Rail & Sail leaflets that transit between Belfast station and the port is at the passengers expense, so how they'll be able to market tickets that are disconnected at both ends should make interesting reading.

[offalynice]

Hey Guys can you use your free travel pass on the sail and rail?

[Mark Gleeson]

The DSP pass is only valid within the Island of Ireland

The UK mainland does not offer anything remotely similar to the extremely generous Irish free travel regime.

[Colm Moore]

The DSP pass is only valid within the Island of Ireland... and its minor islands - they are valid on many island ferries and offer discounts on a very limited number of island air services.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/1WhatistheFreeTravelScheme.aspx

List of operators (may not be up to date): http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swi_freeschemes.aspx

[Thomas Ralph]

National Rail (UK) has announced it is ending walk-up Sail & Rail ticket sales from the new year, due to customer misuse. Reservations will have to be made in advance and people will have to travel on the train booked.

No idea how this affects tickets issued from IÉ.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a serious problem with respect to non use of reservations it can result in being left behind particularly on Holyhead Dublin. But thats not the reason for this, its to stop people using Sail/Rail to bypass UK fares i.e. not travel on the ferry. That doesn't apply to IE issued tickets as you have to take the ferry to get to the UK in the first place

Irish Rail are actively looking at online sale of Sail/Rail but it could be some time

[Thomas Ralph]

The main problem I foresee is whether IÉ-issued tickets will be accepted without UK reservations by badly-trained ATW/Virgin staff.

[comcor]

That doesn't apply to IE issued tickets as you have to take the ferry to get to the UK in the first place

I don't think that's strictly true.

For example, IIRC, if you ask for a single to Bangor from Cork, it's about E15 cheaper than a single to Dublin from Cork.

However, the only way you make a saving is on walk-up singles to Dublin.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail has very limited number of offices selling SailRail unlike the UK where any staffed office can sell them so there is a very low rate of abuse on the system.

For comparison a walk up single London Holyhead is £135.50/£80.30 SailRail is £32

Cork Bangor is 20 + 35 = 55 Cheapest walk up cash fare is the 51 euro day return, 37 euro online. So its not a massive weak spot in the system.

[Traincustomer]

Having arrived at Dublin Ferryport for the 08:45 Jonathan Swift fast craft sailing to Holyhead one morning in the Autumn without a ticket, myself and family member had the SailRail tickets we purchased stamped with standby numbers 8 & 9. Luckily all standby passengers were then carried.

I was surprised it was so busy.

Wonder what the book in advance requirement on UK side will entail; at least two hours before commencing the first leg of the journey?

[Mark Gleeson]

UK will require purchase a day in advance as the requirement is a reserved seat on the train portion.

Neither railway administration correctly implements reservations on ship currently despite the coupon you might be issued

[Traincustomer]

Interesting...I always assumed the ship reservation coupon issued with one's ticket(s) in the UK was somehow transmitted forward to the ferry company through the ticketing system.

A day in advance seems reasonable.

[Mark Gleeson]

The ferry company does have some say in the number of coupons issued but it has no way to discover how many coupons have been issued.

There is no linkage between the ferry and rail systems. This is why SailRail collapsed during the ash crisis.

Those holding coupons will be second in priority to board after those foot passengers holding reservations issued directly by the ferry company where there is a capacity restriction.

So for Ireland UK you are best to book directly with the ferry company but since Irish Ferries charge crazy handling fees you are better to talk to Stena

[Traincustomer]

There is, I understand, what they term an "allocation" for SailRail for each sailing. In numerical terms I've no idea what that may be. The ceiling of the allocation is probably only reached on occasions when numbers are high e.g. cancellation of fastcraft meaning the conventional ship has many more passengers/ occasions of events such as matches/ closure of airspace etc... If there is spare capacity once the ceiling is reached I daresay additional SailRail passengers are carried in any case.

Agree that Irish Ferries handling fees are very high; have used the online booking facility reluctantly a few times recently as have had to travel to personal appointments and certainty of travel took precedence. (The online booking with Irish Ferries gives one a "firm" booking).

Stena will only issue from the ports (i.e. Dublin/Rosslare/Dún Laoghaire*) onwards into Britain. I've attempted to buy a ticket in advance for a journey starting at an Irish station but they can't/won't issue; the info on the website seems to be informational rather than actual.

(* now served seasonally)

[Mark Gleeson]

You should be safe with a coupon. The only risk route is the Stena Dublin Holyhead

You should be fine on others as the ship capacity is significantly greater than demand and port facilities do not require bus transfer. So unless half of Dublin decides to go to Dun Laoghaire for a HSS sailing there won't be a problem. That said the HSS will operate extra sailings if demand is proven

Stena want the business and are looking at ways to ensure they can carry everyone. There plan is very clever and will really make SailRail more attractive from Dublin, licensing issues have to be resolved first.

[Traincustomer]

I'll go onboard as a stowaway if the coupon doesn't work!

The bus transfers are a pain alright. (Now, I've nothing against buses and enjoy bus travel but in the context of circa three minute runs within Holyhead Port it results in the transfer between train and ship being very cumbersome). The buses used generally seem to be oldish public buses with some of the seats rearranged to increase standing capacity.

With hindsight and if the clock could be turned back over a decade Holyhead Harbour could have been redesigned differently. In the mid-1990s high speed operations were "it" and leaflets at the time talked of the marine motorway etc... But the Inner Harbour is sealed off in perpetuity by both the road bridge and Celtic Gateway pedestrian bridge.

On a recent occasion due to winds the foot passenger walkway to the Ulysses at Salt Island was rendered unusable and it took an age for foot passengers to be bussed off. (The walkway is essentially supported above the sea). In fact the walkway must rank as one of the longest anywhere between terminal and ship.

Long term and subject to a viable business (and possible freight prospects) it wouldn't be entirely out of the question for the track to be extended from Holyhead Station to a basic station to serve the Salt Island berths. The track extends a fair distance beyond Platform 1 in any case (Cetic Gateway Pedestrian bridge is good point to see this) but is overgrown. Thinking this through there would probably have to be freight to make it worthwhile laying the track. As the area is out of public bounds the station would be exclusively for passengers arriving on the ferry/sailing on it/port workers. This could raise a few issues but they shouldn't be insurmountable.

The HSS Stena Explorer has the attribute of adjacency to the rail stations on both sides. Stena's plan sounds promising; I think a key point is to try and align the HSS sailing to Holyhead with the afternoon Virgin Trains to London; do-able if the sailing was advanced and the turnaround time in Dún Laoghaire cut to the half hour/35 minutes of its heyday.

It's a pity P & O don't take foot passengers from Dublin to Liverpool as their terminal (by the East Link Bridge) is just a stone's throw from the LUAS. However the Liverpool terminal is not so convenient and would likely require a bus transfer.

Finally it would be good if the bus link between the Irish Ferries terminal and Busáras (Heuston on first journey) could be an add-on to one's ticket. I have never seen as much commotion with first timers rummaging for coins/not having the money etc... Furthermore a through SailRail ticket say Chester to Kildare should entitle one to travel on this bus without further payment.

Something similar has recently been introduced in the Isle of Man whereby one can buy a rail and sea ticket from a station in Britain to Douglas (via either Heysham or Liverpool) and then get a "Plusbus" add-on for the IOM. So on arrival at the Sea Terminal in Douglas there's no hassle of rooting for cash and one can simply board a Bus Vannin for the onward journey.
Talking of the IOM does anyone remember the through tickets available from Irish Rail stations to the Island? They seem to have been discontinued in the 1990s presumably due to low uptake.

In my view Dún Laoghaire would be preferable for IOM sailings; the sailings are predominantly tourist/leisure orientated rather than freight and also by using Dún Laoghaire foot passengers would have much greater ease of access to/from the sailings.

[Eddie]

That said the HSS will operate extra sailings if demand is proven

Stena want the business and are looking at ways to ensure they can carry everyone. There plan is very clever and will really make SailRail more attractive from Dublin, licensing issues have to be resolved first.

Can't see Stena ever putting on extra HSS sailings. The only reason they did last summer for a 12 day period was when the Adventurer was on refit.

What clever plan have they got? Utilising the aditional sailings the Nordica would provide for Sail & Rail / foot passengers? Surely they could have done this a long time ago if they'd really wanted to.

[Thomas Ralph]

The UK rail tickets are already supposed to be invalid without a ferry coupon.

The problem with people stopping was even more pronounced on tickets to Northern Ireland that involved sailings from Scotland, where people just got to Glasgow and threw away the rest of the ticket to get around absurd Virgin Trains peak time fares.

[Mark Gleeson]

Can't see Stena ever putting on extra HSS sailings. The only reason they did last summer for a 12 day period was when the Adventurer was on refit.

What clever plan have they got? Utilising the aditional sailings the Nordica would provide for Sail & Rail / foot passengers? Surely they could have done this a long time ago if they'd really wanted to.

I've spent quite a lot of time trading emails and meeting people behind SailRail to get to the bottom of the issues

The Nordica is out as it passengers capacity at 405 is barely sufficient to cope with motorists, there is no room left for foot passengers. Need to replace the ship, not likely until 2013 at earliest

HSS operates to meet seasonal demand, it has been indicated in meetings that if demand is proven extra sailings could be provided, again this goes back to the lack of prior knowledge of SailRail tickets issued and the lack of a solid booking system to support it.

[Colm Moore]

Can anyone help with this thread? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056447675

[Traincustomer]

What follows is probably not the full picture but nonetheless hope it may be of interest and practical use.

Central corridor:
Dublin Port – Holyhead (Irish Ferries):

* In general fares are increasing between €2 and €3.

* New Britain Zone E including London, Scotland and parts of the West Country (e.g. Cornwall). Consequently Dublin Port to London Euston now ranges from €45 (by Ulysses conventional ferry) to €51 (by Jonathan Swift fast ferry). This is a €5 increase.

* One can check whether their destination station zone has changed by consulting the following list: http://www.irishferries.com/images/pdf/SailRail_zones_2012.pdf

* Booking on the day of travel now attracts a €6 surcharge.

* The 12 noon Holyhead-Dublin Jonathan Swift fast ferry sailing is advanced to 11:50 from 6th January inclusive (my thinking on this is to give it more turnaround time at Dublin Port prior to taking the 14:30 sailing ex Dublin).


Southern Corridor (Rosslare-Fishguard): It's unclear what fare increases apply to the Southern Corridor route as Stena Line and ATW material does not appear to have been updated as yet. The National Rail Enquiries website would not display a post 2nd January fare from a welsh station origin to Rosslare.

Judging by the following Arriva Trains Wales' posts in a discussion forum, purchasing through tickets in Britain to destinations in provincial Ireland via Fishguard-Rosslare looks a remote prospect.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056470571
(posts: # 9, #11, #19 and #25).


Northern Corridor:
Belfast – Port Ryan, Cairnryan (Stena Line):

Since the last boat trains ran to Stranraer on 19th November and the last ferry served the port two days later, Rail & Sail has become disjointed on both sides involving a seventy five minute coach transfer between Port Ryan (not rail connected) and Ayr railway station.

The following report from a local paper interestingly mentions improving the rail and sea corridor between Scotland, the North and Dublin, using the Enterprise.
http://www.gallowaygazette.co.uk/news/local-headlines/new_era_for_stranraer_rail_line_1_1991471

Interestingly Stena Line at Belfast Port are able to issue the same tickets that railway stations in Britain issue. (i.e. standard card with orange header, footer, BR logo and rail settlement plan background).

[dowlingm]

Back in 1990-91 when I was a student at Glasgow I could get a through ticket from Glasgow (Queen Street I think)-Stranraer-Larne-Belfast-Connolly-Heuston-Mallow. Was cheaper than flying because this was pre Mick O'Leary. Can't really see it being a "sustainable link between Edinburgh and Dublin" short of another, more sustained ash cloud.

[Eddie]

General fare increases, an extra zone, and surcharges for credit cards, fast ferries and booking on the day of travel, all added since the Ash Cloud 18 months ago. The fare was sufficiently low that you'd put up with the additional time it took compared to flying. The sparkle has most definitely gone.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is no credit card surcharge when you buy via Irish Rail or via Arriva Trains Wales. Irish Ferries charge everyone a crazy credit card fee which is all but impossible to avoid, Stena Line do as well but at least they don't charge a visa debit card.

Its actually cheaper to buy a SailRail ticket from Holyhead station to Dublin than to go foot passenger ticket as a result.

Fast ferry surcharge has been around for some time, Irish Rail wasn't charging it on the Swift for a while due to an admin oversight.

[Traincustomer]

The Stena Line HSS Stena Explorer resumes sailings tomorrow, Friday 30th March, 2012.

The sailing schedule is the same as last year - one round trip. This is at 10.00 ex Holyhead and 13.15 ex Dún Laoghaire. Scheduled crossing time of two hours.

The original plan was not to resume until 1st April but the starting date has subsequently been pushed forward.

[Eddie]

Interestingly, I have recently completed a survey on behalf on Stena that suggests, if popular enough, they might be looking at tweaking their timetables from Rosslare to Fishguard to either:

Rosslare to Fishguard: 8.30am / 7pm; Fishguard to Rosslare: 1.45pm / midnight (with option to stay in cabin for 6 hrs)

or

Rosslare to Fishguard: 2.30am (option to stay in cabin for 6 hrs) / 4pm; Fishguard to Rosslare: 10.45am / 9pm.

I suspect they are looking at all routes; would be interesting to hear if anyone else gets the survey and has an insight into the Dublin / Dun Laoghaire options.

[Mark Gleeson]

I can confirm similar proposals for Dublin Holyhead are under investigation by Stena Line management

[Eddie]

It's a shame they didn't ask my opinion about constructing an ideal timetable from Dun Laoghaire to Holyhead which is potentially of more use to me as I would have said:

Dun Laoghaire to Holyhead: sometime between 11.10am and 12.30pm
Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire: sometime between 2pm and 5pm.

Of course, they will never do this as this would mean basing the ferry in Dun Laoghaire rather than Holyhead.

With regard to the Dublin port to Holyhead service, I like the idea of pulling the morning departure times forward a little to say 7.30am from Dublin (which I think they do occasionally when there are particular football matches taking place), and the option of a 6 hour overnight sailing from Holyhead in a cabin could be very appealing. However, a 7pm rather than a 9pm departure from Dublin to Holyhead would extend even further the already long time from arrival into Holyhead and the next train departure though.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a chance Stena wont operate out of Dun Laoghaire in 2013

Almost certainly this last HSS season. The HSC Stena Explorer is the oldest ship on the Holyhead route!

[Traincustomer]

Very interesting that this practice of staying onboard which was common decades ago on Irish Sea services could make a comeback.

While acknowledging such changes will benefit all market segments (not just rail passengers) a fairly long lead in to any significant change is desirable on both practical and revenue optimisation grounds so that train services can be adjusted to best match the new arrangements.

The first option for Rosslare to Fishguard seems the best i.e. ex Rosslare 8.30am / 7pm; ex Fishguard 1.45pm and midnight (with the option to stay in cabin for 6 hrs).

Arrive refreshed!

Even with a full six hours in a cabin the second option and its proposed 02.30 sailing ex Rosslare is not necessarily an appealing sailing time for even the seasoned trucker, let alone the motorist or foot passenger. Under this proposed timetable it would be impossible for embarkation to commence before 01.15 at very best.

What I like about Rosslare at present is that the overnight rail sea and rail journey works in that it is continuous with no significant hanging around but that only suits if heading for South Wales.

Regarding Dublin if a 7pm sailing to Holyhead wasn’t met the far side by a train it would probably totally displace the rail-based foot passengers to Bus Éireann/Eurolines. Incidentally the overnight route 871 (London) coach enjoys very strong patronage and is often full/near full. Its route 880 (Leeds) counterpart often is around half full give or take but this can fluctuate. From time to time when heading to visit people in NW England I Sailrail if I can go daytime but at night always take the coach. There is no contest – at 4.25am I can either be starting to grab a few hours rest after already arriving whereas by rail the train would just be pulling out of Holyhead. Admittedly Eurolines only serves certain key cities and towns so rail is the only mode for many locations.

Advancing the morning conventional sailings slightly would be ok – but please leave the Irish Ferries Jonathan Swift at 08.45 – not being based in Dublin it’s impossible to reach Dublin by public transport in time for either the Stena Line or Irish Ferries conventional sailings and anytime I take the Swift it’s always a ‘mad dash’ invariably involving a taxi from the city centre.

It will be sad to see the Stena Explorer cease – hard to believe this month marks sixteen years since her entry into service on the route. Hypothetically would an alternative like the Stena Nordica serving Dún Laoghaire on one of her daily round trips be possible? (using the berth on the south side of St. Michael’s Pier/Ferry Terminal which the Stena Express/Lynx III served).

Final items of interest are in the recently released station usage figures for 2010-2011.

Holyhead = 241, 210 (up from 185,506 in 2009-2010)

Fishguard Harbour = 30,832 (up from 23,746 in 2009-2010)

(Reason – extra foot passengers in wake of Icelandic volcano).

The figures for Fishguard Harbour are for the period before the additional local trains were introduced last September when the only trains were the boat trains which understandably saw residual local usage due to the times they ran so 90 – 95% if not virtually all of the Fishguard figure pertains to foot passengers to/from Rosslare.

In contrast Holyhead’s train service is used by the local population so while the bulk of the additional usage is likely foot passengers to/from ferries there may also have been an increase in usage of the rail service by local people.

[Mark Gleeson]

Stena Nordica is too small to carry foot passengers, only takes 405 barely enough for drivers and its too big to fit in Dun Laoghaire.

Nordica is likely to be replaced also

[zag]

I took Sail & Rail back from London during the week in an attempt to avoid some of the chaos involved in taking a flight these days. I'm unlikely to repeat the experiment in a hurry. Having the option of an extended cabin stay would help though.

The train journey was fine, direct with Virgin from Euston. However, there was a major Ryanair-like scrum in Euston which was a pity. There was a train to Liverpool and my train to Holyhead within 10 minutes of each other. Both were relatively late to board and both were packed. Despite having ~20 platforms to board, they managed to get both trains to board from adjacent platforms. The scrum was unbelievable. By way of contrast, other trains which had departed earlier just had a normal looking queue to board.

The trip itself was uneventful, although I was a little annoyed at going backwards all the way to Holyhead. I could have sworn I had booked a forward facing seat.

Once we got to Holyhead though, the experience went rapidly downhill. The walk from the train to the terminal was badly signposted, poorly lit, indirect, and generally not very friendly to someone who didn't know the route. Then when you get to the door at the end of the platform, looking in to the terminal it's locked and there's a sign saying something like "Please use the main door". Of course, there is no arrow indicating which way to go for the main door - is it back the way we came, is it to the left, is it to the right ? We just followed people and hoped we would get there. It really is pretty poor from a user experience point of view.

The boats were both late due to the storms on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning, but despite Irish Ferries having 3 staff on who were doing nothing apparent, it was down to each passenger to keep walking up to them to ask "what's the story, how long will it be, has it even departed Dublin yet, etc . . ." It was very poor customer service. How hard is it to write up a summary on a flip chart with an update. The overhead displays just said "delayed".

The terminal was *freezing*. I know it was unusually cold on Tuesday night, but there was no heating on at all other than in the loos and I don't think too many people were going to hang out in the loos for a few hours. The only seating available was metal and as you can imagine (on a cold night) it was pretty uncomfortable.

Stena boarded without any sort of announcement. I wouldn't like to have been waiting for it and missed it.

Irish Ferries boarded a while later. Again, no announcement, nothing. I know people (those who were awake) would have noticed the rest of the people shuffling along into a queue, but an announcement wouldn't have gone amiss.

We went through into the waiting area for the bus and waited, and waited, and waited. Some genius at the top of the queue kept setting off the sliding doors to outside which resulted in major gales (no, I'm not exaggerating) blowing through the hall and freezing everyone. All this time, no communication from Irish Ferries or port staff. People had no idea if they were going to be here for 5 minutes, an hour, an indefinite period while the ferry tried to dock, etc . . .

Eventually someone arrived and we were let on to the bus. At last there was a friendly staff member (port staff I think) who explained what the story was, how long the delay was likely to be, etc . . . The bus ended up driving on to the ferry and we walked up the stairs as the pedestrian link was out of action due to the weather. I'm actually glad of that as that walk would have been huge.

On the ferry - generally fine, captain explained expected arrival time, food was available and hot and not surprisingly there was plenty of space for all the passengers.

Arrival in Dublin showed up poor service again. Foot passengers gathered around the reception area. There was no communication from staff, no marshalling, no information. It took forever for the link to be fitted and all this time a very cold breeze was blowing through the reception area, presumably because the car doors were open. I'm a fit, relatively healthy, relatively young male and I can take most conditions, but this was almost too much for me - being frozen inside the ship. I wouldn't like to think how the grannies and kids who were travelling managed - they must have been blue by the end. Again, all this time, no communication from the staff. There were reception staff nearby and all they did when asked by the various customers was say "yes, it will be here". After 10 minutes of waiting in the freezing cold people were getting pretty angry. Eventually the gates opened and we trundled off.

All in all, a very unimpressive experience. I didn't care about the delay - it meant I got home at a more reasonable time. What I objected to was the freezing cold station, the uninviting environment on arrival into Holyhead, the lack of active communication from the staff everywhere, and basically the feeling that the foot passengers were regarded as less than human - they just weren't regarded at all.

z

[Traincustomer]

Thanks for posting that interesting account.

I'm puzzled about the door being locked at Holyhead - it sounds very bad form - I assume it was the door at the top of Platform 2. Did it involve walking out of the station onto the approach road, over the bridge and back in again?

Plan of Holyhead station here which may be of help:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/HHD/stationOverview.xhtml

Virgin Trains often use platform 1 away over the far side of the station beside the old ferry terminal (it's possible to walk through the old terminal - totally empty - to get from platform 1 to platform 2).

Last time I was through Holyhead at night there was a door in the waiting area constantly banging open and closed - with people going out to smoke. A right nuisance to say the least.

I can't recall ever hearing a public address announcement at Holyhead - seems to be all screens.

Adequate heating, occasional announcements (update when most train passengers have arrived/ notification of check-in commencing etc...), signage - very basic issues - I think these are exactly the kind of issues that management need to walk through themselves if they want to see the Sailrail product via Holyhead do well.

Arriva Trains Wales are in charge of the railway station; Stena Line in charge of the ferry terminal building.

[Mark Gleeson]

Facilities at Holyhead are basic unless you are on the HSS which has a nice lounge upstairs and direct walk on/off ship without need for buses and other hassle

If you arrive by Arriva Trains Wales its normally a quick 20m walk to check in. The direct Virgin service does dump you on the town side platform which requires a bit of a walk back to the link to the other platforms. But regardless of platform you never have to go outside to get to the terminal.

Only complaint is the lack of seating in the terminal area, plus the pinch point as you pass the ferry ticket desks on the right towards check in. The coffee shop/news agent is pretty decent and has departure information screens on the wall

Its a whole lot better than the barren and cold Fishguard.

[Jamie2k9]

Don't blame the staff for lack of info on the delayed sailing. From having worked for one of the above operators and current in aviation 99% of the time passengers know what staff know although most of the time people don't believe it. All the staff in Hollyhead would know is its being delayed due to weather and an ETA of next update as that is all that staff in Dublin would of put into the system. However the screens in Hollyhead should of said delayed - Next Update @ .....

[Traincustomer]

There's also a café in the terminal at Fishguard, albeit not open at night.

[Eddie]

Interestingly, I have recently completed a survey on behalf on Stena.

If anyone else gets this survey, you might want to be careful how you answer which ferry journeys you have undertaken in the last year. I said I'd done one return of each of the Rosslare to Fishguard and Dublin to Holyhead routes.

The survey engine then decided I should answer questions about the possible future timetabling of the Rosslare to Fishguard route, presumably because this route has a lower number of passengers to ask.

As a result, I ended up commenting on a route which I am less likely to use and I also now have a discount coupon only valid on the Rosslare to Fishguard route, which is going to be of no use to me whatsover within the timeframe of its validity, whereas a Dun Laoghaire / Dublin to Holyhead voucher might have been.

[Traincustomer]

I presume the discount coupon is personalised and non-transferable?

[Eddie]

Looks that way to me.

[zag]

But regardless of platform you never have to go outside to get to the terminal.

You obviously weren't there on Tuesday night Mark. Perhaps you should lay off the absolute comments when talking about a journey you didn't take.

We had to go outside twice before getting in to the terminal. Using the map linked by Traincustomer, here's an outline of the route we had to take. We arrived in to Platform 1. The access concourse was closed (or else not visibly or obviously open). Given the wind situation, the fact that the other doors into the terminal were locked and none of the people who passed through the station seemed to use it, I can well believe that it was locked. This meant we had to go outside and across the Access Road. This was poorly lit. Then we had to walk down the length of Platform 2 to the ramp and the doors to the ferry terminal. These were definitely locked - I checked them both. These are the doors that had the note on them indicating we should use the main doors. At this stage there were three options for finding the 'main' doors - left over the bridge, back along platform 2, or right through a set of doors and out to the car park. The correct route was to the right and *outside*. As you can see, we did in fact have to go outside.

Traincustomer - yep, it was the sliding doors at the end of platform 2 that were locked.

Jamie2k9 - while it may have been the case that the staff knew nothing more than we did, it's all about perception in the end. The perception of the people waiting in the terminal was that the staff didn't give a damn about the customers, their comfort, or keeping them up to date. In the time we had to wait there I ended up talking to a good few of them and everyone was unhappy with the information flow. Remember the bit about the customer being the person who pays the wages, etc . . . Customers who don't come back don't pay wages.

z

[Traincustomer]

I had suspected it had been necessary to go outside from your previous account (i.e. approach road etc...).

Wonder is this a regular happening or just a once off for some reason. Have used Holyhead homebound at night twice in the last 6 months or so and the door was open (but the trains I used pulled into Platforms 2 and 3 respectively - so I couldn't comment on the egress from P1 arrangement).

Way down platform 1 (towards the road bridge) there was (maybe still is) an arch (under the approach road embankment) leading to Platform 2 (at ground level).

To illustrate - on a country bus route a bus broke down a few years ago and the driver kept us posted about the replacement bus coming. His announcements weren't in flowery language or formal (and didn't need to be in a bus context) and while nobody was over the moon about being delayed the best part of an hour everyone could relax now that they were "in the picture". Everyone appreciated his handling of a situation outside of his control. In contrast in the last year or two a bus on the same route stopped at one of the main stops for twenty minutes or so for no apparent reason (it wasn't early and everyone had got off/on) - in the end it was seen that a new driver was taking over the bus. But there was no communication of the fact and this uncertainty understandably annoyed passengers.

[Traincustomer]

The Dublin Bus website mentions that route 53A is being discontinued as of its last journey this Saturday and that route 53 will have an amended routeing and timetable from this Sunday. Route 53 will no longer serve the Point (where most journeys currently start/terminate) but will serve Dublin Ferryport. All journeys will go via East Wall which in reasonable traffic conditions suggests a 20 to 25 minute journey from Talbot Street terminus to the Ferryport.

Cash fare €1.40 adult single or €1.25 with LEAP.

Timetable:http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/5321/

Route 53 also stops outside Busáras (the Dublin Bus stop with the shelter on the "main road") and at Gandon House on Amiens Street - diagonally opposite Connolly.

A welcome and progressive development for passengers, workers etc...There is no bus to get to the port for either the 08.05 Irish Ferries sailing to Holyhead (the only Irish Ferries morning sailing if the weather is inclement and the Jonathan Swift is cancelled) or to/from Isle of Man sailings.

There is, of course, also the complimentary bus run by Mortons available to/from certain Stena Line (Holyhead) sailings at the separate Stena Line Terminal.

[Colm Moore]

A welcome and progressive development for passengers, workers etc...There is no bus to get to the port for either the 08.05 Irish Ferries sailing to Holyhead (the only Irish Ferries morning sailing if the weather is inclement and the Jonathan Swift is cancelled) or to/from Isle of Man sailings.

There is, of course, also the complimentary bus run by Mortons available to/from certain Stena Line (Holyhead) sailings at the separate Stena Line Terminal.
There is also the Irish Ferries bus provided by Dublin Bus under the name "53b"

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/Ferry-Connections/

[Traincustomer]

On the subject of this Irish Ferries private hire ("route 53B") service drivers will also accept payment in sterling but this fact isn't mentioned anywhere and no exchange rate is applied i.e. Stg. £2.50. (€ fare 2.50).

[Eddie]

Route 53 will no longer serve the Point (where most journeys currently start/terminate) but will serve Dublin Ferryport.

There is, of course, also the complimentary bus run by Mortons available to/from certain Stena Line (Holyhead) sailings at the separate Stena Line Terminal.

That sounds like a step in the right direction. However, from recollection, the terminal buildings of IF and Stena are quite separate. How close is the bus terminus to these buildings?

Note that the Stena line coach is no longer complimentary (since 1 April).

[Colm Moore]

Bus Stop No. 2270 is right outside the Irish ferries terminal. http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Dublin+Port&hl=en&ll=53.345745,-6.195549&spn=0.000812,0.002411&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.644571,19.753418&t=k&hnear=Dublin+Port,+County+Dublin&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.345743,-6.19536&panoid=wOtPmIAJSTK3DMHVR2VEeA&cbp=12,238.08,,0,-7.73

[Traincustomer]

Interesting that the Morton's bus to/from Terminal 2 (Stena Line) is no longer free. The fare is €2.50 adult single from the terminal to Connolly and Westmoreland Street with an option of a €4 fare to be dropped off at Heuston. There is however no pick-up at Heuston (or Connolly for that matter).

Further details here: http://www.stenaline.ie/ferry/rail-and-sail/holyhead/

So, a passenger wishing to use the route 53 service bus to/from Stena Line (Terminal 2 - adjacent to the top of Terminal Road South) could either use the stop at Terminal 1 (Irish Ferries & Isle of Man Steam Packet terminal) or use the stop at Alexandra Road/Breakwater Road South (stop 2269). It's around an eight minute walk from either stop to the Stena Terminal and in terms of footpath continuity/the need to cross roads the walk between the stop at Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 is preferable.

Incidentally there is a Dublin Bus pole still there opposite the Stena Line terminal (stop 2254) which was where the 53/53A used to stop before the road layout was altered a few years ago but it would appear essentially impossible for the revised route 53 to serve it due to the road and traffic island layout.

[tivoli]

Interesting that the Morton's bus to/from Terminal 2 (Stena Line) is no longer free. The fare is €2.50 adult single from the terminal to Connolly and Westmoreland Street with an option of a €4 fare to be dropped off at Heuston. There is however no pick-up at Heuston (or Connolly for that matter).

Further details here: http://www.stenaline.ie/ferry/rail-and-sail/holyhead/



Thanks for that info, which I didn't know.
Cost of bus for me is offset by the direct service to Heuston, saves changing on to Luas at Connolly.

[Traincustomer]

Adult single Busáras - Ferryport (or vice versa) wil rise to €3 (currently €2.50)
Child single Busáras - Ferryport (or vice versa) wil rise to €1.50 (currently €1.25)
Adult single Heuston - Ferryport (or vice versa) wil rise to €4 (currently €2.50)
Child single Heuston - Ferryport (or vice versa) wil rise to €2 (currently €1.25)

Source: http://www.irishferries.com/images/pdf/SailRail-bus-times-2012.pdf

Irish Ferries confirmed that this increase will apply as of Monday 7th May next (inclusive).

LEAP card can also be used to pay the fares (this appears to have been the case for a while).

[Mark Gleeson]

This is actually a private service under contract to Irish Ferries. It is the only scheduled service where annual tickets are not valid

There were issues with Leap on this service at the start as, the cash takings are remitted to Irish Ferries

[Traincustomer]

A footnote in the online timetable mentions the fact it is a private hire but this fact doesn't seem to have always been so mentioned.

(http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/Ferry-Connections/

[Eddie]

Interestingly, I have recently completed a survey on behalf on Stena that suggests, if popular enough, they might be looking at tweaking their timetables from Rosslare to Fishguard to either:

Rosslare to Fishguard: 8.30am / 7pm; Fishguard to Rosslare: 1.45pm / midnight (with option to stay in cabin for 6 hrs)

or

Rosslare to Fishguard: 2.30am (option to stay in cabin for 6 hrs) / 4pm; Fishguard to Rosslare: 10.45am / 9pm.

I suspect they are looking at all routes; would be interesting to hear if anyone else gets the survey and has an insight into the Dublin / Dun Laoghaire options.

Has anyone heard whether there might be any changes afoot with regard to the ferry timings or did the research just confirm that the current timings are the best?

[Burkey]

Glad my bits were of some interest.

I'm afraid I don't know the destination of the new circa 0130 train ex Holyhead but understand it to be an Arriva Trains Wales train thereby eliminating a direct service to Euston. I suspect it may be too early to head down The Marches line to Cardiff so Birmingham may be a reasonable guess at to its destination. Another possible destination is Manchester Airport as it could also pick-up from key North Wales stops for there. The first Crewe to Euston train is currently the 0536 (arr. 0728) Virgin Trains so even a 0135 departure from Holyhead will mean around an hour's wait at Crewe. Not perfect but still it's much better than the present lack of a connection.

Traincustomer, Do you know anymore about the 01 30 train ex Holyhead?
Is it going to happen, and what is it's destination?

[Traincustomer]

Afraid not. On July 18th Arriva Trains Wales released all five of the September 15th to December 9th timetable booklets (online PDF versions). I looked at book 4 (which covers North Wales and also lists ferry times to Dublin and Dún Laoghaire) and the first weekday train ex Holyhead is still at 04.25hrs.

The timetable booklets have since been recalled presumably to allow amendments and or corrections be made.

More significant changes seem to be on the cards for the December timetable change.

I think the reason a train around 01.30 ex Holyhead hasn't been reintroduced thus far is because of the cost of providing security (possible rowdiness of a minority of passengers under the influence of alcohol). A train at this time would presumably also serve Bangor city and this could coincide with the finishing time of clubs at weekends. The vast majority of ferry passengers and clubbers conduct themselves very well - it seems to be on account of the minority that don't and the attendant security cost that such a train has not and potentially may not be introduced.

The overnight Eurolines/Bus Éireann coach services through Holyhead have a zero tolerance approach to any out of order behaviour (and rightly so) but managing the train environment is somewhat more difficult.

If any early hours train ex Holyhead is introduced at a future date it would need to serve either or both Chester and Crewe to provide meaningful connectivity into the wider British network. A 01.30 ex Holyhead would reach Chester around 03.05/ Crewe around 03.30. The first Crewe-London train is not until 05.36. For the Ireland to London traveller it just means replacing a four hour wait at Holyhead with a two hour wait at Crewe – still far from ideal.

A through Holyhead to London train probably couldn’t be justified.

Best overnight option ex Ireland is Eurolines/Bus Éireann via Dublin-Holyhead or – if suitable – SailRail via Rosslare-Fishguard which does have an overnight option without prolonged waits.

[Eddie]

Not too long ago there used to be a 1.50am to Birmingham from Holyhead, arriving 3 hours later. This used to connect with a train to London not too long after 5am, which I caught once, arriving into London about 7.15am. That's only an hour earlier than the direct train leaving Holyhead now at around 4.20am, two and a half hours after the old 1.50am train.

Rosslare option has got more tempting recently with the introduction of €9.99 fares on all trains from Dublin.

What happens to the incoming trains into Holyhead that arrive to connect with overnight ferries? Do they go back to Chester empty or just stay in Holyhead overnight?

[Traincustomer]

Several trains are stabled at Holyhead overnight, both Arriva Trains Wales and Virgin Trains. There's a depot a short way outside the station (Valley/Bangor side) where I believe cleaning and fuelling (and possibly some servicing) takes place.

If ever the need arose the fourth platform (the platform 2 facing side of platform 3 so to speak) could be brought back into use.

[plant43]

It won't be Virgin Trains for too much longer. First Group to take over from December this year. From what I have read they are going to remove the catering car in order to put in more seats, leaving only a trolley service for a long train journey.

[Eddie]

Have just seen Richard Branson on Newsnight commenting on First Group's bid. He seems to think that they've have substantially overpaid for the West Coast (WC) line. He went on that we may see the collapse or early withdrawal of their franchise in due course, following East Coast Trains and National Express who also have bid more than Virgin in the past for rail franchises at substantial cost to the UK taxpayer. The market also seems to agree, with First Group's share price falling today and Stagecoach's (Virgin's partner on the WC) rising. Unfortunately, he's probably right.

In the meantime, will be interesting to see what they do with the timetable.

[Sealink]

They have very little influence on the timetable, and First participate in Rail'n'Sail via the Great Western and ScotRail franchises.

[Burkey]

Afraid not. On July 18th Arriva Trains Wales released all five of the September 15th to December 9th timetable booklets (online PDF versions). I looked at book 4 (which covers North Wales and also lists ferry times to Dublin and Dún Laoghaire) and the first weekday train ex Holyhead is still at 04.25hrs.

The timetable booklets have since been recalled presumably to allow amendments and or corrections be made.

More significant changes seem to be on the cards for the December timetable change.

I think the reason a train around 01.30 ex Holyhead hasn't been reintroduced thus far is because of the cost of providing security (possible rowdiness of a minority of passengers under the influence of alcohol). A train at this time would presumably also serve Bangor city and this could coincide with the finishing time of clubs at weekends. The vast majority of ferry passengers and clubbers conduct themselves very well - it seems to be on account of the minority that don't and the attendant security cost that such a train has not and potentially may not be introduced.

The overnight Eurolines/Bus Éireann coach services through Holyhead have a zero tolerance approach to any out of order behaviour (and rightly so) but managing the train environment is somewhat more difficult.

If any early hours train ex Holyhead is introduced at a future date it would need to serve either or both Chester and Crewe to provide meaningful connectivity into the wider British network. A 01.30 ex Holyhead would reach Chester around 03.05/ Crewe around 03.30. The first Crewe-London train is not until 05.36. For the Ireland to London traveller it just means replacing a four hour wait at Holyhead with a two hour wait at Crewe – still far from ideal.

A through Holyhead to London train probably couldn’t be justified.

Best overnight option ex Ireland is Eurolines/Bus Éireann via Dublin-Holyhead or – if suitable – SailRail via Rosslare-Fishguard which does have an overnight option without prolonged waits.

I would like to see the 01 50 ex Holyhead re-introduced as it was very handy for linking into the WCML! I have read elsewhere that Scotrail are going to ban any passengers that are under the influence of alcohol during certain periods. It remains to be seen how they implement this, but if Scotrail can do it, then there should be no reason why it can't be enforced on the North Wales line?

[Thomas Ralph]

Not quite. They are banning open containers and drinking on board between 2100 and 1000, or possibly 2200 and 0900 (can't remember which).

[Mark Gleeson]

Its 22:00 onwards, however it appears to apply to trains within Scotland only, the night sleeper trains are exempt for instance

[Traincustomer]

Interestingly the Dutchflyer Rail & Sail service (via Stena Line’s Harwich to Hook of Holland route) saw a 7% increase in usage for the first half of this year with the period from April to June seeing 11% growth.

The strong points of this route are, inter alia, the integrated rail-sea terminals at both Harwich International and Hook of Holland. Also the North Sea crossing time is much longer than any Irish Sea passage and as such closely matches the time needed for a normal sleep (though a daytime journey option is also available).

When I travelled I bought my NS (Netherlands railway) ticket from my origin station in the Netherlands and its cost was refunded to me by Stena Line at check-in at the Hook of Holland. Got a good night’s sleep and reached Liverpool Street with sufficient time to get a bus (route 205) to Euston in time for the 09.10 (Virgin) train to Holyhead.

[Eddie]

Also the North Sea crossing time is much longer than any Irish Sea passage and as such closely matches the time needed for a normal sleep (though a daytime journey option is also available).

Nothing seems to have come of the possible changes to Stena's Fishguard and Holyhead overnight sailings cited earlier in the year to make them closer to a normal sleep pattern.

[James Howard]

I often wondered how they came up with the ferry timetables. It is a mark of supreme idiocy that both Stena Line and Irish Ferries have departures around 8AM that require you to battle Dublin rush-hour traffic and there is also a Stena ferry that dumps you in Dublin in the middle of the evening rush-hour.

These times also severely restrict the options for rail passengers connecting with the ferries as there are few options to get to Dublin in time for 8AM.

[Colm Moore]

I often wondered how they came up with the ferry timetables. It is a mark of supreme idiocy that both Stena Line and Irish Ferries have departures around 8AM that require you to battle Dublin rush-hour traffic and there is also a Stena ferry that dumps you in Dublin in the middle of the evening rush-hour.

These times also severely restrict the options for rail passengers connecting with the ferries as there are few options to get to Dublin in time for 8AM.I suspect a large part of it is the scheduling of port staff. Change can't be introduced 'just like that'.

[Mark Gleeson]

It is a game of follow the leader

If Stena changed its timetable Irish Ferries would follow

The schedule currently seems to reflect the time to drive from London leaving after 6pm to reach Dublin for 7am, with the opposite in reverse

[James Howard]

I've always put it down to it being set up to suit the truck drivers.

[dowlingm]

I've always put it down to it being set up to suit the truck drivers.To be fair, isn't that their most reliable year round custom?

[Traincustomer]

Nothing seems to have come of the possible changes to Stena's Fishguard and Holyhead overnight sailings cited earlier in the year to make them closer to a normal sleep pattern.

Haven't come across anything. Would hope that if something is being planned that there would be a reasonable lead-in to it to enable co-ordination with the rail service. Integration of trains at Fishguard Harbour with the Rosslare ferry is prescribed in the rail franchise. Not sure if it's prescribed for Holyhead but in view of the much more frequent train service (24 trains depart Holyhead daily Mondays to Fridays) trains and ships will by default coincide reasonably well.

The two areas that could be improved on in terms of co-ordination/timetabling at Holyhead are:

(i) the night-time situation ex Ireland (as previously discussed).

(ii) an improved level of connectivity with the through trains to Euston e.g. great that the 09.10 ex Euston connects with the 13.50 & 14.10 sailings to Dublin but no through train to London out of the 11.30 and 11.45 ferry arrivals at Holyhead except at weekends. (I didn't mention the 10.45 Jonathan Swift fast ferry arrival as in heavy weather it would be cancelled and passengers transferred to the Ulysses arriving at 11.30). One daytime through London - Holyhead train connecting with the conventional sailings to/from Dublin seems a very reasonable minimum provision.

On the issue of ferry sailing times my personal opinion is that they are largely historic. For example today's sailing times from Dublin Port (08.05, 08.20, 08.45, 20.55 & 21.15) closely mirror the bygone days of the St. Columba sailing from Dún Laoghaire at 08.45 and 20.45.

Similarly for the last few decades or longer a ship has sailed from Rosslare between around 21.00 and 22.00hrs and plied the route to Fishguard.

On a quick aside hopefully the route from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead will remain. Personally think a smaller fast ferry doing two round trips in the summer and one round trip off season might be better. Pity that fuel costs have affected things on this route to such an extent.

In case anyone is interested there's a consultation underway in Wales where users' views of integrated transport are being sought. Views must be submitted on this Friday at the latest. Details here:
http://wales.gov.uk/topics/transport/public/ptuc/questionnaire/;jsessionid=SmTwQ9nFXyBJfnG2pJMPSf76W9rbBcQB9xJP9h Yjv1RDQprlpKzT!1219044931?lang=en

[Thomas J Stamp]

is it something to do with tides?

[Mark Gleeson]

Not since they moved the ferries out to the outer harbour in Holyhead 15+ years ago

[Sealink]

Interestingly the Dutchflyer Rail & Sail service (via Stena Line’s Harwich to Hook of Holland route) saw a 7% increase in usage for the first half of this year with the period from April to June seeing 11% growth.


Unlike other rail and sail offers, this one is actively promoted. I wonder if it's because it is very well integrated as this video shows? And it's a good revenue stream for Greater Anglia Trains, compared to diluting revenue on the other routes? (Rail and Sail fares to Ireland are usually lower than most fares to the departing port). This isn't the case with the Harwich route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxEgAcnOywY


I think what has happened with Rail and Sail to Ireland is that the temporary loss of foot passengers thanks to rise of low cost airlines made the ferry companies amend their schedules to were the business was: cars and freight. In the process, they destroyed the connectivity that was there. Yet, there is a definitely an untapped market for people growing weary of airline nickle and diming.

Just some random, unchecked thoughts!

[Traincustomer]

is it something to do with tides?

If I remember rightly the B & I Line service from Liverpool to Dublin used to be particularly prone to tidal restrictions but think they were on the Liverpool side.

[Traincustomer]

Unlike other rail and sail offers, this one is actively promoted. I wonder if it's because it is very well integrated as this video shows? And it's a good revenue stream for Greater Anglia Trains, compared to diluting revenue on the other routes? (Rail and Sail fares to Ireland are usually lower than most fares to the departing port). This isn't the case with the Harwich route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxEgAcnOywY


I think what has happened with Rail and Sail to Ireland is that the temporary loss of foot passengers thanks to rise of low cost airlines made the ferry companies amend their schedules to were the business was: cars and freight. In the process, they destroyed the connectivity that was there. Yet, there is a definitely an untapped market for people growing weary of airline nickle and diming.

Just some random, unchecked thoughts!

I think the integrated rail/sea terminals on the London-Netherlands route make a big difference along with the fact the crossing time neatly fits a normal sleep. Shipboard facilities are just as good on the Irish Sea but the shorter crossing time results in overnight journeys being fragmented.

[Traincustomer]

The Stena Explorer (HSS) will operate from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead this Christmas and New Year.

Having spent several minutes going through the booking engine on the Stena Line website the sailing schedule is 10.30 ex Holyhead and 13.30 ex Dún Laoghaire with a passage time of 1 hour 59 minutes.

Dates seem to be Thurs 20th to Sun 23rd inclusive.
Thurs 27th to Sun 30th inclusive and Weds 2nd Jan 2013 to Sat 5th Jan 2013 inclusive.

[Traincustomer]

On December 22nd, 23rd, 27th and January 2nd and 3rd the Isle of Inishmore (conventional vessel) will operate:

* a 13.00hrs Dublin to Holyhead sailing arriving Holyhead 16.40 - the booking engine currently shows that SailRail bookings using this sailing are possible on the 22nd and 23rd December (but for other dates there is insufficient space).

* a 18.30 Holyhead to Dublin sailing arriving Dublin 22.00 (booking engine currently shows SailRail bookings possible for 2nd & 3rd January)

[Sealink]

Stena HSS returning to Dun Loaghaire next summer!

Was it not their intention to remove these vessels from traffic?
Good to see them back, even after 15 odd years they still look great.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6070/6148464988_d0580a9379.jpg

[Mark Gleeson]

They have added a further 15 minutes on the journey time, they might be able to cross now with only 2 of the 4 turbines running

2:15 is the scheduled time, 99 minutes was the original time and 90 minute was possible on a good day back then

Fuel costs, plus charges in Dun Laoghaire port are the problems

[Colm Moore]

Arriva Trains and Virgin Trains information and SailRail availability here: http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=69957&postcount=3

[Traincustomer]

A new timetable has been introduced on Dublin Bus route 53B (that operates as a private hire to Irish Ferries for ferry foot passengers) which sees additional journeys each way between the Ferryport and Heuston. Link: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/Ferry-Connections1/

Previously there was only one early-morning journey in each direction between the Ferryport and Heuston.

This new timetable only seems to have come into effect in the last week or so.

It is a welcome development which should make SailRail a more appealing and feasible option when travelling to/from provincial destinations. Stepping off a train at Heuston and onto a dedicated bus to the ferryport is streets ahead of a fragmented trip across the city entailing possibly being a standee on a LUAS and waiting at Busáras for the bus to the ferryport.

PS: nice shot there Sealink of the HSS!

[Traincustomer]

Of possible assistance to anyone travelling to London (or other destinations) for the New Year is that Arriva Trains Wales will operate an earlier train from Holyhead on Saturday 29th December. This train will be suitable for ferry foot passengers arriving off the 20.55 Irish Ferries and 21.15 Stena Line sailings from Dublin.

The train will depart Holyhead at 03.35 and arrive at Crewe at 05.33 serving Bangor, Llandudno Junction and Chester en route.

At Crewe it'll provide a connection into the 06.18 Crewe to London Virgin Trains service which arrives into Euston at 08.34. En route the train will serve Nuneaton, Milton Keynes Central and Watford Junction.

HSS Dún Laoghaire - Holyhead Sailing schedule 2013:

The HSS Stena Explorer will run between 22nd March and 10th September 2013 (both dates inclusive) and again at Christmas 2013 (presumably New Year 2014 too). The passage time has recently changed from 2 hours to 2 hours 15 minutes, quite understandable given fuel costs. Sailing from Holyhead at 10.30 and at 13.30 from Dún Laoghaire.

[Traincustomer]

Irish Ferries have the new fares listed on their website. The only change apparent is a €1 fare increase on the single fare (€2 on a return).

From Dublin Ferryport on the conventional vessel Ulysses the (advance) fares are:

Britain Zone A €39 single (was €38 in 2012)
Britain Zone B €40 single (was €39 in 2012)
Britain Zone C €41 single (was €40 in 2012)
Britain Zone D €43 single (was €42 in 2012)
Britain Zone E €46 single (was €45 in 2012)

The supplement for travel on the fastcraft Jonathan Swift remains at €6 each way and the additional charge of €6 for booking on day of travel remains unchanged. Irish Rail add-on fares (for travel to Dublin from provincial stations) remain unchanged too.

Irish Rail's small section on SailRail still shows Dublin to London as €45 so perhaps Irish Rail are not implementing the 2013 fares yet?

If there was an award for SailRail information and innovation Irish Ferries would win it this side of the Irish Sea. Whilst it's not a perfect product they are taking a real interest and making a real effort to project and improve it.

[ThomasJ]

HSS is running out of dun laoghaire as of tuesday!

It is running as cover for one of the ships that has been taken out of service for refurbishment following a docking incident in Holyhead.

It sails from dun laoghaire at 15.05

[Mark Gleeson]

The Nordica was in Rosslare, as the Europe is dry docked and is now in Belfast to cover the twin superfast ships

Finnarrow got into serious trouble in Holyhead on Saturday night and it most definitely is out of service

The Nordica doesn't take foot passengers, but the HSS does

The HSS was due back March 22nd anyway.

Lights were on at the terminal in Dun Laoghaire last night

[Eddie]

From Stena's website:

"Stena Line are pleased to announce that from Monday 1st April 2013 foot passenger will be able to travel on the 02:15hrs and 15:10hrs sailings from Dublin Port!"

With the Nordica having been in place since 2008, why has it taken this long? Good news though. The availability of the 0215 from Dublin port and 2030 from Holyhead offer some new Sail 'n' Rail travel opportunities.

[Traincustomer]

That's good news - particularly the 15.10 sailing ex Dublin. Even with a 18.40 arrival in Holyhead, London is reachable at just after 01.00 (change at Bangor & Birmingham). Between dedicated night buses and ordinary routes operating 24 hours a day there's about 8 bus routes serving Euston at this time and linking to a wide range of places across the city and suburbs.

The disadvantages of living in provincial Ireland and trying to use SailRail ex Dublin at present are that:

1. the 3 morning sailings (08.05 Irish Ferries conventional, 08.20 Stena Line conventional & 08.45 Irish Ferries fast ferry) are hard to access by public transport. While there are express coaches from various towns around Ireland to Dublin during the night it's unrealistic to reach Dublin at 05.00/05.30 for a sailing that's still a few hours ahead. There's nowhere to pass the time short of forking out for a taxi and a very long wait at the terminal. The first buses and trains from several provincial centres reach Dublin either too late or worryingly tight to make one of these ferries.

2. The afternoon sailings are a fastcraft from Dublin and the HSS from Dún Laoghaire (both susceptible to cancellation in windy weather).

3. The night sailings entail sitting in Holyhead for around 4 hours) awaiting the first train) and while Rosslare-Fishguard offers a viable overnight journey with no long wait, origin in Ireland and or destination in Britain may not be compatible with using the southern corridor.

An afternoon service operated by a conventional ferry essentially resolves point 2 making it possible to plan ahead further and allows the end to end journey be accomplished within a normal day. It will be interesting to see if Irish Ferries at a future date may introduce a conventional afternoon sailing (as per certain dates at Christmas).

As an aside Stena Line have also just introduced Rail and Sail via the Belfast - Liverpool (Birkenhead) route. Bookable via booking engine on UK site. Apparently they've a free shuttle bus from Hamilton Square Merseyrail station to the port. Can see it working very well as there's also an overnight option (8 hours crossing) each way daily.

The Steam Packet Company also note that Sail and Rail has been growing in recent years though that's via the routes between the Isle of Man (Douglas) and Heysham/Liverpool and not available on either the Dublin or Belfast routes (provincial Ireland to the IOM was available as a through sea-rail ticket in the 1990s or thereabouts). Incidentally the Dublin - Douglas route sees the lowest passenger figures of all of the company's regular routes - it used to be ahead of Belfast in terms of usage but now it's far below it.

[ThomasJ]

Yep good news indeed!

Also noticed that the stena line website is taking foot passengers for ALL sailings on the Dublin/dun laoghaire-holyhead route!

[Mark Gleeson]

Looks like the Nordica's passenger certificate has been increased at overhaul, previously it was 400, HSS, Adventurer and Ulysses all take 1500+

[Jamie2k9]

17.55 Rosslare to Connolly moves to 19.15 departure from 4 June to allow ferry connections.

[Mark Gleeson]

Only took 3 years...

This is very much a summer trial, we were asked by Irish Rail about possible changes at the start of the year.

Rule one was no extra trains.

Downside is now an 6+ hour gap in service in the afternoon which isn't great, there is no real way around this unless you want to run more trains and also move the current 16:36 from Dublin back to 15:36 to Wexford and run the 17:36 to Rosslare

[Jamie2k9]

Its only in booking system until 31 August, while on Sundays it departs at 19.00 and operates to Bray, then by DART.

[Inniskeen]

What a mess !

Not much notice for existing passengers who might have organised themselves around the current timetable.

I presume the Sunday service is an extra service ? - surely there is a through service on Sunday evening from Wexford.

[ACustomer]

Inniskeen: the journey planner shows no though service on Sundays after about 2pm, just the 1915 with a change at Bray. Absolutely incredible and guaranteed to lose custom (assuming that they haven't made some sort of silly mistake in the timetable - you never know).

[Inniskeen]

The Sunday arrangement guarantees a miserable experience for passengers and no doubt plenty of confusion, annoyance and bad publicity in Bray. I would imagine the Dublin bound Sunday Rosslare/Wexford service still loads a few hundred passengers, cerainly enough to fill a four-car Japanese DART.

This is a daft arrangement and should be stamped on by the NTA, particularly the Sunday arrangement.

If I am not mistaken there is an empty train from Wexford to Connolly every evening, Monday to Friday. Could this not run to Rosslare instead and let the 1637 from Connolly return as the "boat train", running in a later path.

A 1637 to Rosslare on Summer Saturdays could enhance the existing skeletal service on the line and might well generate sufficient business to justify running all year.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have discussed this at length with Irish Rail and basically any change has to be at no cost, no extra trains

The issue with the 19:00 appears to be a data entry error in the timetable and we are awaiting update from IE

UK side are not aware of these changes so through booking not available currently, I have already been in contact with Arriva Trains Wales and they are now taking action however it could take some time to get things setup due the nature of the UK rail industry.

[Jamie2k9]

Appears the DART change was an error, journey planner now direct.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4835&p=116&n=237

Changes to departure times on some Rosslare line services


29 May 2013

Service Alterations on the Rosslare line for The Gathering

Iarnród Éireann will have amended service times on the Rosslare line from 4th June 2013 until 2nd September 2013 to provide greater connectivity for those returning to Ireland by ferry for the Gathering through Rosslare Europort.


- The 17:55 Rosslare Europort to Connolly will be deferred until 19:15 Monday to Saturday.

- The 17:36 Connolly to Wexford service will depart at usual time but there will be an extended journey time between Enniscorthy and Wexford with an arrival time of 20:25 into Wexford Monday to Friday.

- On Sundays the 17.40 Rosslare Europort to Connolly will be deferred to 19:00.

[comcor]

That's a massive improvement

Having arrived into Rosslare just after 6pm before, it was a painful experience to find no trains and the only bus option involving a change in Enniscorthy

[Inniskeen]

Or just not mentioned in the hastily prepared notice on the website.

Terminating the Sunday evening service from Rossare at Bray and returning empty would save an empty working from Dublin on Monday mornings ?

Is that the angle perhaps ?

[Inniskeen]

That's a massive improvement

Having arrived into Rosslare just after 6pm before, it was a painful experience to find no trains and the only bus option involving a change in Enniscorthy

It may well be an improvement but making such a significant change at a few days notice just isn't acceptable. Remember all the angst when the evening service to Nenagh was advanced to 1705 last year.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 19:00 on Sunday runs through to Connolly, there was a data entry error, if you enter Dun Laoghaire it got that far it was just the city centre end was missing.

Arriva Trains Wales found out about the change at 7am this morning thanks to an email RUI sent, the manager there has always been extremely helpful.

We have met with Stena Line management as well, again very helpful, note foot passengers now carried on Stena Nordica and slight timetable changes to HSS timetable.

[Eddie]

Really pleased to hear of one more sensible rail connection to / from Rosslare, albeit at short notice. It must have been pretty difficult for Stena and Aviva to market their Sail & Rail option without their daytime sailing connecting with a train this side of the water too. In time I'd like to see a train to Rosslare meeting the morning departure too, but let's see how this one fares for now. I imagine it'll take a bit of time to build up awareness; hopefully there'll be enough new traffic to sustain it beyond September.

Incidentally Mark, if you're talking to Stena, you might want to point out to them that their Sail and Rail Timetable on their website hasn't been altered to reflect the change to the HSS sailing that has been in place since February. And no timetable connections have been added to reflect the Nordica is now taking footpassengers.

[Mark Gleeson]

Both HSS and Nordica are bookable through the UK rail booking system currently.

[Traincustomer]

Meant to say compliments to RUI for its work in helping to improve the interface between ferry and rail.

[Colm Moore]

A note has been added to the timetable page today and a PDF of the revised timetable added.

http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables

New Dublin-Rosslare Europort Timetable 4th June Onwards (http://www.irishrail.ie/media/08-DublinRosslareEuroport-0406131.pdf)

[Mark Gleeson]

As of today Sail Rail booking via Rosslare has been restored from the UK side

Big thanks to our friends in Arriva Trains Wales who sorted this out at short notice

[Thomas Ralph]

It sure is. Can be booked online via www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk (if it's having a good day), www.raileasy.com (booking fee applies), at most staffed stations, or over the phone from most TOCs.

[Inniskeen]

Any feedback on the usage of the re-scheduled Rosslare to Dublin evening services ?

[Eddie]

Incidentally Mark, if you're talking to Stena, you might want to point out to them that their Sail and Rail Timetable on their website hasn't been altered to reflect the change to the HSS sailing that has been in place since February. And no timetable connections have been added to reflect the Nordica is now taking footpassengers.

HSS timings amended, but Nordica connections not added.

[Eddie]

From Wexford People:

"IRISH Rail plans to make permanent the later departure of the train from Rosslare to Dublin to allow time for passengers arriving by ferry from Wales to connect with the service.
Wexford’s Deputy Mayor Cllr. Joe Ryan said he had a meeting with Irish Rail at which he had been told that as more passengers than expected had used the service it was to remain in place with a 7.15 p.m. departure time.

Under the previous timetable, the last train from Rosslare left before ferry passengers were able to make the connection. Irish Rail also confirmed to Cllr Ryan their intention to re-configure trains to provide additional seating on the Rosslare Dublin route."

I wonder how many passengers is "more passengers than expected"?

[Mark Gleeson]

Well let me put it this way, passenger numbers have not fallen...

I have had discussions with Irish Rail management and communication with Arriva Trains Wales. The schedule change needs to be permanent and a decision on 2014 needs to be made by October at the latest to ensure Stena Line can include it in the 2014 schedule and promotional material

[Jamie2k9]

Well let me put it this way, passenger numbers have not fallen...

I have had discussions with Irish Rail management and communication with Arriva Trains Wales. The schedule change needs to be permanent and a decision on 2014 needs to be made by October at the latest to ensure Stena Line can include it in the 2014 schedule and promotional material

Lest hope the whole timetable in October has being decided in principal to avoid what happened last year.

I was a foot passenger around 10 days ago, wasn't on the service that connects with the 19.15 service but in general passengers were better than I expected.

[Eddie]

I see the 19.15 departure from Rosslare has reverted back to the 17.55.

Were there not plans to make the change permanent or was the experiment not deemed successful enough?

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail never had plans to make it permanent, unless there was a clear financial benefit to do so.

The business case did not make sense, many complaints from existing passengers plus the operating costs were higher.

Returning to the status quo was financially beneficial.

[Traincustomer]

Two positive snippets:

1. Rosslare: At the end of last week I was a passenger on the train scheduled to arrive into Europort @ 19.25hrs (was heading for one of the ferries). Of the passengers exiting the station, 15 others also made for the ferry terminal. Individuals and two or so small groups; lots of travel bags/cases plus there was a port luggage trolley in action.

2. Irish Ferries SailRail: The Irish Ferries €6 handling fee for SailRail credit card bookings (one of the earlier and valid criticisms of the Irish Ferries SailRail offering) has gone and is replaced by a €3 administration fee (this has been in place since early this Summer - perhaps considerably longer).

[Mark Gleeson]

They could be going to for the bus, who knows.

There is an overnight connection in both directions and rail sail on that was always significantly more than day time

[joey]

I cannot understand why the rail connections do not exist to meet ferries departing or arriving at rosslare... these should be a given...

whether the numbers add up, financially viable, anything, whatever... there should be connections for ferry foot passengers!

What sort of impression are we sending out to travellers entering or departing?

[Jamie2k9]

I cannot understand why the rail connections do not exist to meet ferries departing or arriving at rosslare... these should be a given...

whether the numbers add up, financially viable, anything, whatever... there should be connections for ferry foot passengers!

What sort of impression are we sending out to travellers entering or departing?

Its called commercial sense, I as a rail user don't want my fares wasted on something that is not used and is costing the company.

You use the Sligo line a lot, so would you prefer all ferry connections to be maintained at the expense of a daily service on the Sligo route, at the end of the day it all boils down to cost and demand.

[DundalkStudent]

Regarding the business viability: demand does not just always appear at once. It can build up over time as more and more people become aware of a permanent service that is easy/beneficial or that becomes so based on later developments.

It is similar to the case of the m50. When it was first built everyone asked me why I drove on it? Sure the back roads are faster and no toll. Plus there's nothing on it/ around it that you need to get to. Then all the businesses and apartments started locating themselves there because there was good infrastructure links. And now, you know the rest of the story.

Look at the "greater dublin" commuter lines. On the run into dublin from Dundalk, twice as many people (plus) get on at balbriggan than any other station before. What's wrong with Gormanstown station you ask? Nothing except the price drops significantly between the two as balbriggan is in the short hop and Gormanstown isn't. So you have people living in Gormanstown and further afield driving to balbriggan and getting the train there. I'd do it if I could! A massive demand was created by a permanent situation that was easy/beneficial. I don't think that demand would just exist on its own.

IE need to do the proper research / strategy work to build a vision of where they want to go and what they want to do and then move toward that. Now, perhaps they've already done that and they've decided city commuters are their target market and where they will direct their energies strategically. But they'd want to be careful because it's a case of eggs and baskets.

As a service provider you should want to diversify your revenue bases so that you're not held to ransom by one type of customer such that tipping points and dips don't cause catastrophies.

Now THAT is good business sense.

[berneyarms]

The problem with the Rosslare line was, from what I've read and heard, that there were far more complaints from people along the line about the evening service from Rosslare to Dublin being so late than new users actually using it, that IE were not really gaining from delaying it.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Delaying that train will only work if there is an additional service from Rosslare in the mid-late afternoon, and in the current climate that is not going to happen.

[berneyarms]

Regarding the business viability: demand does not just always appear at once. It can build up over time as more and more people become aware of a permanent service that is easy/beneficial or that becomes so based on later developments.

It is similar to the case of the m50. When it was first built everyone asked me why I drove on it? Sure the back roads are faster and no toll. Plus there's nothing on it/ around it that you need to get to. Then all the businesses and apartments started locating themselves there because there was good infrastructure links. And now, you know the rest of the story.

Look at the "greater dublin" commuter lines. On the run into dublin from Dundalk, twice as many people (plus) get on at balbriggan than any other station before. What's wrong with Gormanstown station you ask? Nothing except the price drops significantly between the two as balbriggan is in the short hop and Gormanstown isn't. So you have people living in Gormanstown and further afield driving to balbriggan and getting the train there. I'd do it if I could! A massive demand was created by a permanent situation that was easy/beneficial. I don't think that demand would just exist on its own.

IE need to do the proper research / strategy work to build a vision of where they want to go and what they want to do and then move toward that. Now, perhaps they've already done that and they've decided city commuters are their target market and where they will direct their energies strategically. But they'd want to be careful because it's a case of eggs and baskets.

As a service provider you should want to diversify your revenue bases so that you're not held to ransom by one type of customer such that tipping points and dips don't cause catastrophies.

Now THAT is good business sense.

The NTA are in the process of revising the fare structures over a period of time to try to eliminate disparities, but you are always going to face that problem where a suburban fares matrix and intercity matrix meet. The border has to be somewhere!!

[comcor]

To be honest, I occasionally use the Wexford-Dublin train and I liked the later departure. It still got into Dublin at a reasonable hour and it extends the day I get in Wexford.

One issue is that people will complain, but not speak up and say that they like something. The true impact will have been seen in the numbers using the service; I'd like to think Irish Rail used those to asses whether the service was continued or not.

[berneyarms]

To be honest, I occasionally use the Wexford-Dublin train and I liked the later departure. It still got into Dublin at a reasonable hour and it extends the day I get in Wexford.

One issue is that people will complain, but not speak up and say that they like something. The true impact will have been seen in the numbers using the service; I'd like to think Irish Rail used those to asses whether the service was continued or not.

I'd imagine that numbers would indeed be the method of assessment.

[Mark Gleeson]

It was a decision based on the numbers.

Bear in mind the revised schedule cost more to run also and the yield from a rail sail ticket is 50% if not less than a normal ticket

[Traincustomer]

On the yield aspect is the 50% an average figure or does it refer to specific lines/the UK side of things? Certainly the differential over there would be higher.

Looking at fares along the Dublin-Rosslare line (via Fishguard) the differential is largely marginal and fluctuates between the SailRail fare being a bit higher, about the same or a bit lower (than buying separate tickets). For example:

Enniscorthy to Cardiff €50 single (SailRail bought in advance)
Bought separately (single train ticket on outward day of travel & SailRail advance return booked by day before &collected on check-in at the port) it's also €50.

Wexford to Swansea €50 single (SailRail bought in advance).
Bought separately it's cheaper and the total comes in at €45.60.

Wicklow to Carmarthen return €108 (SailRail bought in advance). Bought separately it's the same or a tenner cheaper if an online return can be purchased for the Wicklow-Rosslare leg.

Dublin Connolly to Llanelli €108 (SailRail bought in advance). Bought separately it's €112 with potential to reduce that to under €100 (cheaper than SailRail) if an online fare is bagged. Problem though that it's not possible to book online for the connecting train in the evening (16.37 ex Connolly) but is possible to book online for the connection out of Rosslare in the morning (the 07.20).

The likes of Cork to Manchester (via Holyhead) seem to be where the higher percentages come into play e.g. Advance SailRail is €60 single whereas buying separately on the day would be €108. But buying separately in advance and bagging a €14.99 online single for Cork-Dublin could see the total being €54.99.

So a case of several variables and it seems much of a muchness in these cases.

[joey]

Its called commercial sense, I as a rail user don't want my fares wasted on something that is not used and is costing the company.

You use the Sligo line a lot, so would you prefer all ferry connections to be maintained at the expense of a daily service on the Sligo route, at the end of the day it all boils down to cost and demand.

It's more curiosity than anything being honest. And given the fact I am planing a trip on the ferry from rosslare soon I had planned on taking the train to n from rosslare and meeting the ferry as a foot passenger. Plus also the roadworks on the N11, but I just prefer the train in general to driving.

I wonder what foot passengers do upon arrival in the evening, without a train nor bus available for onward travel. The morning return is not accommodating, like the ferry connection leaves wales at 0245

[Jamie2k9]

It's more curiosity than anything being honest. And given the fact I am planing a trip on the ferry from rosslare soon I had planned on taking the train to n from rosslare and meeting the ferry as a foot passenger. Plus also the roadworks on the N11, but I just prefer the train in general to driving.

I wonder what foot passengers do upon arrival in the evening, without a train nor bus available for onward travel. The morning return is not accommodating, like the ferry connection leaves wales at 0245

well I hope people who travel makes plans and would know a train doesn't meet.

Don't understand your comment about the 02.45 departure form Wales, connects with train at both ends and bus to Waterford/Cork/Limerick to.

On a more general note Irish Ferries have just announced increased frequency between Dublin and Hollyhead from December a new ship will be added to the route along with 2 extra sailings daily.

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/news/news131107/

[joey]

I fully understand there is a connection upon arrival into Rosslare in the morning, however this means departing Wales at 0245. I also understand that there is a connection for the evening departure from Rosslare at 2045.


There are no connections for the morning 0845 departure from Rosslare to Wales, nor the evening return 1445 departing Wales arriving 1845 at Rosslare

Id be interested to hear views from other travellers on how they arrange onward travel, they cant all drive.

Anyhow thats what I'll end up doing, drive.

[berneyarms]

I fully understand there is a connection upon arrival into Rosslare in the morning, however this means departing Wales at 0245. I also understand that there is a connection for the evening departure from Rosslare at 2045.


There are no connections for the morning 0845 departure from Rosslare to Wales, nor the evening return 1445 departing Wales arriving 1845 at Rosslare

Id be interested to hear views from other travellers on how they arrange onward travel, they cant all drive.

Anyhow thats what I'll end up doing, drive.

There are connections of one form or another for all Stena sailings.

Outbound Stena Line Sailings:
09:00 - Connection off 07:00 Bus Eireann route 40 from Waterford
21:00 - Connection off 16:36 train from Dublin

Inbound Stena Line Sailings:
02:45 arrive 06:15 - Connection into 07:20 train to Dublin and 07:00 Bus Eireann route 40 to Waterford
14:30 arrive 18:00 - Connection into 19:00 Bus Eireann route 40 to Waterford.

You seem to be talking about Irish Ferries to/from Pembroke. There have never been specific rail/bus connections (excepting Eurolines) into the Irish Ferries services to/from Pembroke Dock as there is no direct rail connection into them on the UK side. The railway station in Pembroke Dock is some way away from the ferry terminal. I'd imagine that there is very little foot traffic on that route.

Bus Eireann operate Eurolines route 890 from Cork, Waterford and Wexford to South Wales, Bristol, Reading and London using the Irish Ferries overnight sailings via Rosslare and Pembroke Dock.

[Traincustomer]

just a suggestion that may be of help if using the 02.45 out of Fishguard you could consider getting a cabin. It's not going give a full night's sleep but it'll give a few hours. 2-berth en-suite cabins are €40/£32.

Re: Rosslare-Pembroke Dock - SailRail was tried around the turn of this century (shuttle bus between Pembroke Dock ferry terminal and station) but it was then dropped due to poor/low demand. Megabus run an overnight shipside service between London and Pembroke Dock in connection with the night-time Irish Ferries sailing each way. The plus of the Eurolines and Megabus services is that they run through to London. The downside is that they take longer than the train from Fishguard though rail passengers must change trains in South Wales.

The Rosslare-Pembroke route is handy for anyone travelling to the immediate area and the likes of Tenby.

Good news about a third Irish Ferries vessel on the central corridor. Presumably foot passengers and SailRail will be accepted though I could understand if they're not as there's already several options between Dublin and Holyhead. The press release mentions targeting the freight and tourism markets, though the latter is very broad and you'd expect it implies tourists travelling by all means.

[comcor]

At one point, Stena seemed to be considering a different sailing plan, which would see them cut their turnaround times and then have a longer overnight sailing that would have made getting a cabin and 6 hours sleep more practical.

It would also have brought back the arrival time of the afternoon sailing from Fishguard to Rosslare.

I would guess that as we haven't seen it appear in any 2014 timetables that it's not going to happen now, which is a pity from the rail integration perspective.

[Traincustomer]

Maybe they might look at it again in the future (that's just what I hope and not based on anything). It would be quite appealing.

[Traincustomer]

On a more general note Irish Ferries have just announced increased frequency between Dublin and Hollyhead from December a new ship will be added to the route along with 2 extra sailings daily.

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/news/news131107/

Have learned that it's only available to passengers travelling with/in a vehicle. That said I don't see it as an issue (but it was good to mention it) as the Stena Nordica sails at very similar times (SailRail available on Stena Nordica).

[Jamie2k9]

When the Nordica started it didn't allow foot passengers so expect the same will follow from IF.

[ThomasJ]

Additional sailings from Irish ferries coming 24th November. Seems to be a response to the changes stena line made for foot passengers earlier this year.

http://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/routes/dublin-holyhead/

[Thomas Ralph]

When the Nordica started it didn't allow foot passengers so expect the same will follow from IF.

I wonder what the point of that is meant to be.

[Traincustomer]

A notice advising the times during which SailRail tickets may be purchased at Connolly has been on display at the ticket office in recent times:

Mon-Sat inclusive: between 09.30 & 12.30 and between 14.30 & 16.30
Sunday: between 11.30 and 15.30

Basically off-peak times.

[plant43]

A notice advising the times during which SailRail tickets may be purchased at Connolly has been on display at the ticket office in recent times:

Mon-Sat inclusive: between 09.30 & 12.30 and between 14.30 & 16.30
Sunday: between 11.30 and 15.30

Basically off-peak times.

Makes sense - buying a sail'n'rail ticket there is quite a long process.

[Traincustomer]

Some months ago when I was buying one at Connolly a second staff member came to issue the ticket. This seems a more customer-friendly approach than limiting the hours for purchases.

[plant43]

Does anyone know if you can break a journey overnight using sail'n'rail if you cannot complete the journey on the same day?

I'm planning to get the 1510 Stena Line ferry to Holyhead and I won't be able to reach my destination on the same day (the National Rail planner confirms as much).

Thanks.

[James Howard]

While on the subject, does anybody know if I can buy a one-way UK to Ireland SailRail ticket in Ireland? I'm going to the UK by other means in the next month or so and wanted to SailRail home,

[berneyarms]

You should be via the Arriva Trains Wales website

[berneyarms]

Does anyone know if you can break a journey overnight using sail'n'rail if you cannot complete the journey on the same day?

I'm planning to get the 1510 Stena Line ferry to Holyhead and I won't be able to reach my destination on the same day (the National Rail planner confirms as much).

Thanks.

That should be perfectly allowable, provided you resume your trip at the first opportunity.

[haddockman]

You should be via the Arriva Trains Wales website

Or Irish Ferries, they do online sail/rail bookings.

[plant43]

Or Irish Ferries, they do online sail/rail bookings.

Not for journeys originating from the UK.

[Jamie2k9]

From 3 June to 31 August the evening service between Rosslare and Dublin is defered to 18.35 Monday-Sunday to connect with the ferry. However regular customers on the 17.36 ex Connolly won't be to pleased with a long wait in Gorey.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/08_-_dublin_rosslare_europort_030614.pdf?v=ga4dkqy

Guessing haveing it 40 minutes earlier than last summer is to keep costs the same all year round?

[berneyarms]

And the good news is that it is set up on the British National Rail Enquiries planner, so through sail/rail bookings can be made on it.

[Traincustomer]

The Stena Line 2014 SailRail brochure (edition 1 published in April) is available from the leaflet racks in Connolly and details fares on their routes ex Rosslare, Dun Laoghaire, Dublin and Belfast (into Scotland via Cairnryan).

It's been a few years since I've seen any SailRail take away literature at stations here so this is welcome.

[Traincustomer]

While on the subject, does anybody know if I can buy a one-way UK to Ireland SailRail ticket in Ireland? I'm going to the UK by other means in the next month or so and wanted to SailRail home,

Just saw this now and maybe I'm already too late to help for your forthcoming journey.

A few years ago I bought an England-Ireland SailRail from Irish Rail over the 'phone without any issues (was posted out to me but deadline for this method is a week before travel). Normally buy a return from here or buy single over there/online.

Longford station should be able to issue one too.

[James Howard]

Thanks for that. I'll give it a whirl in Longford and see if they can make that work. Although the last time I checked, I could have had a flight for half the money but that isn't really the point.

[Traincustomer]

No problem James. Hope you get sorted.

[Eddie]

Saw this on the Irish Ferries website:

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/news/News140617/

First paragraph suggests that you can book Irish Ferries Rail and Sail tickets through Pembroke, which I don't think is correct - only Stena services come up if you try to book a ticket through to Rosslare.

I see that several stations can be booked directly to and from Ireland.

You can even get a quote for a one way ticket from Ireland (in sterling) but regrettably only gives UK stations as possible machines you can pick the tickets up from.

[James Howard]

I've figured out why normal people don't bother with Sail & Rail any more. Talk about a rigmarole booking a ticket. I went into Longford and spent 15 minutes waiting while the ticket agent finished up her phone call - I'm not exaggerating here. I gave up waiting at that stage and stormed off in a huff.

So then I tried the internet. It doesn't appear to be possible to book Stena at all on the internet and half of their ferries don't take foot passengers anyway. So I tried ringing them and they said that they just give you an open rail ticket for the journey but I would have preferred a seat booking so I gave up on that.

So I tried Irish Ferries who are by far the best of a bad lot. But when I wanted to book a club class ticket for the ferry, this is not possible on-line and it says to send them an email.

So after several emails which obviously weren't read on their side (they couldn't seem to get their head around the fact that I lived in Ireland and was booking a ticket from England), I did what I should have done in the first place and rang. This produced results and they were quite efficient in being able to lift the details off my email trail and I got a ticket booked.

The next thing I got an email confirming that I had booked a ferry ticket but no mention of a rail ticket, which resulted in yet another phone call where they said that this always happens and to just confirm the rail part of the journey when I got the ticket in the post.

In the course of this, I spent 5 minutes seeing what a flight would cost which would have resulted in a ticket costing about 2 euro less (including a checked bag) on Aer Lingus. So for flying, less money and a 5 minute booking process while Sail & Rail took me 3 phone calls, a few web sessions, 5 emails and a booking office visit.

It is a pity it is all so complicated - I am looking forward to the journey and figure that it is a much more civilised way to travel than flying.

[haddockman]

This is the thing. The last few times I have travelled to London, sail/rail has come out way more expensive than a Ryanair flight to Stansted and taking the train from there into the city.

When you factor in the silly booking procedures the plane is winning hands down.

[plant43]

I've figured out why normal people don't bother with Sail & Rail any more. Talk about a rigmarole booking a ticket. I went into Longford and spent 15 minutes waiting while the ticket agent finished up her phone call - I'm not exaggerating here. I gave up waiting at that stage and stormed off in a huff.

So then I tried the internet. It doesn't appear to be possible to book Stena at all on the internet and half of their ferries don't take foot passengers anyway. So I tried ringing them and they said that they just give you an open rail ticket for the journey but I would have preferred a seat booking so I gave up on that.

So I tried Irish Ferries who are by far the best of a bad lot. But when I wanted to book a club class ticket for the ferry, this is not possible on-line and it says to send them an email.

So after several emails which obviously weren't read on their side (they couldn't seem to get their head around the fact that I lived in Ireland and was booking a ticket from England), I did what I should have done in the first place and rang. This produced results and they were quite efficient in being able to lift the details off my email trail and I got a ticket booked.

The next thing I got an email confirming that I had booked a ferry ticket but no mention of a rail ticket, which resulted in yet another phone call where they said that this always happens and to just confirm the rail part of the journey when I got the ticket in the post.

In the course of this, I spent 5 minutes seeing what a flight would cost which would have resulted in a ticket costing about 2 euro less (including a checked bag) on Aer Lingus. So for flying, less money and a 5 minute booking process while Sail & Rail took me 3 phone calls, a few web sessions, 5 emails and a booking office visit.

It is a pity it is all so complicated - I am looking forward to the journey and figure that it is a much more civilised way to travel than flying.

Just a couple of things

- not being able to buy club class before boarding is not really a big issue. There's no cost difference and it rarely (if ever) sells out. In fact, I tried to buy it at Holyhead before was told to buy it on the ship.

- the sail'n'rail tickets sold by Irish Ferries/Irish Rail/Stena in Ireland are always of the open type with no reservations (I actually think that's an advantage - buying from the UK means you have to travel on the trains that you are booked on, which means less flexibility) You could try ringing the train companies in the UK and getting a seat reservation that way (I think it's free in most cases)

[James Howard]

My point is that as a first time customer, the process is overly complicated. I want to make a booking and not have to mess about. It is massively simpler to book a flight.

I do travel by ferry with the car relatively frequently but haven't used Irish Ferries for years so I don't know if the Club class gets booked out. Stena Plus can get very busy on the peak services. The last time I came through Rosslare it was actually booked out.

I don't think very many people will choose SailRail now for price so it is particularly odd that there is no way of choosing a First Class product when booking at all. You can't book First Class train tickets at all and apparently you can't even upgrade on the train but I would think that they might quite quite a bit of interest in a more premium product.

Mind you, looking at the price of First Class ticket in the UK perhaps not. Does anybody buy these tickets with their own money? I had a look at a random train on a Saturday in September and the cheapest 1st ticket is 6 times the price of the cheapest standard.

[Traincustomer]

I've figured out why normal people don't bother with Sail & Rail any more. Talk about a rigmarole booking a ticket. I went into Longford and spent 15 minutes waiting while the ticket agent finished up her phone call - I'm not exaggerating here. I gave up waiting at that stage and stormed off in a huff.

Having had my fair share of frustrating SailRail experiences (mainly the booking & information side of things) with Irish Rail, Stena Line & Irish Ferries over the last number of years I am disappointed to hear of the difficulties you experienced as a first time user.

Irish Rail's Passenger Charter states:

During advertised hours of business, you should be able to buy your ticket in seven minutes or less. Outside our busy peak periods, we aim to serve you within three minutes. This excludes exceptional circumstances.


Have never booked SailRail at Longford but have used the station and bought "domestic" tickets there from time to time and generally find staff helpful including one winter night when I missed a bus and needed to get a taxi number.

So then I tried the internet. It doesn't appear to be possible to book Stena at all on the internet and half of their ferries don't take foot passengers anyway. So I tried ringing them and they said that they just give you an open rail ticket for the journey but I would have preferred a seat booking so I gave up on that.

All Stena Line sailings from Holyhead (Dun Laoghaire & Dublin) and Fishguard-Rosslare take foot passengers. The Stena Nordica from Holyhead used to not take foot passengers but now does. Possibly there is some web-based information which hasn't been updated still out there.

So I tried Irish Ferries who are by far the best of a bad lot. But when I wanted to book a club class ticket for the ferry, this is not possible on-line and it says to send them an email.

As a related aside it's possible to purchase Irish Ferries Club Class as an add-on when booking from this side to England/Wales online. I rarely upgrade - the last time I wished to do so was from Rosslare to Fishguard but the Stena Plus was booked out several days ahead.

If travelling via Fishguard-Rosslare it's possible to upgrade to first class at the weekend for the London/Bristol/South Wales element of the journey (http://firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Routemaps/Weekend-First-Zones.pdf) with First Great Western (first class not available with Arriva on the leg to/from Fishguard).

A similar offering seems to be available with Virgin Trains at weekends (http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/weekend-first-class/) though I've never tried this upgrade.

It is a pity it is all so complicated - I am looking forward to the journey and figure that it is a much more civilised way to travel than flying.

I find the Arriva Trains Wales site (http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/SailRail/Buy/) to be the best site if booking an England/Wales to Ireland SailRail. I look forward to the day when one can visit the Irish Rail site and book their entire SailRail trip online and get a reservation number enabling ticket/coupon pick up at any ticket vending machine.

Hope your trip is plain sailing and railing :-)

[Traincustomer]

Saw this on the Irish Ferries website:

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/news/News140617/

First paragraph suggests that you can book Irish Ferries Rail and Sail tickets through Pembroke, which I don't think is correct - only Stena services come up if you try to book a ticket through to Rosslare.

I see that several stations can be booked directly to and from Ireland.

You can even get a quote for a one way ticket from Ireland (in sterling) but regrettably only gives UK stations as possible machines you can pick the tickets up from.

Pembroke must have been a typo in that press release. Never say never but I'd be surprised if SailRail is reinstated on that route given the rail station in Pembroke Dock is about a mile from the ferry terminal whereas Megabus and Eurolines bring people right to the terminal/onto the ship.

A nice touch on Irish Ferries vessel on the Pembroke-Rosslare run is that they have rail info for Wales available beside the information desk - a poster plus takeaway booklets.

[Traincustomer]

A video outlining the essence of SailRail on the Dublin to Holyhead route is available towards the bottom of the SailRail page at:

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/offers/sail-rail/

[James Howard]

Interesting how they forgot about the overcrowding, cancelled club class, massive queues and rude staff that I experience a couple of weeks ago on RailSail. I travel by ferry with the car a couple of times a year - always by Stena line and won't be darkening Irish Ferries' door again for some time to come.

[Traincustomer]

Disappointed to hear of this unsatisfactory experience. It may be worth dropping Irish Ferries a line or e-mail.

[James Howard]

I already did and sent them a list of specific issues. No point in just moaning on the internet about poor service. Companies need to know and then it is up to them whether or not they use the information. So far, 7 days later, I've not had anything back aside from acknowledgement of receipt.

The train journey from Oxford was quite nice. The first two trains (Oxford to Birmingham New Street and BNS to Crewe) were very comfortable - almost deserted, but Crewe to Holyhead was a packed Virgin Super Voyager. I'll not moan about Irish Rail so much any more as a 22K is far more comfortable even if they are a little lacking in onboard facilities. To be honest, I'd probably even prefer a 29K to the Virgin train which I though was very cramped.

[comcor]

My turn for a Sail-Rail question...

I'm going to need to get from Cardiff to Wexford shortly, although I think I can get collected from Rosslare, so I won't be tied to being on the overnight ferry.

I have a couple of questions

On the Arriva Trains Wales website, the date I want is just beyond the threshold. Unlike Irish Rail, this doesn't seem to go one day at a time, but instead jumps several weeks in one go. It moved yesterday to just short of the date I want. Does anyone know how long I'll be waiting until they move it again?
Regarding reservations, it says "Yes. Reservations are compulsory on Stena Line and Irish Ferries services and on all Advance train journeys. A place will be booked on the ferry for you at time of purchase. Failure to obtain a reservation may result in you not being allowed to board the vessel." This is a bit confusing to me. Is booking the ticket online enough to have the reservation or is there another step?
If I choose to pick up the tickets from the vending machine in Cardiff Central Station, do I just get a single rail-like ticket that specifies Cardiff to Rosslare via Fishguard? Is that enough to present myself for check-in on the boat?

[Traincustomer]

1. I know what you mean but never really thought about it. From time to time I have seen notices on the ATW website along the lines of Advance tickets until xx (date) now on sale. (The current note on the website is “Advance tickets now available up until 3 April 2015”).

These notices seem to appear every now and again. I have reviewed e-mails updates I receive but can’t determine the pattern – sometimes it seems there’s a month between them – other times a week or just days. Possibly the best way to get a definitive answer is an e-mail to ATW’s Customer Services (http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/contactus/) or, if possible, a message on Twitter.

2. Booking the ticket online is enough to have the reservation. When the tickets are collected the machine prints off a number of coupons one of which is the mandatory reservation coupon for the ferry which will specify Fishguard to Rosslare and the sailing date & time of the ferry.

3. That’s it. When I travelled this route towards the end of last year on an advance single and collected my tickets from the machine it generated three “coupons”: (i) a seat reservation for the train as far as Swansea; (ii)the reservation coupon for the ferry described above; (iii) the ticket per se specifying the name of the starting station and the destination (i.e. Rosslare Hr) route Fishguard Stena.

Show the Cardiff – Rosslare Hr ticket and ferry reservation coupon to check-in personnel at Fishguard. Usually they take the ticket per se and issue the ferry boarding card in its place.

The ticket & reservation coupons are printed on standard rail ticket stock.

A difference in Wales/England/Scotland is that when collecting tickets the card used to purchase the tickets must be inserted into the ticket machine. Personally I don’t like this and prefer Iarnród Éireann’s ticket collection procedure.

That's my understanding of it all anyway.

[Traincustomer]

Essentially immaterial from a SailRail perspective but in recent weeks the sailing times of the night crossings have changed slightly to:

21.15 ex Rosslare arriving Fishguard 00.30 (previously 21.00)
02.30 ex Fishguard arriving Rosslare 06.30 (previously 02.45 arr 06.15)

[comcor]

Thanks for that.

The tickets have gone on sale now, so booked :)

That change in the overnight ferry, makes the connection to the 370 bus that replaced the South Wexford rail line a bit tight, but I'd hope Bus Eireann will look at that. Only problem is that it acts as a commuter service into Waterford too, so there's limited scope for making it later. I'm not sure how many use it to get from Rosslare to destinations before New Ross anyway.

[berneyarms]

Thanks for that.

The tickets have gone on sale now, so booked :)

That change in the overnight ferry, makes the connection to the 370 bus that replaced the South Wexford rail line a bit tight, but I'd hope Bus Eireann will look at that. Only problem is that it acts as a commuter service into Waterford too, so there's limited scope for making it later. I'm not sure how many use it to get from Rosslare to destinations before New Ross anyway.

I'd say probably none.

The 370 service is purely a commuter service into Waterford. Any notion that it is a connection from the ferry, or that there are foot passengers for remote parts of South Wexford is pie in the sky, being blunt about it. Any foot passengers can however still use the 07:00 route 40 service to Waterford with connections to Cork and Limerick.

[Traincustomer]

No bother Comcor.

The 370 service is purely a commuter service into Waterford.
With respect is there a NTA or BÉ document or publication that specifically states that limitation?

Surely the role of all bus and rail services (especially subsidised routes) is to tick as many boxes as reasonably possible in terms of the journey opportunities provided, connectivity and integration. Would fully agree though that the 370, like many routes around the country, is primarily a commuter service.

At the port early one morning I did notice a fellow passenger from the Fishguard ferry boarding the 370 and one evening I was one of five passengers who used the 370 to travel to the port for the ferry (for the record I didn’t know any of the others).

Any foot passengers can however still use the 07:00 route 40 service to Waterford with connections to Cork and Limerick

As the various journey planners substantiate there’s no connection to Limerick (the Limerick service departs at 08.40; the 07.00 route 40 ex Rosslare gets into Waterford Bus Stn at 08.45 whereas the 370 arrives in at 08.30). Waiting approximately two hours for the next bus is just a replication of the sort of the user-unfriendly unintegrated service that existed when the rail service ran where passengers heading to/from any station west had long waits in Waterford.

Incidentally the commercial route 40 fares are significantly more expensive than the 370 fare, the latter originally being identical to the train fare.

All the villages in South Wexford are proper villages with a core area and residential areas.

[berneyarms]

No bother Comcor.


With respect is there a NTA or BÉ document or publication that specifically states that limitation?

Surely the role of all bus and rail services (especially subsidised routes) is to tick as many boxes as reasonably possible in terms of the journey opportunities provided, connectivity and integration. Would fully agree though that the 370, like many routes around the country, is primarily a commuter service.

At the port early one morning I did notice a fellow passenger from the Fishguard ferry boarding the 370 and one evening I was one of five passengers who used the 370 to travel to the port for the ferry (for the record I didn’t know any of the others).



As the various journey planners substantiate there’s no connection to Limerick (the Limerick service departs at 08.40; the 07.00 route 40 ex Rosslare gets into Waterford Bus Stn at 08.45 whereas the 370 arrives in at 08.30). Waiting approximately two hours for the next bus is just a replication of the sort of the user-unfriendly unintegrated service that existed when the rail service ran where passengers heading to/from any station west had long waits in Waterford.

Incidentally the commercial route 40 fares are significantly more expensive than the 370 fare, the latter originally being identical to the train fare.

All the villages in South Wexford are proper villages with a core area and residential areas.

I am not sure that the people using the 370 to commute into Waterford, the vast majority of users, would share your view.

I don't think that they'd appreciate the bus being retimed later by 15 minutes, do you?

It's one thing having all these wonderful theories, but you don't mess with people's commute by making morning services arrive later than they currently do - that's a big no no.

Maybe Stena should re-examine their schedules?

[Traincustomer]

Firstly I didn't suggest deferring the bus by any amount of time let alone by a quarter of an hour. In practice the ship's arrival time of 06.30 is a scheduled one and it often arrives in a little before that. Anyone aiming for the 370 if they were prompt disembarking would probably still make it.

What came across as unwarranted were the pie in the sky comments about South Wexford.

[berneyarms]

Firstly I didn't suggest deferring the bus by any amount of time let alone by a quarter of an hour. In practice the ship's arrival time of 06.30 is a scheduled one and it often arrives in a little before that. Anyone aiming for the 370 if they were prompt disembarking would probably still make it.

What came across as unwarranted were the pie in the sky comments about South Wexford.

Apologies - that was the previous poster who seemed to be suggesting that the bus timetable should be changed.

But I'd stand over the thrust of my comment - that specific service needs to be scheduled for the vast majority of its users and that's the commuter traffic into Waterford. Any foot passenger traffic would be negligible in comparison to that.

Again the question arises - why has the shipping company changed their schedule to create this problem in the first place?

[comcor]

I did actually acknowledge the impact at the other side of the timetable. Nevertheless, it should be possible to deal with it by removing the padding. Last time I used the service, it was scheduled to take 20 minutes from Ramsgrange to Wellingtonbridge; it took about 12.

That morning bus doesn't go the slow route, but it does allow 50 minutes to get from Bridgetown to New Ross, which seems excessively generous, even allowing for the lower speeds on a bus and picking up passengers in Wellingtonbridge.

[Traincustomer]

Apologies
Fair enough.

Again the question arises - why has the shipping company changed their schedule to create this problem in the first place?
Presumably to effect fuel savings as per other routes/ferry operators. Some of the sailings from Rosslare to Cherbourg have increased passage times too in that route's 2015 Sailing Schedule which was introduced last week.

I did actually acknowledge the impact at the other side of the timetable. Nevertheless, it should be possible to deal with it by removing the padding. Last time I used the service, it was scheduled to take 20 minutes from Ramsgrange to Wellingtonbridge; it took about 12.

That morning bus doesn't go the slow route, but it does allow 50 minutes to get from Bridgetown to New Ross, which seems excessively generous, even allowing for the lower speeds on a bus and picking up passengers in Wellingtonbridge.

I agree there is a level of padding in the schedule. Last time I was on the bus it took 42 minutes to travel from New Ross to Bridgetown including several stops (and for the record I should say that's driving at an ordinary speed appropriate to the roads - which in places are twisty).

[berneyarms]

I did actually acknowledge the impact at the other side of the timetable. Nevertheless, it should be possible to deal with it by removing the padding. Last time I used the service, it was scheduled to take 20 minutes from Ramsgrange to Wellingtonbridge; it took about 12.

That morning bus doesn't go the slow route, but it does allow 50 minutes to get from Bridgetown to New Ross, which seems excessively generous, even allowing for the lower speeds on a bus and picking up passengers in Wellingtonbridge.

I agree there is a level of padding in the schedule. Last time I was on the bus it took 42 minutes to travel from New Ross to Bridgetown including several stops (and for the record I should say that's driving at an ordinary speed appropriate to the roads - which in places are twisty).

I'd prefer to have a bus schedule that has recovery time built into it than one that does not, particularly on commuter runs.

Having that built into it means that the timetable is sufficiently robust.

There have been far too many complaints on boards.ie about bus timetables that are not realistic and that buses are arriving late.

[Eddie]

All SailRail fares are by €1 for 2015.

As per last year, IF fares are all €3 more than Stenas, not sure why. Think it might be historic , in that IF used to charge a €6 fee for credit cards and nothing for debit cards, and decided to average it out. I've never had to pay a credit card surcharge with Stena though.

[Traincustomer]

The 15.10 sailing to Holyhead now has a connecting bus departing Westmoreland Street at 14.00.

The 12.10 arrival (08.55 ex Holyhead) has a connecting bus operating to Connolly, Westmoreland Street and (if required) extends to Heuston.

These additional services only seem to have been introduced since the Stena Superfast X was introduced on the route last month (the passenger capacity of the previous ferry, Stena Nordica, was significantly less).

For the record the current times are as follows - from Westmoreland Street to the terminal:

For 08.20 sailing to Holyhead bus departs Westmoreland Street at 07.15
For the 15.10 sailing to Holyhead bus departs Westmoreland Street at 14.00
For the 20.40 sailing to Holyhead bus departs Westmoreland Street at 19.00

From the terminal the following sailings are met by a bus operating to Connolly, Westmoreland Street and Heuston:

05.45 arrival (02.30 ex Holyhead)
12.10 arrival (08.55 ex Holyhead)
17.05 arrival (13.50 ex Holyhead)

Note there is no bus connection either off the 23.45 arrival (20.30 ex Holyhead) or for the 02.15 sailing to Holyhead.

Adult fares are €2.50 single from Westmoreland St. to the port or €5 return. Port to Heuston single is €4. Child fares half this. Fares payable to the driver – cash only.

All of the services are operated by Mortons Coaches.

[comcor]

I should have reported on my experience with Sail/Rail

I was quite impressed by it, especially with how easy the change was in Fishguard, just off the train, into the terminal building and onto the ship.

I was surprised by the numbers using it as well. There were 30-40 from the train on the ship and 60-70 foot passengers getting off the ship in Rosslare. All that on what was a relatively quiet sailing otherwise.

I wish I could say I loved the sailing too, but it was the worst crossing of the Irish Sea I've had in 20 years. Fortunately, I don't get seasick.

[Traincustomer]

Thanks for posting. Glad all went well (bar the rough crossing!).

[Traincustomer]

For the third consecutive Summer the 17.55 Rosslare Europort - Dublin Connolly is deferred.

It will operate at 18.35 daily ex Rosslare Europort from June 2 till 31 Aug (both dates inclusive).

This will offer a connection out of the 14.30 sailing ex Fishguard arriving Rosslare Europort at 18.00.

Through ticketing from Welsh/English stations to stations here was available in previous years but curiously, as yet, does not appear to be available.

In addition to the ferry connectivity the deferred departure of the last train is popular with beachgoers to Rosslare Strand.

[Jamie2k9]

Anybody know or where I can find out which rolling stock operates between Fishguard-Newport/Swansea leg?

[Mark Gleeson]

Could be anything really

Class 150, 153 and 158 have been seen down there. 22k looks amazing in comparison

[James Howard]

I wasn't very much impressed with UK rolling stock when I did the sail rail through Holyhead last year. The bulk of the journey was on a Virgin Super Voyager which looked pretty flash outside but was extremely cramped on the inside. The only advantage over the 22k was in noise but that was somewhat overcome by the idiot sat next to me yammering away on his mobile for 2 and a half hours.

Irish Rail may be miles behind on passenger amenities but in terms of general comfort the 22k is miles ahead of any of the three trains I took on that journey. If only they could roster them more effectively so that we weren't clunking down to Longford on them while passengers are crammed into 22k vestibules like sardines on the Dunboyne run.

[berneyarms]

I wasn't very much impressed with UK rolling stock when I did the sail rail through Holyhead last year. The bulk of the journey was on a Virgin Super Voyager which looked pretty flash outside but was extremely cramped on the inside. The only advantage over the 22k was in noise but that was somewhat overcome by the idiot sat next to me yammering away on his mobile for 2 and a half hours.

Irish Rail may be miles behind on passenger amenities but in terms of general comfort the 22k is miles ahead of any of the three trains I took on that journey. If only they could roster them more effectively so that we weren't clunking down to Longford on them while passengers are crammed into 22k vestibules like sardines on the Dunboyne run.

I remember that post.

The train that you took (the 09:10 Euston-Holyhead) is usually 2 5 car Voyagers all the way to Holyhead which would mean it should not be cramped - it sounded like it was only one voyager on the day you took it?

As for the guy talking loudly on his mobile - could you not take matters into your own hands and maybe ask him to tone it down? I certainly wouldn't put up with that.

[berneyarms]

Anybody know or where I can find out which rolling stock operates between Fishguard-Newport/Swansea leg?

The daytime boat train is rostered for a Class 158.

The night time boat train is rostered for a Class 150.

But, as ever with ATW, with very tight rostering, that can change.

Usually during the summer months the daytime service can be strengthened by attaching a Class 153 or even a Class 142 or Class 143 pacer!

[Jamie2k9]

Might aim for the 158, they look like the best of a bad lot!

[berneyarms]

Might aim for the 158, they look like the best of a bad lot!

There's nothing wrong with the Class 158s. One of the best regional DMUs built, and particularly the refurbished ATW sets, as they also have power sockets at each seat.

[Traincustomer]

Travelled on the daytime boat train earlier this month and it was a Class 158. Any other time though have had a Class 150 Sprinter on the daytime and the same at night.

A few years ago had a Class 153 (single unit) on the 01.50 ex Fishguard Harbour.

[Eddie]

I remember that post.

The train that you took (the 09:10 Euston-Holyhead) is usually 2 5 car Voyagers all the way to Holyhead which would mean it should not be cramped - it sounded like it was only one voyager on the day you took it?

I took it that by cramped, James meant that the seats were very close together - which they are, particularly the airline style seats if you have someone else sat next to you - not that the train was necessarily full. These trains don't have enough luggage storage either.

[berneyarms]

I took it that by cramped, James meant that the seats were very close together - which they are, particularly the airline style seats if you have someone else sat next to you - not that the train was necessarily full. These trains don't have enough luggage storage either.

If you read the original post (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=75456&postcount=10)it was a combination of the two.

But I'm struggling to believe that a 10-car voyager train would be full along the North Wales coast (the 09:10 Euston-Holyhead is usually a double voyager).

It does sound like there was only a single voyager on that leg, which is not the norm.

There is now the additional Manchester-Holyhead loco hauled train which connects with the ferries, so pressure on the other train should be reduced.

[James Howard]

It was the weekend of the August bank holiday weekend so I guess it was particularly busy. It was actually a 10-car Voyager and was completely full. Probably not the wisest choice of travel date in hindsight.

[berneyarms]

It was the weekend of the August bank holiday weekend so I guess it was particularly busy. It was actually a 10-car Voyager and was completely full. Probably not the wisest choice of travel date in hindsight.

Well that would explain it. That sort of loading would not be that common, except during the holiday periods.

There is a separate locomotive hauled service from Manchester that runs ahead of the Virgin train now, so that will reduce the pressure on the Virgin service west of Chester.

[Traincustomer]

Due to dry dock of M/V Stena Europe:

Last sailings before dry-dock at 09.00 ex Rosslare & 14.30 ex Fishguard tomorrow (Mon 15th Feb 2016).

First sailings after dry-dock 14.30 ex Fishguard and 21.15 ex Rosslare on Sunday 6th March 2016.

There is no SailRail provision on the Irish Ferries Rosslare-Pembroke Dock route though it's of course possible to purchase separate ferry and rail tickets. Bear in mind the station in Pembroke Dock is about a mile from the ferry terminal and there is no onward rail service coinciding with the 00.45 arrival (20.45 sailing ex Rosslare).

[Traincustomer]

The 17.55 Rosslare Europort - Dublin Connolly (& 17.40 Sundays) are deferred to 18.35 daily from tomorrow (Tuesday 7th June) till Saturday 3rd September 2016 inclusive.

This will offer a connection out of the 14.30 sailing ex Fishguard arriving Rosslare Europort at 18.00.

That said the connectional window is tight to the extent that Stena Line are reluctant to actively promote the onward train. If passengers with a ticket to a station beyond Rosslare miss the train Stena Line tend to end up footing the onward transport or accommodation bill as there is no Irish Rail (railway rather than port) representative for such passengers to speak to since the information desk in the terminal closed in 2009/2010.

Even at Fishguard, where there is best practice in terms of ship and rail being integrated in the one facility there is usually (except Sunday afternoons towards Ireland) around an hour between ship arrival and train departure and vice versa.

At Europort it takes around five minutes from the ship coming alongside at 18.00 till the gangway is in situ. Then approximately a further five to walk along the elevated walkway to the terminal building proper and down the escalator/ramp to the front door.Then a further seven or so to the station. Those times assume brisk walking/reasonable level of fitness. Add to that time for immigration/Gardai/security checks or if one is collecting luggage from the luggage train at the front of the terminal. Plus time to buy a rail ticket at the entrance to the platform.

Through ticketing from stations in England and Wales to stations here was available throughout summer 2013 and 2014. Last year the through ticketing only became available at a late stage. Checking earlier this afternoon it is not yet available this year.

It genuinely comes across as if some/someone in authority wants to see the connection fail. The NTA are well aware of the issue with the connection but don't seem to care.

Incidentally the line that some are keen to pedal that nobody uses the train to connect to and from the ferries at Rosslare or that such traffic has dwindled does not hold true in my experience as I've seen the continental boat arrival mid-morning throw double digit numbers of passengers onto the platform. Granted there are fluctuations and quiet times but I've also been on DARTs which have been very quiet! Equally there is regular usage of the 16.37 to connect to the port. On a journey I made in recent weeks it took two trips of the shuttle bus to convey foot passengers to the Stena Europe. It was an off peak day. (Shuttle bus was in use as foot passenger gangway was out of action. It's now repaired and foot passengers board via the walkway from the first floor waiting lounge).

Of course if it was made easy to purchase tickets to travel to Wales traffic could be grown. There are students going to Carmarthen/Swansea. There are folk going on short breaks as well as people going on business - farm purchases/shows and the like. But despite there being staff in Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey etc SailRail tickets can't be issued at these stations and the only option is to purchase over the phone (a week ahead of travel at minimum as the ticket is posted out). I think this is no fault to the good personnel of these stations but because possibly issuing SailRail tickets can only be done by certain grades of staff.

Irish Rail could bus passengers from the terminal to station at 18.25hrs but the height barrier at the station car park essentially precludes this.

Timetable Alteration for Evening Rosslare Europort to Connolly Service

31 May 2016

Customers are advised that the following timetable changes will take place from the Tuesday 7th June until Saturday 3rd September.

The 17:55hrs service from Rosslare Europort to Dublin Connolly Monday to Saturday will be deferred until 18:35hrs.

The 17:40hrs service from Rosslare Europort to Dublin Connolly on a Sunday will be deferred until 18:35hrs.

Full information is available through the journey planner above and through our timetables section.

Iarnród Éireann apologise for any inconvenience these changes may cause.


http://www.irishrail.ie/media/08_dublin-rosslare_070616-030916.pdf

[Bdeithrick]

I took the sail rail option last Friday 3/6/16
Booked on line €66 , I drive a taxi so collected my CIV ticket at the Irish ferries terminal 1 in the Port.
On Friday I took the 6am dart and got off at conolly, I walked across ss Amiens Street to the bus stop and the 53 came at 07:05. Can use leap card on this avoid the special bus at Bus Aras is €3 at 07:15
After a nice trip through east wall and the major roads of Dublin Port we arrived at Terminal 1 Irish ferries for my swift at 07:20
Swift departs at 08:45. Well in time for a scout around , check in , bag drop and a coffee n scone.
Johnny Swift took 2hrs accross the flat Irish Sea was very calm. As with all sailings I've been on its popular with the minority clans you can't discriminate against. We alighted the swift thru back ramp onto a old horrid bus to the terminal, bags collected and we were ID'ed
The Arriva train came Five minutes later I stood half was down platform and got a table seat, with charging point. It left on time at 11:27
What a beautiful trip to Chester where is was all change for London, our 13:35 was waiting, I ran and secured another table seat for our 2 hrs too Euston
We arrived nice n swift at 15:38
I took the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central and the overground to Highams Park.
This trip was 11rs but was very relaxed and no security problems with liquids and stupid walks to Ryanair gates and long walked through gift shops thinking your gong to miss the flight stress.
Kids are half price and it's a recommend route if you've time and don't want to get to London before 4pm.
Buy ticket from Irish ferries it's cheaper.
Get train times from trainline.com and screen shot it.
Hope this 2016 times n routes help. B

[Jamie2k9]

Hearing on regional radio about a new 5 or 7 times daily bus service between Rosslare Port and Wexford Town operated by Local Link Wexford and it connects with the ferries.

May well cause problems for IE summer service.

[Eddie]

Due to high airfares last weekend due to (a) late travel arrangements and (b) high demand due to the start of the UK school holidays, did my first Stena Rail and Sail last Sunday (since the HSS ceased operation) from London to Dublin, travelling out on the 8.15am. [Had tried to book the 5.15pm Swift, but the Crewe to Holyhead leg was full and therefore thetrainline.com would not let me book the journey on-line (though I'm sure I could have at a train booking office, and simply not have reserved seats).]

Pleasantly surprised by the rail element, with Virgin SuperVoyager all the way (albeit changing at Crewe).

Really feels like a backward step though having to get the slow ferry, and the worst bit is having to wait for all the vehicles to depart from the car deck before the bus comes to get you in Dublin. Foot passengers and cars never got in each others was on the HSS and could leave simultaneously.

Funny how Stena's 8.55am and 1.50pm Holyhead departures are virtually identical to the HSS's previous departure times - but with effective disembarkation times into Dublin of 12.30pm (instead of 10.30am) and 5.30pm instead of 3.30pm. 2 extra hours sailing and no connecting train either. And they are still using the HSS's lounge in Holyhead.

[berneyarms]

Due to high airfares last weekend due to (a) late travel arrangements and (b) high demand due to the start of the UK school holidays, did my first Stena Rail and Sail last Sunday (since the HSS ceased operation) from London to Dublin, travelling out on the 8.15am. [Had tried to book the 5.15pm Swift, but the Crewe to Holyhead leg was full and therefore thetrainline.com would not let me book the journey on-line (though I'm sure I could have at a train booking office, and simply not have reserved seats).]

Pleasantly surprised by the rail element, with Virgin SuperVoyager all the way (albeit changing at Crewe).

Really feels like a backward step though having to get the slow ferry, and the worst bit is having to wait for all the vehicles to depart from the car deck before the bus comes to get you in Dublin. Foot passengers and cars never got in each others was on the HSS and could leave simultaneously.

Funny how Stena's 8.55am and 1.50pm Holyhead departures are virtually identical to the HSS's previous departure times - but with effective disembarkation times into Dublin of 12.30pm (instead of 10.30am) and 5.30pm instead of 3.30pm. 2 extra hours sailing and no connecting train either. And they are still using the HSS's lounge in Holyhead.

Lesson #1 - never ever use the thetrainline.com as they charge extra.

Always use a train operator website.

[Eddie]

Lesson #1 - never ever use the thetrainline.com as they charge extra.

Always use a train operator website.
It was the first time I had used thetrainline.com for years due to exactly that reason, but they seem to have a monopoly (as far as I am aware) on the sale of non booking office UK Rail & Sail tickets. I normally buy such tickets at the booking office as I am passing through a station, but on this particular occasion, it would have cost more in transport than the £1.50 fee.

Disappointingly, my experience was that their telephone service had not got any better over the intervening period, with a long response time and transfer to what appeared to be an Indian call centre. I don't have problem with overseas call centres as long as staff have the local knowledge that you would expect an employee resident of the country they are serving has, but they rarely do.

[berneyarms]

It was the first time I had used thetrainline.com for years due to exactly that reason, but they seem to have a monopoly (as far as I am aware) on the sale of non booking office UK Rail & Sail tickets. I normally buy such tickets at the booking office as I am passing through a station, but on this particular occasion, it would have cost more in transport than the £1.50 fee.

Disappointingly, my experience was that their telephone service had not got any better over the intervening period, with a long response time and transfer to what appeared to be an Indian call centre. I don't have problem with overseas call centres as long as staff have the local knowledge that you would expect an employee resident of the country they are serving has, but they rarely do.

No - it's just that Stena Line send you there.

You can buy them directly from the Arriva Trains Wales website.