Connolly Capacity

[KSW]

capacity and accessability into connolly is a major issue!

Surely as an maynooth line passenger, you have noticed the amount of time some of the maynooth line services sit stuck between drumcondra and connolly, Its because part of the line inbound is shared with northbound services. Could you imagine if you threw heuston services in aswell!?

Just on that quote.if i was a passenger traveling from Galway to Heuston i would love the odd train terminating at Connolly City Center rather getting the luas to the city center.Even the idea of half the Cork trains going to Connolly be curious to see how many people who vote on that idea.the Phoenix park tunnel is there why not use it.The idea of trains departing Connolly for Belfast,Sligo,Wexford,Waterford,Limerick,Galway,We stport,Tralee and Cork including Drogheda/Dundalk,Maynooth,DART trains would make the station Ireland-wide from one location.

[ThomasJ]

Just on that quote.if i was a passenger traveling from Galway to Heuston i would love the odd train terminating at Connolly City Center rather getting the luas to the city center.Even the idea of half the Cork trains going to Connolly be curious to see how many people who vote on that idea.the Phoenix park tunnel is there why not use it.The idea of trains departing Connolly for Belfast,Sligo,Wexford,Waterford,Limerick,Galway,We stport,Tralee and Cork including Drogheda/Dundalk,Maynooth,DART trains would make the station Ireland-wide from one location.

Absolutely not! A major upgrade was needed on the heuston side to 4-track to provide an effective operation of these and Kildare services.

The Connolly area especially the nothern/maynooth line section of track at Connolly is crippled as it is such as the long waits northern/maynooth/darts have waiting into Connolly.

Not to mention the 8 platforms heuston has versus connollys 7!

Barring a major upgrade of the Connolly area including the station and signalling and no of tracks this is a catalyst for chaos!

[joey]

One extra platform, thats all heuston has in comparison to connolly, is that all?

I use the maynooth line a lot and yes there are delays getting into connolly sometimes and it is fustrating. They want to factor that into the next timetable maybe i don't know. But surely a 6 or 8 carriage train going to and from connolly to heuston every half an hour or even one an hour would not affect a huge deal on services in and out of connolly. Ok maybe an upgrade would be needed to facilitate this, be a lot cheaper than an underground. Lets face it when the underground is built it will be another laughing stock of the capital, need i mention port tunnel - too small for double decker lorries, luas - to small and short amount of trams. Although I think the underground maybe is a good idea linking the two sations, I think it may be a waste too, they'll probably build it and have a small 3 carraige train running to and fro. The infastructure which is pretty much there lying dormant I think it could be re-started if the will was there.

[Mark Gleeson]

The Luas gets from Connolly to Heuston faster than the current tour of Dublin you take to get from Connolly to Heuston plus you have to do a reversal at Islandbridge before getting to Heuston that would play havoc with Heuston at peak hour. Plus you are stuck with platforms 6.7.8 in Heuston unless you want to block the entire station for 5 minutes. Add in adding in some weird conflicts at Glasnevin Junction

Connolly is ridiculously congested at peak hour, there is neither the capacity or rolling stock

Best case routing some Heuston trains to Connolly/Docklands would generate 2000 journeys per peak hour (most of which would be existing users, so little net gain) These train would not serve Heuston at all

In comparison Interconnector numbers are quoting upwards of 25,000 per hour due to its route, 13 trains per hour in each direction and an order of up to 250 extra coaches to cope, its connections and its journey times. Quoting 70 million extra journeys per annum, total Irish Rail carryings in 2010 39 million. With the interconnector in place all the conflicts vanish into a free flow and you can do things like Cork Belfast if you really want to

[Inniskeen]

I wouldn't be so sure that the interconnector will deliver anything like the benefits promised. The apparent absence of turn-back facilities at the Docklands (towards Heuston) means that all tunnel services will have to travel onto the northern line. This means either a frequency of service that will effectively sterilise the northern line for anything other than DART or alternately the frequency in the tunnel will be dictated by the requirements of the northern line and the need to provide journey times that will keep the railway relevant for users travelling north of Malahide. Extending DART to Drogheda might provide a more frequent service but is unlikely to deliver an overall improvement in the service offering.

The provision of additional tracks north of East Wall is the only way of providing for both longer distance commuters, Enterprise users and DART. A double track railway can accommodate frequent stopping services or frequent fast services but not both. Irish Rail's proposals to run some 17 trains per hour per direction on the northern line means that all services will be forced to travel at the same speed - inevitably that of the slowest train.

Running mainline services off the Cork line into Connolly is a non-starter, the station simply does not have the capacity.

Running commuter services via the Phoenix Park tunnel is a different matter entirely. There are already four tracks east of Glasnevin Junction, ample capacity to handle a decent service frequency from the Heuston direction in addition to the Maynooth line. One option would be to divert all Maynooth services into the Docklands and to split the Kildare service between Docklands and Connolly. All services would serve the Drumcondra area, either at the existing station or a new one on the low level line depending on routing. The big disadvantage with this proposal, of course, is that the Docklands has limited appeal as a commuter destination although a station on the low level line at West Road could be linked to Connolly mainline & suburban by covered walkways and/or subways.

[joey]

absolutely, if the will is there it can be done. a 29k type train running to and from heuston and connolly i reckon can be done running every half hour, with little impact on northern or maynooth services. its all about convenience to the rail traveler, walk out of hueston to get the luas to connolly it is jam packed no matter what time of the day it is, its a nightmare. surely a loop could be added at hueston to allow for the easy operation in and out of a train onto platforms, plenty of space around that end. could put another platform in at connolly next to the car park surely, bags of space there.

trust me it's a runner;)

[joey]

http://www.hidden-dublin.com/images/rail/phoenix_tunnel.html

doh platform 10!!

[James Howard]

On the present infrastructure, running Maynooth trains into Docklands would be disastrous for the majority of Maynooth passengers who would want to go further south than Connolly.

The minor gain to Heuston passengers who could avoid changing train would be massively outweighed by the inconvenience suffered by the Maynooth / Longford / Sligo passengers. As it is, this line is complete saturated and it does not need to be any worse - I reckon about once a week, my evening train makes it in less than 10 minutes late.

It is also a waste of time discussing it as it is never going to happen.

[joey]

let maynooth/longford/sligo/m3 parkway run as normal to their respective station, either connolly or docklands as it is at the moment.

run a service to and from connolly and heuston only, every half hour.

simples

[ThomasJ]

let maynooth/longford/sligo/m3 parkway run as normal to their respective station, either connolly or docklands as it is at the moment.

run a service to and from connolly and heuston only, every half hour.

simples

You are missing the point!

The Connolly area doesn't have the same wealth of tracks as heuston does. Here is the dilemma.

In order to access Connolly, unless a train goes direct to platform 7 they have to access the same track as northbound darts/commuters.

Simple. If a maynooth/Longford/Sligo is entering Connolly, the northbound train has to sit and wait. Likewise if a train is heading northbound the train coming off the drumcondra line has to wait.

If you have a heuston, Connolly service arriving in the main station it has to cross three tracks therefore holding up northbound, southbound and maynooth services. Given that the signals that accompany these platforms restrict the number of services per hour to 12, a move like this is likely going to badly impact Connolly services. Not to mention the queue it could cause entering Connolly from the maynooth line

Connolly does not have the same luxury as heuston. IMHO given that there is a frequent luas and a new bus service with one more frequent bus service on the way, and given the stock issue it would be a waste of paths and resources and could badly affect the Connolly existing services.

[ThomasJ]

http://www.hidden-dublin.com/images/rail/phoenix_tunnel.html

doh platform 10!!

The last time platform 10 was used, bus transfers were needed to get to the platform from heuston it was that far away!

Oh and you can't directly access platform 10 from heuston by train

[Inniskeen]

On the present infrastructure, running Maynooth trains into Docklands would be disastrous for the majority of Maynooth passengers who would want to go further south than Connolly.

The minor gain to Heuston passengers who could avoid changing train would be massively outweighed by the inconvenience suffered by the Maynooth / Longford / Sligo passengers. As it is, this line is complete saturated and it does not need to be any worse - I reckon about once a week, my evening train makes it in less than 10 minutes late.

It is also a waste of time discussing it as it is never going to happen.

Sending Maynooth trains to the Docklands would, as you suggest, be resisted by the majority of western line users, although from an operational, capacity and service separation point of view it is very attractive. Amongst the advantages


Capacity for more frequent Maynooth line service (at least as frequent as the interconnector solution).

Elimination of current delays for Maynooth line trains approaching Connolly.


Removal of conflict between Maynooth services and DART, northern and eastern commuter services

Capacity for local services into Connolly and/or Docklands from the Kildare direction.

Utilises existing infrastructure.

Defers major expenditure on tunnel construction and electrification.

Ample space for expansion. Indeed the Docklands could potentially become a major transportation hub and receive services from the northern, sourhern and western lines. In the absence of the interconnector there would be space on the site for between ten and twelve platforms.

Additional destinations for southern line local sevices - e.g. Drumcondra and Docklands.



A possible variant on the Docklands option would be to build a Connolly East station, south of the Royal canal, close to, but at a lower level than Connolly locomotive shed. Pedestrian access to Connolly East from the existing mainline and suburban platforms could be established via existing Irish Rail lands and, depending on routing, interchange with DART would involve a relatively short walk of between 300 and 500 meters.

Another variant might be to build a much shorter version of the interconnector from Docklands to Pearse station only. The tunnel in this instance could connect to the low level Maynooth line with Kildare direction services terminating at new platforms just east of the tunnel portal. This solution would give direct interface with DART at Pearse station and deliver the vital additional cross city capacity.

[dowlingm]

A direct curve from Broombridge to the Park Tunnel parallel to Bannow Road in the area of the proposed Line D terminus (expropriation required) to move Sligo trains to Heuston P10 would open intriguing transfer options between the lines while taking 16 movements/weekday out of the Connolly-Docklands zone. Intending passengers for Sligo from the east end could join at Maynooth while a stop at Clonsilla could facilitate transfers to/from Dunboyne.

It wouldn't be cheap to construct but you could offer the residential owners the Very Best From Our National Ghost Estates. I'm sure Bachelors (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Heuston+Station+Car+Park,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.775203,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=Heuston+Station+Car+Park,&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal,+Ireland&ll=53.36871,-6.289973&spn=0,0.043945&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.368842,-6.290028&panoid=jSILHCkmfnq53klNgeQUuQ&cbp=12,98.25,,0,-5.33) could be found somewhere too.

[Mark Gleeson]

That was looked into by Arup, it didn't rank well

[dowlingm]

thanks Mark - is that report available from transport.ie?

[ThomasJ]

Sending Maynooth trains to the Docklands would, as you suggest, be resisted by the majority of western line users, although from an operational, capacity and service separation point of view it is very attractive. Amongst the advantages


Capacity for more frequent Maynooth line service (at least as frequent as the interconnector solution).

Elimination of current delays for Maynooth line trains approaching Connolly.


Removal of conflict between Maynooth services and DART, northern and eastern commuter services

Capacity for local services into Connolly and/or Docklands from the Kildare direction.

Utilises existing infrastructure.

Defers major expenditure on tunnel construction and electrification.

Ample space for expansion. Indeed the Docklands could potentially become a major transportation hub and receive services from the northern, sourhern and western lines. In the absence of the interconnector there would be space on the site for between ten and twelve platforms.

Additional destinations for southern line local sevices - e.g. Drumcondra and Docklands.



A possible variant on the Docklands option would be to build a Connolly East station, south of the Royal canal, close to, but at a lower level than Connolly locomotive shed. Pedestrian access to Connolly East from the existing mainline and suburban platforms could be established via existing Irish Rail lands and, depending on routing, interchange with DART would involve a relatively short walk of between 300 and 500 meters.

Another variant might be to build a much shorter version of the interconnector from Docklands to Pearse station only. The tunnel in this instance could connect to the low level Maynooth line with Kildare direction services terminating at new platforms just east of the tunnel portal. This solution would give direct interface with DART at Pearse station and deliver the vital additional cross city capacity.

With all due respect inniskeen, all you have done is suggested putting another plaster on a badly damaged rail network!

A few things:
- you have said sending maynooth services to docklands would solve the northbound bottleneck problem but you have said you would send Kildare trains into Connolly that wouldn't resolve it!
- if maynooth trains are diverted to docklands, how do maynooth line passengers get to drumcondra? That is a major station
- your suggestion is a major risk to a successful maynooth line, there is a risk if it moves to docklands people will stop using the service
- it would take longer to go by train from heuston to Connolly than it would by luas.

The rail system in this city is in bad need of an overhaul and the interconnector would be a major help, we have waited too long on it!

[Inniskeen]

With all due respect inniskeen, all you have done is suggested putting another plaster on a badly damaged rail network!

A few things:
- you have said sending maynooth services to docklands would solve the northbound bottleneck problem but you have said you would send Kildare trains into Connolly that wouldn't resolve it!
- if maynooth trains are diverted to docklands, how do maynooth line passengers get to drumcondra? That is a major station
- your suggestion is a major risk to a successful maynooth line, there is a risk if it moves to docklands people will stop using the service
- it would take longer to go by train from heuston to Connolly than it would by luas.

The rail system in this city is in bad need of an overhaul and the interconnector would be a major help, we have waited too long on it!

ThomasJ - my response to the points you raise is as follows


I am not suggesting sending Maynooth services to Docklands solves the northern bottleneck. Neither will the DART interconnector - the only real solution to capacity constraints on the northern line is the provision of additional tracks. Otherwise the northern line will remain a mess with DART, commuter and Enterprise services all operating way below potential with consequent loss of market share and relevance.

You are absolutely right about Drumcondra, it is a huge station on the Maynooth line, probably between 10% and 20% of the business. There would have to be a station on the lower level (Docklands line) line, probably somewhere between Binns's Bridge and Croke Park.

Yes diverting Maynooth services to the Docklands without onward transport to the south city is a problem, hence the suggestion of a much more modest connecting tunnel from Docklands to Pearse/Merrion Square.

As for Kildare services operating to Connolly, this is possible without interfering with Maynooth/Docklands, Northern line/Eastern line services as each of these would have independent inbound and outbound lines. To maintain service separation Kildare/Connolly frequency would be limited as all trains would have to operate to platform 7 at Connolly with inbound and outbound services sharing the same line between Croke Park and Connolly. This pattern of operation also avoids conflict at Glasnevin Junction, although there would be potential contention between Kildare/Docklands & Kildare/Connolly services at North Strand. Operationally it would be preferable to run all Kildare local services to the Docklands connecting there with a high intensity Maynooth to Pearse service.

The Luas journey time from Heuston to Abbey Street takes about 9 minutes, the train from Heuston to Connolly/Docklands would take 10 to 12 minutes. The Luas journey time does not take into account walking time to the Heuston Luas stop and waiting time - total at least 4 minutes and more typically close to an average of 6 minutes. Hence Luas journey time to Abbey Street is realistically between 13 and 15 minutes.

[Colm Moore]

thanks Mark - is that report available from transport.ie?

http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Environmental_Impact_Statement-EIS_and_Environmental_Impact_Statement_Non-Technical_Summary-NTS/Volume_4%E2%80%93EIS_Appendices/02_Background/A2.1.pdf

[Kilocharlie]

Couple of points:

Where do people actually want to go? Almost certainly not Connolly itself but somewhere in the city centre. While Heuston-Abbey takes 9mins + waiting time, equally Connolly-Abbey takes a similar time given the distance between P7 and the Luas stop. No real advantage if City Centre is your destination but maybe if IFSC is.
With the current track layout, it is impossible for a Kildare train to reach Docklands or for a Dromcondra train also to reach Docklands.
The Interconnector is much more than a link between Heuston-Docklands; it opens up the City Centre to high capacity DART service that links with several other lines - Luas red/green, Metro N, Maynooth-Bray DART etc. Routing Kildare trains to Connolly/Docklands will not add any capacity throught the city centre.
To be efficient, Kildare trains would not stop at Heuston main but maybe at P10 which is not exactly conviently located. The present Heuston based users would be seriously inconvienced and could lead to a move away from rail.
Additional rolling stock would be needed to maintain the current capacity. There are 2 sets providing the Kildare/Newbridge local service; at least 3 would be needed if the route was extended to Connolly just to maintain current approx hourly schedule. In the current climate, cost increasing measures are unlikely to succeed. In fact even more stock might be needed to provide replacement services from Heuston as using P10 is not a runner.
With the Interconnector, Malahide/Howth DART will not pass through Connolly but via the Interconnector. This will provide a hugh increase in capacity for Northern/Maynooth sevices.

[Inniskeen]

Couple of points:

Where do people actually want to go? Almost certainly not Connolly itself but somewhere in the city centre. While Heuston-Abbey takes 9mins + waiting time, equally Connolly-Abbey takes a similar time given the distance between P7 and the Luas stop. No real advantage if City Centre is your destination but maybe if IFSC is.
With the current track layout, it is impossible for a Kildare train to reach Docklands or for a Dromcondra train also to reach Docklands.
The Interconnector is much more than a link between Heuston-Docklands; it opens up the City Centre to high capacity DART service that links with several other lines - Luas red/green, Metro N, Maynooth-Bray DART etc. Routing Kildare trains to Connolly/Docklands will not add any capacity throught the city centre.
To be efficient, Kildare trains would not stop at Heuston main but maybe at P10 which is not exactly conviently located. The present Heuston based users would be seriously inconvienced and could lead to a move away from rail.
Additional rolling stock would be needed to maintain the current capacity. There are 2 sets providing the Kildare/Newbridge local service; at least 3 would be needed if the route was extended to Connolly just to maintain current approx hourly schedule. In the current climate, cost increasing measures are unlikely to succeed. In fact even more stock might be needed to provide replacement services from Heuston as using P10 is not a runner.
With the Interconnector, Malahide/Howth DART will not pass through Connolly but via the Interconnector. This will provide a hugh increase in capacity for Northern/Maynooth sevices.


A few more points


You are correct about Connolly which although attractive for the IFSC (as is Docklands), most commuters are heading for south city destinations with significant flows to Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Dock, Lansdowne Road, Sydney Parade, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire.

You say, the interconnector will provide two high capacity DART lines through the city centre. While there may be plenty of room in the tunnel and between Inchicore and Hazelhatch for such a service the DART frequency suggested by Irish Rail will sterilise the northern line for anything other than DART. If this happens, longer distance services will become uncompetive and largley irrelevant in much the same manner as the DSE service beyond Greystones.

You are correct in saying that Kildare trains can not currently access Docklands. The track re-configuration required to establish such access would be trivial, especially if additional platforms were provided just east of the existing Docklands platforms.

Accessing Docklands from the existing Drumcondra station is addressed by the previous point.

Providing access to Drumcondra for Maynooth/Docklands services would require an additional station in Drumcondra on the low level line as per previous post. Irish Rail had such a proposal some years ago.

Kildare/Docklands service would most probably call at the currently idle platform 10 at Heuston. An additional platform would be required for inbound trains towards Docklands. Access to this part of Heuston is very poor for pedestrians although direct access to John's Road and perhaps Conyngham Road might partially address this issue. A Luas spur and /or relocated bus terminal might be another possibility.

A Kildare/Docklands service would certainly require an extra set and associated additional costs. Any service expansion including the interconnector will result in increased operating costs.

I may be wrong, but it does not appear likely that the DART interconnector will proceed in the near future due to a combination of costs and reduced demand. Indeed the usage of the ultra high capacity KRP stations, east of Hazelhatch, is currently extrordinarily modest and must raise some concerns as to the viability of the current interconnector proposals. Re-configuration and increased use of existing under utilised assets may well prove to be an attractive and perhaps worthwhile option in the medium term.

[ThomasJ]

Thanks for those answers inniskeen!

A few things:
- for a station with just 2 platforms (1 never used) you are asking alot of docklands (maynooth, m3 parkway, Longford, Kildare and in the future navan)
- we are talking some major work of glasnevin junction and drumcondra
- you say Kildare trains will only take ten minutes but you need to take into account the waits at clonliffe road

In my opinion the best thing would be to send all maynooth trains inbound and outbound, through platform 7, connect drumcondra with docklands through acquiring and developing the patch of land at docklands currently not in cie hands, in fact by doing this you would probably give access from the northside to docklands.

I still maintain the interconnector is the only show in town, it links rail to rail, rail to luas etc. Although you mention northern line quad tracking if that happens DART to airport is very much back on the table

[Inniskeen]

Thomas,

There is more than ample space in the Docklands for additional platforms. In the absence of an interconnector anything up to 12 8-car platforms could be accommodated on existing railway owned land. Obviously if the site is partially occupied by a tunnel portal, the number of additional platforms would be limited, although there still should be room for between 4 and 6 additional surface platforms.

The configuration of services which I am proposing involves no track changes at Glasnevin Junction. In fact the junction points would only operate in exceptional circumstances. Kildare trains would run via the high level line to either Connolly or Docklands, Maynooth trains would run via the low level line to Docklands. Delays at Clonliffe Road or North Strand need not be an issue as the proposed service pattern would produce significantly fewer conflicting movements. Indeed if all Kildare local services ran to Docklands, there would be almost no potential for conflicting movements.

As before a station at Drumcondra would need to be provided on the low level line.

[Thomas J Stamp]

How is any of this remotely on topic?

Can we stick to reality please, insofar as the topic is the proposed timetable changes in Connolly this year.

All of the above has been debated to death in the past. Search out the relevent thread and add to it, thanks.