The Heuston Factor

[Derek Wheeler]

This particular issue stems from a discussion in the members section regarding integrated ticketing. I thought it might be interesting to throw it out to the general public for discussion/opinion etc. Its a well known one.

When travelling by train to or from Heuston station, Dublin, ticket prices are different, depending on whether you want to take a bus or Luas. If you begin your journey in Dublin city centre you cannot buy a through Luas/bus/rail ticket. You must first buy your connecting service ticket and then purchase your rail ticket in Heuston. If you are travelling to Heuston by rail from any other destination, there are 2 different ticket prices.

1. To Heuston station only

and

2. To the "city centre" using Bus or Luas.

There are a number of issues connected to this situation. Doesn't it seem unfair that CIE for many many years have applied 2 charges to rail passengers arriving into Heuston station.(they did it even before IE was set up as a seperate entity. Real criminality.) Its almost like an admission that Heuston is not quite the final destination. Obviously its remote, but thats not the fault of passengers. So why should they be subjected to different fare scales. You can of course purchase the "through ticket" from all stations that operate services to Heuston. But it may not be highlighted to you at the time of purchase and the prices are different. Hence the many passengers who fumble for change to pay for the bus or luas.

While we wait for integrated ticketing, isnt it about time that we put an end to this rediculous scenario. For a start, all fares from destinations serving Heuston should be fixed at one cost that automatically includes the transfer to the city centre and return. No more "Dick Turpin" performances from the genius that emanates from IE/CIE head offices. Heuston station is the stop for Dublin, not "near" Dublin. This "cosy" earner for CIE has now been inherited by luas and compounded by the luas TVM's inability to offer a combined luas and rail ticket. The city centre-Heuston route is an established combined mode transport option used by 1000s daily, yet there appears to be a 2 tiered fare structure that continues to "isolate" Heuston and copperfasten a mentality that goes back to 1847!

"Please note"

No descriptions of combined monthly tickets, obscure codes in IE ticket machines that permit through journies (that the staff don't even know about) or any other hardly known mechanism that facilitates what Im proposing. This thread is for the ordinary user who hasn't a clue and based on the obvious daily rip off that the "Heuston Factor" causes. We'll move to Cork after this.

[luasifer]

This is a complete farce of a situation. I asked for a day return ticket to Grand Canal Dock from Newbridge the other day and was told it was 18 euro. I know in fact it is 15 euro which is the same as the city centre return. The ticket guy in Newbridge laughed when I suggested this. Even the 15 + 2.45 for Dart return is less than 18 so what is going on with this crowd.

Why cant the TVMs issue tickets to other destinations in the Greater Dublin Area besides those on the Kildare line? Why dont they use the map format like luas do? Why cant we get weekly tickets to the city centre or Dart destinations from these machines? What is the point of these machines if they dont even provide the most common ticket (weekly to city centre)?? They have done nothing to reduce the queues!

IE are a complete joke

[Mark Gleeson]

We have received a verbal agreement (given in front of 150+ people) that Luas through ticketing would be implemented, in fact before I mentioned this to the manager in charge in October 2005 he was unaware that it was missing from the system

Now if I'm in Howth and ask for a single to Heuston the clerk will issue it no questions or funny business and it works out 40 cent cheaper, that works. Now the opposite won't the RPA won't issue Heuston Howth we have asked them and they had a list of excuses each of which where false obstructions they plain just don't want to implement it. If I'm at any IE station served from Heuston and ask for a ticket to any other intercity destination even with Connolly in the middle it works, no questions no funny business, if you ask for Dublin City Centre it works the only time you hit a problem is when you ask for a suburban station in Dublin since that station is not listed on the intercity manual and requires a few seconds to find but in some cases owing to abnormality in IE's pricing structure you are best off getting two tickets and some staff have been instructed not to issue them at the time we thought that weird until we found out why the staff don't know why though

Given the multitude of combinations its very hard to track down the glitches we know of a few it just expensive to prove it and yes you have found a glitch at Grand Canal Dock the fare should not exceed €17.45, €15 is not correct since that only gets you as far as Connolly (€13 + €2 for Luas) most of the glitches do not effect through Luas journeys most are purely Connolly based. There are two fares between Newbridge and Grand Canal Dock, one valid on the Luas and one which is not make sure you have the right one http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/ticketing.php#luas_valid

The map idea doesn't scale up but there is already a basic zonal structure in place in the official commuter area

So we have a situation where IE can issue a ticket to any Luas Red line central zone destination (yes it works from Connolly as well) but the RPA wont do the opposite. I blame the RPA for a lot of this since implementing this at a cost of simply rewriting the Luas ticket machines software (IE's machines wont need a rewrite just add the stations) would be tiny compared to the integrated ticketing project they have well and truly screwed up

[Derek Wheeler]

"Please note"

No descriptions of combined monthly tickets, obscure codes in IE ticket machines that permit through journies (that the staff don't even know about) or any other hardly known mechanism that facilitates what Im proposing. This thread is for the ordinary user who hasn't a clue and based on the obvious daily rip off that the "Heuston Factor" causes. We'll move to Cork after this.


Its getting off topic. Im talking about the 2 tiered system that operates to and from Heuston, not the broader issue of ticket rip offs. You must pay additional money to get to and from Heuston. Heuston is the main intercity station for Dublin, yet when CIE had a total monopoly, they milked it by adding an additional charge to complete the last leg of the journey. (same in reverse direction. In 1989 NIR started a bus service between York st station and Central station. It was free. The standard rail fare to and from Heuston should automatically include the "city centre" part.

[luasifer]

Mark,

I am correct about the 15 euro. I have gotten return tickets to Lansdowne Road, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock many times in the past and this is the price. I presume this is because these are classed as city centre stations.

I have also inversely gotten single tickets from Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge and it has cost 12 euro which is the correct fare from Newbridge to the city centre.

Also a family member of mine commutes to Clontarf Road and the day return price is 15 euro, in fact it is the same for Killester and Harmonstown. How IE find it difficult to integrate and have a consistent fare structure on such a small system is beyond me.

Coming back to Derek's point. Am I right in saying that Enterprise passengers get a free Dart transfer to Tara Street and Pearse??

If this is the case then surely Heuston passengers should be accomodated in a similar way.

If we look at Paris for example, which to me has one of the finest transport systems in the world. If you get an RER ticket to Paris from one of the suburbs you are entitled to travel to any station in zone 1, which actually includes nearly the whole metro system.

Our ticket and fare structure is so outdated it is embarrassing. It is also unfair to some areas by being unfairly expensive and too cheap to others

[Mark Gleeson]

I don't doubt it exists my question is does the ticket contain the correct printed valid on Luas string

We have examples of tickets bought Kildare line which if a Luas revenue inspector found you traveling on would result in a penalty fare being applied since they are not Luas valid. I travel on a monthly ticket valid on the 90/91/92 which isn't Luas valid

(Edit: I travel on Luas on a smartcard not on my IE ticket)

This one for example is not Luas valid. I can produce a Seapoint Hazelhatch one as well and I know Clontraf Rd Hazelhatch results in the same non Luas valid behaviour
311

In reality the fare Belfast Pearse is the same as Belfast Connolly so it doesn't really matter

The root problem is that fixing this is easy problem is that DB and Connex are seriously out of pocket is it is implemented and that explains exactly why things are the way they are. The RPA don't want to know about IE to Luas ticketing they where suprised when we told the story that IE where going to implement it. Best we can hope for is that the current fare be actually available not hidden. Ile de France section of SNCF and RATP are subsidised to the order of 50+% while Dublin Bus might get 10% thats the real problem every operator is guarding there revenue since a through ticket results in more red tape and less cash

I've argued the merits of a central zone before (http://forum.platform11.org/showthread.php?t=224&highlight=Central+Zone) but we won't be seeing that until the DTA gets its cheque book out

What about a whole city, all transport approach ?
What we need is a city wide zonal system for all transport modes

Heuston to Point, Canal to Canal, to Broadstone should be the central zone, one core area. play clever and you could incorporate all rail services (Grand Canal Dock, Heuston, Drumcondra, Spencer Dock,) as well as all buses within the canals

[luasifer]

I am fairly certain that it exists and is valid on the luas. I am going to experiment with this next week even though it will put me out of pocket.

We are 100% in agreement on the need for zones to be set up that apply to luas and IE. Its a ridiculous situation currently.

IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly

[Oisin88]

Why not a free central zone to get the city moving?

Bus Átha Cliath have some sort of a shoppers fare from Henry to Grafton street. Maybe it could be stretched to the zone above. That might get more votes than universal free travel for the generation that own us all.

Perth (Western Australia) have 2 free city centre loop buses. That would be another idea.

[Mark Gleeson]

The ticket will have IFB, IFS, LUAS on it if it doesn't its not Luas valid, its important to be sure since it can be hit and miss. Without knowing that its hard to judge

Where it gets confusing is there are 2 sets of fare zones one for intercity and one suburban

We are 100% in agreement on the need for zones to be set up that apply to luas and IE. Its a ridiculous situation currently.Its a no brainer but try selling it to the RPA? The equilvent in Belfast before 1995 was actually operated under contract for NIR given Cullen that won't happen in Dublin

IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly

There is a city centre station on the ticketing matrix, Pearse Tara and Connolly are grouped as one but in the absence of a physical zone on a map its ambiguous and confusing. If you live southside and ask for Pearse the ticket 99.9% of the time is issued to Connolly I assume the northside gets the same deal

The root of the issue is DB and RPA have to get money out of it, solution is very simple all the ills integrated ticketing the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green

[Derek Wheeler]

IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly

At last. Thank you Luasifer. The Heuston situation is 19th century bull. In 1847, you paid a jarvey for the run to and from. That was fair enough, because the railway company were only obliged to pick you up or drop you off at "Kingsbridge" (Heuston) But, when nationalisation of the system came about under CIE, both modes of bus and train came under one banner, but the fare at Heuston was still subject to an addition for the city centre stretch. It beggars belief. To this day, you are charged twice (be it seperate or combined) to get from Westport, Ballina,Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork, Waterford and all intermediate stations (phew!) to Dublin city centre! You also pay twice, if your journey commences in Dublin city centre. This is, perhaps, the oldest rip off anomaly on our railway system. And we havent even discussed Cork yet!

By the way, the RPA/Luas situation is only relevent to this topic in the context of fare charges and not the integration of tickets. IE/CIE are still the ones responsible for providing the facility that allows you to buy a through ticket on the 90 bus to all Heuston served destinations and incoming journies.(at a fixed price) It could've been done donkeys years ago. Absolutely no excuses. The situation in relation to Heuston station is a joke, created by CIE management before most of us were born. Furthermore, whats the point of having a go at the RPA for failing to offer all Heuston rail journies through their TVMs, when all IE have done is offer one Luas journey through their ticketing system. Like with like please.

[Oisin88]

the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green
Even simpler, the circle the victorians gave us: the canals/ North Circular Road.

[Derek Wheeler]

The root of the issue is DB and RPA have to get money out of it, solution is very simple all the ills integrated ticketing the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green

Leave the RPA out of it for the moment and try to remember the old days that were CIE. (and remember that IE is still the same bunch of CIE heads with a different name and puppet board.) Try very hard to leave the integrated ticketing issue aside aswell. What this thread is about is the issue at Heuston and the very very very very simple fact that it costs additional money to make the connection to or from the "city centre". This basic anomaly is the starting point and so far, Ive read posts from Mark talking all kinds of things, but not addressing the core issue of this thread, which is what is the thinking behind CIE/IEs persistance in charging "twice" in relation to Heuston?

[Colm Donoghue]

Derek, I presume you'ld expect Bus Eireann to take you from Cork train station to pana?
Drogheda train station to Drogheda,
Rathdrum to Rathdrum etc.

Where do you draw the line?

In Paris, you have to buy a metro ticket if you arrive by Train...

[Thomas J Stamp]

I think what Derek's point is is this:

When the GSWR built the line to Heuston you would get a ticvket to their terminus. Then you would have to get some other way of getting into the city centre. When CIE took over both the railway and the buses this situation should have been changed, as you were infact paying the same company twice.

Today I can get a ticket from Templemore witgh the option of getting the LUAS or no 90 bus on the same ticket. Now, what happens to the small extra charge I pay in Templemore? They dont know if I take the bus, the LUAS or deicde its alovely day so I'll walk. Who gets that money? And, more to the piont, why should I pay CIE twice to get into the city centre? And forget any pedantic stuff oh they're seperate companies, they are owned by CIE.

Also, it appears that when I pay the additional charge it is actually cheaper than the reutrn ticket for LUAS and two singles on the 90. How does that work?

[luasifer]

I say draw the line at Dublin Suburban stations. So if you buy a ticket from Kildare to Dublin it is valid to zone 1. Intercity is acceptable to pay the 1euro add on.

In Paris the RER is the suburban train network. You do not need to buy a seperate metro ticket on this. A ticket to Paris on the RER is valid to any metro station in zone 1.

[Mark Gleeson]

And thats the way it will become under the integrated ticketing project

Same goes in London, tickets are marked LONDON BRIT RAIL and are not valid underground unless a change is involved just like Dublin

[Philly]

Not everybody does purchase the "city centre add-on" when going to Dublin, so I think it is fair that there is a choice. It's a shame that you can't by train/LUAS tickets from LUAS stops. It is surely not too complicated to add such a ticket to the LUAS ticketing system.

[Mark]

I read an article recently that DB (Germany) are planning in implimenting on their intercity tickets an hour of travel on tram/metro services etc from the main station upon which you arrive. Clever idea I thought.

Derek I think it all stems back to the fare structure. I personally wouldnt expect to have my Tralee to Heuston ticket to include a connection unless I asked for it.

I zonal or time limited fare structure would solve many of these problems. The idea of particular destinations rather than zones is just confusing.

However I think the idea of an hour traval on all modes add-on type facility on request would be very popular if advertised well. Need not be just Heuston either.

[philip]

I read an article recently that DB (Germany) are planning in implimenting on their intercity tickets an hour of travel on tram/metro services etc from the main station upon which you arrive. Clever idea I thought.
It is clever and it's already in use. It's called 'city-ticket' but you must have a Bahncard to use it. A Bahncard is a card that costs x per year and then all tickets purchased with it have 25%, 50% or 100% knocked off depending on whether you have the Bahncard25, Bahncard50 or Bahncard100 respectively. AFAIK a regular non-Bahncard user (very few regular users wouldn't have at least invested in a Bahncard25 or 50 which are about €100-€200 per year, the 100 costs about €2,000 however!) cannot avail of city-ticket.

[ccos]

If I arrive in any Dutch city by rail I must buy a seperate ticket to use the metro/tram/bus system.
the same is true in Brussels, Luxembourg and a few German Cities I've been to.
I don't see the problem???????

[Mark]

However the dutch still use the strippenkard in all cities dont they? Outdated but very flexible.

[ccos]

Yes they do and its a very good system, but you can't use it on the trains nor train tickets on the bus.

[luasifer]

ccos, we are really considering the suburban area when we talk of this add on. We are considering say Kildare or somewhere as the extremity for example. Intercity would be different and you would have the add on as an option.

Take for example Kildare and Drogheda. These might both be in zone 6 for example. But in order for the Kildare passenger to get to the city centre they have to pay this "add on" fee whereas the Drogheda passenger wouldnt. So if the destination was "zone 1" as opposed to "Connolly" then it would be fairer.

[al2637]

Strippenkaart is on it's way out.. to be replaced by smartcards... god help us.

ccos, it's true that the InterCity and individual cities metro/bus/boat/tram (a single ticket does you for all modes!) systems are different, and you can't use the strippenkaart, but you can buy monthly/yearly InterCity tickets which include 'local transport' in the cities you are travelling between.

I've never really found it a problem tho, mainly because I don't commute on the InterCity network.

[ccos]

Strippenkaart is on it's way out.. to be replaced by smartcards... god help us.

I'm not looking forward to it either.

Its not just intercity its all rail services, I travel between Haarlem, Amsterdam an Schipol a lot by rail (stoptrains, sneltrains and IC's) and on arrival I must buy another ticket to continue my journey by bus etc. This seems to be true in most other countrys I've lived, worked or visited. The fact that you can get a LUAS or 90bus add on to your train ticket is someting thats not so widespread anywhere else.
The biggest problem with tickets in Ireland is DB and their ridiculous stage system but I thought P11 was a railusers lobby group.

[Philly]

http://www.rpa.ie/its

"RPA has been given the responsibility to implemen an integrated ticketing system between the different providers of public transport. This section will provide details of our progress towards achieving a National Integrated Ticketing System."

Awaiting details... :rolleyes:

[Mark]

I'm not looking forward to it either.

Its not just intercity its all rail services, I travel between Haarlem, Amsterdam an Schipol a lot by rail (stoptrains, sneltrains and IC's) and on arrival I must buy another ticket to continue my journey by bus etc. This seems to be true in most other countrys I've lived, worked or visited. The fact that you can get a LUAS or 90bus add on to your train ticket is someting thats not so widespread anywhere else.
The biggest problem with tickets in Ireland is DB and their ridiculous stage system but I thought P11 was a railusers lobby group.

I used to use the strippenkaart quite regularly in Rotterdam and when I would travel around the rest of the nederlands I could use the same ticket. What I was trying to use the Dutch example for was the fact that there is an all-Netherlands zonal system.

[ccos]

I don't understand why a simple system like the strippenkart isn't in place already for the Bus & LUAS whats going to happen when the metro arrives a new ticket system??? I remember using a similar system in Copenhagen years ago except it was "knips" instead of strips.

[Mark]

It'll be the same system as Luas aka the RPA system. Some zones etc.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

It is a olde-timey throwback alright and goes back even further than CIE. The GSR was pulling the same stunt with the DUTC trams at Hueston back when Queen Victoria was still in her child bearing years, and even when both companies merged to form CIE the practice contiuned. One of the reasons CIE was formed was to do away with this stuff and they only made it worse.

CIE is still filled with loads of old victorian leftover culture like this. This is the reason why I'll always maintain that CIE/IE cannot be reformed ever. There is too much entrenced cultural baggage from the past.

The "CIE" in the CIE never stood for "Change, Innovation and Efficency".

[James Shields]

"RPA has been given the responsibility to implemen an integrated ticketing system between the different providers of public transport. This section will provide details of our progress towards achieving a National Integrated Ticketing System."

Note the emphasis is still on "integrated ticketing" not "integrated fares" or a common zone system.

[Derek Wheeler]

Not everybody does purchase the "city centre add-on" when going to Dublin, so I think it is fair that there is a choice.

There's no need for a choice. The standard rail fare should include additional transfer to the "city centre" because Heuston is remote. It was remote over 150 years ago and its still remote.

If I arrive in any Dutch city by rail I must buy a seperate ticket to use the metro/tram/bus system.
the same is true in Brussels, Luxembourg and a few German Cities I've been to.
I don't see the problem???????


Thats not a like with like comparison to the point Im making in relation to Heuston. Heuston (in terms of rail termini) is in a poor location for city centre penetration. The onward connection is unavoidable and once again should be automatically included in standard rail fares. Obviously, if you wish to travel beyond the city centre area additional fares apply for whatever form of public transport you wish to use.

Derek I think it all stems back to the fare structure. I personally wouldnt expect to have my Tralee to Heuston ticket to include a connection unless I asked for it.

Heuston is Dublin right? Its the main inter city terminus for the city. Its also a growing commuter terminus for the city. Shouldn't people expect that a standard rail ticket actually entitles them to a journey that delivers them to the city. In my opinion, the operation of "add-ons" is unecessary and a very basic anomally that borders on rip-off.

Heuston is in an infamously remote location and I don't accept that passengers should be expected to pay anymore in order to reach the central business and shopping districts of the city. CIE had the chance to negate this issue, but they chose to use it as a method of generating more income.

Finally. Please keep thread on topic. The core issue here is not integrated ticketing. Its a fares issue.

[Colm Donoghue]

Derek,
I agree that Heuston is in the back of beyond for most people and commuters especially. But I'd like you to at least consider that transfers would be an improvement in service that costs money, unlike a free improvement in service that requires an attitude change.

Who do you think should fund the cost of the transfer to the city centre?
Should there be a reduction for people who don't want to go to the city centre?

How should the transfer to the city centre be done ( i.e. tram, dublin bus, some other bus)?

Where is the city centre? Where would you like people to be transferred to free of charge with their train ticket? Henry st is the prime shopping location, around St Stephen's Green is the prime business location. Where do you see the transfer to?

[ccos]

Quote:
If I arrive in any Dutch city by rail I must buy a seperate ticket to use the metro/tram/bus system.
the same is true in Brussels, Luxembourg and a few German Cities I've been to.
I don't see the problem???????



Thats not a like with like comparison to the point Im making in relation to Heuston. Heuston (in terms of rail termini) is in a poor location for city centre penetration. The onward connection is unavoidable and once again should be automatically included in standard rail fares. Obviously, if you wish to travel beyond the city centre area additional fares apply for whatever form of public transport you wish to use

You haven't walked from the Gare to the City Centre in Luxembourg then? You should try Brugge or Leige in Belguim out as well.

[Mark]

Essentially then a trip from say Cork to Heuston should be a trip from Cork to the Dublin Central zone (ie the fares zone) and that your ticket should entitle you to continuing your trip within the central zone?

It would only require CIE companies to jump on the zonal bandwagon then..

[Colm Donoghue]

It would only require CIE companies to jump on the zonal bandwagon then..
And that bin company that runs the tram service too...

[Donal Quinn]

I was talking to a friend last night about the whole heuston transfer thing and the lack of integrated ticketing and zones etc

as i understand it IE get less subvention than other european operators ~10% as compared to up to 50% for others

this means that IE are much more sensitive to any fluctuation in income such as would follow in the aftermath of either not charging for heuston-city centre transfer or implementing a proper zonal integrating ticket thingy. this isn't necessarily a permanent drop and also IE would make savings from having more people using prepaid tickets cos that's more efficient than cash

so as with everthing in this country maybe the pressure needs to focus on the Dept of Finance to give IE the leeway neccessary to still be able to function with the reduced income. DoF is legendry though for its rectal fistitude - AHEM I mean fiscal rectitude, of course :eek:

[Derek Wheeler]

Derek,
I agree that Heuston is in the back of beyond for most people and commuters especially. But I'd like you to at least consider that transfers would be an improvement in service that costs money, unlike a free improvement in service that requires an attitude change.

For over 40 years Colm (1945 - 1987) CIE had total and absolute control of both bus and rail in Dublin. It could have and should have been done then. It was the one set of accounts. We've had loads of time for an attitude change. But you must remember that CIE didn't run the network on that basis. They actually followed the models of two completely seperate entities...GSR and the DUTC. After failing for 40 years, the Government divided the group into four parts and that has compounded the problem and returned us to a competing scenario that still offers little benefit to the customer. The proposed break up of CIE met with the usual fits of rage and regardless of that, it would be meaningless, with a DTA and integrated ticketing on a national level.

[Derek Wheeler]

You haven't walked from the Gare to the City Centre in Luxembourg then? You should try Brugge or Leige in Belguim out as well.

Just because its similar in those locations, that doesn't make it right. While P11 has always promoted "best international practise", personally, I don't swear by the ethos that, "If its done that way in this European country, it must be okay."

Unless we know public opinion in your quoted locations, they're irrelevent and still open to question, in an Irish context.

Comparisons are useful, but not particularly helpful to a specific issue in a specific area.

I think we may agree to differ on the Heuston question.

[James Shields]

I can see an argument for both sides on this one.

If I travel to the UK and want to get a train to central London, the default ticket only takes me to one of the London IC stations (there are quite a few). However, it generally only costs a pound or two to get a travelcard added on, which gives access to London commuter trains, Tubes, Busses, Trams and the DLR.

I would be quite happy to see a similar arrangement, where an Intercity takes you to the terminating station of the route (let's not forget, Connolly is not exactly city centre either), but for a nominal amount extra you get access to DART, Luas and busses. This would be particularly relevant once the Interconnector is in place.

This really boils down to the old issue that we need a common zone and fare system, though.

[Oisin88]

I've just been to Madrid for the weekend. We landed in their new Terminal 4. Before we got to baggage reclaim there was a monorail trip, something a bit like the ones in Birmingham Airport and Stansted, but underground.

Now, looking at the google maps for Madrid airport here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=madrid,+spain&ie=UTF8&z=14&ll=40.490761,-3.591585&spn=0.031397,0.10849&t=h&om=1) and the quays here (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&om=1&z=14&ll=53.342251,-6.264782&spn=0.024648,0.080509&t=h) it looks like about the same distance from Heuston to O'Connell bridge.

What about just sticking in a figure 8 underground monorail linking Heuston with key City Centre places with a 3-4 minute frequency and just loads of standing room? If an aiport can do it as an ad on (at a time when Iberia is giving less and less leg-room trans atlantic) could they not scrape the money from somewhere?

[luasifer]

Quote "Given the multitude of combinations its very hard to track down the glitches we know of a few it just expensive to prove it and yes you have found a glitch at Grand Canal Dock the fare should not exceed €17.45, €15 is not correct since that only gets you as far as Connolly (€13 + €2 for Luas) most of the glitches do not effect through Luas journeys most are purely Connolly based. There are two fares between Newbridge and Grand Canal Dock, one valid on the Luas and one which is not make sure you have the right one http://www.platform11.org/passenger_...php#luas_valid"

I have this weekend travelled from Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge. I only purchased a single ticket as I did not need a return. This was 12 euro which is exactly as I expected. Essentially it's the 11euro fare from Newbridge to Dublin + 1 euro feeder add on. The ticket was valid on feeder services. From this it can be seen that IE do have some sort of city centre zone set up but it is just the link between the 2 that they are charging for. I have gone to Harmonstown, Clontarf Road, Grand Canal and Lansdowne Road from Newbridge and they are all the same price as the "city centre" option.

This leads me to believe that there are many people on the Kildare line buying tickets to the "city centre" and then buying seperate tickets for the Dart which they could actually have included in the same price.

It is hard to understand that if I can buy a ticket including luas for an extra 1euro, then why can IE not programme the TVMs in places such as Newbridge and Kildare to include the rest of the network such as Dart destinations. The current ticketing situation is completely archaic.

[PaulM]

It is hard to understand that if I can buy a ticket including luas for an extra 1euro, then why can IE not programme the TVMs in places such as Newbridge and Kildare to include the rest of the network such as Dart destinations. The current ticketing situation is completely archaic.

It is IE and they do not understand the concept of customer service.

[Alan G]

This issue and the myriad of illogical and off-putting fares in the capital city and country are not going to be solved until there is a proper overseeing authority with the funds to remove the operators focus from farebox revenues.

There needs to be a simple set of fare rules applied across all modes based on journeys not mode uses.

Every IC ticket to Heuston SHOULD include free transfer to the city/Connolly and the TIMs in Connolly (I won't mention the Luas machines) should be programmed to issue through tickets for Heuston line destinations.

As said previously though with all the competing operators jealously garding their revenues this will not happen.

The point about CIE being as bad on their own before Luas is correct but still the addition of a third major competing operator has just made any chance of co-operation even more remote.

As someone who (sometimes) uses a multi-mode IE/BE/DB ticket the addition of Luas into the transport mix (but not the ticket) has made travelling to/from Heuston much worse. The whole lack of any consideration for all but the a-b one mode user has me seriously pi**ed off.

The basic ignorance from all of the highly paid supposed experts in the various companies and particularly the civil-service wasters in the DoT who are supposedly acting in the public's interests is apalling, not that I expect any better from them mind.