2011 Proposed Timetable - Connolly Based Services

[ThomasJ]

Heuston is mainly a change for the 4 tracks and the return of a number of ICR coaches

We have already submitted a comprehensive timetable for Connolly which brings a clockface pattern on all routes

That's good to hear! A clockface timetable is desperately needed on the Connolly side!

A few suggestions On the western commuter side:

- m3 parkway services stopping at all stations
- adjust Weekend services from maynooth and m3 to enable a half hourly service for Clonsilla-connolly likewise Connolly departures if possible
- defer the sunday 20:43 pearse maynooth to 21:00 and provide an additional 22:30
- defer the weekday 21:55 back to 22:00 and push the :59 deparures back to :00

[James Howard]

The biggest problems for me with the existing timetable on the Longford route.

1. The existing timetable has been complete fantasy since the end of September - particularly on the peak evening non-stop services. It is a genuine surprise to see the 1705, 1805 and 1905 arrive at Edgeworthstown less than 15 minutes late. In particular, the arrival of the 1905 at Maynooth seems to be greated with genuine surprise every day as you almost almost always sit outside Maynooth for 15 minutes waiting for a crossing train.

2. They should do something about limiting the number of stops on Longford services even if that came at a cost of less capacity. Nonstop from Clonsilla to Connolly seems reasonable (to me anyway). At present, I almost always use the 0545 Sligo Intercity as the earlier trains take 15 minutes longer. The 1715 and 1817(?) services from Connolly are massively underused after Maynooth and could easily be halved in size if they were nonstop to Maynooth given that are generally half full by the time they get to Maynooth.

3. This doesn't affect me personally but I know a couple of people whose lives would be a lot easier if the 1805 to Longford stopped at Drumcondra. This is the natural return train for somebody doing a day's work traveling to Dublin on the 0545 intercity which does stop at Dromcondra.

4. We can live in hope, but greater use of 22Ks would be nice for Longford trains but this can hardly be expected given that at least two daily return trains to Sligo appear to be operated by 29Ks.

5. Shorter running times are always to be welcomed as a general point, but I guess this would make reliability even worse.

[ThomasJ]

The biggest problems for me with the existing timetable on the Longford route.

1. The existing timetable has been complete fantasy since the end of September - particularly on the peak evening non-stop services. It is a genuine surprise to see the 1705, 1805 and 1905 arrive at Edgeworthstown less than 15 minutes late. In particular, the arrival of the 1905 at Maynooth seems to be greated with genuine surprise every day as you almost almost always sit outside Maynooth for 15 minutes waiting for a crossing train.

2. They should do something about limiting the number of stops on Longford services even if that came at a cost of less capacity. Nonstop from Clonsilla to Connolly seems reasonable (to me anyway). At present, I almost always use the 0545 Sligo Intercity as the earlier trains take 15 minutes longer. The 1715 and 1817 services from Connolly are massively underused after Maynooth and could easily be halved in size if they were nonstop to Maynooth given that are generally half full by the time they get to Maynooth.

3. This doesn't affect me personally but I know a couple of people whose lives would be a lot easier if the 1805 to Longford stopped at Drumcondra. This is the natural return train for somebody doing a day's work traveling to Dublin on the 0545 intercity which does stop at Dromcondra.

4. We can live in hope, but greater use of 22Ks would be nice for Longford trains but this can hardly be expected given that at least two daily return trains to Sligo appear to be operated by 29Ks.

5. Shorter running times are always to be welcomed as a general point, but I guess this would make reliability even worse.

A number of things:

- there is no capacity for extra direct services, hence trains going to docklands,
- there is no space for direct trains in the morning between morning maynooth, pace, Longford and Sligo the line is clogged up sort of like the northern line!
- cutting the two morning trains from Longford in half would be a mistake, those are two of the busiest trains in the morning on the maynooth line, the first one only changed from maynooth to Longford at the last timetable
- with regards to the evening services why even still run the 17:15 or 18:17 to Longford if the 17:05 or 18:05 are calling at drumcondra? In fact if you were to cut back the 17:15 and 18:15, there's your 21:00hrs that was cancelled at the last minute a few years back!

[ColmmacO]

A number of things:

- there is no capacity for extra direct services, hence trains going to docklands,
- there is no space for direct trains in the morning between morning maynooth, pace, Longford and Sligo the line is clogged up sort of like the northern line!
- cutting the two morning trains from Longford in half would be a mistake, those are two of the busiest trains in the morning on the maynooth line, the first one only changed from maynooth to Longford at the last timetable
- with regards to the evening services why even still run the 17:15 or 18:17 to Longford if the 17:05 or 18:05 are calling at drumcondra? In fact if you were to cut back the 17:15 and 18:15, there's your 21:00hrs that was cancelled at the last minute a few years back!


18.17 to longford comes from Bray. There may be some issues there with gaps in the timetable. Plus a fair few commuters use it from sandymount and lansdowne and further afield to commute out further along the maynooth line.
I would regard it as a loss in service to those who work on the southside of dublin.

[James Howard]

One thing that has missed in this thread - fair dues to Irish Rail for allowing the general public to comment on timetables before their introduction.

As I said in my earlier post, my own number one preference would be for the timetable to be be robust. After that, everything is pretty much secondary. Extra express services would be nice for me but this is secondary to reliability.

[Mark Gleeson]

Last year following the chaos on the Northern line after the timetable change we worked up a morning timetable for the Connolly area

It seems to cover all issues and it explains why the service is the way it is and by design avoids the current problems.

http://www.railusers.ie/resources/TimetableforPassengers2010.pdf

[KSW]

I would like to see more trains on the Rosslare/Wexford line. Currently after the 9am train the next is 2pm and 7pm its a 5hour gap between trains to Dublin. What passengers need is the early 05.55 service,A service at 7am and 9am and a late morning service at 10.30 or 11am. Lunch-time service at 1.30pm and a late afternoon service at 4pm then the evening service at 7pm.

Dublin southbound to Rosslare or Wexford first service 07.30am, 10.30am to Wexford. 13.30 to Rosslare or Wexford and a 15.30 to Wexford or Rosslare

Bus Eireann has services from Gorey to Dublin/Dublin Airport every hour. Irish Rail need to desperately increase their services that suit the average person and also needs to to seriously reduce the journey time.Rosslare to Bray could take 2hours then the section between Bray and Connolly 30mins that would make it 2hr30mins.

[ThomasJ]

That's good to hear! A clockface timetable is desperately needed on the Connolly side!

A few suggestions On the western commuter side:

- m3 parkway services stopping at all stations
- adjust Weekend services from maynooth and m3 to enable a half hourly service for Clonsilla-connolly likewise Connolly departures if possible
- defer the sunday 20:43 pearse maynooth to 21:00 and provide an additional 22:30
- defer the weekday 21:55 back to 22:00 and push the :59 deparures back to :00

I forwarded these on to Irish rail

[KSW]

Is it not possible for Rosslare/Wexford intercity services to operate from Connolly to Bray directly and not call at Tara Street,Pearse and Dun Laoghaire like it was before the old mark2 was replaced with the commuter 2700class thats when Rosslare trains travelled to Maynooth and Drogheda making it Commuter rather than intercity. Only Arklow or Gorey commuter trains will call at Tara,Pearse and Dun Laoghaire. It would be fantastic if the old Connolly Direct to Bray would be restored.

Would it not make sense to replace the new 22k trains with a mark3 and a 071locomotive because those new trains are good for 160km/h they would be better for a line of that speed.the 071class can do 70 or 80mp/h it would make more sense.

[Mark Gleeson]

We have been through this before

It makes no difference to the end to end times on Rosslare line services to call at Tara, Pearse and Dun Laoghaire but it does help significantly with passenger numbers

Through a combination of safety, accessibility and cost reasons the Mk3 coaches are not an option on the Rosslare line. It was the only route where Mk3 coaches were never scheduled to operate. The current trains cost roughly half the running cost vs the previous locomotive option.

This is not a fantasy timetable it is reality and there will be no Mk3 operated trains anywhere in the 2011 timetable unless someone pays for refurbishment. Irish Rail managed to construct a business case to get 51 ICR coaches instead of refurbishing 48 Mk3 coaches, the costs over 10 years favoured new trains.

The ICR is as things stand today a far better train than the un refurbished Mk3.

ICR would be faster point to point than any locomotive option on any route nationwide

[ColmmacO]

Last year following the chaos on the Northern line after the timetable change we worked up a morning timetable for the Connolly area

It seems to cover all issues and it explains why the service is the way it is and by design avoids the current problems.

http://www.railusers.ie/resources/TimetableforPassengers2010.pdf

Thats a very interesting read Mark.
Fair play.
Especially like the 3 maynooth - bray services!

[shweeney]

Last year following the chaos on the Northern line after the timetable change we worked up a morning timetable for the Connolly area

It seems to cover all issues and it explains why the service is the way it is and by design avoids the current problems.

http://www.railusers.ie/resources/TimetableforPassengers2010.pdf

slight problem - you have a Rosslare train leaving Bray @ 0824 and a Dart leaving Greystones @ 0825, they'd crash into each other (looks like the latter could be moved back 10 mins though).

[Mark Gleeson]

slight problem - you have a Rosslare train leaving Bray @ 0824 and a Dart leaving Greystones @ 0825, they'd crash into each other (looks like the latter could be moved back 10 mins though).

Its not perfect but we can work on issues like that

[sublimity]

Any idea when Rosslare will be getting a 6 coach 22000?
Also, when will extra 22000's be arriving on the Rosslare line?

[DangerM]

I would like to see more trains on the Rosslare/Wexford line. Currently after the 9am train the next is 2pm and 7pm its a 5hour gap between trains to Dublin. What passengers need is the early 05.55 service,A service at 7am and 9am and a late morning service at 10.30 or 11am. Lunch-time service at 1.30pm and a late afternoon service at 4pm then the evening service at 7pm.

Dublin southbound to Rosslare or Wexford first service 07.30am, 10.30am to Wexford. 13.30 to Rosslare or Wexford and a 15.30 to Wexford or Rosslare

Bus Eireann has services from Gorey to Dublin/Dublin Airport every hour. Irish Rail need to desperately increase their services that suit the average person and also needs to to seriously reduce the journey time.Rosslare to Bray could take 2hours then the section between Bray and Connolly 30mins that would make it 2hr30mins.

Nobody cares about the Wexford line, I don't even see
It mentioned in the RailUsers paper. The service provided on that line for the price we pay for a ticket is an absolute joke.

[Mark Gleeson]

Bus Eireann is only operating hourly to Rosslare due to a license requirement. Loads are single digits outside peak hours. The only bus which does reasonably well outside normal hours is the 1:30am from Rosslare which gets to Dublin Airport in time for the first flights of the day

The timetable we constructed is for peak hour only and is titled "A Dublin Suburban Timetable", it makes no reference to Sligo/Belfast or Rosslare as a result. Together with our colleagues in Wexford a draft Dublin Rosslare service timetable is underdevelopment (trains ex Dublin on the hours 7,10,13,16,19 with 17/18 to Gorey/Wexford)

We have attended countless meetings with Irish Rail on this subject and found that no matter what we say or do that nothing changes. Thankfully the legal situation will change shortly and we can have enforcement procedures taken against Irish Rail on some issues. The best that can be realistically sought is a train every 3 hours Rosslare - Dublin with extra trains Gorey/Wexford to/from Dublin at peak hours.

I can't see how to speed matters up, the trains are already on the limit through the twisty sections you can feel the suspension hitting its lateral bump stop

The route has currently by far the best trains ever to operate on it, equal to all other routes. There are more passenger trains today than ever in history south of Wicklow and the journey times are significantly less than the best times of 10-20 years ago. Average times in 2011 are 20 minutes less than the best time in the 1970's (no other route can claim that). Rail times are all 3 hours or less, while bus times are up to 3 hours 40 minutes.

[ThomasJ]

Has anyone heard anything on m3 parkway services?

Rumours seem to be saying, they will be hourly, call at all stations beyond Clonsilla and off peak services will terminate in connolly

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats the official line. Peak hour numbers are not too bad off peak they aren't great

This non stop lark was ill advised, unclear if off peak will serve Drumcondra or not

[ThomasJ]

Thats the official line. Peak hour numbers are not too bad off peak they aren't great

This non stop lark was ill advised, unclear if off peak will serve Drumcondra or not

That's great news but I hope it is balanced to provide a half hourly services for d15 commuters. No point in having two trains in the space of ten minutes then a fifty minute gap.

Any news on Sunday evening services?

[dowlingm]

Would there be any decent benefit from extending the Greystones loop north as far as the southernmost tunnel in order to reduce delays arising from DART? I'm usually a bit of a sceptic on investing much south of Bray Head due the likelihood of erosion related line closure, but what the heck :D

[Mark Gleeson]

Two changes are needed, some work at Bray to eliminate a small pinch point at the south end of the platforms and two tracks from tunnel 4 to Greystones

That would have a substantial impact but you wouldn't let you run any extra trains really

[neoncircles]

Any idea when Rosslare will be getting a 6 coach 22000?
Also, when will extra 22000's be arriving on the Rosslare line?


Many platforms on the way to Rosslare are too short for a 6 piece, so until they get selective door opening there wont be any 6 piece.

[Jamie2k9]

I can think of other lines which would need a 6 car a lot more than Rosslare line services.

so until they get selective door opening there wont be any 6 piece

Are they planning to get this?

[KSW]

Together with our colleagues in Wexford a draft Dublin Rosslare service timetable is underdevelopment (trains ex Dublin on the hours 7,10,13,16,19 with 17/18 to Gorey/Wexford)

The best that can be realistically sought is a train every 3 hours Rosslare - Dublin with extra trains Gorey/Wexford to/from Dublin at peak hours.

:)

[DangerM]

Mark – I fully appreciate these are Irish Rail issues and that you are trying to get a better service for those who commute daily on the Rosslare line but even if the “route has currently by far the best trains ever to operate on it” it is still to a very poor level of service. All I can say is I pity the people travelling back in the 70’s!

To accurately compare bus times to rail times, please take a look at the Wexford Bus timetable, they can get you from Gorey to Dublin city centre in 1hr 35 mins versus Irish Rail which takes 2hrs. On the train you need to leave Gorey at 06:45 to get into Dublin later than a bus that doesn’t leave until 07:05! Don’t even get me started on the fact that the last train back out of Dublin is as early as 18:30 whereas buses are around the clock. Is there any other route in Ireland where the last train is that early?

I also cannot understand how there is no way to speed the trains up as we have often left our station 15 minutes late and still miraculously made it into Dublin at the same time. Do you honestly believe there is not buffering on the timetable when we sit outside Greystones for 10 minutes each day? 10 – 15 minutes might not mean a lot to most but when you are travelling 3hrs a day every minute counts.

Finally, an annual Arklow to Connolly ticket costs the same as a Dundalk to Connolly ticket and I know the pricing is down to distance rather than service. It is completely unfair however that we pay the same price for such an inferior service. There are only 7 Arklow to Connolly services yet 15 Dundalk to Connolly services per day and the Dundalk to Connolly takes 1hr 30mins versus 1hr 45mins for the Arklow service.

[shweeney]

Two changes are needed, some work at Bray to eliminate a small pinch point at the south end of the platforms and two tracks from tunnel 4 to Greystones

from first 200 metres or so north from Greystones station are in a cutting blasted out of rock - can't see any justification for widening that for such marginal benefit.

They could definitely do things more efficiently at the Bray side though - sthbound trains are held until the northbound train has arrived and opened its doors, despite there being 2 tracks for about half a mile south from the station.

[Mark Gleeson]

The bulk of the line between Bray and Greystones was built to allow two tracks if required later. The track is generally now in the centre of the alignment to fit the overhead wires in without replacing bridges and reduce work required at tunnels. Problem of course is several extra tunnels built are single track only

The pinch point is just off the platform in Bray where all trains to/from Greystones have to share a short section of track, on both sides its two track

It is possible to hold a train south of the station to be passed but despite the opportunity to do so I have not seen it happen. This has been raised with Irish Rail as it would save precious minutes. The track layout in Greystones doesn't help matters either as a train approaching from Wicklow must be brought to a crawl or halt before entering the station as there is no trap points/run off to protect the train. There is on the main platform, southbound

None of these will reduce journey times, just reduce delays and make the system more resilient when delays occur.

[joey]

Why can't the line between Connolly and Heuston be restored. Capacity can't be an issue, even if they put a train every half hour to and from the two stations it would be of great benifit. This would save building an underground metro, maybe I have missed something obvious why this cant be done... There is also a disused line parellel to this line too.

[ThomasJ]

Why can't the line between Connolly and Heuston be restored. Capacity can't be an issue, even if they put a train every half hour to and from the two stations it would be of great benifit. This would save building an underground metro, maybe I have missed something obvious why this cant be done... There is also a disused line parellel to this line too.

capacity and accessability into connolly is a major issue!

Surely as an maynooth line passenger, you have noticed the amount of time some of the maynooth line services sit stuck between drumcondra and connolly, Its because part of the line inbound is shared with northbound services. Could you imagine if you threw heuston services in aswell!?

[ThomasJ]

any idea of when the proposed connolly side timetable is to be available to the public as a draft?

[dowlingm]

The main priority must be pushing forward with incremental improvements. Presumably DASH2 with the increased capacity on the loop line and the GCD turnback might help shift some trains to terminating south of Connolly? Closing the Maynooth line LCs might help get them moving westward with following trains being able to be dispatched sooner.

Regardless of how beneficial major projects might be (including the one I myself proposed only a few posts above) realistically IE needs to finish projects under way and thereafter capital allocations are likely to preclude major works like new stations and spurs. Someone needs to look hard at Connolly and figure out how some additional capacity can be squeezed from platform and track space - even in terms of how passengers are entering and egressing from platforms. Perhaps RUI have some ideas in that direction?

[Mark Gleeson]

Thread split following drift

We do not have sight of the Connolly draft yet, expected shortly

Our submission made some months ago http://www.railusers.ie/resources/TimetableforPassengers2010.pdf

By no means perfect but at least we provide a justification as to why it is the way it is

[Fergal]

Thread split following drift

We do not have sight of the Connolly draft yet, expected shortly

Our submission made some months ago http://www.railusers.ie/resources/TimetableforPassengers2010.pdf

By no means perfect but at least we provide a justification as to why it is the way it is

What about the off-peak side of that timetable. As far as I can see, that's an even bigger mess than the peak, especially for Malahide DART services, where 2 trains will call in 10 minutes, followed by an hours gap: see the 14.51 and 14.54 from Connolly for a good example.

[maloner]

Hi Mark,

I have to complement you and the other contributors of the proposed 2011 timetable - it makes a lot of sence - lets hope those making decisions can take it on board!

I realise your proposal is more focused on the Suburban timetables, however I would be curious if you have any insight into the possiblity of the 21:00 service out of Connolly towards Mullingar/Sligo? It's a real paing having such an early "Last Train".

Will have some Election hopefuls calling by the house this week - so if you have any ammunition I could use to add to lobby would be great.

Thanks

John

A number of things:

- there is no capacity for extra direct services, hence trains going to docklands,
- there is no space for direct trains in the morning between morning maynooth, pace, Longford and Sligo the line is clogged up sort of like the northern line!
- cutting the two morning trains from Longford in half would be a mistake, those are two of the busiest trains in the morning on the maynooth line, the first one only changed from maynooth to Longford at the last timetable
- with regards to the evening services why even still run the 17:15 or 18:17 to Longford if the 17:05 or 18:05 are calling at drumcondra? In fact if you were to cut back the 17:15 and 18:15, there's your 21:00hrs that was cancelled at the last minute a few years back!

[Mark Gleeson]

Back in 2007 Irish Rail proposed cutting back one of the 3 Dublin Longford evening trains to Mullingar and providing a 21:00 or 21:15 Connolly Longford service. Longford has a ridiculous 6 trains, 4 of which are express between 4 and 7pm there simply isn't demand to justify this

Seemed a very reasonable deal but the local politicians got in the way and Irish Rail didn't go ahead with it

So if you can stomach the Bray Longford train going to Mullingar only then you can have your later train to Longford

We sadly don't have the time to produce an entire week of timetables but beyond peak hours it shouldn't be that hard to fit any requirement. Looking at the timetable a 21:05 departure is the logical choice to keep the Sligo line pattern

[James Howard]

Losing either the 1715 or the 1817 from Connolly to Longford would be very little loss to most people given that they follow express trains by 10 and 12 minutes respectively and take about an extra 20 minutes. I find the 1817 so unreliable that I may as well wait the extra 50 minutes for the 1905 and travel in a reasonable amount of comfort. I have also been on the 1817 a couple of times where I've shared a car with cider swilling yobs and nobody else and I'd rather not do that again.

I think I've been on the 1715 about three times in 6 years of commuting and I take the 1817 about once every two months. Judging by the load beyond Maynooth I don't think may others would miss one of them if it finished at Mullingar.

A 2105 would be nice for me to allow a couple of scoops on a Friday night after work, but it wouldn't be a huge priority for office hours people (which is all Irish Rail seem to care about). But it could be a big help for people like shop staff or hospital staff. One thing that would be worth doing if they were to bring in a later train would be to talk to major employers like Intel to see if something could be fitted in with their shift patterns.

[ThomasJ]

Whatever happened to the proposed Connolly side timetable?

I thought we were expecting to see it?

[Mark Gleeson]

Connolly will follow once Heuston has been completed.

Bear in mind the form on the website allows feedback on the Connolly side timetable as well

[ThomasJ]

so as the heuston side timetable prepares to go live on may 8th, focus switches back to the connolly side timetable!

Iarnród Éireann will publish draft schedules for Connolly Station routes, including DART and Commuter, shortly, and will be inviting customers to express their views on the schedule proposed.

[paddyb180285]

By gum,

It's been a while. I was looking at the Irish Rail website. While I was there, I decided to look further ahead into the Irish Rail calender. There doesn't seem to be any changes coming soon as the current timetable appears to be valid until February 11th, 2012. In other words, when I look up services up to that particular date under the "Departing on" field, it displays the timetable. Hereafter, there is nothing. Unless, changes are going to be made between now and then.

[Mark Gleeson]

The Connolly timetable drafts will not be released until the Heuston side is implemented

There will be a set of drafts released, I have spoken to the DART service planning manager and he confirms a consultation process will occur.

Unless told otherwise the website just rolls the timetable forward. Bookings are limited to 28 days ahead to prevent problems when timetables change

There be trains running 25/12/2011 if you check today...

[Colm Moore]

Could we ever so nicely, please sir, have them in a spreadsheet or similar format?

[ThomasJ]

Im hoping they will spring a surprise with regards to maynooth line sunday evening services, otherwise clockface timetable will do nicely

oh and return the evening pearse departures back to the top of the hour please (including the 21:55)