New Train Service from Newry

[irishsaint]

I don't have full details yet and Translink confirmed that details will be published both on their website and in Newry Train Station in the coming weeks.

From December 13th 2010.
Depart Newry @ 06:50
Arrive in Dublin Connolly @ 08:31

Presumably this is an extension of the 07:10 from Dundalk to now start in Newry - I cant confirm this however as Translink have not given me any more details than the times above.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a long term aspiration to provide a 6 coach ICR service from north of the border starting in late 2011. Calling limited stops to Dublin. This was affirmed at a recent North/South meeting http://www.northsouthministerialcouncil.org/index/publications/joint-communiques/sectoral-jc/transport_jc/transport_jc_20_october_2010.htm this is entirely dependent on the delivery of new trains in 2011

Two cross border meetings took place this year with the approval of the North/South Ministerial body where the inability to reach both Belfast and Dublin by rail before 9am was highlighted as a serious restriction to cross border business. RUI was represented at both meetings

Irish Rail do not have any rolling stock approved to operate north of the border bar the Enterprise sets. The 29k fleet cannot legally operate in Northern Ireland due to a lack of AWS/TPWS equipment, Newry station is fitted with both

The 7:10 Dundalk Bray is already overcrowded, routinely delayed and unsuitable for a 70 mile journey. If this happens we will be complaining. There are much higher priorities which need addressing and most of all no change should make matters worse

Irish Rail have indicated there will be NO timetable change in December 2010 and the usual planning process did not happen over the Summer.

[irishsaint]

The 7:10 Dundalk Bray is already overcrowded, routinely delayed and unsuitable for a 70 mile journey. If this happens we will be complaining. There are much higher priorities which need addressing and most of all no change should make matters worse


I will be countering your complaint - we badly need a service from Newry arriving in Dublin before 9am. If this is the available solution at present, then so be it and I get the 07:10 from Dundalk on many occasions, which requires my own transport from Newry. This train is not overcrowded as you state. It peaks with passenger numebrs maybe from Rush and Lusk but is by no means over-crowded. Routinely delay yes, but almost all services from Dundalk are at present.

[Mark Gleeson]

The understanding we had was extra services using suitable trains and that is in directly alignment with the submission made to the North/South body and the response from both Translink and IE. This is the usual half arsed Irish Rail solution which makes life worse.

Overcrowding is a serious problem, grand if you have a seat, horrible otherwise. Irish Rail did cut the 7:10 to 6 coaches for a few days recently.

The Newry Dundalk section is notorious for wheelslip and as I've pointed out numerous times there are no trains of any type currently approved to operate in NI so how exactly this will occur is anyones guess, after all Irish Rail's statement clearly says they waiting on extra trains to become available some of which are fully equipped for Northern Ireland.

[irishsaint]

The understanding we had was extra services using suitable trains and that is in directly alignment with the submission made to the North/South body and the response from both Translink and IE. This is the usual half arsed Irish Rail solution which makes life worse.

Overcrowding is a serious problem, grand if you have a seat, horrible otherwise. Irish Rail did cut the 7:10 to 6 coaches for a few days recently.

The Newry Dundalk section is notorious for wheelslip and as I've pointed out numerous times there are no trains of any type currently approved to operate in NI so how exactly this will occur is anyones guess, after all Irish Rail's statement clearly says they waiting on extra trains to become available some of which are fully equipped for Northern Ireland.

I agree about not having a seat but not having a seat can't be classed as overcrowding? On intercity services, its shambolic but commuter and DART, it has to be expected. I remember when people were standing from Laytown on the 07:10, I have not seen that since before the Malahide incident now - regarding the 6 coaches, I have not been on the 07:10 this week.

Maybe it is a half arsed solution but I would say the majority of the Newry users of a new 06:50 service are the ones you will find that go to Dundalk for the 07:10 anyway, I don't think passenger numbers from Newry will increase the passenger count on this service but will reduce the number of car park spaces being used in Dundalk.

But this 07:10 from Dundalk may not be extended to Newry - all I know is there is a 06:50 starting in Newry from December 13th. Maybe one of NI's C3Ks which leaves Newry around 07:30 is going to do a Newry - Dundalk service before returning to Newry for the Newry Belfast service @ 07:30, meaning a change at Dundalk for the 07:10 Dundalk to Bray?

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail have indicated ownership of the service. True a C3K could be used which would resolve many practical matters. It would require a 6 piece set with two drivers and two conductors on the 6:20 from Portadown, split at Newry. NIR has suspended all 6 coach operations recently due shortage of trains.

That said having to change trains is again was not what was proposed, direct Belfast Dublin arriving 8:30-8:40

The information tends to suggest a one way service with no corresponding Dundalk Newry leg

[KSW]

Irish Rail have indicated there will be NO timetable change in December 2010

There should be ;))

[chris]

It's worth pointing out that a 06:50 from Newry would allow passengers to connect from the 06:20 Portadown-Newry service, but would not actually help Belfast-Dublin commuters

[irishsaint]

It's worth pointing out that a 06:50 from Newry would allow passengers to connect from the 06:20 Portadown-Newry service, but would not actually help Belfast-Dublin commuters

The information provided to me does not state Newry as the start point, only referring to 06:50 from Newry. Information in email from May Orr, Cross Border Customer Services in NIR. Incidently, the email initially related to a completely different issue regarding the cancelled 06:50 from Belfast at Portadown on the 18th Oct but she decided to add information regarding this new service as I a long with many other Newry commuters have continually complained at the fact that NIR does not cater for frontier workers. On this note, does anyone know who to complain to if you are not satisfied with NIR's response, Department for Regional Development?

[Mark Gleeson]

You must appeal first to the Rail Services General Manager, Central Station

If still unhappy

The Consumer Council
Elizabeth House 116 Holywood Road Belfast BT4 1NY
Complaints line: 0845 601 6022 Fax: 028 9065 7701 complaints@consumercouncil.org.uk www.consumercouncil.org.uk

[irishsaint]

You must appeal first to the Rail Services General Manager, Central Station

If still unhappy

The Consumer Council
Elizabeth House 116 Holywood Road Belfast BT4 1NY
Complaints line: 0845 601 6022 Fax: 028 9065 7701 complaints@consumercouncil.org.uk www.consumercouncil.org.uk

General Manager - Mal McGreevy?

[Mark Gleeson]

General Manager - Mal McGreevy?

Yes

General Manager of Rail Services
Mr Mal McGreevy
Central Station Belfast
BT3 9BG
Phone: 028 9089 9400

[Mickey H]

Within translink staff circles it has been know for some weeks that there are plans to start the 0713 ex Dundalk from Newry at 0655 and extend the 1713 ex Pearse to Newry in the evening although not finally confirmed

A 29K can operate without translink safety equipment with 2 staff in the cab and I believe they are limited to 40mph on translink

On a related matter why did IE go to the expense of having the first six ICR fitted to run on translink when they have never been tested there in order to do so?

[Mark Gleeson]

The 17:13 is the busiest on the Northern Line, was the very first 8 coach train ever, thats going to be fun and slow.

There is a problem, you can only use the Belfast bound platform to start/terminate a train at Newry, so how do they cope with both a C3K and a 29K at the same time?

The 6 ICR sets are not used cross border as they are used elsewhere. The formal plan is to use them once the 51 coaches are delivered next year as indicated by Irish Rail to the North/South body.

I very much doubt Irish Rail have an exemption from the TPWS rules, after all steam trains are being fitted at great expense. If they do it will be the first such exemption

All we want is train from Belfast getting to Dublin before 8:40am, once again Irish Rail fail to deliver

[Mickey H]

"you can only use the Belfast bound platform to start/terminate a train at Newry, so how do they cope with both a C3K and a 29K at the same time?"


Run the 29 empty to Poyntzpass and reverse using the crossover there. Poyntzpass is fully signalled for such a move

[dowlingm]

Is this proposed service going to be designated as Enterprise? If so how does this fit with the NIR/IE 50/50 arrangement?

Probably better to re-form 4 sets of DDs (as originally intended I think?) and run Belfast-Newry express and on from there. At least we know 201s and DD-DVTs are "known good" for that run.

[Mickey H]

Translink have just released the revised cross border timetable valid from December 13th and there is NO evening service Dublin to Newry



http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/Timetables/Enterprise/Enterprise%20Timetable%20131210.pdf

[Mark Gleeson]

I'll have an answer to the legal issue of the 29k in NI by December 3rd. Isn't FOI great.

[EnterpriseUser]

It is a shame the service does not originate in Belfast at 0545 and give an arrival in Dublin at 0831: even with a change at Newry this would be valuable as the 0650 ex Belfast is rarely, if ever, on time!

[irishsaint]

now for me, only issue left is ticketing, it would be a waste to have to leave the Train at Connolly, Tara or Pearse to get an onward DART ticket considering this train will service stations to Bray. I use GCD. NIR tickets obviously dont work in the ticket gates, but surely there is something NIR and IR can do, perhaps have a staff member from Dundalk with a ticketing machine on board from Newry to Dundalk or something like that. But then we would be hit with IR prices and not NIR prices. Newry to Dublin monthly NIR is £216, same route with IR is €318 - £50 difference, its socking from IR because the next station on the route, Dundalk is €259 per month.

[Mickey H]

There is not just the TPWS issue. Any passenger train operating in Northern Ireland must have a Guard (Conductor). This also applies to EMPTY passenger trains except between York Road Depot and Belfast Central.

[Mark Gleeson]

But the Irish Rail ticket is available through the taxsaver scheme which cuts the price significantly.

Irish Rail is not subsidised to facilitate cross border commuters, the subsidy in Northern Ireland is considerably lower so you get issues with the prices. Now Irish Rail have told us that they see cross border hedging going on where one year a passenger buys the ticket from NIR and the next from IE depending on the prevailing situation. Under normal conditions 270 euro for that distance

NIR tickets are as valid as any other ticket and all the barrier lines are staffed or supervised at all times. All IE issued annuals from Jan 2011 are smartcards

Good point on the conductor, that is due to a lack of a proper radio system.

[irishsaint]

But the Irish Rail ticket is available through the taxsaver scheme which cuts the price significantly.


That is fine if you are not self employed or your employer is part of the scheme. I not having an employer who will sign up to the taxsaver scheme. Therefore, I do not get the significant tax savings in purchasing a ticket from IR, hence why I purchase the cheaper option from NIR.

[chris]

Afaik Dun Laoghaire and Bray are on the NI ticketing machines. Most staff don't know this however.

Unlike from the Republic, it is not possible to issue a ticket from N Ireland to any IE station.

[irishsaint]

Afaik Dun Laoghaire and Bray are on the NI ticketing machines. Most staff don't know this however.

Unlike from the Republic, it is not possible to issue a ticket from N Ireland to any IE station.

You can only purchase a single or return to Dun Laoghaire, Bray or Howth. Not weekly or monthly season tickets.

Tara and Pearse are free (free onward travel for Enterprise Users) but all other DART stations are not on NIR's ticketing system. I have asked them this already.

[Mark Gleeson]

Actually NIR can issue a ticket to any destination, as the price is based on distance bands, the stations at the band edges are programmed in

Fare to the border, then an add on by distance from there

So a return to Blackrock from Belfast is going to be the same price as Dun Laoghaire so they issue Dun Laoghaire (that said Dun Laoghaire is actually hardcoded in since its considered an NIR station on the system - see the 1950 transport act)

The IE crouzet system can cope will all NIR destinations but applies the same calculation logic with the fares, the S&B TVM's are also programmed at Enterprise stations for all NIR destinations.

Based on European experiences we have one of the most integrated cross border fare systems, it is unheard of to be able to through ticket any to any

[irishsaint]

Actually NIR can issue a ticket to any destination, as the price is based on distance bands, the stations at the band edges are programmed in

Fare to the border, then an add on by distance from there

Correspondence from NIR today:

"
Thank you for your e-mail. Our current fare structure does not include weekly fares beyond Dublin however, you do raise a very valid enquiry which we are currently investigating.

At this stage, I would advise that it is likely there would be an increase to your weekly ticket for travel to a DART station from £60.00 to approximately £66.00 (an additional £0.60 per single journey).

Please be assured we are looking into this matter and I will be in contact with you when we have a firm solution.
"

[Mark Gleeson]

The cross border add on matrix (used for all stations beyond Connolly) is purely, single/return

That said Irish Rail taxsaver office has the ability to issue an annual from any station Belfast - Border to anywhere else in Ireland and can quote a price more or less instantly

[irishsaint]

The cross border add on matrix (used for all stations beyond Connolly) is purely, single/return

That said Irish Rail taxsaver office has the ability to issue an annual from any station Belfast - Border to anywhere else in Ireland and can quote a price more or less instantly

I asked this before (not taxsaver but general ticketing inquiry) and I was told that I could not get a Monthly from GCD to Newry. I was told I could get Lansdowne to Newry. I can't remember the price but it was not worth it compared to NIR price + 7 Day Rolling DART. It is great for anyone who can avail of the taxsaver though.

[dowlingm]

Seems a bit bizarre if an IE set is heading north to Newry but not in revenue service, given that Dundalk station's first service is 0540 and is therefore open. The 0650 ex Newry runs all the way to Bangor via Belfast GVS (0754) which would surely be attractive to some.

[chris]

Actually NIR can issue a ticket to any destination, as the price is based on distance bands, the stations at the band edges are programmed in

I appreciate that this might be the case, but NIR staff genuinely don't know it – including the manager of the Adelaide call centre and Enterprise ticket checkers.

[Mark Gleeson]

I've been told straight to the face by the NIR Rail General Manager that it couldn't be done, only for the clerk in Belfast Central to say it was no problem.

Needless to say that issue has gone as high as the North/South body

[ThomasJ]

Irish Rail have indicated there will be NO timetable change in December 2010 and the usual planning process did not happen over the Summer.

But from what I can see on the Irish rail site, the current IE timetable is in operation until the 14th January 2011? Is this more an adjustment on the translink side, allbeit with impact on irisb rail?

[Mark Gleeson]

The website keeps rolling the date forward so don't take it as some indication of something

[Thomas Ralph]

I've been told straight to the face by the NIR Rail General Manager that it couldn't be done, only for the clerk in Belfast Central to say it was no problem.

Needless to say that issue has gone as high as the North/South body

The NIR website (http://www.translink.co.uk/Enterprise/Enterprise-Fares1/) will gladly price up tickets from anywhere in the North to an assortment of major ROI stations. Rarely however will the fares at the booking office be competitive with web fares.

[Mark Gleeson]

That only appeared after the meetings took place in Belfast and Dublin

Needless to say higher powers were very interested when myself and Thomas Stamp started to expose the abilities of the system. Both IE and NIR seemed to be hiding it in an attempt to fish for cash for a fancy integrated ticketing solution

[irishsaint]

The website keeps rolling the date forward so don't take it as some indication of something

The new 06:50 should effect IR's timetable, only NIR's - However, the 09:35 and the 19:00 Dublin to Belfast are timetabled to arrive 5 minutes later from 13th December and the 20:10 Belfast - Dublin service is timetabled to arrive 3 minutes later. (Lisburn stop added, bizarrely these are not the only services with a lisburn stop added but are the only ones which will take longer)

[Mark Gleeson]

I'll have an answer to the legal issue of the 29k in NI by December 3rd. Isn't FOI great.

NI Dept of Regional Development have no record of any applications from Irish Rail on the TPWS issue. They have issued exemptions to NIR on behalf of the RPSI (TPWS + Black Box) and a time limited exemption on Enterprise (Black Box) and time limited on class 80 (central door locks). NIR made 8 applications in total

There is one application under review currently, steam locomotive 461

As a result a 29k is not legally permitted over the border unless it has TPWS

[Mickey H]

Just heard from a reliable source within translink that these trains will NOT now run

[Mark Gleeson]

Hmm.

[James Shields]

A possible solution for the Connolly to GCD leg is to buy an irish rail smart (dumb) card. There's a smart card reader on a pole at the arch between platforms 4 and 5. You could hop off at p5, tag on, and jump back on again.

[Mark Gleeson]

James, where is this smartcard reader? Pass the spot every day, spent 10 minutes on Saturday looking around

I clearly recall asking IE's smartcard team to look into providing one for this very purpose but didn't think it had been sorted out

[irishsaint]

Just heard from a reliable source within translink that these trains will NOT now run

Correct - email from Translink today:

"....I regret to inform you that the introduction of this service has been delayed due to a number of operational reasons. We endeavour to resolve these issues at the earliest opportunity and it is still our intention to introduce this service in the near future...."

New service will now not go ahead on the 13th December

[Mark Gleeson]

So basically they need to wait for suitable train to provide the service.

Its amazing how management don't know the rules under which they must operate.

As of December 1st there is no application for the safety exemptions required

[Mickey H]

My previously reliable translink source expects this service to start in March using a 29K

Have they now made the necessary exemption application?

[Mark Gleeson]

On December 2nd there was no record of an application from Irish Rail. There was one application under consideration for the former DSER steam locomotive no 461

The exemptions which exist (steam trains only) are for infrequent use under heavy restricted speeds with significant staff cover

No exemptions for daily use without TPWS exist

[jp1690]

I have it on good authority the service was pulled because IR drivers told the IE to get stuffed having to start that extra bit earlier, the union got involved and the service was shelved......

[Mark Gleeson]

The truth is Irish Rail and Translink could not legally operate the service due to the trains involved not being equipped with suitable safety equipment.

Authorities in Belfast are investigating a series of breeches of rail safety and NI law with respect to Irish trains operating in NI without the safety gear fitted

[ACustomer]

Is the Union story a smokescreen? However knowing some of the union antics in the public sector, it might not be.

But the lack of safety equipment (CAWS, AWS, etc) is a truly pathetic excuse. Trains operate from the UK to France aand Belgium every day and no doubt a large number of other cross border operations occur in Europe with appropriate equipment being fitted.

It's all part of the "can't do" mentality afflcting our public services.

[Mark Gleeson]

But its extremely expensive to fit the equipment and it has to be certified and tested. Its custom to each train.

Irish Rail has 6 ICR sets fitted, NIR has 6 C3K sets and 6 201 class locomotives

The 6 ICR sets are planned to operate some cross border services from 2012 onwards

[bg07]

When are the new batch of 22000 due to start arriving/entering service? I presume these are what are required before these new 22000 cross border services begin.

[Mark Gleeson]

57 are due between now and Summer, allowing for commissioning they should all be in place for 2012

[dowlingm]

The reality is that there should be a single rail control system in the island of Ireland being rolled out based on the European ERTMS standards with eventually all trains being "go-anywhere" (subject to driver and stock clearance) but instead the Republic chose to subsidise flights to Derry and half a billion on the A5.

[Mark Gleeson]

After a lot of prodding in Dublin and Belfast the NI administration has finally revealed a very suspect exemption for certain cross border trains

This was not revealed under FOI get the feeling they didn't want to tell me

[dowlingm]

Gleeson yeh big tease yeh :D

[Mark Gleeson]

Seems like from March 21st there will be a train from Newry to Dublin

The safety arrangements are less than impressive and the exemptions were hidden and not disclosed.

[plant43]

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=1030

Newry-Dublin commuter train added to morning schedule.

Iarnród Éireann, in cooperation with Translink, is to begin operating a new cross-border commuter service from Newry to Dublin from Monday next 21st March.

The existing 07.10 Dundalk to Dublin to Bray service is now extended to operate from Newry at 06.45 (Monday to Friday), offering a new option to those commuting from Newry to Dublin, as well as to Dundalk and Drogheda.

The service will be operated by Iarnród Éireann commuter trains, and is being introduced with the assistance of Translink, and following discussions at the North-South Ministerial Council.

[Commuter101]

No chance this train could run direct then from Drogheda / Laytown???!

[Mark Gleeson]

For your own safety do not travel in the front or very rear coach. The train does not have the safety equipment required and operates under a very strange exemption which would not be tolerated by Network Rail in the UK

A large number of stakeholders met with NIR and IE in Dublin and Belfast in 2010 demanding amongst other things a early morning Belfast Dublin service

As always we get the messy half arsed solution

[Colm Moore]

http://www.translink.co.uk/Timetables/NI-Railways-Timetables/Northern-Ireland-Railways-Service-1-Outbound/

Hmm, a 1 minute connection with the 0620 ex-Portadown. I presume that remains operated by NIR.

[joey]

interesting Mark, how come? seems a bit harsh...

[Inniskeen]

Commencing Monday March 21st the 0620 Portadown to Newry departs at 0615 arriving Newry 0639.

The suggestion that the proposed service is in some way unsafe is patent nonsense. There is no more risk to passengers than on the Kerry, Galway, Rosslare, Sligo or Westport lines which are not AWS, CAWS, DRA or TPWS fitted.

Presumeably this is a temporary arrangement pending the allocation of AWS/TPWS fitted ICR sets. In the interim elaborate, extensive and largely unnecessary arrangements will be in place to compensate for the absence of these systems. It is frankly farcical that such a simple service extension has generated such manic interest from the safety industry.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its in breech of UK regulations and is unique in having an exemption, there is no other recorded exemptions of this kind

The basic fact is the train used is unsuitable from a passenger standpoint in comfort and facilities. Both Irish Rail and Translink have trains which comply fully with the regulations which offer greater comfort. It is not what was discussed with the railway companies in 2010

So its a lose lose a uncomfortable train which is not in compliance with the regulation vs a comfortable train which is compliant

There is no end date on the exemption, again unique

Safety is the key and first concern, is this less safe than current, yes, is it less safe than considered acceptable by the safety authorities yes. Has safety been compromised to save money?

[Jamie2k9]

I don't know how an agreement like this can be allowed to happon even when they have the right trains that can operate the service.

What will happon next? Will we see IE trains operating to Belfast when the enterprise breaks down.

[dowlingm]

We'll probably see C4Ks on this route before we see 22Ks at IE's pace :D

edit: If IE used 90mph capable stock rather than, let's say, 70mph 29000s, then based on existing Enterprise timings from Newry-Drogheda the train could leave at about 0652 - and hey, maybe even offer Dundalk or Drogheda people a chance to make the 0650 departure to Belfast. But hey, who needs to make Belfast before 0945, right? Would this exemption even allow northbound carriage of passengers even if IE made time to stop on the way north?

[Padna]

If these trains are considered "unsafe" while operating on the short stretch between Newry and the border, are they equally unsafe when operating on the much longer stretch southwards from the border to Dublin & Bray?

[Mark Gleeson]

The trains have all the safety gear for Ireland, they don't have the Northern Irish safety equipment. It is a legal requirement to have this equipment but you can beg for a exemption. This to my knowledge is the only exemption ever granted for a scheduled passenger service. Translink probably has acquired the greatest number of exemptions of any rail operator in the UK industry. To make matters confusing Translink applied for the exemption not Irish Rail which again is at odds with the way this is normally done.

For the record the last fatality accidents in both Ireland and Northern Ireland involved trains passing red signals and rear ending a stationary train. Both accidents would have been either prevented or significantly reduced in scale had the equipment existed then

Basically the train Irish Rail are sending up has no equipment fitted which will warn the driver of the next signal (AWS) and which will stop the train if it passes a red signal or approaches a red signal too fast (TPWS). All trains in Northern Ireland require a guard or second driver to be carried as they don't have a secure radio system.

Irish Rail has 6 trains in addition to enterprise which have this equipment but are not using it on this service.

On the Irish side there is continuous notification of the next signal (CAWS), automatic brake if the driver fails to acknowledge and a full positive id radio system. The radio is the secondary safety element if something goes wrong.


Put simply if Irish Rail used the trains with the safety equipment, everyone wins, the train would be significantly more comfortable for passengers, be appropriate for the distance, be faster and would ensure the highest level of safety achievable

[dowlingm]

Mark, could you please outline for us what role the second driver or guard plays north of the border which gets around the need for secure radio?

[Mark Gleeson]

The second person is there to protect the train by going back 1.25 miles and laying the detonator caps on the rail if anything untoward happens. Typically they find a lineside phone and call in from there and the signalman protects the train. Basically someone to secure the train and someone to get help

With a secure radio system with full coverage any train can contact the signalman directly, signalman can contact any train he wants directly using the trains ID code as the phone number. The IE system even allows text messages to be sent and can allow direct dial so you can ring a landline from a the cab (fabulously clever for early 1980's).

In Northern Ireland the guard is the conductor as well and closes the doors (even though the driver can). Safety rules requires that if any of the cab safety equipment fails a second 'qualified' person travels with the driver that applies pretty universally the world over

[dowlingm]

thanks Mark

[Inniskeen]

There seems to be a degree of confusion and mis-information here.

Unless the NIR radio system has changed radically in the last few years, it is not a secure system in the sense that the Irish Rail system is secure. The NIR system is open channel whereas on Irish Rail the transmission is heard only by the train carrying the id selected by the controlling signalman.

In any event the Irish Rail train will presumably have an onboard NIR radio unit while travelling between Dundalk and Newry. This was the standard arrangement for years as until the introduction of dedicated motive power for the Enterprise, no Irish Rail equipment had permanently installed NIR radio.

The purpose of the "second man" is to observe the lineside signals as a backup to the driver to compensate for the absence of AWS.

The Irish Rail train will also apparently carry a guard.

As far as I am aware there is no TPWS in Newry so the absence of TPWS on the 2900s operating to Newry is irrelevant.

The absence of AWS is adequately covered by the presence of a second driver.

Neither AWS nor CAWS will necessarily prevent a train passing a stop signal at danger. If a driver acknowledges the warning he remains in control and the system will not intervene to stop the train. There have been numerous accidents in the UK involving trains fitted with AWS, hence the development of TPWS which will apply the brakes if a train approaches a stop signal faster than allowed. TPWS applies only to signals displaying a stop indication and depending on the speed of an approaching train may not prevent a train passing a stop signal.

The Dundalk/Newry section is fully track circuited and in the event of "anything untoward" the opposite road can be immediately protected using track circuit operating bar.

There is no substantive safety risk in the operation of this service, more than adequate measures have been put in place to address the issues involved in using the 2900s.

[Inniskeen]

From a passenger standpoint the use of a 2900 set is anything but ideal, there should be an 0600 from Belfast using intercity quality stock offering a competitive journey time from Belfast, Lisburn, Lurgan, Portadown, Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda to Dublin. In the interim the new service offers Newry commuters the opportunity to arrive in Dublin before 0900, something which hasn't been possible since 1997.

[irishsaint]

....The Irish Rail train will also apparently carry a guard....


Translink have advised to me that this service will not carry a guard from Newry.

[Mark Gleeson]

Legally they must carry a guard or second driver with them while within Northern Ireland as all Northern Irish trains do. As there are no guards based in Dundalk it must be a second driver

The second person is the guard or conductor. If the guard is not present in the cab speed is limited to 40mph due lack of the required safety equipment

Newry station is fitted with AWS at the very least. CAWS cab equipment is being upgraded to enforce speed restrictions. Unlike AWS it does show the actual signal not green/caution. At Newry two trains will approach the station from opposite ends. Both will have to swap tracks at some point and therein is the risk of a conflict. NIR radio coverage is considered poor, and not suitable for safety critical communications and is to be replaced with GSM-R and that will remove the conductor requirement. See Downhill accident train was uncontactable due to a gap in coverage.

Fact is both NIR and IE have a fleet of trains which meet the safety requirements and would allow for a fast service to Dublin calling all stops to Gormonston, then non stop overtaking the trains ahead at Mosney and Skerries to deliver something close to an express time

[irishsaint]

The second person is the guard or conductor. If the guard is not present in the cab speed is limited to 40mph due lack of the required safety equipment


It is scheduled as a 25 minute trip to Dundalk now as apposed to the general 18 minute so presumably this means it is going to travel at the speed restriction.

On another note, Ken McKnigh today advised that this is a Newry to Dublin Connolly only service! Can anyone clarify?

[Mark Gleeson]

Ken McKnight isn't terribly clued in, it goes to Bray and Newry booking office can issue a ticket to Bray if asked though Ken will say they can't

The train is limited to 70mph and the schedule implies a 40mph speed limit until the border is crossed

Its Monday to Friday only no service on Saturday

[irishsaint]

Newry booking office can issue a ticket to Bray if asked though Ken will say they can't


I am aware of this, but they say they cant issue a season ticket (ie. weekly or monthly)?

[Mark Gleeson]

The agreed matrix beyond Dublin City only has single/returns

The Irish Rail taxsaver office will happily quote from all Enterprise stations to any Irish Rail station if asked.

Point - Point tickets are available from any rail station to another rail station (outside of the Short Hop Zone in Dublin) on the rail network. See details below of the most popular Point - Point ticket types. If your origin and destination is not listed, please email taxsaver@irishrail.ie to obtain your fare.

Newry - Connolly €3,180 €318.00
Portadown - Connolly €3,560.00 €356.00

[Jamie2k9]

It is scheduled as a 25 minute trip to Dundalk now as apposed to the general 18 minute

Will take an extra 23 mins between both stations, then with a 2 minute stop in Dundalk.

[irishsaint]

Newry - Connolly €3,180 €318.00


Newry to Connolly NIR £216 / €250(ish) considerably cheaper and as my employer does not entertain the taxsaver tickets for some bizarre reason, i would prefer to keep the €70ish difference in my pocket.
Issue still reamins that this 06:45 from Newry being heralded as a commuter service does not offer Newry passengers the same commuting enjoyments our counterparts some 15 miles away in Dundalk enjoy on this exact same service and provides us only with the same ticketing opportunities the Enterprise does, therefore is nothing more than an uncomfortable, extra stops intercity service to Dublin Connolly with the optional free onward transport to Tara and Pearse.

[Mark Gleeson]

As we have said from day 1 a dedicated intercity service from Belfast is what is needed with the correct train. The current setup is likely to fall apart for various reasons. Capacity is still very short in supply and numbers seem to be growing

Timetable wise if capacity on the route is exploited it would be possible to get an ICR train through to Connolly non stop from Gormanston or even Drogheda without impacting in any way elsewhere. Overtake at Mosney and Skerries and a train can start for Dublin from the northbound platform in Balbriggan

I am told that if the artificial supports were removed fares would increase on the NI side

[irishsaint]

I am told that if the artificial supports were removed fares would increase on the NI side

I dont suppose if you are aware of any future plans to remove these?

[Mark Gleeson]

In discussions with Irish Rail and Translink the strange currency differential was discussed and the reason given was if parity was to be introduced with would result in a hike on NI fares which was not considered acceptable

Clearly something needs to be done and soon.

Be sure to say hello to the senior Irish Rail manager onboard as well. The third in charge lives in Armagh and commutes daily...

[dowlingm]

Do Eurocratic rules allow State bodies to require their employees to live in the State and pay the taxes that keep their employer afloat? Presumably not. Oh well.

Anyone know what the on-time performance of this train was like this morning?

[Colm Moore]

Do Eurocratic rules allow State bodies to require their employees to live in the State and pay the taxes that keep their employer afloat? Presumably not. Oh well.There is a frontier worker regime in place. However, both here and the UK treat each other as home territory for income tax purposes.

With the marginal constituency improvement programme aka decentralisation programme, the government did try to insist that, eh sorry, force workers to live where they work, which is a bit outrageous to force on existing workers.

The Job Centre in Holyhead did a deal with Stena for unemployed people to commute on the fast ferry to work in Dún Laoghaire.

In any case, don't Irish Rail staff have 'free' company travel passes? I'm not sure about the cross-border element.

[irishsaint]

Be sure to say hello to the senior Irish Rail manager onboard as well. The third in charge lives in Armagh and commutes daily...

I believe he travels from Dundalk daily - is that the scottish fellow?

[Mark Gleeson]

That be him alright.

45 minute delay this morning, 25% refund applies

[irishsaint]

That be him alright.

he sits first plus on the 08:00 from dundalk daily.


45 minute delay this morning, 25% refund applies


I'm on a Monthly season ticket, will the reliabilty and punctuality of this be part of the Enterprise stats?

[Mark Gleeson]

Under EC law as a monthly holder on an international journey you should be entitled to some refund. Not quite delay repay but similar

Chapter 2 Article 17 EC 1371/2007

"Passengers who hold a travel pass or season ticket and who encounter recurrent delays or cancellations during its period of validity may request adequate compensation in accordance with the railway undertakings compensation arrangements. These arrangements shall state the criteria for determining delay and for the calculation of the compensation"

Inquiries are under way. If anyone wishes to take a test case against Irish Rail for compensation in reporting period 4 (which started on Monday I think) please let me know.