View Full Version : SERA report to retain Waterford Rosslare line
Mark Gleeson
05-08-2010, 11:35
Its a good read
http://www.sera.ie/media/MaintenanceofRosslareWaterfordLimerickRailCorridor .pdf
Rail Users Ireland contributed elements of the timetable to ensure the arrival time in Waterford was early enough to allow passengers time to get to work and to WIT
Timetable proposed is page 65
It doesn't look good for Irish Rail....
The proposal to include Wexford more prominently is a very good one. But the services that that would produce seem to be offputting. For people commuting from Wexford to areas on the South Wexford or to Waterford itself, they are faced with an annoying diversion southwards to Rosslare Europort, and then returning north to visit Rosslare Strand again before finally getting onto the branch line. Operating Rosslare Strand to Rosslare Europort as a shuttle or leaving it to the existing Dublin-Rosslare Europrt service to provide the connectcion seems to be a much better solution.
Mark Gleeson
05-08-2010, 14:13
Problem is you have to serve the whole route and the potential for ferry passengers. There are redevelopment plans for Rosslare harbour with some form of technology or industrial complex planned
Rosslare Strand could actually be skipped in one direction to minimise journey times.
Bear in mind the Rosslare Strand - Europort section is taken flat out at 70 mph. Its a massive difference compared to swaying along at 40mph
dowlingm
05-08-2010, 16:14
Rosslare Strand could actually be skipped in one direction to minimise journey timesThat's an interesting thought. Presumably the direction to skip would be the Wexford-Rosslare legs given that the acceleration/deceleration profiles would be less severe than heading onto/coming from the South Wexford.
Jamie2k9
05-08-2010, 16:40
Rosslare Europort timetable should be as follows:
Rosslare Europort - Waterford
06:15 (Stena Line UK arrival)
06:45 (Irish Ferries UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 07:15
11:00 & 11:30 (Irish Ferries French arrival)
13:00 (Stena Line UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 13:30
(Operate May - Sep as SL fast ferry does not operate during winter and IF French route move to evening times.
17:45 & 18:00 (Irish Ferries French arrival)
18:15 (Stena Line UK arrival)
18:45 (Irish Ferries UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 19:15
Waterford - Rosslare Europort
08:45 (Irish Ferries departure)
09:15 (Stena Line departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 08:00
15:00 (Stena Line UK departure)
15:30 & 16:00 (Irish Ferries French departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 14:15
(Operate May - Sep as SL fast ferry does not operate during winter and IF French route move to evening times.
20:45 (Irish Ferries departure)
21:15 (Stena Line departure)
21:30 & 21:45 (Irish Ferries French departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 19:45
No other trains need to serve Rosslare Europort.
Rosslare Europort timetable should be as follows:
Rosslare Europort - Waterford
06:15 (Stena Line UK arrival)
06:45 (Irish Ferries UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 07:15
11:00 & 11:30 (Irish Ferries French arrival)
13:00 (Stena Line UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 13:30
(Operate May - Sep as SL fast ferry does not operate during winter and IF French route move to evening times.
17:45 & 18:00 (Irish Ferries French arrival)
18:15 (Stena Line UK arrival)
18:45 (Irish Ferries UK arrival)
Train should depart Rosslare Europort at 19:15
Waterford - Rosslare Europort
08:45 (Irish Ferries departure)
09:15 (Stena Line departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 08:00
15:00 (Stena Line UK departure)
15:30 & 16:00 (Irish Ferries French departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 14:15
(Operate May - Sep as SL fast ferry does not operate during winter and IF French route move to evening times.
20:45 (Irish Ferries departure)
21:15 (Stena Line departure)
21:30 & 21:45 (Irish Ferries French departure)
Train should arrive Rosslare Europort at 19:45
No other trains need to serve Rosslare Europort.
Well that would be the ideal service pattern, but that frequencey requires more trains, staff and signalling than is available or is likely to ever be available on that line. The timetable in the report seems more reasonable.
dowlingm
05-08-2010, 17:06
A commitment of any scale should involve a partnership with the ferry companies, with them "guaranteeing" x number of boardings with them making a payment to IE if these don't show up. The thing is - do the ferry companies have any interest in such an arrangement, when there is a competing option in BE? Also, a Waterford-Rosslare service arriving 0800 would be obliged to cross the Rosslare-Waterford service at some point, and to my knowledge that is not possible anywhere between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford.
The main thing is to ensure that services that do run make good connections with other IE services before worrying about the ferry, but the 1720 ex Waterford is a good example since it misses connections at both ends.
Mark Gleeson
05-08-2010, 17:17
The question becomes, if you are running a fixed clockface service which meets business day needs in both Waterford and Wexford, Rosslare is always going to be a problem so why don't the ferry companies change there times to match.
The primary daily business is local commuting of some kind, ferry is secondary and the proposed timetable does provide many ferry connections. Moving the ferry times 15 minutes one way or the other could solve the outstanding issues.
For nearly 40 years there has been an arrival from Dublin in Rosslare at about 21:30-21:45 but the ferry misses it, you got to ask the ferry companies.
transportuser09
05-08-2010, 19:28
A commitment of any scale should involve a partnership with the ferry companies, with them "guaranteeing" x number of boardings with them making a payment to IE if these don't show up. The thing is - do the ferry companies have any interest in such an arrangement, when there is a competing option in BE? Also, a Waterford-Rosslare service arriving 0800 would be obliged to cross the Rosslare-Waterford service at some point, and to my knowledge that is not possible anywhere between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford.
The main thing is to ensure that services that do run make good connections with other IE services before worrying about the ferry, but the 1720 ex Waterford is a good example since it misses connections at both ends.
It is possible to cross a train at Wellingtonbridge still. I agree that the emphasis should be more on making connections with other trains and serving the local commuter before worrying about the ferry - if the other problems where solved then it might do fine without the ferry link. Although even better if it could be slotted in.
transportuser09
05-08-2010, 19:38
The proposal to include Wexford more prominently is a very good one. But the services that that would produce seem to be offputting. For people commuting from Wexford to areas on the South Wexford or to Waterford itself, they are faced with an annoying diversion southwards to Rosslare Europort, and then returning north to visit Rosslare Strand again before finally getting onto the branch line. Operating Rosslare Strand to Rosslare Europort as a shuttle or leaving it to the existing Dublin-Rosslare Europrt service to provide the connectcion seems to be a much better solution.
I'd agree with you on that. The diversion into Rosslare Europort is not going to attract Wexford passengers. Perhaps what would work better would be a situation whereby a connection was made with a Dublin-Rosslare line service, maybe similar to what there is at present, although whether or not having to change trains will encourage passengers is questionable.
Its a good read
http://www.sera.ie/media/MaintenanceofRosslareWaterfordLimerickRailCorridor .pdf
I see they have made comparisons with the UK.
Another good comparison might have been when BR tried to close the old Settle to Carlisle line back in 1987, based on the fact that it had become a sparsely used intercity line with all stations except one closed en route. It didn't close, stations along the line were reopened, and it would now be used as a mixture of commuters tourists, walkers (the Pennine Way and the 3 peaks pass close by) and people connecting withe the intercity lines at Leeds and Carlisle. Last time I looked there would have been about 7-8 trains daily, maybe a bit less on a Sunday.
Traincustomer
05-08-2010, 22:47
As a regular user of the ferry from Rosslare I appreciate that ferry connections cannot take precedence at the expense of commuter traffic.
Equally however rail-ferry connectivity should not be an optional "add-on"/"revenue top-up" at the whim of the mood of individual planners in a particular year.
It is perfectly possible to design an innovative and imaginative timetable which serves the key commuter traffic but also gives satisfactory connections to/from several sailings.
Having recently twice used the 1720 Waterford-Rosslare as part of a longer journey, it arrives a little early for the 2115 sailing but is nonetheless perfectly adequate.
Less pleasing though is the scenario every evening of the last train departing Europort as the Stena ship from Fishguard approaches its berth (ship berths at 1800; train departs at 1755).
Mark Gleeson
05-08-2010, 23:35
The SERA report timetable does a very good job within the constraints it has and does link with most ferries. You are restricted by having to cross trains at Wellingtonbridge its the only way to get a train every 2 hours.
I had a long discussion with the consultants about the timetable and the options and the change we suggested got a better morning arrival time in both Waterford (8:27 vs 8:50) and Wexford and got a better evening peak departure time from Waterford with the connection from the Dublin train.
I wouldn't focus too much on the Dublin - Rosslare - Ferry case, the volcano experience showed virtually zero take up even with the trains connecting while the morning train to Waterford was packed.
I certainly see a need for the ferry companies to show a small flexibility to move schedules a few minutes to make things work better
Jamie2k9
06-08-2010, 00:23
Is Wellingtonbridge the only part of the line where trains can meet??
As we know the add on fares from stenaline gives foot passengers the option of travelling on by train from rosslare to cork, mallow or Kilkenny omongst others for just fifteen euro a bargain, I'd perish to think the price of roosslare to cork using the normal fare structure.
But I could only imagine what the journey from rosslare to cork via Dublin is like. No thanks!
I had always thought that if there was a heuston Waterford rosslare service it would work better than a Connolly rosslare service on the basis that Dublin and dun
Laoghaire port would be a nearer or better option for most on the line, having a heuston departure for rosslare would benefit those south and west of the Dublin heuston area.
Traincustomer
06-08-2010, 00:32
Hi, between Rosslare and Waterford - Wellingtonbridge is the only intermediate station/point equipped with a passing loop; the station at Wellingtonbridge is an island platform.
Agreed in principle regarding Dublin-Rosslare route though there would be a benefit in Co. Wexford stations on the Dublin line having an adequate connection to/from the Fishguard ferry. Innovative all-in short break packages could be developed in conjunction with the Friday evening Cherbourg sailing also.
Mark Gleeson
06-08-2010, 08:57
Heuston - Waterford - Rosslare is currently out as a 3 car ICR is too long for some of the platforms in South Wexford, Bridgetown for one.
Given the weight of an ICR and its much heavier fuel consumption it would present a serious cost issue.
The focus should be Galway - Limerick - Waterford - Rosslare which is currently a disjoint mess
Case to shut down Rosslare-Waterford rail line 'flawed'
06/08/2010 - 15:21:26
A new report into the future of the Rosslare-Waterford rail line rubbishes Iarnród Éireann's case for shutting down the service, campaigners said today.
The South East Regional Authority (SERA) investigation finds fundamental flaws in rail bosses' proposals to scrap the underperforming line and claims the service could get back on track through extra stops and a more frequent timetable.
The authority also calls for the development of a community rail partnership as operated on a number of UK train services to create a locally-focused approach.
Mayor of Wexford Joe Ryan insisted there was still time for Iarnród Éireann to change its mind.
"The timing of this report is significant, coming as it does a month before the National Transport Authority (NTA) must decide on Irish Rail's application," he said.
"I think the report exposes and undermines many of the arguments that have been made in relation to closure.
"I am calling on Irish Rail to either withdraw their application to close from the NTA and sit down with the community and local authorities in the counties served by the line and see how they can provide a better service, or else provide the line for another operator who will work with the people of the region."
The Rosslare-Waterford section currently operates just one daily passenger service each way, with around 25 passengers daily.
The SERA's submission claims that if Wexford town was integrated into the service and its frequency increased, it would become dramatically more attractive to customers.
It also recommends an assessment of the potential for developing freight business along the line.
Cllr Ryan said community involvement could be key to the service's future.
"It would be up to communities and villages, small local projects and businesses - there's a lot of potential there," he added.
"It is clear that there exists both a market and a demand in the south east for a regional passenger rail service.
"If it closes it would mean isolation for a lot of people and inconvenience to a lot of workers who commute."
But a spokesman for Iarnród Éireann insisted the line was not viable.
"We've sustained heavy losses with the line for four years, we've tried different service offerings with a very low take-up and it's just not sustainable," he said.
"We've objectively looked at other alternatives such as increasing the level of services on the route which showed that it would result in even greater losses.
"We've put our submission forward to the NTA and we anticipate that they will be making a decision in the very near future."
Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2010/0806/ireland/case-to-shut-down-rosslare-waterford-rail-line-flawed-468292.html#ixzz0vpvBvds6
http://breakingnews.ie/archives/2010/0806/ireland/case-to-shut-down-rosslare-waterford-rail-line-flawed-468292.html
corktina
06-08-2010, 16:44
The question becomes, if you are running a fixed clockface service which meets business day needs in both Waterford and Wexford, Rosslare is always going to be a problem so why don't the ferry companies change there times to match.
The primary daily business is local commuting of some kind, ferry is secondary and the proposed timetable does provide many ferry connections. Moving the ferry times 15 minutes one way or the other could solve the outstanding issues.
For nearly 40 years there has been an arrival from Dublin in Rosslare at about 21:30-21:45 but the ferry misses it, you got to ask the ferry companies.
Oh what a good idea, just get the phases of the moon to fall into line too and get Aviva southwest trains to alter their timetable to suit and I think you are on to a winner! (oh and get the Customs and Immigration people both sides of the water to change their shifts also)
Seriously its a RAILWAY owned port.If they cannot (or deliberatley wont which is more likely) tailor their services to mesh with sailings then theres little hope for the service.
Colm Moore
06-08-2010, 17:48
Is Wellingtonbridge the only part of the line where trains can meet??To my knowledge, there are passing oppurtunities at
Rosslare Europort
Rosslare Strand
Wellingtonbridge
Belview Port
Waterford
However, what condition they are each in is another matter. there may have been a loop at Duncormick, but I think that station closed in the 1970s (its some way away from the village).
Oh what a good idea, just get the phases of the moon to fall into line too and get Aviva southwest trains to alter their timetable to suit and I think you are on to a winner! (oh and get the Customs and Immigration people both sides of the water to change their shifts also)
Seriously its a RAILWAY owned port.If they cannot (or deliberatley wont which is more likely) tailor their services to mesh with sailings then theres little hope for the service.
I found it ironic that at the same time as making these claims about the line ie turned down numerous freight opportunities. Why is this? Is it because of passengers? Surely not as they're not catering for peoples needs they only run one service a day on weekdays!
With regards to this on the if website
Quote:
As many rail departures are not considered to be connecting services by the train companies concerned, it is advisable to confirm the departure time prior to the purchase of a sail / rail ticket.
When I took a ferry at rosslare europort I we astonished that all the ie signage was in the ferryport more than the station the fact that there was a man in ie uniform welcoming me onto the ferry disturbed I'm not sure if these people know what business they are running anymore.
You will love This corktina 15 euro add on for footpassengers to travel from rosslare to cork with Irish rail, god knows how much it would be without that add-on but could you imagine how you would get home to cork :eek:
corktina
06-08-2010, 18:56
some bargain mileage there for €15!
Mark Gleeson
06-08-2010, 19:13
A train from Waterford cannot pass one going to Waterford at Rosslare Strand (not been possible since 1972)
Belview is freight only and is a siding
Rosslare Europort only has one platform (and only ever had one) but now does have a proper loop
Obviously in the future if investment is forthcoming extra loops can be provided or relocated to best meet timetable needs.
The ferry companies have a part to play, the train timetable has limitations and the timing of the daily commuter service is critical and it has to fit in with other services and the infrastructure limitations. If the proposed timetable is implemented it would be a very significant leap of faith, its not too much to expect that the ferry companies to show some flexibility in the crossing schedules talking +/- 15 minutes to make a difference.
Fair enough but given that ie own the port and stena line/Irish ferries would be occupants would it be so much to sit down, talk and come to an agreement over talks
I'm sure the ferry companies would have to arrange slots, paths etc
Mark Gleeson
06-08-2010, 20:19
What is somewhat strange is Stena actually made a submission to the NTA to retain the line.
Getting the ferry companies and indeed the Welsh side involved is very much on the agenda and is being addressed as I type this. I'm packing a suitcase right now for an expedition of sorts. There are a lot of things ongoing to try to sort things out.
corktina
06-08-2010, 20:46
A train from Waterford cannot pass one going to Waterford at Rosslare Strand (not been possible since 1972)
Belview is freight only and is a siding
Rosslare Europort only has one platform (and only ever had one) but now does have a proper loop
Obviously in the future if investment is forthcoming extra loops can be provided or relocated to best meet timetable needs.
The ferry companies have a part to play, the train timetable has limitations and the timing of the daily commuter service is critical and it has to fit in with other services and the infrastructure limitations. If the proposed timetable is implemented it would be a very significant leap of faith, its not too much to expect that the ferry companies to show some flexibility in the crossing schedules talking +/- 15 minutes to make a difference.
Do you not think there is a reason why the ferry companies sailings are more or less at the same time as each other +/- 15 mins or so? I believe it could be that those times are the optimum for sea conditions both this side and the other. Moving the sailings +/- 15 minutes would entail moving the connections at the other side to correspond. Would it not be a lot simpler if IE arranged for THEIR trains to connect with ferry times at THEIR port? IE have done thier level best IMHO to kill Rosslare and its associated lines. It's not their line its OURS and they must not be allowed to get away with it.
and thats the thing, if stena line have put in a submission to retain the line, they are not deliberately out there to put ie out.
i just find it strange that for ie who are owners of the port to not even promote their services at the port they own is bizarre. The only reference i saw to rosslare station at the port was a directional sign when the whole port was more or less covered in ie branding.
Mark Gleeson
06-08-2010, 21:18
To be fair Stena's services connect better than Irish Ferries already. But equally Stena isn't eager to sell Rail and Sail tickets via Rosslare despite the train to Waterford connecting, Thats something that must be addressed and its firmly Stena's department. I mentioned it to the consultants as did others.
To be fair Stena's services connect better than Irish Ferries already. But equally Stena isn't eager to sell Rail and Sail tickets via Rosslare despite the train to Waterford connecting, Thats something that must be addressed and its firmly Stena's department. I mentioned it to the consultants as did others.
thats not on, the only way its going to work is by advertising by both parties.
having said that http://www.stenaline.ie/ferry/rail-and-sail/fishguard/
Do you not think there is a reason why the ferry companies sailings are more or less at the same time as each other +/- 15 mins or so? I believe it could be that those times are the optimum for sea conditions both this side and the other. Moving the sailings +/- 15 minutes would entail moving the connections at the other side to correspond. Would it not be a lot simpler if IE arranged for THEIR trains to connect with ferry times at THEIR port? IE have done thier level best IMHO to kill Rosslare and its associated lines. It's not their line its OURS and they must not be allowed to get away with it.
100% agreement to the last part of your comment and I have thought that for years. Hopefully the Nta will make the correct decision just like the last time ie tried to close it.
The fact that stena line one of rosslares ferry companies made a submission is a good thing. Here's hoping!
Colm Moore
06-08-2010, 22:38
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/rail-line-closure-plans-flawed-2287597.htmlRail line closure plans 'flawed'
Friday August 06 2010
A new report into the future of the Rosslare-Waterford rail line rubbishes Iarnrod Eireann's case for shutting down the service, campaigners have said.
The South East Regional Authority (SERA) investigation found fundamental flaws in rail bosses' proposals to scrap the line and claims the service could get back on track through extra stops and a more frequent timetable.
The authority also calls for the development of a community rail partnership as operated on a number of UK train services to create a locally focused approach.
Mayor of Wexford Joe Ryan insisted there is still time for Iarnrod Eireann to change its mind. "The timing of this report is significant, coming as it does a month before the National Transport Authority (NTA) must decide on Irish Rail's application," he said.
"I think the report exposes and undermines many of the arguments that have been made in relation to closure. I am calling on Irish Rail to either withdraw their application to close from the NTA and sit down with the community and local authorities in the counties served by the line and see how they can provide a better service, or else provide the line for another operator who will work with the people of the region."
The Rosslare-Waterford section currently operates just one daily passenger service each way, with around 25 passengers daily.
The SERA's submission claims that if Wexford town was integrated into the service and its frequency increased, it would become dramatically more attractive to customers. It also recommends an assessment of the potential for developing freight business along the line.
Mr Ryan said community involvement could be key to the service's future. "It would be up to communities and villages, small local projects and businesses - there's a lot of potential there," he added.
"It is clear that there exists both a market and a demand in the south east for a regional passenger rail service. If it closes it would mean isolation for a lot of people and inconvenience to a lot of workers who commute."
But a spokesman for Iarnrod Eireann insisted the line was not viable. "We've sustained heavy losses with the line for four years, we've tried different service offerings with a very low take-up and it's just not sustainable," he said. "We've objectively looked at other alternatives such as increasing the level of services on the route which showed that it would result in even greater losses. We've put our submission forward to the NTA and we anticipate that they will be making a decision in the very near future."
Press Association
transportuser09
07-08-2010, 00:43
To my knowledge, there are passing oppurtunities at
Rosslare Europort
Rosslare Strand
Wellingtonbridge
Belview Port
Waterford
However, what condition they are each in is another matter. there may have been a loop at Duncormick, but I think that station closed in the 1970s (its some way away from the village).
Wellingtonbridge is only the location with a passing loop between Waterford and Rosslare strand. (Duncormick had it's loop removed many years back along with the other South Wexford stations other than Wellingtonbridge). As far as I know it is not possible to pass passenger services at Belview, though it may be possible to lock a freight train into the sidings there - this would not be suitable for a passenger train.
Thomas Ralph
07-08-2010, 10:17
When I took a ferry at rosslare europort I we astonished that all the ie signage was in the ferryport more than the station the fact that there was a man in ie uniform welcoming me onto the ferry disturbed I'm not sure if these people know what business they are running anymore.
Well it is an IÉ operation :rolleyes:
You will love This corktina 15 euro add on for footpassengers to travel from rosslare to cork with Irish rail, god knows how much it would be without that add-on but could you imagine how you would get home to cork :eek:
Adult single between Rosslare Europort and Cork or v/v is probably €50, return €58 within 5 days or €64 within 1 month. Going Rosslare to Cork via Waterford and Limerick Junction will take most of the day as you have a 4h10m layover in Waterford and a further 45 minutes in Limerick Junction.
Mark Gleeson
07-08-2010, 11:04
Iarnrod Eireann blames councils for hastening closure of railway
By Paul Melia
Saturday August 07 2010
A FRESH row broke out yesterday over the closure of a railway line after a report said the decision by Iarnrod Eireann had "serious shortcomings".
The South East Regional Authority (SERA) investigation found fundamental flaws in rail bosses' proposals to scrap the underperforming Rosslare-to-Waterford line.
It claims the service could get back on track through extra stops and a more frequent timetable.
But Iarnrod Eireann has in turn blamed local authorities for hastening the closure of the railway line because of poor planning decisions.
A spokesman claimed that if county councils had insisted that new housing developments be built close to the line, it could have attracted more customers which would have allowed it to remain open.
The new report yesterday said the line could be kept open and passenger numbers increased if more services were introduced, and local authorities and community groups worked to promote the service.
Last month Iarnrod Eireann announced that services would be suspended because of poor passenger numbers.
There is only one train from Rosslare to Waterford in the morning and one back in the evening. Just 25 people use the service each day, and the state rail operator said it could not afford to keep it open.
The National Transport Authority (NTA) will decide next month if the line can be closed. Iarnrod Eireann is paid an annual fee by the Government to provide a service, and the NTA must approve its closure.
"We made our submission to the NTA and we feel any objective assessment demonstrates that the line is unsustainable," said Iarnrod Eireann spokesman Barry Kenny.
Losses
"We have made assessments in relation to operating additional services, which showed they would generate greater losses. The local authorities did nothing in recent years to make this line sustainable. You could have had focused development around the line to improve its sustainability, but that didn't happen."
The need for the line was stressed in the report commissioned by SERA, which is made up of Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford City, Waterford County, and Wexford councils.
It said a "viable" rail service on the Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick line, and specifically on the Rosslare-Waterford section, would contribute to balanced regional development. It said the region's population was 460,000, and would increase to almost 600,000 by 2022.
"A decision to close passenger services on a rail line linking population centres would seriously be in conflict with the thrust of national and regional policy," it found. "The key question is therefore whether the line is capable of generating enough passenger traffic to make a material contribution to these policy objectives."
It said that Iarnrod Eireann's justification for closing the line had "serious shortcomings" and it would be "unsafe" for the line to close based on the company's views. "Low frequency services, especially with poor interconnections with other services, cannot be expected to attract large numbers of travellers."
It said freight traffic could be increased, and the line developed as a community rail partnership promoted by councils, community and rail user groups and local business.
- Paul Melia
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/iarnrod-eireann-blames-councils-for-hastening-closure-of-railway-2288090.html
Mark Gleeson
07-08-2010, 11:06
Anyone who has been to Bridgetown will know of the large housing estate which backs onto the station which was built in recent years.
Is foot passenger traffic that much?
I just travelled Calais Dover and back again as one. Only one of the ferry companys now accepts foot passengers and not on all the ferrys. The Boat I returned on had only 33 foot passengers despite being the first boat for over 2 hours that took them whereas there where over 200 cars, some buses and trucks and other boats had taking vehicles had crossed during that time.
This was a Friday evening (in August) and I imagine cross channel traffic is a lot heavier then Rosslare.
Does anyone know the average per sailing?
Interestingly while Dover seems to be well served with trains generally clockface timetabled the Calais timetable looks like something IE cobbled together.
The train stations in both ports are nowhere near the ferry terminals, instead both have a patchy bus service between them.
The Folkstone-Calais shuttles dont take foot passengers and a walk up train fare off-peak between Lille and Ashford is E200, so the channel tunnel is not stripping passengers away either.
Mark Gleeson
07-08-2010, 19:41
Rosslare average is 6 per ferry I'm told. It varies heavily with the seasons and the time of day.
It is most definitely the 3rd or indeed 4th on the traffic generators list for the route after Waterford, Wexford and Dublin (if there were connections!)
I think it will be difficult to promote the route as long as UK Rail Companies want to hide the super-cheap prices for RailSail tickets. (The question of why they have them at all if they don't want to promote them is for another day)
dowlingm
08-08-2010, 16:30
Could IE claim that a higher level of service would require miniCTC and thus use the "ooh scary" cost of this to deter a high frequency service?
Mark Gleeson
08-08-2010, 17:31
17.8 million is already allocated to the route to provide CTC and some other upgrades.
Alan French
08-08-2010, 20:54
The Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead route always has large numbers of foot passengers, and trains at Holyhead become very full. The problem at Rosslare is entirely due to poor connections - this is mentioned in the SERA report (para. 4.7): "The project team found it striking that, in their discussions with train operating companies and the UK Department for Transport, two people volunteered, with no prompting, that rail-ferry-rail on the Fishguard-Rosslare route is not attractive due to the lack of an integrated rail timetable at the Rosslare end."
So let's stop quoting existing low numbers of foot passengers, as if that were all that there were ever going to be.
corktina
09-08-2010, 06:16
The Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead route always has large numbers of foot passengers, and trains at Holyhead become very full. The problem at Rosslare is entirely due to poor connections - this is mentioned in the SERA report (para. 4.7): "The project team found it striking that, in their discussions with train operating companies and the UK Department for Transport, two people volunteered, with no prompting, that rail-ferry-rail on the Fishguard-Rosslare route is not attractive due to the lack of an integrated rail timetable at the Rosslare end."
So let's stop quoting existing low numbers of foot passengers, as if that were all that there were ever going to be.
Quite right. You cant put the cart before the horse. The timetable IMHO was doctored to deliberatley give poor connections in an attempt to kill the line. A private Operator coming in would immediately address this and you could expect the passenger total to start rising,.
While the timetable might not be too helpful to the passenger numbers, I feel the real reason for the decline in foot passengers is Low cost airlines. There are many ferry routes or ferry operators who don´t even bother to take foot passengers. A new timetable if it is to be successful should primarily target local commuters, I think applying the if you build it and they will come philosophy to ferry connections would doom the route to failure. Numbers may have been heavy during the ash cloud but public services should not be run on the basis of just in case.
transportuser09
09-08-2010, 17:07
While the timetable might not be too helpful to the passenger numbers, I feel the real reason for the decline in foot passengers is Low cost airlines. There are many ferry routes or ferry operators who don´t even bother to take foot passengers. A new timetable if it is to be successful should primarily target local commuters, I think applying the if you build it and they will come philosophy to ferry connections would doom the route to failure. Numbers may have been heavy during the ash cloud but public services should not be run on the basis of just in case.
Agreed, it's more important to cast the timetable to suit local commuter traffic (possibly into Wexford as well as Waterford) and have good connections with other rail services than the ferry connections. As you say low cost airlines have impacted on the ferry business. The ferry traffic would also partly be seasonal in terms of demand, whereas the commuter market is a year round one. Granted college traffic declines in the summer but the same could be said of any route. That said, if connections to ferries can be fitted in all well and good, but the main emphasis should be on serving local commuters.
corktina
09-08-2010, 19:01
I dont think that cheap airfares impact the ferry that much as their core business seems to be older people (who may not like flying) and families with lots of young children.
on the move
09-08-2010, 23:51
It might have taken an 11-hour round trip, but after getting to Waterford, I took the Waterford-Rosslare line today. While there was no overcrowding, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to see what exactly we'll be missing when the line is closed.
All it did for me, was confirm my belief that rail lines should not be closed anywhere, let alone in Ireland. Yes, it's not financially viable now, but few lines are. With buses setting new speed records in getting from A to B, outdoing each other to see who can run more frequently than the competition, on ever-improving roads, Irish Rail seriously needs to get a grip and put on competing services, before the whole network is not financially viable.
They have just a few hundred kilometres of track to service in one country, unlike their counterparts in Europe, on a daytime only schedule. Just how difficult can they possibly make it for people to use?
dowlingm
10-08-2010, 04:21
I think ensuring connections to/from Dublin will mean more in the long run than ferry connections, starting with the 1733 arrival into Waterford and the 1930 departure from Wexford.
A Dublin service arising from the Rosslare westbound is probably impractical in the short run but the 0820 arrival in Waterford could be sent via Lavistown at least as far as Carlow.
It also appears from my reading of the timetable that the 1030 arrival in Rosslare sits there until the 1255 departure - while a full rotation to Waterford is too tight even if Strand is skipped to Wexford, something could be contemplated like swapping 22Ks with Waterford giving South Wexford two more services a day, another connection to Connolly and a shot at the 1320 to Heuston too.
corktina
10-08-2010, 06:13
It might have taken an 11-hour round trip, but after getting to Waterford, I took the Waterford-Rosslare line today. While there was no overcrowding, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to see what exactly we'll be missing when the line is closed.
All it did for me, was confirm my belief that rail lines should not be closed anywhere, let alone in Ireland. Yes, it's not financially viable now, but few lines are. With buses setting new speed records in getting from A to B, outdoing each other to see who can run more frequently than the competition, on ever-improving roads, Irish Rail seriously needs to get a grip and put on competing services, before the whole network is not financially viable.
They have just a few hundred kilometres of track to service in one country, unlike their counterparts in Europe, on a daytime only schedule. Just how difficult can they possibly make it for people to use?
Ironic isnt it that the one route they especially want to close is the one that is much shorter than the road!
As Mr Dowling says, whats needed is the best possible TT making as many connections as possible in as many places as possible including if it can be done, the ferry sailings.When all thats in place, it then needs to be extensively advertised and promoted. (I dont think IE will be up for this and Id support privatisation of these services)
Quick note to IE management: these things are your JOB to do, not sit in some office somewhere underperforming.Go out there and prove me wrong!
Colm Moore
10-08-2010, 19:32
I dont think that cheap airfares impact the ferry that much as their core business seems to be older people (who may not like flying) and families with lots of young children.I think what was meant was since the 1980s.
Alan French
10-08-2010, 20:25
I've read most of the SERA report. One of the most encouraging things is the comparison with some British rural lines. Now, I have travelled on two of the four lines that they study; they are indeed very rural, full of stations serving small villages and even isolated roadside locations. Furthermore, with a few exceptions, the present stations are all the line ever had. Stops at the smaller stations are on request. With low frequencies, this has turned out to be preferable to having non-stop runs.
This provides a counter-argument to the view that the population of South Wexford is far too small. I had always wondered about providing better links with Wexford town. Bus Éireann has never provided services timed for commuters from the villages to Wexford, and the shoppers' buses only run on certain days of the week. An independent operator has operated a Wexford-Kilmore Quay route 2 or 3 times a day - does this still run? (In 1999 I actually took this bus from Kilmore Quay to Bridgetown and caught a connecting train to Rosslare Harbour.) The SERA report suggests that there is a lot of untapped potential here.
A few points about the timetable proposed on page 65: Do you notice that in serving local needs, it also makes fairly good ferry connections? The conflict of interest may have been exaggerated!
When you get down to the detail of integrating this service with the Rosslare-Dublin line, you will find that in some cases one leg of the rather roundabout route can be removed because there is a connection with a Dublin train at the right time. In the timetable consultation I have proposed one or two more trains on the Dublin line. Be conscious, at the same time, of the possible deterrent effect of having to change trains on a short overall journey (e.g. Wellington Bridge to Wexford).
It is also possible for some trains to do the circle the other way round. The 15.47 from Waterford, perhaps, should run to the Harbour first and then to Wexford, because it returns as the main commuters' train from Wexford. It is even possible that if the two double-cab railcars could be used, trains from Waterford could divide at Rosslare Strand, with the front going to the Harbour and the rear going to Wexford. At present that would be living dangerously, because IR have only two such railcars, so there would be no spare.
In keeping with the the principles I have advocated elsewhere, as many as possible of the trains shown should run as through services to Limerick Junction and beyond. However, there is a problem with trying to run a two-hourly clock-face service between Rosslare and Limerick Junction with decent connections at the Junction - the crossing loops are too few and in the wrong places (see my contribution to the timetable consultation, especially on 13-6-10 and 14-6-10). For the present, the best we can do is to make the Waterford-Limerick Junction service as good as possible in the circumstances, and continue trains to Rosslare whenever possible.
Don't let us be too put off by the roundabout journey from the villages to Wexford. Just because journey times are longer than driving, it doesn't mean that no one will use the trains. The secret is frequency; once this gets past the two-hourly mark (broadly), if the trains are comfortable and reliable, people will start to find that they meet quite a lot of travel needs, with some flexibility. And this is what the SERA report advocates.
Finally, I like the publicity idea - Barrow Bridge line, 7 trains daily!
Thomas J Stamp
10-08-2010, 23:51
the two newspaper reports quoted above show an interesting approach from IE. You would think that people pointing out to them how it could be made to run properly would get a hearing, but no, a dismissal. Well, a sort of one.
Firstly they just keep saying "well, we cant do it" and then they say its everyone else's fault. I mean, you would swear they get getting orders form somewhere else and they have to carry them out no matter what, wouldn't you?
dowlingm
11-08-2010, 00:47
I mean, you would swear they get getting orders form somewhere else and they have to carry them out no matter what, wouldn't you?Why do you think I call BK "The Information Minister"? :D
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/_39061593_min-ap-203body.jpg
corktina
14-08-2010, 09:54
Comical Barry!
CorkALVIN
07-01-2011, 14:49
I dont think that cheap airfares impact the ferry that much as their core business seems to be older people (who may not like flying) and families with lots of young children.
Add to those the large numbers of adventurous young backpackers from all corners of the world 'doing' Europe. Also, Cyclists, and when the dreaded volcanic ash or 'wrong kind of snow' strikes on the runways: everyone...
Interesting, BTW, what alan french mentioned about 'Trains at Holyhead becoming very full'. If you saw how so-called Arriva Trains North Wales is running down the service there, you would not be surprised: a route which used to boast regular Intercity trains to/ from Manchester and London and a decent regular slow service of 4-car loco hauled trains with guards van now has to make do with an irregular service of clapped-out 30 year old cramped two-car railcars with no decent luggage space at all, and only very rarely, a 4-car Virgin Train to/from London, all the trains often stop at every tiny local halt, even the night services which should really be for the ferry passengers only.
A few months ago, the 2-car train from Chester to Holyhead for the ferry was so crowded that the staff wouldnt allow me with my bicycle on board; only after a lot of angry complaining to the staff, after stressing that my ferry connection was essential, they put me and my bicycle on a TAXI to taek me the hundred or so miles to Holyhead; thanks to the very fast roads (The A55 is motorway standard) I arrived well before the struggling stopping train did. Believe you me, while we may complain about dreadfully slow or inadequate Rail connections on the Irish side, it can be every bit as bad over in Blighty, or even in other European countries where I have travelled, but I'd best save that for another day...:D
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