Submission to the NTA about Waterford-Rosslare? [Archive]

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sean

14-04-2010, 00:48

Hi everyone, I'm not on Facebook so I can't join the save the Rosslare Railway FB group, but I just read this post on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65375532&postcount=430
and am tempted to jump in and make an emailed submission to the NTA about the proposed closure.

I have read that the 25 people who use the railway each day, do so in spite of IEs best efforts. Obviously I wouldn't put such accusations in a submission, but it does lead me to conclude that the whole thing stinks to hell.

Therefore, I'm looking for advice on what sort of submission I should make? How I should word it etc. (bear in mind I'm not personally familiar with the line at all).

A few questions:

What, at a fundamental level, makes the line worth trying to save?
How is Irish Rails mal-administration of the line limiting its potential?
What opportunities and social benefits could a properly run line offer?
If the line is saved, what (realistically) should happen next?

Mark Gleeson

14-04-2010, 06:34

ThomasJ

14-04-2010, 11:10

Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference

so how about asking the people who actually own the line to get someone else to run the service ?

Mark Gleeson

14-04-2010, 11:32

The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

The accounts state
By virtue of Agreements dated 27 May 1898 and 14 February 1903, scheduled to the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Acts 1899 and 1903 respectively, the Company's undertaking on the English side is managed by Stena Line Ports Limited as regards Fishguard Harbour and by Stena Line Limited as regards the shipping service between Fishguard and Rosslare; the undertaking on the Irish side is managed by Iarnrod Eireann (Irish Rail). The managing companies are entitled to the receipts and responsible for any losses of the parts of the undertaking under their respective management, and such receipts and losses are not reflected in these accounts. Payment of dividends on the Preference Stock (other than that on which the right to dividend has been irrevocably waived by the holders thereof) is guaranteed by Coras Iompair Eireann and the British Railways Board.

The whole of the Company's ordinary capital is held by Stena Line Ports Limited and Iarnrod Eireann, from which companies the Directors are appointed. The emoluments of the Directors are paid by their respective appointing companies, and are not borne by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company. Because the Company is not trading, the main responsibility of the Directors is to maintain and service the Company's capital. These accounts relate to their discharge of that responsibility.

PLUMB LOCO

14-04-2010, 18:02

Mark Gleeson

14-04-2010, 23:32

There is a deadline since the NTA must reply to IE within a set number of weeks from there request, that was yesterday as that was 10 working days from the request IE made for a variance on the contract, as per section 4.3 of the contract NTA - IE

Sure that deadline can be waived if both parties agree, now do you honestly think IE will agree to drag it out? Regardless there is no legal obligation to even consider the submissions. The DoT naturally gave IE an exemption from EC1371/2007 which would have legally required RUI and certain others to be consulted under EU law (The nice people in the European Rail Agency in Brussels recognise us)

The F&RHRco is a shell company, the only point we have a shot at is if IE start to lift the line at which point they are impacting on the assets held by the company, IE have indicated over and over again there are no plans to lift or sell off

The Transport Act does not prohibit IE from withdrawing services, a line closure is a different issue. There is some historical precedents with the F&RHRco which support this view, full details are awaited. The NTA can of course refuse the variance on the contract.

That quote is from the accounts of 2003 I think

Mr Kennan is still an paid employee of Irish Rail, he has not been dismissed

Mark Gleeson

29-04-2010, 10:17

The NTA has requested further information from Irish Rail before making a decision.

Magpie

06-05-2010, 22:47

What type of information are they looking for?

Mark Gleeson

07-05-2010, 20:05

Magpie

09-05-2010, 23:49

Sadly we don't know exactly, it appears to relate to what the plan would be if the line was closed.

If IE cannot provide a reasonable alternative they can be refused permission to close. Given the unique nature of the route this is a strong possibilty

Then the plan of attack should be to point out that replacing a poorly run train service with a bus service is unacceptable.

Reasons:
1) Despite only one service each way at inconvienient times there is still a demand for a RAIL service (at least 25 passengers a day each way according to IE, I wouldn't mind seeing an independent survey either) IR said that it's used mainly by WIT students, well what about students that want to go back to Waterford on a Sunday-No service for them! So the strongest market share isn't even being properly catered for.

2)There are already numerous Bus services from Rosslare Europort to Waterford (5-6 a day in fact so no wonder the rail service is suffering!), adding more buses to the roads is unnecessary duplication of services, and diverting current ones from the N25 route to go through South Wexford adds on such a journey time that it degrades the bus commuters service. A lose lose situation all round.

Mark Gleeson

10-05-2010, 06:38

Thats already been done

Magpie

10-05-2010, 08:30

I know but with these things the message needs to be repeated. Look at the campaign to reverse the cutting of the southeast SAR, it was so robust that the dept came to the public saying the decision was reversed all in a very short time frame.

comcor

10-05-2010, 08:38

Mark Gleeson

10-05-2010, 09:45

The NTA is considering the position following submissions, there being a process set down in the contracts in place.

Irish Rail have been asked to provide additional information. Our submission http://www.railusers.ie/resources/nta_rosslare_waterford.php was made before the deadline and the NTA have confirmed receipt of.

We are working with interested parties on an alternative plan, history has shown that Irish Rail back down when a third party threatens to expose them for what they are. It doesn't involve the RPSI, its about a real service with real trains.

Traincustomer

10-05-2010, 15:17

It's also worth pointing out what happened to other bus services that replaced train services.

In the recent round of cuts, Bus Eireann got rid of a lot of them. In this part of the world, the Mallow-Fermoy-Dungarvan-Waterford service is set to be axed. I'm sure that applies elsewhere in the country as well.

Please correct me if there has been a subsequent happening but I travelled on the final Mallow-Dungarvan bus on Saturday 27th February. A new timetable with just one SuO journey on the Lismore - Waterford section (and no service during the week) was introduced the following day.

Incidentally this bus route was well used, the final journey was being used by no less than around 40 passengers in the course of its journey.

A rail feeder bus Fermoy/Mitchelstown to Mallow was contained in plans announced in recent years but hasn't materialised and is assumed dropped.

Neither Mallow nor Thurles railway stations are now served by bus as a result of the recent BÃ‰ cuts.

PLUMB LOCO

20-05-2010, 21:34

From the Facebook campaign tonight: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=367387502018

Joe Ryan Tomorrows papers will carry notices from Irish Rail setting out their intention to end services on the line on July 21st. It seems that the company has decided to ignore the process they opted for themselves in April with the NTA and is now seek closure under the 1958 Transport Act.
After yesterday's charade in Dail Eirean what's left of their credibility is shot to bits!

Mark Gleeson

20-05-2010, 22:53

They are following the exact legal process.

To completely withdraw services requires a notice under section 19 of the act of 1958. To reduce the number of services on a route requires the permission of the NTA, if you reduce to 0, then the formal section 19 must be applied also.

The NTA's presence bought a 6 weeks delay, had the NTA not been there the line would be closing this month.

Mark Gleeson

21-05-2010, 08:25

Its offical now http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=765

Seems the NTA hasn't said yes or no

dowlingm

23-05-2010, 01:37

Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.

Colm Moore

23-05-2010, 01:53

Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.

JamesK

23-05-2010, 09:59

Assuming that the closure goes ahead and that the proposed replacement bus services are put in place, it will be interesting to see whether at a later date, at least some of the latter are quietly withdrawn.

ccos

23-05-2010, 12:37

The only Green party politician who has responded to my letters protesting IEÂ´s announcement
Ciaran,

I was flabbergasted myself at the thought of the Wexford to Rosslare being axed.

I presume you refer to yesterdays announcement of the closure of the Waterford to Rosslare Harbour rail line.

Ciaran, the Green Party has 2 Ministers at the Cabinet table, neither of them with a Transport brief.

Just think of how much policy you could pass in a committee with those type of numbers.

The tragedy has been happening for many years when the electorate returned, election after election,

some of the most inept politicians this country has ever seen. The Green Party condemned decisions

made by these crooks and since taking office has punched well above their weight bringing some

of the most visionary planning, energy and building legislation this country has ever seen.

I personally have lobbied our own Ministers, Irish Rail and the NTA on the Waterford Line issue.

What have you done ?

Is mise,

Danny Forde
087 6884032

dowlingm

24-05-2010, 04:43

The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

I had the same thought, but that improvement for 370 customers should not have required the shutdown of the South Wexford.

What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.The NTA has been used by CIE in this matter, and CIE have bypassed them when they did not provide the expedited closure they wanted. If the NTA wants to be relevant into the future they should request that the Minister halt CIE's application under the 1958 Act and return to the NTA process.

The price of the withdrawal of the south Wexford and the transfer of that catchment to BE should be the use of that set for a Waterford inward commuter service either from Clonmel/Carrick-on-Suir (combined population not far short of Ennis/Sixmilebridge) or from Carlow, and sending that 2700 north again thereafter to Carlow to split the 3h20m gap between 0740 and 1100 northbound departures.

Mark Gleeson

24-05-2010, 09:03

Let us be clear here about the process

The board of CIE can close any line they wish if it is not economically viable, basically the entire network

The minister has no power to over rule the board

If any member of the CIE group reduces its service level on any route without first obtaining the authorisation of the NTA is liable to be hit with a significant fine

The public service grant is a block grant and is applied on a network basis, so there is no way of knowing how much is allocated to any one service.

Anyone who has read the closure notice carefully should by now have noticed that it can be legally challenged as it contains several glaring mistakes. Basically the line will remain open beyond July 21st as the notice will have to be reissued.

dowlingm

24-05-2010, 15:33

Does the Minister have the power to instruct NTA to withhold authorisation to terminate?

The fact that the NTA does not consider the fact that it is considering an authorisation to terminate "news" (http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news.html) to put on its website is something they should be told to correct, in my view. Certainly more important than "welcoming the opening of Clongriffen"

Mark Gleeson

24-05-2010, 15:43

In this new era of regulation, the minister has no power over the NTA.

The NTA are to there credit holding Irish Rail's little scheme up, I can see this going on for some time.

The NTA has no obligation to consult if a service change is proposed

dowlingm

24-05-2010, 16:02

Thanks for the info for the minister - in fairness regulators should be able to get on with it, just surprising when the pols actually give up power!

As for NTA's obligations re consultations, I'm sure that's true, it's just that it is in my view something they SHOULD do rather than putting up puff pieces about DART stations. Maybe running NTA can be Elderfield's next job once he's done shoeing the banks.

Colm Moore

24-05-2010, 16:05

Thanks for the info for the minister - in fairness regulators should be able to get on with it, just surprising when the pols actually give up power!No, they are giving up responsibility and hte resulting bad press. :)

Mark Gleeson

24-05-2010, 16:10

That would be an operational matter for the company.....

The proposed replacement service conflicts with section 3 of the NTA generic contract which applies to IE, BE and DB so they will have to rethink that

The notice issued by CIE to close the line is suspect and may be invalid though not for the reason most people guess at first glance, there are other statutory obligations on CIE. Yes they will be obliged to hand over to us a very large amount of data concerning the passenger breakdown since by law they must.

Mark Gleeson

25-05-2010, 16:08

NTA have just confirmed to me that they are still reviewing Irish Rail's application.

ccos

28-05-2010, 20:00

Wow these guys have cabinet seats but rail services get a speech in the seanad

I note your concerns with regard to the closure of the Rosslare to Waterford Railway.

I equally share your concerns and raised this issue in the Seanad in April.

Please find below an extract from my Seanad Speech which might be of interest to you.

"Keep Rosslare to Waterford Rail Service open - O Brolchain

The western rail corridor has completely exceeded expectations and is an enormous success.
However, no sooner has this service been put in place than the abolition of the service from Rosslare to Waterford has been proposed, which is an absolutely retrograde step. I urge the Ministers to think carefully about this and to consider the possibility of the timing of the service, as opposed to simply stating the service is not working and proposing to get rid of it. One must suit people and travel is all about what people want and about providing a service that is usable by them."

With kind regards,

Niall

Senator Niall O Brolchain
52 Lower Salthill, Galway
Ph Galway: 091-583643
Ph Dublin: 01 6183628
Email: niallob@oireachtas.ie

Alan French

30-05-2010, 14:02

If I remember right from reading the Transport Acts, the DÃ¡il has the right to overrule a closure. I think they did that with the Loughrea branch when closure was proposed in 1963. I know it closed 12 years later, but it made a difference at the time. If we could get the Greens to vote with the opposition, the closure could be voted out.

I think the closure of four stations between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire in 1960 was delayed because of the legal notice not having the right information, somewhat like what is happening now. All these stations were re-opened over the period 1972-1984.

Some years ago I asked for some legal opinion about closures. I was told that this kind of act tends to give wide powers of discretion. So it's difficult to catch them out on words like "if in the opinion of the Board the service is uneconomical and unlikely to be economical for a reasonable period". But it was suggested that the whole Act could be unconstitutional because it contravenes normal justice by not allowing the principle of audi alteram parte, hear the other side. Have you any ideas on this?

In general, because the damage caused by closures is spread over the economy rather than certain individuals suffering, there have been few cases chalenging the act. But the first question should be, not who can afford to take a case, but whether the case stands. Even a threat of a case could put pressure in the right places.

Colm Moore

11-06-2010, 04:25

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0611/1224272270339.htmlChamber 'furious' at rail line closure

The southeast chamber of commerce says it is â€œfuriousâ€ that IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann is â€œapparentlyâ€ regarding the announced closure of the Rosslare to Waterford line next month â€œas if it was an irrevocable factâ€.

On May 21st, IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann published notices in several news publications announcing July 21st as the closing date for the railway line.

Falling passenger numbers and the end of the sugar beet freight business in 2006 have been highlighted as reasons to close the route, as recommended in the recent McCarthy report.

A spokesman for the chamber has requested a meeting with the chief executive of IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann.

Colm Moore

11-06-2010, 04:34

http://www.southeastchambers.ie/page22.htmlOpen letter to Iarnrod Eireann from South East Chambers of Commerce

The Irish people (through the government) entrusted the railway system to you to manage on our behalf. Implicit in this trust was the expectation that you would organise and manage this highly valuable part of our national infrastructure in an efficient, professional and effective manner to transport passengers and goods all over Ireland. This obviously means having a rail network reaching out as far as possible all over the land.

You have failed us in many respects. You closed down railway lines with great enthusiasm during the middle of the last century, including the beloved Waterford/Tramore line which was actually showing a profit and the callous closure of which the local people are unforgiving. It was part of our life.

The Rosslare/Waterford line is also part of our life but is of even greater magnitude because of its strategic importance as part of the national rail network connecting all parts to the Europort at Rosslare. Is this to suffer a similar fate? If so, shame on you. Instead of exploiting the asset entrusted to you, you ran it down and practically ignored it. One train each way on weekdays only is not a proper service and even this paltry service was never promoted. We have one of your ads dated twelve years ago dealing with the rail services in County Wexford and it refers only to the Rosslare/Dublin line with never a mention of the Waterford route. The ignoring of this line goes back that far and way beyond.

Then in 2002 you decided you wanted to shut down the Waterford/Limerick Junction line and effectively leaving the large town of Clonmel and all South Tipperary without a railway connection. This was vetoed by government (when Seamus Brennan, RIP was Minister for Transport) and you were rightly sent packing and told to get on with running a rail service to connect the south east with Cork, Limerick, now Galway and many other places. You seem to be doing this with severe reluctance, again with no promotion and no Sunday or public holiday services whatsoever. The inevitable consequences of this lack of enthusiasm are that this part of the line is also lightly used and you have recently cut back the schedule from four round trips on weekdays to three (25% reduction). Is this another part of your covert plans for further closures?

This whole approach makes absolute nonsense at a time when such great strides are being made to modernise the railroad with vast amounts (of taxpayers money) being invested in reopening lines around Dublin, Cork and in the west â€“ lines that you abandoned years ago. Indeed, one of the justifications for reopening the Western Rail Corridor was to connect the north west with the south east, with Rosslare Harbour a particular target as it is the closest port to the European mainland and therefore the main access point by sea to Europe. Trains can only run where there are tracks and there is no sense in opening up tracks in one direction while closing them in another. It is a national system.

We totally reject your proposal to substitute busses. This is not acceptable. Road transport is subject to traffic delays and is therefore less reliable. Rail is the preferred mode of public transport. Look at the great success of the DART and LUAS and you will see how properly managed rail transport attracts a greater volume of passengers than busses. The substitute bus service now proposed requires very little investment which could mean very little by way of commitment and the proposed service could also be contracted after a period. Wear and tear on the roads from a HGV like a bus is immense while the rail lines would be lying idle. Environmentally, the proposals also fly in the face of Irelandâ€™s commitment to the Kyoto protocol to reduce carbon emissions. Greater use of rail should be the objective if we are to go anyway near our objectives as regards reducing carbon emissions. Rail is quite simply more green friendly.

What do we want? Let us explain.

We obviously want an end to this reckless foolishness. Instead, we want you to consult with the public and regional stakeholders (something you have never done in any meaningful way) and design a service with a minimum of three round trips every day. This service will have to connect with the ferries where we are informed there is a growth in foot passengers and also with inter-city trains, e.g. at Waterford. It will have to cater for the needs of the people of south Wexford who traditionally commute to Waterford. It should link the hub town of Wexford (pop. 20,000) with the gateway city of Waterford. It should also link closely with the Waterford/Limerick Junction portion of the line that serves Clonmel, the rest of South Tipperary and from Limerck Junction many other towns and cities.

The infrastructure needs to be upgraded to allow for quicker trains and shorter journeys, so as to compete successfully with road transport.

Management of the undertaking needs to be given to a qualified talented person based in the south east. Management from an ivory tower in Dublin has not worked. What is needed is an effective person who is empowered to develop and sustain the business and ideally we would see this person being recruited from outside the company.

Promotion of the line would involve creativity, e.g. the Rosslare Strand station is 100 yards from the wonderful beach and seaside specials could be run to bring passengers from South Tipperary to the sea for the day, while shopping trains, and theatre trains are just some other initiatives that proper management would undertake. There is no management of this nature at present.

We are serious about this and we will be shortly placing our case before the National Transport Authority and the Minister. We have consulted with the various local authorities and they also are opposed to your reprehensible proposed action.

Needless to say, we would be very happy to meet you to discuss productive ways of making full usage of this very valuable piece of infrastructure. The Chamber of Commerce movement represent the business community of the South East and we are adamant that this vital asset is not just saved from closure but is put to optimum use.

South East Chambers Access Task Force
(info@southeastchambers.ie)
24 May 2010

South East Chambers
Press Release
30th April 2010

â€œStand Up and Fightâ€ for the South East

Sporting legend Mick Galwey was in New Ross last week to support the launch of Access: South East, a major new initiative by South East Chambers aimed at improving access to vital services and infrastructure for business in the South East Region.

Mick had some sound advice for everyone in the South East: â€œOne thing I have learned from my years on and off the pitch is that you have to work together as a team if you want to win. When everyone on the team is pulling together, anything is possible.â€

Access: South East project leader and director of Waterford Chamber, Orm Kenny, explained the background to the initiative: â€œThe South East is a great place to live, work and do business and we have seen some significant investment in the region in recent years. The new M9 will shortly connect Kilkenny, Carlow and Waterford with Dublin, some rail services to and from the region have improved and Waterford Airport is now easily accessible by road for passengers throughout the South East following the completion of the N25 bypass and the Waterford outer ring road. However, there are other areas where the region has been very poorly served: The recent decision by CIE to discontinue rail services between Wexford, Rosslare and Waterford is one current example of the South East being overlooked by decision makers in Dublin. We urgently need to identify and pursue a new set of priorities for Access in the South East and work together as a Region to ensure that all our communities benefit from the right strategic and targeted investment in the years to come.â€

The first phase of Access: South East is an online survey managed by Kilkenny based market research firm Market Dynamics, which will be issued on May 11th to every member of every Chamber of Commerce across the South East. Commenting on the survey, Kenny continued: â€œI am delighted that Fiona Macrae of Market Dynamics has kindly donated her companyâ€™s time and expertise to manage the online survey. Their involvement means that people can have absolute confidence in the confidentiality and professionalism with which the survey will be managed.â€

Tony Hennebry of Green Biofuels Ireland, said â€œWe are delighted to be part of this important initiative and I would call on all Chamber members in the South East to take part in the survey and show the country that the South East is a force to be reckoned with.â€ Derek Oâ€™Connor of Bam Building Ltd. commented â€œIt is vitally important that we work together as a region so that the South East can fulfil its potential. Bam Building Ltd. is very pleased to support the Access: South East project through which we can all help make this happen.â€

South East Chambers is an umbrella organisation representing the business community in the South East and is made up of individual Chambers in Carlow, Clonmel, Dungarvan, Enniscorthy, Gorey, Kilkenny, New Ross, Waterford and Wexford. Eric Barron, Chairman of South East Chambers, commented: â€œIn these challenging times, it has never been more important to promote the development of the highest quality infrastructure throughout our Region so that everyone can get access to key services, customers and suppliers. South East Chambers is calling on every Chamber member in the region to get behind this project, complete the survey, and help ensure that the South East has a strong, united voice that cannot be ignored by central government.â€

Ends

Mark Gleeson

14-06-2010, 08:55

As I posted at the outset the line will not be closing as soon as Irish Rail think

The NTA have not made a decision and will not make a decision for some time pending a report commissioned studying the route

The various legal avenues being considered could independent of the NTA add several months before a closure could be legally effected.

Colm Moore

05-07-2010, 04:25

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0705/1224274035308.htmlRosslare-Waterford rail service to end
MICHAEL PARSONS

IRISH RAIL has announced that it will â€œsuspendâ€ its Rosslare to Waterford service on July 21st. Local people believe it will never actually resume.
The State-owned subsidiary of CIÃ‰ has blamed a steep fall in passenger numbers and said the line is no longer economically viable.

The service has been operating just once daily â€“ in each direction â€“ with no Sunday service.

A morning train departs from Rosslare Europort at 7am and wends through south Co Wexford with stops at the villages of Bridgetown, Wellington Bridge, Ballycullane and Campile before arriving at Waterfordâ€™s Plunkett Station at 8.20am. The return journey leaves Waterford at 5.20pm and terminates at 6.35pm.

Passengers about to board the train at Waterford last Thursday evening had mixed views about the lineâ€™s closure.

Richard Miskella (74) said â€œitâ€™s a real pity but if itâ€™s not paying they canâ€™t run a trainâ€ and heâ€™d be â€œhappy enough if itâ€™s replaced with a good bus serviceâ€.

Barry Kehoe (44) lives in Co Westmeath but was holidaying in his native Wexford and was taking his children, Amy (4) and OisÃ*n (18 months), to Wellington Bridge where they were being collected by car. He had heard about the lineâ€™s closure and was embarking on the short journey â€œfor nostalgic reasonsâ€.

As the 100-seat train pulled away from the platform, there were only 17 passengers on board.

According to Irish Rail, the service has â€œexperienced very low patronage for many yearsâ€ with the train carrying on average â€œapproximately 25 passengersâ€.

The company also pointed out that the sugar beet freight business, â€œwhich sustained the viability of the lineâ€, ceased in 2006 following the demise of sugar manufacturing in Ireland.

The line also suffered from a decline in the number of foot passengers arriving on ferries at Rosslare.

The service cost â‚¬4 million a year to operate but generated only about â‚¬40,000 from ticket sales. The closure will result in some 30 job losses â€“ among them keepers who operated a network of manned crossings â€“ but there will be â€œno forced redundanciesâ€. Meanwhile, the company plans to launch a replacement bus service on the route to be operated by Bus Ã‰ireann which will terminate at Waterford Institute of Technology â€“ to the advantage of students who had been using the rail service but had then to make their own way to the campus some two miles away.

Irish Rail officials said that new legislation meant that the tracks on the Rosslare-Waterford line â€œcanâ€™t be torn up for at least 10 yearsâ€ in case there is a change of heart.

The company would also â€œexplore the possibility of establishing a heritage railway on the route with interested parties, which would be of benefit to tourism in the areaâ€.

Officially, the rail service cannot be halted until Irish Rail receives formal approval from the National Transport Authority, a new body established last year by the Minister for Transport with â€œresponsibility for securing the provision of public passenger land transport servicesâ€.

A spokeswoman said the authority would make its decision after considering correspondence from interested parties â€“ despite there being â€œno provision for public consultation under the 2009 Public Transport Actâ€. The authority is expecting to receive a submission â€œby July 16thâ€ from the South-East Regional Authority.

This Clonmel-based organisation, which describes itself â€œas a regional tier of government in Irelandâ€ and â€œto the forefront in identifying, articulating and addressing the deficiencies, development needs and investment priorities of the regionâ€ has hired â€œa consortium of consultantsâ€ including â€œone from the UKâ€ to prepare its submission. A spokesman said the consultants would be paid â‚¬26,000 which represented â€œgood valueâ€.

A request from The Irish Times to discuss the closure of the railway with the Green Partyâ€™s Minister of State with special responsibility for sustainable transport was declined. His office said: â€œMinister CiarÃ¡n Cuffe is not available for interview on the issue and he would like to give the following comment: â€˜The proposed suspension of services on the Rosslare-Waterford rail line is an operational matter for CIÃ‰ in conjunction with the National Transport Authorityâ€™.â€

BACK ON TRACK MIDLETON TO CORK REOPENED LAST YEAR: LAST JULY Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey presided over the reopening of the Midleton to Cork railway line which had been closed 46 years earlier.

The restoration of the service, originally launched in the mid- 19th century, cost â‚¬75 million and was funded by the Governmentâ€™s Transport 21 initiative.

The Minister told the assembled guests that â€œfor over a century, Midleton station served the needs of the people of the areaâ€ but that â€œin time, like so many other local stations, it fell victim to economic change and, perhaps also, to what was then our growing national infatuation with the private carâ€.

However, â€œour economy began to grow, and we began to appreciate the need for greater public transport, both to improve the competitiveness of Ireland in attracting investment and to protect and preserve our environmentâ€.

Mark Gleeson

07-07-2010, 09:41

Madam, â€“ The decision by Irish Rail to suspend services between Waterford City and Rosslare (â€œRosslare-Waterford rail service to endâ€, Home News, July 5th) comes after the service has been systematically run down over many years.

The cost of running the line was quoted in the article as â‚¬4 million a year. I have a letter dated May 19th, 2020, signed by Richard Fearn, chief executive of Irish Rail, stating the cost of running the line is â‚¬1.9 million.

The service no longer runs at times that coincide with ferry services, and the timetable does not meet the needs of any potential customers â€“ workers, students, shoppers, or people attending Waterford Regional Hospital for medical services. Nor are there through-services to Limerick or connections with services to Dublin at either Waterford or Rosslare.

We believe that there is huge potential for this railway to provide a much-needed service to the people of south Wexford, and that the way to do this is for Irish Rail to be motivated to transform the way it operates the line so that it meets the needs of the public, and operates at the time when they wish to travel.

A study conducted by Irish Rail and separate independent surveys and interviews throughout south Wexford indicate that an increase from the current single train each way, to three trains would result in a sixfold increase in passenger numbers. The subsidy to provide this service being virtually the same as the much-hyped Western Rail Corridor.

In addition to local needs, the line is also a strategic link between the west of Ireland and Rosslare Ferryport. We believe there is an obvious opportunity to market the line as a tourism resource to bring in visitors from the UK and Europe, and enhance the economic benefits to the south east. â€“ Yours, etc,

TANYA FENELON,
Chair, Save the Railway Group,
Bridgetown South,
Co Wexford.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224274181657

Mark Gleeson

07-07-2010, 10:42

Needless to say the usual fun and games are afoot in Irish Rail

The revised proposal which Irish Rail studied and rejected as for 3 trains each way. This would result in approx 250 journeys per day. Roughly 70,000 per annum. The Wexford study suggests closer to 300 per day. Both studies appear to ignore the potential if small of ferry traffic which could add 10%

Operating loss would fall from approx 2.4 million to 1.9 million (this the figure from the Fearn-Wexford letter)

karlr42

07-07-2010, 11:23

Shocking when you consider that phase two of the WRC is projected to carry 65,000 passengers a year(I believe) after a capital investment to rebuild the line, yet a much smaller investment on this existing line would yield similar passenger numbers.

Mark Gleeson

07-07-2010, 12:58

We are working with the crew in Wexford, I wrote part of that letter in fact.

But its the same old story, a poor service generates little business. It will actually save Irish Rail money to run more trains!

Capital outlay of say 15 million would replace all the signalling half a dozen gates automated, the worst of the track replaced and stations cleaned up. This would substantially reduce costs further, easily another 300,000 euro off

Charlie Hungerford

07-07-2010, 17:41

I presume that you have made the NTA aware of the inconsistent figures IE are throwing around?

The line's running cost magically became â‚¬4 million over the past week - well up from the original figure of â‚¬2.5 million.

And an interview has surfaced from 2005 where Dick Fearn was talking about the line carrying 70 passengers per day. Still not impressive but he should have to explain to the NTA how he managed to lose over 50% of the service's passengers over the course of five years.

Mark Gleeson

13-07-2010, 10:17

The actual running cost is 1.9 million per annum, of which 55% is pure staff cost. A significant service level increase would be offset in full by increased revenue as much of the cost base is fixed.

The line will NOT CLOSE on July 21st, that is for sure. From our discussions with various groups and consultants we foresee services continuing into 2011 and beyond.

That said the board of CIE have questions to answer as to the process followed and the underhand media operation which pushed out false numbers to sway public opinion.

Charlie Hungerford

13-07-2010, 13:30

The actual running cost is 1.9 million per annum, of which 55% is pure staff cost. A significant service level increase would be offset in full by increased revenue as much of the cost base is fixed.

It seems that, if that is the case, additional services would make a significant inroad into the losses. Indeed, converting the level crossings to automatic operation would significantly reduce the running costs too based on those figures.

My real concern is whether the NTA will stand up to IE given as the Tribune revealed months ago, the closure is essentially a political decision sanctioned at some unofficial level by the Minister for Transport. May I suggest that a well-worded FOI to the Department of Transport might make interesting reading?

Mark Gleeson

15-07-2010, 09:12

Waterford-Rosslare service update, 15th July

As customers will know, IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann has applied to the National Transport Authority to suspend Rosslare-Waterford rail services on 21st July, with an alternative bus service to be provide by Bus Ã‰ireann from 22nd July onwards.

No decision has yet been made by the National Transport Authority in relation to this application.

Therefore, the existing rail schedule will continue beyond 21st July until further notice. We will advise customers as soon as further information is available.

Curiously a letter was handed in to the CIE group secretary on Tuesday seeking withdrawal of the notice citing several flaws and omissions in the text

Services will continue until at least September 3rd, though probably until September 30th

Mark Gleeson

15-07-2010, 11:05

Just to be clear

1. The fact the NTA are taking there time and are considering submissions forced this change

2. The law requires 8 weeks notice of the intention to close, its open ended. Irish Rail can close any day from July 21st onwards

3. The legality of the notice issued on May 21st is in some doubt and has been subject to legal review by several parties and formal complaints by others including RUI

4. For a legal point of view Irish Rail can claim the legal right to close the line on July 21st and pay the resultant penalty from the NTA, however this would leave Irish Rail management in breech of the CIE code of ethics ensure one's actions comply with relevant contractual obligations

The future of regional rail routes in Ireland hangs on the outcome of the NTA decision

lika

16-07-2010, 16:33

Mark Hennessy

18-07-2010, 13:22

Looks like IE are going to act unilaterally before the NTA have decided....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0718/rail.html

So if they can get away with this, the purpose of another quango, the NTA is what exactly?

Mark Gleeson

18-07-2010, 14:48

That was recorded last Saturday the 10th, usual lazy journalism and editing.

Services will continue for some time. Notices stating this are posted at the stations, was in Bridgetown yesterday amongst others.

ThomasJ

18-07-2010, 15:06

Just to be clear

1. The fact the NTA are taking there time and are considering submissions forced this change

2. The law requires 8 weeks notice of the intention to close, its open ended. Irish Rail can close any day from July 21st onwards

3. The legality of the notice issued on May 21st is in some doubt and has been subject to legal review by several parties and formal complaints by others including RUI

4. For a legal point of view Irish Rail can claim the legal right to close the line on July 21st and pay the resultant penalty from the NTA, however this would leave Irish Rail management in breech of the CIE code of ethics

The future of regional rail routes in Ireland hangs on the outcome of the NTA decision

Surely, given there are issuess with the original notice, the 8 week notice is not valid is it?

Mark Gleeson

18-07-2010, 15:12

I would expect to see a new notice.

The line remains open, in some respects the longer it remains open the more likely it will be retained.

Mark Gleeson

18-07-2010, 17:12

RTE changed the report for the 6-1 to reflect the truth

Colm Moore

18-07-2010, 18:36

RTE changed the report for the 6-1 to reflect the truth

Website still says this. Were you talking to someone in RTÃ‰?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0718/rail.htmlWaterford-Rosslare line set to close
Sunday, 18 July 2010 13:59

IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann has said it is unlikely that the Waterford-Rosslare rail line will ever reopen after services are officially suspended next Wednesday.

The company says the line, which has existed for more than 100 years, is no longer economically viable.

Campaigners say thousands of people have signed petitions to keep the line open and more people would use it if more trains were scheduled on the service.
Advertisement

There is only one train from Rosslare to Waterford in the morning and one back in the evening.

Jamie2k9

19-07-2010, 11:44

The Waterford - Rosslare will remain open until further notice.

General News
UPDATE Waterford to Rosslare rail line services by Corporate Communications

Waterford-Rosslare service update, 15th July

As customers will know, IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann has applied to the National Transport Authority to suspend Rosslare-Waterford rail services on 21st July, with an alternative bus service to be provide by Bus Ã‰ireann from 22nd July onwards.

No decision has yet been made by the National Transport Authority in relation to this application.

Therefore, the existing rail schedule will continue beyond 21st July until further notice. We will advise customers as soon as further information is available.

on the move

20-07-2010, 02:22

After all the bad news about train travel in Ireland recently, I'm sure we're all devastated to read the above. :D

What IE simply don't get, and never have got, is the idea of putting the passenger first. In fact, in this country, the paying passenger comes last when travelling by rail. For decades, the advantage enjoyed by Irish Rail over other forms of transport here was it's speed. Long distance, short distance, rush hour or slack hour, you could rely on it, plan your journey time around it, and spend more time at home, than using the bus.

Twice a year since 2006, I've gone to LOI games in Galway, and used the Friday evening express service which would take you from Heuston to Galway in just 140 minutes. This year, the departure time was brought forward, and 2 more stops added, equating to a 20 minute delay on the route, despite more powerful engines and better quality trains. By comparison, the bus route from Dublin to Galway is faster, cheaper, and more frequent. For the first time going to Galway yesterday, I went there by plane instead of using the train, because of the above reasons.

When the Malahide Viaduct collapsed last year, Irish Rail needed the bus to help them run a Northern Commuter Service. When the bridge was ready again, the business failed to pick up, as people preferred using the bus. Why? Cheaper, faster, more frequent. Currently Bus Eireann run 20-odd daily services between Rosslare Europort and Dublin. The service is available, and it is used. IR run a handful of services in both directions each day, the last one leaves both destinations in evening rush hour, and so people desert the service in favour of the bus. After decades without a service, Limerick and Galway are once again connected by rail. But the road network can do the journey in half the time at a fraction of the price. You don't get those passengers back without a few changes.

The way forward is to give your customers what they want, roll the trains out 24/7, run direct inter city services between the major cities in order to compete with other modes of transport. Cut fares at stations, away from the "book online" method. The market is there to use rail transport, but not the services. Vast swathes of the country are served by a single rail line, further reducing frequency and quality of service. As seen by the viaduct collapse, all it takes is one incident to paralyse the network. Overnight trains are an idea completely alien to IR, despite it been standard practice across Europe.

There is one service between Waterford and Rosslare every day, and obviously it isn't going to attract business, because of how it's run. The closure of a rail line is never a happy event, however the Waterford-Rosslare line's imminent demise is not the fault of passengers, but due to Irish Rail's complete inflexibility with it's schedule, and abject failure to react to market forces in the region over a considerable period of time.
Put your passenger first, not last.

Mark Gleeson

20-07-2010, 10:12

Plan to close Rosslare-Waterford railway labelled 'reckless foolishness'
MICHAEL PARSONS

BUSINESS LEADERS in the southeast have described as â€œreckless foolishnessâ€ the planned closure of the Rosslare to Waterford railway line, linking two of the countryâ€™s principal ports.

The service, which had been due to close permanently from tomorrow, has received a temporary reprieve as various State bodies argue over its future.

IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann has confirmed that its plan to â€œsuspendâ€ trains from July 21st and launch a replacement Bus Ã‰ireann service will not be implemented as scheduled. The closure of the line cannot proceed without the approval of the National Transport Authority, which is not now expected to announce its decision until â€œat leastâ€ September.

The railway line has been operating since 1906, but has suffered a decline in use in recent years and now offers just one train a day in each direction, with no Sunday service. IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann says the line is no longer economically viable, and attracts a daily average of only 25 passengers.

But South East Chambers, an â€œumbrella bodyâ€ representing chambers of commerce in Carlow, Clonmel, Dungarvan, Enniscorthy, Gorey, Kilkenny, New Ross, Waterford and Wexford have said the planned closure was â€œnot acceptableâ€, and the decision had been made in â€œan ivory tower in Dublinâ€.

In an â€œopen letterâ€, the chambers accused IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann of running down and ignoring the Rosslare-Waterford line, and said a replacement bus service would â€œfly in the face of Irelandâ€™s commitment to the Kyoto protocol to reduce carbon emissionsâ€.

They pointed out â€œthe great success of the Dart and Luasâ€ proved that â€œproperly managed rail transport attracts a greater volume of passengers than busesâ€.

The letter also berated IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann for having â€œclosed down railway lines with great enthusiasmâ€, including the â€œbeloved Waterford to Tramore line, which was actually showing a profitâ€.

Tanya Fenelon, chair of Save the Railway Group, said the line had a future if IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireann carried more freight to Belview (Waterford) and Rosslare ports; improved the timetable to connect with other lines, and expanded the service by running three trains a day, instead of just one.

She contrasted poor service in Rosslare with that â€œon the Welsh side at Fishguard, where dedicated â€˜boat trainsâ€™ link immediately with London-bound high-speed trains at Swansea and Cardiffâ€.

Ms Fenelon said â€œduring the recent airspace closure, the Waterford-Rosslare train was standing room only â€“ testimony to the lineâ€™s strategic economic importance as an integral part of this Stateâ€™s southern sea-rail access corridorâ€.

Opposing replacement buses, she claimed â€œthe train is a much cheaper alternative at present than travelling by busâ€, explaining â€œthe Bus Ã‰ireann fare is nearly twice as expensive as the train: an adult return ticket from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford is â‚¬20.50 while a rail ticket is â‚¬10.50â€.

On IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireannâ€™s claim that the line is losing money, she said last Saturday evening she â€œcounted 43 passengers boarding at Waterfordâ€ but â€œthere was no ticket checker on boardâ€.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0720/1224275074086.html

I was one of the 43 on Saturday. A passenger boarded at Ballycullane. Three bikes onboard as well. 2 through passengers for the UK. The count was taken by two people. Its going to get very embarrassing for Irish Rail as this article is only the start.

finnyus

20-07-2010, 10:58

â€œthere was no ticket checker on boardâ€.

That is the same on a lot of lines, I would imagine. In the past number of weeks (and since it has opened) The Glounthaune - Midleton line has no ticket checker on it (bar the handful of times the RPU are out in force). People know this, therefore don't buy a ticket = no revenue from the line = uneconomical.

jacko

20-07-2010, 15:27

That is the same on a lot of lines, I would imagine. In the past number of weeks (and since it has opened) The Glounthaune - Midleton line has no ticket checker on it (bar the handful of times the RPU are out in force). People know this, therefore don't buy a ticket = no revenue from the line = uneconomical.

RPU guys becoming more visible on Cobh/Cork but I wonder how much is being collected in fines.

More in their line to challenge some of the "children" to prove their age - drinking and smoking before getting on train and then demanding a child ticket

Charlie Hungerford

20-07-2010, 20:15

That is the same on a lot of lines, I would imagine. In the past number of weeks (and since it has opened) The Glounthaune - Midleton line has no ticket checker on it (bar the handful of times the RPU are out in force). People know this, therefore don't buy a ticket = no revenue from the line = uneconomical.

I suspect that the point is that the stations on the line are largely unmanned and the lack of a ticket collector suggests that IE aren't too bothered about even attempting to maximise revenue on the line.

comcor

20-07-2010, 21:13

Colm Moore

21-07-2010, 22:24

Not wanting to drag this thread off topic, but seeing that 90% of journeys on that line are too or from Cork, why not just have entry and exit validation in Cork. In fact, tickets are usually checked while boarding.
There isn't a lot of space at the top pf platforms 1, 2 & 3 for validators and as a lot of trains terminate there, there would be a delay in clearing the platforms => miss the bus connection. You would also beed to have some way of checking the few through (Cobh-Mallow) services that use platforms 4 or 5.

Mark Gleeson

26-07-2010, 20:19

Waterford-Rosslare rail line in stay of execution
By Dermot Keyes. Published on Friday, July 23rd, 2010 at 10:00 am

Cyril Newsome of the Save The Rail (STR) group, who was unable to join his colleagues in a protest at Waterford Bus Station last Saturday due to the absence of wheelchair access on the Bus Ã‰ireann service from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford.

The apparently doomed Waterford to Rosslare railway line has been given a stay of execution, to the delight of the Save The Rail (STR) group which is lobbying for its retention.

The National Transport Authority (NTA), the ultimate arbiter with respect to the lineâ€™s future, has yet to adjudicate on IarnrÃ³d Ã‰ireannâ€™s (IE) application to end the service between the Europort and the city.

On May 21st, IE stated its intention to close the line tomorrow (July 21st) but the NTAâ€™s deliberations means that the line stays open â€“ for now.

â€œTherefore, the existing rail schedule will continue beyond July 21st until further notice,â€ reads a statement on the IE website â€œWe will advise customers as soon as further information is available.â€

In a letter to CIE Group Secretary Geraldine Finucane, fellow lobbyists Rail Users Ireland (RUI) have re-iterated â€œin the strongest manner possibleâ€ their opposition to the lineâ€™s potential closure.

Following a meeting with IE on March 31st, RUI representatives revealed that the rail operator â€œwas unwilling to make any effort to promote or provide through services on the siteâ€.

The linking-up of services from Rosslare to the new Western Rail Corridor via Waterford and Limerick has been mooted by supporters of the lineâ€™s retention in recent months. However, it would appear that their suggestions are falling upon deaf IE ears.

Interestingly, UK-based lobby group Rail Future, which is also a member of the European Passenger Federation, has also made a submission to the NTA.

In its contribution, Rail Future has highlighted the importance of the rail/sail option linking South Wales with the south east, a potential holiday making link which IE has paid scant attention to.

In the RUI letter to CIE, spokesperson Mark Gleeson claims that IE has failed to meet standards â€œas laid down in the contract between IE and the NTAâ€ while also breaching its own customer charter.

Calling for IEâ€™s May 21st notice to be withdrawn, Mr Gleeson states: â€œThe NTA has not given its accent to the proposed withdrawal of service and it is understood that the earliest decision will be September 2010â€¦

â€œWe are not alone in considering taking a legal challenge against this proposed closure. Such a formal legal challenge would result in an indefinite delay to closure.â€

Meanwhile, the STR group, which held a protest at Waterford Bus Station on Saturday last, had to travel from Rosslare without one of its members â€“ Cyril Newsome, who uses a wheelchair.
http://www.munster-express.ie/business/waterford-rosslare-rail-line-in-stay-of-execution/

Mark Gleeson

07-08-2010, 19:43

The plot thickens, now three private operators in the fray showing an interesting in running the route.

corktina

08-08-2010, 15:31

im sure several concerns would like a toe in the door of irish rail operations....their sucess would have profound repercussions for IE surely. More power to them!

I was saddened to see the Red Herring of linking Rosslare operations to the WRC.. If a through service were the best option, Cork would be a better option with decent connections to Limerick at the Junction.(BTW you cant have an indefinate delay...tortology...)

Alan French

08-08-2010, 21:23

corktina

09-08-2010, 06:13

Its a Red Herring (oh no,this is gettin zooologiogal...) because the WRC is a White Elephant and would not help the case of the Rosslare line to be lumped in with it.

comcor

09-08-2010, 09:10

If you linked Rosslare to Cork and you brought the Rosslare-Limerick Junction line up to the standard of the Cork-Dublin line and you only stopped 3 or 4 times (which sort of defeats the purpose of providing service on it), it would still take over three hours. The investment required to get it to that level would be pretty huge as well.

The major diversion means rail could never really compete with the bus.

At least a Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick-Galway service is rougly in a straight line.

corktina

09-08-2010, 16:11

but the Limerick to Galway bit is fatally flawed in that it has had a lot of cash invested in it (and surely isnt likely to get more one hopes!) but is slower than the road (by a lot) and dearer than the Bus.(by a lot). I cant see a private operator wanting to take on this bit whereas a reliable and sensible service to and from a Ferry Port served by 2 services to Wales and one to France ( I think ) might have a hope of improvement. It really would make a nice self-contained package for an operator if the Dublin and Waterford services were included (OK if you insist,extended to Limerick Junc to connect to Cork na d Limerick/Galway)

Traincustomer

09-08-2010, 16:31

Hi, yes one main route to Cherbourg year-round (served by both Irish Ferries and Celtic Link) plus seasonal route to Roscoff (Irish Ferries).

Colm Moore

10-08-2010, 19:29

corktina

10-08-2010, 20:29

Well you can either pay a large subsidy to an inefficient operator or a smaller subsidy to an efficient operator.

not sure quite what you mean...presumably you are advocating Bus Eireann over IE? Id wager a private company wqould be more efficent than either.

Thomas J Stamp

10-08-2010, 23:55

im sure several concerns would like a toe in the door of irish rail operations....their sucess would have profound repercussions for IE surely. More power to them!

bet IE never saw that coming as a result of all this. Did the Departments of Finance and Transport though, that's a more interesting question. Oddly enough, back when we used to debate privatisation nobody ever mentioned this line being a rich pickings. Just takes some outside perspective....

dowlingm

11-08-2010, 00:48

Oddly enough, back when we used to debate privatisation nobody ever mentioned this line being a rich pickings. Just takes some outside perspective....Can't look too greedy and ask for Dublin-Cork to start off... have to look all philanthropic like :D

Alan French

11-08-2010, 19:19

Replying to Comcor and Corktina (#63-67), time will tell.

Some of us have looked hard at the practicalities of providing a decent timetable for every route (see "Timetable consultation"). Any train arriving at Limerick Junction from the Waterford direction would have a connection shortly afterwards to Cork by an existing Dublin-Cork train. When that happens, we will get some idea of how many people actually make that connection. If a reasonable number of passengers do make it (whether internal or cross-channel), then it will be worth providing a through train, regardless of what anyone else has predicted. If the number is small, then the connection will still be there for those who want it. This would still be true if the WRC had never re-opened. Members' views differ on the WRC, and there is no need to knock that service to make a case for a Rosslare-Cork train.

The train journey from Rosslare to Cork is at a disadvantage because of its roundabout route, but that doesn't always mean it is completely doomed to failure. In this case, once a good timetable is in place on the Limerick Junction -Waterford line, we will find out at no extra cost what the demand is like for the Cork direction.

A number of people in these columns seem to have fallen for the idea that once a bus or a car can do a journey more quickly than a train, the that railway is doomed to total failure. Some in the media think that way too.
In fact, all sorts of services that people said wouldn't work, have worked.

A useful statistic would be - if anyone can find it - did the Rosslare-Cork route lose many passengers in 1967 when the trains were diverted via Limerick Junction? It continued to be a through service for a further six years.

Colm Moore

12-08-2010, 17:34

not sure quite what you mean...presumably you are advocating Bus Eireann over IE? Id wager a private company wqould be more efficent than either.Not necessarily. BÃ‰ and IÃ‰ provide different services.

However, part of the problem at hand is that the convenience and overall value of a service to the passenger is overlooked in planning that service. So we have Craughwell with 10 services per day, when it might have been better to provide Oranmore with 28 services per day for almost identical costs (the only cost would be the extra fuel and wear & tear in braking and accelerating). It would require the exact same number of trains and staff and the same construction costs. However, fare income would be much more substantial

Likewise, in south Wexford, there are a dozen or so level crossing gate keepers (and all sorts or permanent way staff) who serve a total of 2 trains a day. The marginal cost of providing a much increased service is slight - its just driver and train time.

Now, if Galway-Limerick, Limerick-Limerick Junction, Limerick Junction-Waterford and Waterford-Rosslare Harbour/Wexford services were operated in such a fashion that resources could be used a bit more efficiently, e.g. reducing the lay-over times mid-route, that would be a gain. Offering a more frequent and faster service would be a further gain, increasing fare income. However, Irish Rail don't seem to be capable of these improvements. Other operators do seem to be capable.

If the operation of a route or routes was put out to tender and Irish Rail say they will do it for X and another operator say they will do the same or better service for X-Y, then surely we should go for the other operator. Of course, given that the other operator might have overhead costs spread over a small operation might mitigate against this and they might be more expensive.

corktina

13-08-2010, 20:50

dermo88

15-08-2010, 07:29

In reply to Alan French.

From memory, the Waterford to Mallow line was a thrice weekly service, running twice daily (Rosslare to Cork Express) in Winter, and Daily in Summer, morning and evening. It was a limited Stop service, stopping only at Waterford, Dungarvan, Lismore, Fermoy. There was a once daily stopping service at all stations.

It was another route that had all the classic "rundown" to closure applied to it, by both the Great Southern and CIE. It did not integrate with the Dublin services at either end, so the connections were inconvenient. No attempt was made to maximise usage.

Also, often forgotten was that the line from Waterford to Dungarvan on to Mallow was festooned with speed restrictions, level crossings, steep gradients, tight curves, despite an effective speed limit of 60mph, for all intensive purposes, average speeds were closer on 25mph end to end. It was the hardest of all the mainlines to operate, and fixed expenditure was always very high. The track was not superelevated either.

If Rosslare to Waterford is to survive, then onward connections are crucial. These seem to have always been badly catered for.

Alan French

16-08-2010, 14:07

Thanks, Dermo88.

In 1972 I gave a talk to the Engineering Society in Trinity College about train timetables, and I referred to the old line via Dungarvan (closed only 5 years earlier) as a prime example of how a line could fail because of a bad timetable - a point that consultants always failed to notice.

The history of that period shows some parallels with today's issues. The Rosslare-Cork express, as you say, ran three days a week from October to March (approx), because that was when the ships sailed. For the other six months this was increased to six days a week, and in July and August, a second train ran to connect with a second sailing. These trains stopped at the stations you have listed, plus three others. Connections for the Limerick direction were sporadic.

There were several smaller stations; these were served by the 07.15 Rosslare-Cork, which arrived with not much time to spare before it returned about 13.30, serving Waterford at 17.45. So the small stations didn't get a decent day return service to Cork.

So, apart from this one stopping train, all eggs were in one basket - the ferry connections. No attempt was made to develop a Waterford-Cork inter-city service (which could have been done with no extra resources). For ten months of the year, someone living in Dungarvan couldn't make a day return trip to Waterford.

After the closure in 1967, the express trains were diverted via Limerick Junction, still about the same times. One other train per day ran Limerick-Waterford and back. The stopping train survived east of Waterford, to become the present Rosslare-Waterford commuter service.

1973 was a good year for timetable improvements generally. On the Limerick Junction-Waterford section, the service became twice a day, and now it catered much better for internal journeys, while still providing reasonable connections with ships. This what we are aiming to do now. Trains ran to/from Limerick now instead of Cork, but I don't regard this as too serious, because there were connections for Cork, and the journey time was only slightly longer. At least day return trips were now possible to Limerck or Waterford, which was an improvement! For the first year, the Limerick-Waterford trains actually had a basic catering service on those days that they were boat trains.

In 1975 the rot set in, when they cancelled the morning train between Limerick Junction and Waterford for most of the year. Now the 07.10 from Rosslare (which carried commuters and ferry passengers) terminated at Waterford, with no onward connection. The loss of day return opportunities made sure that the remaining trains would now carry less passengers. And so it remained for 28 more years.

So, like today, there were periods when some imagination was used in planning timetables, and periods when none at all was used.

CorkALVIN

07-01-2011, 14:23

It's not a red herring. I've no objection to the idea of through services between Rosslare and Cork (as there were until 1973). But the idea of running through services between Rosslare and Galway comes as a consequence of trying to give each part of this line a decent service - preferably every two hours.

Look at it this way. A train arrives at Limerick Junction from Waterford or Rosslare, and another train of the same type and length arrives from Limerick or Galway. Each feeds passengers into trains going both ways on the Dublin-Cork line. Then each returns where it came from.

But if instead each of these trains were to continue "straight ahead" instead of turning back, it would give an improved service at no extra cost, by eliminating a change for passengers going Waterford-Limerick or beyond. Even if few people want to go from Rosslare to Galway, passengers from Tipperary to Limerick will certainly be more encouraged to travel if there is no change at the Junction.

So it's a consequence of trying to give each part of the line a decent service - that's where we start. Now, if it turns out that there are enough passengers for Cork (or the Kerry direction), then a through run may be justified. This means an extra run by a railcar on the Limerick Junction-Cork section. But we are talking about running several trains per day, so it is possible to send some trains to Cork and others to Galway. Is it mainly the boat trains that you have in mind, or some other time of day?

Surely, by far and away the most sensible way to restore a decent service-pattern on the Waterford-Rosslare Route would be to extend the existing Dublin-Waterford trains onwards to Rosslare, or Dublin-Rosslare services on to Waterford; extending this to its logical conclusion, trains could run in a big loop Connolly-Rosslare-Waterford-Heuston, even looping between Connolly and Heuston via the Phoenix Park tunnel; I could see IE generating a whole lot more passenger traffic from the same number of railcars and staff (or even less) by doing it this way; also, considering the regular disruptions to the Connolly-Rosslare route due to DART maintenance, an alternative Rosslare Route via Waterford should be a given.:D