Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored

[Traincustomer]

:mad: From this week's Wexford People

IT WON'T be long before the whistle blows for the last time on the Rosslare to Waterford train.

Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that it is considering ending services on the line, to save money.

In a letter to Labour T.D., Brendan Howlin, the District Manager in Waterford Emmet Cotter said the line has experienced 'very low patronage' for years.

Approximately 25 passengers travel on it every day, with revenue making up only 2% of operating costs. The closure would generate 'substantial cost savings', he said.

The sugar beet industry previously helped the line to remain viable but that came to an end in 2006.

Mr. Cotter blamed a reduction in the Government's subvention to Iarnrod Eireann for the company having to consider closing the Rosslare-Waterford line which also serves the villages of Rosslare Strand, Bridgetown, Wellingtonbridge, Ballycullane and Campile.

He said the company is currently surveying customers on the route to establish their origin and destination; is discussing the possibility of re-deployment or voluntary severance with staff, and examining possible alternative services which could be provided to customers.

'A decision on the continuation of existing services on the route is expected to be made within weeks, following these actions,' he said.

He revealed that Iarnrod Eireann would explore the possibility of establishing a 'heritage railway' on the route, to benefit tourism.

Fianna Fail Deputy Seán Connick, having been in contact with both Irish Rail and the Transport Minister Noel Dempsey, has said the service 'could be in danger of closing in the near future'.

Deputy Connick said that the future of the line was first put into doubt with the publication of the An Bord Snip Nua report of last year, which advocated the closure of a number of lightly used rail services, including the Rosslare-Waterford line.

'The Rosslare-Waterford railway line has the potential to be an important link between south Wexford and Waterford City,' said the Fianna Fáil TD.

'Unfortunately this line has never been developed properly and has never reached its potential to be a viable alternative source of transport for people working or studying in Waterford. The current service has only one train a day in either direction.

'The train from Waterford to Rosslare leaves the station in Waterford at 5:20 p.m. This would not give anyone studying in WIT or working in the city centre sufficient time to get the train to travel home,' said the New Ross-based TD.

'This means that Irish Rail's own timetable is the biggest impediment to the development of the Rosslare-Waterford railway line.'

Deputy Connick said he has been in correspondence with both the Transport Minister Noel Dempsey and officials from Irish Rail about the rail service, but it seems his pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

Meanwhile, Wexford Borough Councillor Joe Ryan (Lab), who has been fighting to save the railway line, said he was 'very disenchanted' with Iarnrod Eireann management. 'The line has potential but Iarnrod Eireann isn't interested,' he said.

Cllr. Ryan said the cost of taxi fares in 2009, to return staff to Waterford was over €30,000.

'Iarnrod Eireann had the chance of running the train back to Waterford to avoid the transport cost. They also had the option of using a Wexford-based crew.

Deputy Howlin was due to raise the issue during an Adjournment Debate in Dail Eireann last night (Tuesday).

- Maria PEPPER and Conor CULLEN

[Thomas J Stamp]

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

[comcor]

"alternative methods" = Bus.

Which ends up getting cancelled eventually anyway.

The bus service that was put in place to replace the Mallow-Waterford line when it closed is one of those shelved in the recent round of cuts. Give it enough time and the same thing will be done in Wexford.

[PLUMB LOCO]

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many. :confused:

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a legal consultation period before IE can do anything.

We have a defined policy on regional routes and naturally will only make a formal statement once the committee has met and discussed the matter. Its not the first time this issue has arisen however we need to determine how real this is first.

[dowlingm]

The other problem with the "replacement" service is that it doesn't appear on the IE timetable since it's a BE service, so what little feed trickles through onto the rest of the network disappears because it's not convenient for casual browsers to make connections.

That said, I looked at the route in Google Maps and it's one field after another and not even a bullet straight route like Glounthaune-Youghal at that, instead winding along with plenty of LCs and the opening Barrow bridge to be maintained.

Ironically, one of the things IE blame for not being able to run later is that the 1720 ex Waterford is crewed from Waterford, and the bus from Rosslare they get back to base leaves at 1900. If it left 15-20 minutes later, it could pick up trade from the 1933 arrival ex Heuston as well as those still trying to get across the river from where most people work. That would mean the crew would miss their bus... or Bus Eireann could be asked to delay their service by 15 minutes. Nah, that would violate Mary Harney's precious competition between rail and bus.

At the very least IE should be leaned on to redirect that equipment to Carlow for a commuter service - it's a bit ridiculous that there's no arrival from that side into Waterford before 0945.

[on the move]

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

Let's examine the alternative arrangements:

1. Bus

So the bus it is then.

I have looked at trying to travel between the two towns when I'm in the area, but surprise surprise the times don't suit.

IE have a fair point when they say it's a loss-making line, but that could be said of many routes across the country. They can't close them all.

[PLUMB LOCO]

Let's examine the alternative arrangements:

1. Bus

So the bus it is then.

I have looked at trying to travel between the two towns when I'm in the area, but surprise surprise the times don't suit.

IE have a fair point when they say it's a loss-making line, but that could be said of many routes across the country. They can't close them all.

IE do not have a fair point - there's not a line in the country that doesn't lose money so perhaps the entire system should close down??:mad:

[Colm Moore]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0312/rail1.htmlWaterford to Rosslare rail line could close
watch Friday, 12 March 2010 20:34

Iarnród Éireann has confirmed it is considering closing the Waterford to Rosslare rail line.

A spokesperson told RTÉ News this afternoon that a decision will be made within the next few weeks.

The spokesperson added that revenue only covers 2% of the cost of keeping the line open.

The line runs between Waterford city and Rosslare port, with trains stopping at towns and villages in south Wexford. It has been in operation since 1906.

There is currently a morning commuter service from Rosslare to Waterford, with a return service in the evening.

Iarnród Éireann is surveying remaining passengers regarding alternative arrangements and said that workers will be offered either a transfer or a severance package.

Wexford Labour Cllr Joe Ryan said Iarnród Éireann is failing the people of south Wexford abysmally.

He said: 'When they introduced a commuter service to Waterford from Wexford they made no effort to promote the service in the local media.

'To undermine the viability of the service, they rostered a Waterford crew on the service and as a consequence taxi bills for returning crews from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford exceeded revenues generated by the commuter service.'

[dowlingm]

Plumb - the reality is that they get a subsidy to keep the lines open but they have undoubtedly been told by Finance that tough times are ahead.

However, if BE ever pulled off a route that money could be made from, Citylink or Aircoach or somebody would have the option of applying to operate it. Obviously not the case for IE with the exception of someone being mad enough to buy some 1600mm stock and start an ROI-NI service (and negotiate for slots and station access).

IE are in the position of competing against the road companies (and to a limited extent Ryanair/Aer Arann) which makes publishing financial data tricky but holding a total monopoly position over the use of publicly-owned infrastructure. This is why it's an imperative to disengage operations from network, so that the network operator can maintain the trackage to a standard irrespective of whether it's useful to IE or not.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many. :confused:

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

[Charlie Hungerford]

The Tribune - which is generally on the ball on railway matters - is reporting that the entire Limerick Junction - Rosslare section is being earmarked for closure along with the Nenagh branch. :eek:

It seems some secret deal has been trashed out between CIE and the department - they'll close Waterford-Rosslare now and then kill off the other two lines at some point in the near future.

The story isn't online yet but it's on page 2 of their printed edition.

[ACustomer]

This is the price which will be paid for the Ennis-Athenry line.

As always crude political pressures come out on top.

[Mark Gleeson]

You would be amazed, I did the numbers

Waterford-Rosslare per year approx 2.4-2.6million

WRC 2.5 million

Hmmm

[PLUMB LOCO]

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

[dowlingm]

I note that if someone wanted to book Limerick-Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston to bump up their numbers, the booking program doesn't offer those journeys. Interesting...

When Athenry was disconnected, the line was left open as far as Ennis which despite a desperately slow line developed into a half-decent commuter service. IE should be instructed that on no account will they be allowed close the entire Nenagh Branch.

What they should be permitted to do is disconnect Nenagh-Ballybrophy on the understanding that the timetable be recast to reflect the current rail relay and replacement of any remaining jointed rail, with the objective of getting the current 62 minute timing down to something near the 50 minutes the 0745 Nenagh-Henry St bus takes. If more passengers can be attracted in Nenagh by a faster train than would be otherwise forgone, discontinue Birdhill (BE already serves Birdhill on the aforementioned 0745) and save a couple of minutes and some diesel on slowing down/accelerating there.

[ThomasJ]

heres the sunday tribune's piece
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/mar/14/rail-closure-plans-set-ff-and-greens-on-collision-/

Rail closure plans set FF and Greens on collision course
Ken Griffin

IARNRÓD éireann's plans to embark on its first railway closures since the 1970s look set to cause a further rift between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.


Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe has indicated that his party will oppose the closures, which will sever direct railway links between the country's main southern population centres.


If the plans go ahead in full, rail passengers from Waterford would have to go via Dublin to reach Cork, Limerick and Wexford.


The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.


These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".


The plan has the support of the department but the Greens are concerned by the plans with Cuffe telling the Sunday Tribune that the lines played an important role in the party vision of providing a comprehensive railway service.


"Any change to the rail network must be done on the basis of sound social, environmental and economic analysis. Routes that are currently under-used may benefit from improved timetables, rosters and marketing."


Iarnród éireann's plans are likely to meet opposition from rail campaigners, who accuse it of deliberately undermining the financial viability of lines that it wants to close.


This newspaper has learned that railway services on the Waterford-Rosslare line are now so poor that Iarnród éireann spent €30,000 on taxi fares in 2009 to ferry staff between the two locations.


A company spokesman said the suspension of services on the Waterford-Rosslare line would generate substantial cost savings.


"The line serves areas with very low populations," he said.


Fine Gael transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the issue would be top of his party's agenda once the Dáil resumed after the St Patrick's Day break.


"I am concerned that the Green Party could be a party to the closure of transport services which reduce carbon emissions," he said.


He said he was shocked to learn of the talks between Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport.


"It's a joke. They seem to think they are unaccountable to the travelling public and the Dáil," said O'Dowd.

March 14, 2010

[dowlingm]

FG going on about emissions but in fairness, if IE are operating a 2700 (2-car, not a 2750) over the line, that's 84 tonnes and 117 seats to carry not many people - the passenger/km emissions numbers must be substantial compared to a bus with the same load.

[TomB]

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

Last Autumn we were visiting a friend in Waterford and took the train from Limerick. It was absolutely woeful. My wife nearly got sick from the ride of the train, and I was feeling fairly ropey too by the time we reached Waterford. It is difficult to describe the snail's pace that this train travels at -- it just feels sort of humiliating. There I was, someone who is generally in favour of rail transport, crawling along watching cars whizzing past on the N24, feeling rotten.

Haven't been between Waterford and Rosslare recently, but I assume it's the same. Went to Nenagh last year and that trip was also completely rotten.

Coming back from Waterford on the bus (it was a Sunday) was a much better experience. We even had a snooze -- not something you'd manage on the train unless you had serious narcoleptic tendencies! I can honestly say that anyone travelling from Limerick to Waterford would be better off getting the bus -- even if there wasn't an interminable wait at the Junction.

CIE/IE have been trying to close these lines for over 30 years. Have a look back at the Oireachtas archive and you'll see countless arguments against their closure.

Those arguments have won the day, for now. But keeping railway lines open because they look good on the map isn't helping anyone if the service is slow, uncomfortable and depressing.

Having said that, the best thing that IE could have done for these train lines is leak that they want to close them. Because that's the only time they ever get discussed. Who knows, one of these days we'll move beyond "don't close" and have a real discussion in this country about what we want those lines on a map to be for.

PS Plumb Loco - your response seems a little over the top there -- all Thomas Stamp was doing was commenting on how IE have been wilfully trying to close the line through poor service -- the same criticism that I presume you would make yourself...

[Mark Gleeson]

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years. I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

What struck me was the numbers oft quoted of single digit passenger numbers bore no resemblance to the numbers I saw.

The most telling information is during the January cold snap the trains where full as the train offered the only way in to work, that shows there are enough people in the catchment area to make it work. Given the Barrow Bridge advantage there is no faster way from most towns in south Wexford to Waterford

While IE leaking this gets a debate going IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems, many of these problems are quite simple marketing and information issues.

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

[PLUMB LOCO]

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. I don't know where you get your 90% figure from and I can tell you as somebody who uses the line when possible, lived in a town served by it in the 1980s, it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees. If the Dublin/Cork line had a service similar to the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line and accordingly low numbers would you advocate closing it?

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=nf&gid=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

[Thomas J Stamp]

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees.

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

that is exactly what i said. RUI as a body has not got the luxury of being emotive and hot headed on an issue like this. What we do is present a cold hard argument regarding keeping services/standards ect. In that role we often get called upon by local groups and others to help them in their fights and their presentations to Government, TD's and the Stakeholders.

I hope everyone who is a member of RUI or is just a poster like Plumb Loco joins this facebook page and signs the petition. RUI will do its part as well.

[TomB]

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years
I don't know where you get your 90% figure from
Sorry, I probably didn't express that very well -- I wasn't making pot shots at posters here, merely making a wider observation that there will be the inevitable hoo-ha in local and national media about line closures and that lots of people will oppose closure based on the fact that rail lines are A Good Thing without any direct experience of the service in question.


The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

I know ride quality can be very subjective so we'll have to agree to differ on this point. All I can say is that going down by train and back up to Limerick by bus, the bus was more comfortable for us.

My contention is that this debate has been going on for years and years and what we've ended up with for the past 30 years is a line which is kept open (by a thread), loses a lot of money, and which provides a service which isn't very good.

Take a look at this Dáil debate from 1977 -- it feels like absolutely nothing has changed:

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0297/D.0297.197702220056.html

This is, of course, what bloody annoys me about Ennis-Athenry -- Ballybrophy-Limerick and Rosslare-Limerick Junction are textbook examples of a train service on a single track line providing a rubbish service uncompetitive with bus, yet we're going to do it all over again with Ennis-Athenry.

Mark's point about the comparative costs of Ennis-Athenry versus Junction-Rosslare are interesting -- the tragedy is of course for the price of the two we could have had a decent Junction Rosslare service which would have provided a template for successful 'Regional Rail' in this country


IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems

Sure, absolutely. Which presents a dilemma. We all know that a combination of Victorian work practices lower down and a dearth of customer focus higher up results in a rail system that can be woeful and expensive. Which is of course why an organisation like RUI is badly needed -- to give a kick up the behind to IE in both departments.

The genesis of RUI was in the proposed closure of these lines 7 years ago. I'm just wondering aloud whether another situation where the lines are 'saved' would really benefit anyone significantly, if nothing else changes. Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

i would hope so.

[Mark Gleeson]

I see the real problem of the regional lines being considered as separate entities, considered individually the potential is lower than if viewed as a combined entity, why can't you go from Galway to Rosslare as a single seat journey?

The numbers suggest if the Limerick Junc - Rosslare line got the basic rail safety program work, funds being already committed the extra cost in running a train every 2 hours would be more than offset by the savings from eliminating the manual signal cabins and crossings, resulting in a lower overall cost to provide a much better service. Given the low starting base numbers would grow significantly.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2010&no=2.html

as stated above there is a legal requirement to have a consulatation process, we will be at that.

[dowlingm]

One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

[Mark Gleeson]

I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project

[markpb]

I'm not familiar with the line at all but I wonder if the government would consider tendering out the operation of the line to a private company. They could take the railcars, subsidy and license from IR and offer them as a package to the operator. Line maintenance would remain with IR and some of the ticket sales would go to the government. Integrated ticketing with the rest of the IR network would be part and parcel because they wouldn't have any control over it.

A private company wouldn't have the baggage of IR and would have a strong incentive to operate a service people would want to use. IR would win because they'd lose a loss making service (but also lose the subsidy). They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

[dowlingm]

I think the ascension of Sean Connick to ministerial rank will do more to concentrate IE's mind than any notional private entrant.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats more or less what Irish Rail are trying to do. But the government have yet to put in place the legal requirements to allow it.

Ideally let them take over Galway Rosslare, but someone will have to put up money to pay to run the service.

Money + service specification => contract third party

[Colm Moore]

They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.There may be a transfer of undertakings issue. http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/informationforemployers/transferofundertakings/

[Thomas J Stamp]

was it this time last year, or slightly before, that IE flew the "railbus" kite down there?

[Mark Gleeson]

Slight issue is the bus isn't big enough!

Its routine to see 50-60 on trains between Limerick Junction and Waterford, numbers leaving Waterford to Rosslare can be over 30 on Fridays

Bus can take 20-25 tops

[Colm Moore]

Buy two buses?

[Eddie]

If this line was already closed they'd be looking to reopen it, and to justify it they'd propose a sensible timetable.

Those taxi rides / fares are utterly unbelievable. Passengers feel good that they are not emitting additional green house gases by taking the train only to discover that the train crew go home using road transport.

It makes you wonder how many other train crews are using taxis across the network...

I actually think this line is unlikely to close because the more of the western rail line is opened, the more it makes sense to have through trains to Rosslare. With a few more trains a day, and the iniative that's already in place with regard to free rides for all those over 65, this is really good opportunity to encourage visitors to explore Ireland by rail. (You'd even be able to have tourist trains that circumnavigate Ireland from Dublin to Wexford to Waterford to Limerick to Galway to Westport and back to Dublin.)

[Mark Gleeson]

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use

[dowlingm]

So I'm a private operator. I want to use existing stock - oops, IE have scrapped so much of theirs that their railcars are maxed out. I want to use their tracks - well, I suppose I can trust them to charge me an appropriate amount given that they are a vertical operator. And there's no fear of IE unions refusing to operate signals or sell tickets on my behalf or other similar shenanigans. On top of that, I'm operating on the lines they don't want because they are *******ed/manual signal/manual LCs/all of the above.

Where do I sign?

[Jister]

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use

I would have thought Ballina - Wexford Town would be the long term logical plan. Rail tourism playing a big part, along with Ballina-Waterford freight and other freight flows to help carry the cost.

[Colm Moore]

I would have thought Ballina - Wexford Town would be the long term logical plan. Rail tourism playing a big part, along with Ballina-Waterford freight and other freight flows to help carry the cost.There is already an under used railway along that route.

[crc]

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use
Likewise, I was thinking that Galway-Dublin should use the old Athlone-Mullingar route (especially now that Cork-Galway can be done via Limerick). With Westport-Dublin continuing on the Athlone-Portarlington stretch it would open up many more route combinations.

But it seems to me as if IE done want to have a network, just a series of single routes between Dublin and provincial cities.

[dowlingm]

Athlone-Mullingar would be:
a) tricky because of the location of Athlone East station and the amount of development in between the two lines to make a connection further east
b) pretty pointless without double tracking most if not all of Mullingar-Maynooth first to get their service level up to a point where it would be worth sending excess service over to Athlone rather than turning it back.

Retrenchment is the name of the game now -maximising passengers carried per euro of capital spend and that really means PaleRail. I'm even starting to wonder if the electrification of Interconnector/Hazelhatch will be followed by dieselising south of Fairview because they won't be able to afford the necessary numbers of EMUs to service the two lines at once and there is no electric only section to worry about.

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0406/1224267752832.htmlMeeting to support rail link between Rosslare, Waterford
CHRIS ASHMORE

A PUBLIC meeting is being held in Wellingtonbridge, Co Wexford, tomorrow as the campaign to keep open the Rosslare Strand-Waterford railway line intensifies.

The future of the lightly used line is in doubt with only a handful of passengers using it and with revenue covering an estimated 2 per cent of costs.

For many years the line had a major freight flow with up to 300,000 tonnes of beet being carried by up to seven trains a day from Wellingtonbridge to the former sugar factory in Mallow. However, the demise of the sugar beet industry ended this important revenue flow.

The closure of the 35-mile line was recommended in the McCarthy report.

However, local people say the timetable does not encourage large patronage. There is only one train in each direction and none on Sundays. The service also fails to link in properly with other inter-city services and could attract more commuters with additional services, they say.

Labour councillor Joe Ryan says it is possible to travel from Wexford to Waterford, but not back in the same day. “The ticket machine at Wexford does not even have a Waterford option – but does have Sligo.”

If the line is shut it will also mean removing a link from the Atlantic arc linking Rosslare into the reopened Ennis-Athenry section of the Western Rail corridor.

Meanwhile, more than 1,500 people have joined a Facebook campaign to keep the line open.

The public meeting starts at 7.45pm.

[PLUMB LOCO]

Typical sloppy piece of journalism from 'the paper of record' - no reference as to where the meeting is being held - or the fact that it is not possible to return from Waterford to Wexford EVER not to mind the same day! :mad:

[Mark Gleeson]

Curiously Irish Rail have told us of no plan to close the line in the near future. We asked them, the talk is coming from the DoT not IE that said Irish Rail is notorious for not knowing what it is doing.

Passenger loadings on the previous Waterford - Wexford service were single digits in fact the only person who travelled through did so from Limerick Junc not from Waterford when I last travelled

The bus is Rosslare - Wexford - Waterford whereas the train is Wexford - Rosslare - Waterford

Bus is quicker from Wexford that the train, train is faster from Rosslare

[Thomas Ralph]

Typical sloppy piece of journalism from 'the paper of record' - no reference as to where the meeting is being held - or the fact that it is not possible to return from Waterford to Wexford EVER not to mind the same day! :mad:

Of course it is. Via Dublin, or with an overnight in Rosslare :rolleyes:

[dowlingm]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0407/breaking53.html
Waterford to Rosslare rail link axed
TIM O'BRIEN
Wed, Apr 07, 2010

Iarnród Éireann has confirmed it is to cease passenger services on the Waterford to Rosslare line in the southeast.

The company said it will explore the possibility of keeping the line open as a tourist/heritage railway, but it maintained that with passenger numbers at 25 per day, the route was "unsustainable".

A closing date for the route, which was one of those identified for examination by the recent McCarthy report, is expected to be announced by Iarnród Éireann soon.

Iarnród Éireann said it is maintaining services on other routes identified in the McCarthy report and has cut staff costs, length of trains and timetabled services in a bid to keep lines open.

The company has frequently warned of falling passenger numbers on the Waterford to Rosslare line while the sugar beet freight business, which sustained the route, ceased in 2006.

A trial extension of the passenger service from Rosslare to Wexford was under-utilised the company said.

A recent survey of passengers indicated most users were heading for Waterford Institute of Technology. Accordingly, the company said a bus service would replace the train, taking passengers to the institute, in about the same time, for about the same price.

Iarnród Éireann said there would also be environmental benefits of running a small bus, as opposed to a train.

It is understood that discussed have taken place with staff working on the route interested in redeployment within Iarnród Éireann. Voluntary severance is also to be offered.

The company said rail transport was "a volume business" and the passenger numbers spoke for themselves.
© 2010 irishtimes.com

[Thomas J Stamp]

If the rationale for Irish Rail is to judge each line and make a call on this basis then they may shut the WRC today. It costs roughly the same as this line and has roughly the same passengers.

So, we shall see the closure of Ballybrophy-Limerick? Will we see the end of Limerick Junction to Waterford? Clonmel to Waterford? Where will they draw the line?

Will we see merely mainline routes servicing Dublin from Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo/Belfast and Wexford?

It is a disgrace, and a sick one, for Irish Rail to say that they have done anything to increase awareness of this line, nor done anything to improve the take up of services. For this to be the truth they could have started with running a service that actually caters to the demands of the people there. As with the Ballybrophy line and also with the Limerick Junction to Waterford line we have Trains running at the wrong times and in the wrong direction. Of course there is low take up, but that is because of Irish Rail intransigence and stupidity not to mention sheer incompetance.

Lying on your back and waving your legs in the air is not a rail strategy. Irish rail have committed the cardinal sin yet again - they have forgone their right to run the rail service in this state. If they cannot make a line work then THEY should be out of work. They have not only failed to prepare as Roy Keane would say - they have willingly sacrificed this line. If that will do this then they negate their right to run regional rail at all in this state.

Whilst the reopening of any line is to be welcomed - a vampire line is most unwelcome. I hope that the legions of policitians who rode on the WRC opening day and have not gone near it since will turn up in Wellingtonbridge tonight and berate Irish Rail mismanagment for their closing of this line to placate the egos and fantasies of well meaning but betrayed people, for here is the irony = the closure of this line for the reaons stated is the closure of the WRC and Ballybrophy and anywhere else Irish Rail Mismanagement can strike a line through.

This is the abandonment of regional rail in thios country, and for the reasons why they are doing it every one of them from Boardroom to Service Managers, should be ashamed of themselves.

[comcor]

It'll make a nice photo op for some minister to be at the reopening in 20 years time.

[on the move]

Today at 5.30pm, the Transport Committee are meeting in Dail Eireann, to discuss the future of the Limerick-Rosslare line. Live coverage is available at the Live Webcast page of www.oireachtas.ie

[Mark Gleeson]

A bit late, there was a board meeting this morning in Dublin

Decision to close was taken then

[James Howard]

It'll make a nice photo op for some minister to be at the reopening in 20 years time.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the barrow bridge on this line? Ig it is and they close this line, it won't be reopening. This bridge alone would cost more than the entire WRC to reinstate.

The heritage line idea might be worth pursuing. It seems to me that given the level of service on this line at the moment it might as well be closed anyway. So if somebody could make a go of running steam excursions on it in the summer if might bring some tourism into the area.

I suppose that this sort of ideasos a bit creative for the cynical Irish mindset but heritage rail does a roaring trade in the uk and it is only a couple of hours from Rosslare.

[Mark Gleeson]

The bridge is staying in place

The heritage option is a decoy, it would require mainline standards as the end stations are still live on the network. As there is now a requirement to have a black box, there are only 2 privately owned locomotives certified for operation on the network, none of preserved diesels can be certified currently.

And say bye bye to any chance of a competitive journey time

[Jister]

Its tragic to let a line go. Its not like an air route that can be abandoned and reinstated on a whim (Shannon - Heathrow for example)

Once a line closes it is a colossal task to reopen it. Of course 10 years ago was the time to save the line - direct running from Weford town to Rosslare and cluster populations at the stations along the way.

[dowlingm]

Well, it seems the IE board isn't scared of the newly appointed minister for keeping seats in Wexford. I think the worst thing about this process is the rationale for both deciding to open a line (WRC) and closing one (South Wexford) is far from transparent. Good news for the Ballyhack ferry too I suppose since converting the Barrow bridge to road isn't on.

A bunch of IE honchos were supposed to be in wellington bridge tonight - bet they had a hot reception.

Does removing the South Wexford have an implication for the morning Rosslare-Dublin, or are those lines isolated from each other due to their different signalling at present?

Assuming that the government haven't the balls to force IE to reverse and to properly timetable the line service, I guess the next question is what the short term implication is for equipment/crewing reallocation, or whether the intent is to rob resources for politically favoured lines elsewhere.

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0408/1224267894916.htmlWaterford-Rosslare rail services to close
TIM O'BRIEN

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN has confirmed it is to cease passenger services on the Waterford to Rosslare line in the southeast.

The company said it will explore the possibility of keeping the line open as a tourist/heritage railway, but it maintained that with passenger numbers at 25 per day, the route was “unsustainable”.

A closing date for the line, which was one of those identified for examination by the recent McCarthy report, is expected to be announced by Iarnród Éireann soon.

Iarnród Éireann said yesterday that it plans to maintain services on other routes identified in the McCarthy report and has cut staff costs, length of trains and timetabled services in a bid to keep lines open.

But CIÉ chairman John Lynch told the Oireachtas Committee on Transport the Waterford to Rosslare line had not been supported economically and did not serve a large population.

The company had frequently warned of falling passenger numbers while the sugar beet freight business, which sustained the route, ceased in 2006.

A trial extension of the passenger service from Rosslare to Wexford was underutilised Mr Lynch said.

A recent survey of passengers indicated most users were heading for Waterford Institute of Technology. Accordingly, the company said a bus service would replace the train, taking passengers to the institute, in about the same time, for about the same price.

Iarnród Éireann said there would also be environmental benefits of running a small bus, as opposed to a train.

It is understood that discussions have taken place with staff working on the route who may be interested in redeployment within Iarnród Éireann. Voluntary severance is also to be offered.

The company said rail transport was “a volume business” and the passenger numbers spoke for themselves.

The closure was however immediately criticised by public representatives in the southeast. Wexford councillor Joe Ryan said Iarnród Éireann had done its best “to provide an unviable service”.

“The existing service has been set up to fail as it is poorly timetabled and marketed, with only one train a day. For the community to support the railway, a usable service needs to be provided. No effort has been made by the company to enhance or promote the route despite the availability of a modern diesel railcar which remains unused for eight hours a day parked up in Waterford.”

[Mark Hennessy]

When was the last time a passenger carrying line was shut in Ireland?

Late 1970's?

[PLUMB LOCO]

The Western Rail Corridor (Claremorris/Limerick portion) in 1976. I thought we had moved on from here! I must say I am disappointed, but not surprised, by the low profile adopted by RUI on this closure. Where is the usually ominipresent Mark Gleeson on radio??????:mad:

[Mark Gleeson]

We met IE last week and discussed the matter and others (at IE's invitation I might add), in fact we where the the first in to discuss, the crew from Wexford only met IE last night.

Press release issued, positive response on that but the problem is we are not the producers of the radio news. Though the issue of through services from Galway to Rosslare was on the 1 O'Clock on iRadio West on WRC opening day I got interviewed about the WRC and related issues, not WOT.

With NAMA going through there was little interest in the media with a little railway line in Wexford, several print media pieces got deferred or dropped. We have been in communication with the group in Wexford, and indeed with others in Waterford and our proposals met with positive feedback but no one has the money to front the cost of the investment.

Closure of the line is not a done deal, IE might think they are free, but there is a complex set of legal loops which have to be got through which could buy an extra 18 months, by which time we should have a new national timetable, again something Irish Rail has invited us to work with them on. Unlike many others we actually have made positive and proactive proposals to build a proper integrated regional system and the basic idea we have pitched is something Irish Rail seem to accept as the way, but it doesn't have the money.

Money is the problem, a massive problem. The sole reason things have come to a head is the WRC needs 2.5 million. Sure we might risk a high court injunction to shut the WRC for a possible breech of the Transport Act but that is hardly going to win any friends is it? not to mention the legal fees

[Thomas Ralph]

It's shown up on http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-under-pressure-to-reverse-decision-to-close-line-453076.html now.

[ThomasJ]

it doesn't suprise me that this is happening with the current transport minister in place others would not have allowed this.

It wouldn't surprise if cutting the current connolly-rosslare services back to wexford is also on the agenda.

Its a shame my thought was that at worse extend the current heuston-waterford intercity services to wexford and rosslare as a result people at campile etc would still have a proper service, people south of heuston could get to wexford and rosslare without having to travel through dublin and so on it was different! Its a pity irish rail have no creative thinking in them!

[Mark Gleeson]

The notice period is 8 weeks under the transport act

(3) The Board shall not terminate a service or close a railway station to any or all classes of traffic unless, at least two months before doing so, the Board has published, in Iris Oifigiúil and in such newspapers circulating in the area affected by the proposal as the Board thinks proper, notice of its intention to do so.

They also need a variance on the contract with the NTA

Of course can the board of CIE stand over this

(2) The Board shall not terminate a service unless it is satisfied that its operation is uneconomic and that there is no prospect of its continued operation being economic within a reasonable period.

Given no effort has been made to improve the viability of the line, or to cut costs i.e Wellingtonbridge signalbox could be switched out the requirement might not be satisfied.

For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear. What you need is a train from Rosslare to Galway with connections to Dublin and Cork services at points en route

[PLUMB LOCO]

Mark - I'm not a technical person so please can you expand upon this point: 'For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear.'

Anyway an ICR would not be needed just a revamped 2700 would do nicely.

[dowlingm]

PLUMB LOCO - don't have the specs to hand but suspect a 22K being a 100mph set is optimised for higher cruise speeds so the gearing is probably not optimised for rattling along at 40mph. Also, the additional on-train systems probably mean higher power consumption from the electrical generators as opposed to the simpler 2700s.

[Mark Gleeson]

Mark - I'm not a technical person so please can you expand upon this point: 'For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear.'

Anyway an ICR would not be needed just a revamped 2700 would do nicely.
Previous poster suggested extension of Waterford intercity service to South Wexford line.

Report from shed in Cork stated 20% more fuel 3 car ICR vs 4 car 2700 per day, so a 2 car 2700 uses half (not exactly half due aerodynamic drag). ICR is useless in low speed stop start operation, it was designed for long distance high speed start stop, it must get above 60mph before it shows any serious performance and burns a lot of fuel to get there. 2700 is faster to 60mph and anyway the regional routes are 50mph tops

Just having the heating on a Mk3 set would use more fuel in a day that either before you add fuel for an engine

[Derek Wheeler]

Curiously Irish Rail have told us of no plan to close the line in the near future. We asked them, the talk is coming from the DoT not IE that said Irish Rail is notorious for not knowing what it is doing.


After you made that quote, John Lynch announced the closure. Furthermore you say you were invited to a meeting with IE to discuss it. What did you do at that meeting? Roll over and have your tummy tickled?

The response from RUI to this has been very poor and I mean that in all sincerity.

We met IE last week and discussed the matter and others (at IE's invitation I might add), in fact we where the the first in to discuss, the crew from Wexford only met IE last night.

Press release issued, positive response on that but the problem is we are not the producers of the radio news. Though the issue of through services from Galway to Rosslare was on the 1 O'Clock on iRadio West on WRC opening day I got interviewed about the WRC and related issues, not WOT.

With NAMA going through there was little interest in the media with a little railway line in Wexford, several print media pieces got deferred or dropped. We have been in communication with the group in Wexford, and indeed with others in Waterford and our proposals met with positive feedback but no one has the money to front the cost of the investment.


That paragraph sums you up Mark. It looks like RUI has become an Irish Rail lacky. For the last 12 months I havent even visited this forum for any longer than a mistaken link and in that 12 months I've learned what its like to be joe public and appreciate how anonymous RUI are now.

Between this and the WRC press release, if your committee had both sense and balls, they'd be giving you the push. RUI has become a talking shop and lab rat for Irish Rail.

Apologies for gate crashing your little party, but when you actually care about matters and not your ego, these things have to be said.

[dowlingm]

At the very least RUI should be pushing IE to redeploy the cut service to where a need can be shown rather than simply "vanish" it.

For instance, send the 2027 arr ex Limerick Junction express to Carlow and back. At a stroke, you extend the "last train" Waterford-Dublin AND Dublin-Waterford by two hours, and if the LJ arrival could be reliably accelerated maybe even stop in Kilkenny.

[Jister]

It wouldn't surprise if cutting the current connolly-rosslare services back to wexford is also on the agenda.



That sounds like something Irish rail would do alright, disconnect their port from their railway system.

Presumably Irish Rail want this line shut before the summer in case tourists use it.

[Mark Hennessy]

The Western Rail Corridor (Claremorris/Limerick portion) in 1976. I thought we had moved on from here!

Ironic, the greens are in govt and we get rail closures and bus cutbacks all over the country.

Any chance we'll see Cuffe and O'Brolchain making a self-promotional video on the day of the closure? :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcbiWSo-Kg

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail have changed their stance and it sounds like something is afoot
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-to-review-railway-line-closure-453309.html

For the record the last passenger line to close was Athlone-Mullingar in 1987

[dowlingm]

Let me guess, a Dan Boyle twitter?

If IE are reversed on this we have a right to know who's making the decisions and the overrides - the process of both incepting and ending service is farcical at present when you consider the hoops the bus companies are made jump through.

[Mark Gleeson]

The goal is to get the the control of these issues away from IE

We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on

We pay for what we get in a transparent manner, just like the UK franchise arrangements service specification. There is political support on that and the idea is something we have discussed with politicians.

[ThomasJ]

The goal is to get the the control of these issues away from IE

We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on

We pay for what we get in a transparent manner, just like the UK franchise arrangements service specification. There is political support on that and the idea is something we have discussed with politicians.

Hammer on the head! If CIE/Irish Rail are not willing to provide the service someone else should be given the choice! We might actually see a decent service then!

[Eddie]

"We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on"

Agreed. Whichever body decided that Dublin to Cork should be hourly, Dublin to Sligo should be 2 hourly etc should also be responsible for dictating frequency of all lines. How long is it since there was more than 1 passenger train daily in each direction on this line?

At least potential closure has focused minds a bit on this and the lack of sense and conflict of simultaneously reopening one line and closing another line.

[Mark Gleeson]

Problem is Irish Rail decide currently, Dublin Cork isn't hourly really, The best comparision is the PSO air routes, a company is required to operate a certain number of flights per week, provide a certain number of seats and provide at least x seats at or below a defined price.

The UK model is based on input from passenger groups, the overall strategic goals and consultants and the rail regulator which sets a set of franchise requirements in terms of what must be provided

Failure to meet those standard results in serious trouble and potential loss of franchise, i.e Connex and most recently GNER who couldn't meet the financial premium (GNER was a profitable franchise and paid a fixed sum per annum to the UK exchequer). Despite these restrictions, any company which can exceed the baseline is free to do so, e.g Chiltern

[purplepanda]

Would I be right is assuming that the costs of installing modern automated level crossing systems on the Rosslare Waterford Limerick Junction / Nenagh lines is one of the reasons why the closure plans have been drawn up to save costs?

I know there are numerous level crossings from on the South Wexford line for example. Not to mention the rail line running through the Wexford Town Quays:rolleyes:

Would it be possible for Wexford Council / IE to close at least some of these backroads / level crossings or perhaps to contribute towards modernisation / upgrade budgets?

If the rest of the railway network is being bought up to modern safety standards, then a way to resolve this issue would make the future for these lines more viable, & hopefully provide faster & eventually more frequent services for passengers.

[dowlingm]

What does the NTA contract currently specify with respect to Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare?

[Mark Gleeson]

The current rail safety program was to automate the line from Limerick Junc to Waterford and possibly to Rosslare (it would cost a wopping 2 million extra) Waterford station needs to be totally rebuilt not only the building but all the track and signals, thats potentially a 20-30 million euro job. In theory the whole line from Limerick Junc to Rosslare would require only 1 signalman vs 7 current. There is a committed budget for some of this and some EU money.

Each km of track costs 30-40k per annum to run and that is independent of the number of trains to some degree.

Level crossings are dealt with based on a risk analysis which takes into account the type of crossing, the number of trains and there speed as well as crossing usage both car and foot, so regional lines aren't high on the list. An automatted level crossing is about 700k-1million in cost terms the signalling offers more savings for less outlay and that is why it happens first

[Mark Gleeson]

What does the NTA contract currently specify with respect to Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare?

Its in the contract, we are waiting for a copy of that schedule from the NTA. It is not in the public domain, though we have a very good idea what it will look like based on the informal agreements that IE had in the past.

[dowlingm]

I could have sworn there was discussion a while back about some agreement IE had which excluded certain lines and which led us to think IE had left themselves a back door.

[Cllr Joe Ryan]

Would I be right is assuming that the costs of installing modern automated level crossing systems on the Rosslare Waterford Limerick Junction / Nenagh lines is one of the reasons why the closure plans have been drawn up to save costs?

I know there are numerous level crossings from on the South Wexford line for example. Not to mention the rail line running through the Wexford Town Quays:rolleyes:

Would it be possible for Wexford Council / IE to close at least some of these backroads / level crossings or perhaps to contribute towards modernisation / upgrade budgets?

If the rest of the railway network is being bought up to modern safety standards, then a way to resolve this issue would make the future for these lines more viable, & hopefully provide faster & eventually more frequent services for passengers.

Wexford Borough Council have a car park on the Quays for day long parking. Access to the car park is charged to WBC at €50K per annum. I know that that figure is accurate as I voted for it in our annual estimates!
It pays for a person to open and shut the gate as the train passes along the Quay. I dare say that it is quite profitable and may well be indicative of other charges levied to statutory bodies such as local authoroities or harbour boards for access. Much of the land along the Quay on the far side of the railtrack actually belongs to Wexford Harbour Commissioners.
BTW excellent turn out at Wexford O'Hanrahan Station for the first of the protests against closure.

[Sealink]

For my next RailSail trip I am planning to go via the Stena Line route from Fishguard to Rosslare.

Imagine the noise of my jaw hitting the floor, at the news that the last IE service from Rosslare north is at 1755hrs, when the Stena Line and Irish Ferries ships arrive at 1800hrs and 1845hrs respectively, with no service West at all at that time.

Don't they like each other?

[Sealink]

The UK model is based on input from passenger groups, the overall strategic goals and consultants and the rail regulator which sets a set of franchise requirements in terms of what must be provided

Failure to meet those standard results in serious trouble and potential loss of franchise, i.e Connex and most recently GNER who couldn't meet the financial premium (GNER was a profitable franchise and paid a fixed sum per annum to the UK exchequer). Despite these restrictions, any company which can exceed the baseline is free to do so, e.g Chiltern

GNER and that poisoned chalice (otherwise known as the UK's flagship railway line/franchise) isn't a good example, as the company that won the franchise after GNER also defaulted. That was National Express East Coast. So now the flagship railway line is back in "public hands" for a year or two. An example that the UK system is by no means perfect, and in fact some here look longingly at IE's integration.

A better example, and a network that more closely mirrors IE is First ScotRail. Some prime routes : Glasgow to Aberdeen, Glasgow to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Aberdeeen etc. An extensive Suburban rail network, and some basket case lines such as Inverness Wick which are well patronised but loss making. Services are stipulated by the Scottish government, and First are paid an amount to run them, with heavy penalties for failure. The Scottish parliament, infuriated by the numerous logo changes, paint jobs and marketing activity initiated by each franchise winner also developed a ScotRail logo - to be used WHOEVER wins the franchise next time.

[Mark Gleeson]

The morning arrivals have connections to Dublin and Waterford

Irish Ferries arrives 6:45 which connects with the 7:50 to Dublin
Stena arrives 6:15 which connects with the 7:00 to Waterford and 7:50 to Dublin

The evening Waterford - Rosslare service arrives with plently of time for the evening departures

There is no evening connection from Dublin, the 18:30 from Connolly has departed at 18:30-18:35 since at least the 1970's and arrives in Rosslare earlier now than ever. The lack of connection there is a matter for the ferry companies not IE

[dowlingm]

Well, there IS a train standing on Rosslare platform as of 1835 - it just doesn't go anywhere. 25 minutes away in Wexford, a train departs north at 1930. If the Waterford train shuttled north to Wexford and back it would also bring passengers arriving on the 1904 into Wexford back to Rosslare Strand - giving Rosslare passengers the option of the 1630 rather than waiting for the 1830. It should be possible to get this done now that the CTC project broke the section between Enniscorthy and Rosslare at Wexford.

Unfortunately IE operations can't figure out a way to make the crewing equations line up, gearing their requirements to the Bus Eireann Rosslare-New Ross-Waterford timetable to get crew back to Waterford.

Meanwhile, once IE has given up for the night, BE manages 1930, 2030, 2330, 0130, 0330, 0530...

[Mark Gleeson]

That option was put to IE last Sept/Oct when the proposed timetable pulled the service. There was a connection at Enniscorthy in place 2008- 2009 and uptake was very very low, some did travel to Wexford but I didn't see anyone with luggage suggesting a ferry trip.

[dowlingm]

Fair enough, but the CTC resignalling means that the train doesn't have to go as far now to make the connection. If we are saying send the train up line then we are throwing out the crew bus home anyway and thereby the excuse not to delay connection with the incoming Dublin-Waterford. I'm not familiar with the platform layout in Wexford since resignalling so maybe this is less possible than I think.

After Heuston arr from Dublin 1733
departs for Rosslare 1740 (not 1720)
arrives Rosslare Hbr 1850 (not 1835)
departs Rosslare Hbr 1855
arrives Wexford 1920 (drops off passengers for 1930, picks up from 1904)
departs Wexford 1935
arrives Rosslare 2000

Of course, a simpler exercise would be if the "sister company" allowed IE to timetable their 1900 dep for Wexford as an IE bus "codeshare" service, since its 1925 arrival is just before the 1930 departure for Dublin.

[Sealink]

The lack of connection there is a matter for the ferry companies not IE

But to miss the last train of the day because of a timetable difference of 5 minutes* doesn't seem to indicate that they want to work together.

*with the caveat that it would take more than five minutes to get from the boat to the train, but I still think even if they can't change the Dublin service due to other pressing demands, Rosslare - Waterford - beyond would be in effect a new service.

So you can get from Waterford to Rosslare for the morning service... but not on the way back.

I know that Rail and Sail isn't a money spinner, but if IE say that the train Limerick to Rosslare line is used by less than 25 people a day, can't they look at how to grow that?

And isn't "a matter for the ferry companies" the reason why the service is in decline? "If they wont change, we won't change" style thinking?

[Mark Gleeson]

You can get from Waterford to Rosslare for the evening ferries departure and similarly you can get a connection from the ferry in the morning

Evening ferries are 20:45 and 21:15, evening train from Waterford leaves 17:20 arrives 18:35 a little early but still a reasonable connection. Obviously there is sense in putting the departure time in Waterford to 17:40.

The fact is there has always been a 18:30 departure from Dublin it has always arrived Rosslare about 21:30 Its been like that for 30+ years yet the ferry companies set a timetable to depart before it arrives. If the 18:30 left earlier it would leave 100+ commuters without a way home to Wicklow, Arklow etc and that is daily repeat business which is what is extremely important to maintain.

You can't have the 18:30 leave earlier, it already leaves Dublin too early to start with. Anyone near Dublin will travel via Dun Laoghaire or Dublin Port which have more services and shorter crossings (Rosslare's fast craft is on DL - Holyhead till the Summer)

Anyone I know who has used the rail/sail option leaves in the evening, travels overnight and arrives the following morning, which is 100% possible in both directions if you start from Waterford or from the UK side to Waterford.

We need to focus on positives here the fact is the connections are there to the south Wexford line and with only a single train a day it does quite well in integration terms

[Alan French]

The official view about ferry connections has always been that numbers of foot passengers have declined so much that it’s not practical to provide trains for them. I don’t believe this. Any time I travel on a ferry, there are plenty of foot passengers. I reckon that IE has just ignored the market. They will need to be pro-active in co-operating with the ferry companies and British rail companies.

But how can we substantiate this? Has anyone any hard evidence to use in the debate? To me, the most obvious point is the large number of successful introductions of trains on other lines, where previously they had argued that there was no demand for them.

Turning to timetable improvements in general on this line, I would certainly be in favour of a train every two hours between Galway and Waterford, without changes. I’m not quite sure whether all of them could continue to Rosslare. Planning a timetable for boat trains has its own complications. I don’t mean it can’t be done – but it might not fit easily into a regular two-hourly pattern. But perhaps if a two-hourly service would mean that if ships are late, or their timetables change, there will always be some connection, even if not immediately. The Stena ferries, however, should have proper connections, since they are rail connected at the Fishguard end.

Another idea for improving local traffic would be to pick one or two stations in South Wexford – perhaps Campile and Wellington Bridge – and make them park-and-ride stations for those who want to go to Waterford, but not for the whole day. All new daytime trains would stop here.

Sometimes I like to work out timetables to see what can be done. I have looked at this line and it’s difficult! Some of you are good at this – are you interested in my ideas? Or are timetable compilers two a penny?
A starting point would be to use the existing Limerick- Limerick Junction service, which is approx. hourly, and extend trains both ways. North of Limerick, this means crossing at Ennis and Athenry, but south of the Junction we run into difficulties. Trains from Waterford and from Limerick would have to arrive at the Junction about 27 minutes past the hour, but not leave till about 50. Not ideal, but this is needed to make connections both ways. A two-hourly pattern becomes virtually impossible, unless we allow every second train to arrive about 35 and miss the connection to Dublin.
So to answer the question “what can IE do now to improve things?” I have improvised a timetable based on extending the existing Galway-Limerick trains. Departures from Waterford would be about 06.45, 08.45 (07.00 from Rosslare), 11.45 and 15.50. Trains from Galway would leave the Junction for Waterford about 09.50, 12.50, and 15.46 (to Rosslare), and then the existing 18.45 would come through from Ennis at 17.15. All this can be done using the same number of trains as at present. Some crossings are at Tipperary, which isn’t ideal. But it means the boat runs all the way to or from Galway. Of course, there would still be delays at Limerick as at present, but at least people can stay on the train.
Adding one more train, based in Limerick, would allow a commuter service to Waterford from the Suir Valley, and whatever number of daytime trains is considered appropriate on the Waterford-Rosslare section. Extending the 06.45 from Galway to run to Rosslare would connect with the Sea Lynx service in the summer.

If a Waterford crew is still to operate the 07.00 from Rosslare, then the positioning runs would still be useful as boat trains, though the 05.45 from Waterford isn’t ideal. The 19.15 Rosslare-Waterford would be the restoration of an old service.

So this is all about IE putting their eggs in several baskets, not just the dodgy one of local commuters. Another possible egg-basket is the connection from Waterford to the east coast. I’m more doubtful about this one, because even with good connections the route is much longer than by road. It would be a matter of running trains to meet the other two requirements, and adjusting them when possible to connect with trains on the Rosslare-Dublin line. Any views on this?

Properly, of course, the aim should be to have at two-hourly clock-face service generally throughout the country. Has anyone tried to work out a pattern that would maximise useful connections? (There would be more than one right answer.) Such a service would need crossing loops every 55-60 minutes’ journey. From this, we could make a list of minimum additional works such as extra crossing loops.

If it’s any encouragement, I think we are better prepared this time round than the protesters of the 1970s were. When the Western Corridor closed originally in 1976, or the Suir Valley line nearly closed in 1977, the objectors hardly mentioned their strongest argument – the bad timetable. They used more vague arguments such as a station giving status to a village, or that they should have the newest trains (then the Mark IIs). This time, everyone has pointed out the poor timetable, and the taxi story was mentioned in a letter to the Irish Times recently.

[Colm Moore]

A starting point would be to use the existing Limerick- Limerick Junction service, which is approx. hourly, and extend trains both ways. North of Limerick, this means crossing at Ennis and Athenry, but south of the Junction we run into difficulties. Trains from Waterford and from Limerick would have to arrive at the Junction about 27 minutes past the hour, but not leave till about 50. Not ideal, but this is needed to make connections both ways. A two-hourly pattern becomes virtually impossible, unless we allow every second train to arrive about 35 and miss the connection to Dublin.The trick is to build a proper Cork-bound platform* in Limerick Junction with the associated bridge and lifts. Potentially the Cork-bound and Dublin-bound trains pull in at XX:00, five-ten minutes after the arrivals from Limerick and Waterford. Everyone moves to the appropriate train and then they all depart

For those hours when there is no Waterford-bound train, start the Limerick-bound train in Tipperary town.

Personally, I see the minimum of scheduling the Galway-Limerick trains to continue relatively promptly to Limerick Junction as important. It means one connection / layover in a Galway-Cork/Waterford journey instead of two. Doing Cork-Galway typically means sitting around for about 40 minutes waiting for connections and then add for padding.


* Perhaps back to back with a Waterford-bound platform that mirrors the Limerick platform.

[Thomas Ralph]

There was a Cork-bound platform (marked "Waterford bay" on this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Limerick_junction_incomplete_track_diagram.pn g)), but it's been covered with rubble.

[Colm Moore]

There was a Cork-bound platform (marked "Waterford bay" on this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Limerick_junction_incomplete_track_diagram.pn g)), but it's been covered with rubble.

Its quite useless due to its position. I think they've also shortened the "Cork" platform.

[Thomas Ralph]

Yeah, it's shorter than platform 1. Used to be called platform 3 before they changed it so that the rear of the former platform 2 became platform 3.

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0414/1224268305849.htmlHowlin says rail line closure part of 'vendetta'
CIARAN MURPHY

WEXFORD TD Brendan Howlin (Labour) has claimed the Government has a vendetta against the southeast region.

Mr Howlin made the remarks following the announcement of the closure of the Waterford-Rosslare rail line by Iarnród Éireann, as recommended in the McCarthy report. A closing date is expected to be announced by the company shortly.

Mr Howlin, who is Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the Dáil, said in a statement that an “admission” by Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey in the Sunday Tribune newspaper, that he was to “sacrifice the Waterford to Rosslare link in order to open rail lines elsewhere is the country, is nothing short of scandalous”.

“The notion that rail links in Co Wexford and the southeast, that have existed for decades, are to be plundered to provide services in other parts of the country is absolutely outrageous.

“There is absolutely no doubt that the services on the western rail corridor are badly needed, but that does not mean that communities in other parts of the country should be deprived as a result,” Mr Howlin said.

“The people of Co Wexford and of the southeast in general are now convinced that this Fianna Fáil/Green Government has a vendetta against us,” he added.

[iknowwhereiamgoing]

It is very strange that this line which has survived during the time when railways were unpopular during the mad growth of car ownership. Now when countries around the World are appreciating the value of rail transport and its green credentials that this line should be closing now. The one train each way is a completly inadequate service and hardly going to encourage people to leave their cars at home. A service must be at times when people need it!! Why is it not possible to run a more regular service as a trail to see if there is a public demand as has happened on the Western Corridor Rail line. If the route closed and heaven forbid the track was lifted it would take millions of Euros to reinstate the route. Look how much it has cost to relay the mothballed Ennis to Athenry Railway. (Money well spent however!!) Lets hope for the reopening to Tuam and Claremorris as soon as possible and dare I hope Sligo. How about a Rosslare - Limerick Sothern Rail Corridor. If all else fails how about it (Rosslare to Waterford) becoming a heritage like The North Yorkshire Moors Railway and West Somerset Railway etc, in England. Why is there no major heritage line in Ireland? Look at the number of tourists attracted by these railways especially the historic nature of the Rosslare - Waterford railway. Come on Iarnrod Eireann wake up and smell the coffee!!

[JamesK]

Like other contributors to this thread, my view is that in the medium term, the Waterford to Rosslare route should be part of a Galway to Rosslare (or Wexford) service that has convenient connections at each point where a radial route from Dublin is crossed. Unfortunately, it is obvious that this is not going to happen in the short term.

From the point of view of Irish Rail, the main savings that will arise from withdrawing the current service will be under the following headings:
(a) Withdrawal of staff from level crossings
(b) Withdrawal of staff from Wellingtonbridge Station
(c) Taxi fares for crew transfers
(d) Maintenance of track and buildings
Bearing in mind that the line is to remain in situ, there will still be some expenses under (d). In addition, there will be an expense in providing whatever alternative bus service is put in place.

From the point of view of the customer, the main advantage of this route is that it offers very significant time savings: in the evening peak for example, the train from Waterford reaches Campile in 23 minutes as against 65 minutes for the corresponding Bus Eireann service. Travel times by train are also significantly lower than the best that can be achieved by car.

Bearing in mind the time advantage achieved by the train by virtue of using the Barrow bridge and the expenses currently being incurred by Irish Rail in providing this service, I am surprised that no suggestion has emerged to retain train service between Waterford and (say) Campile with a dedicated bus service with through ticketing operating onwards from there including to places of significant size that are not currently served by the railway. Implementing such a proposal would mean ‘mothballing’ the greater part of the route which would achieve a significant proportion of the savings in (a) – (d) above; yet, the significant time savings that customers are currently enjoying would be retained.

It goes without saying that a revised service of the type suggested above should run more frequently than at present and offer convenient connections to/from Dublin at Waterford. It should use railcar sets/crews that are laying over at Waterford between runs to/from Limerick Junction. If such a service was a success, it would in time provide the argument for extending train service back towards Rosslare.

In a nutshell, my view is that while Irish Rail currently finds itself in a situation where money must be saved, it should attempt to do this in such a way that its customers can continue to avail of the major time savings and associated fuel savings and environmental benefits that this route confers. Of course, I agree with the other contributors to this thread who feel that the present situation would probably not have arisen if Irish Rail had made a serious attempt to develop this route by utilising the resource that it represents in a more enlightened way.

[dowlingm]

Taxi fares will not be saved - they are using Bus Eireann to ferry crew back to Rosslare. This is why the 1720 ex Waterford can't be deferred as the crew can't secure the train and get to the bus in time, and IE don't seem to be able to persuade "the sister company" (aka the competition) to defer the bus.

I had the same thought re: Campile, given that this is where the diversion is greatest but given the nature of the signalling a cutback to Wellingtonbridge would probably be easier to do and a replacement bus would be able to pick up the R733 (although it means more LCs retained and Taylorstown Viaduct). It would also mean deadheading the train to and from Waterford station in the mornings and evenings as Wellingtonbridge and Campile are hardly likely to be considered places to overnight crew or equipment. That seems like saving only to spend again.

A bus goes through Campile from Duncannon in the mornings 24 minutes before the train arrives and arrives 20 minutes later. I'd love to know what the usage of that is right now.

In fairness, my understanding is that layover crews were used for Limerick Junction section services in the past, but there wasn't uptake - there isn't anything in Limerick Junction. Through services to Limerick is the key that don't involve sitting in Limerick Junction either on the platform or even the same train for half an hour to coordinate with Cork-Dublin.

[ccos]

Surely pressure must be brought to bear on the Green Party. This is their first time in power and they are allowing a railway to close.

The message that must be put is out is a simple one, the Green party are closing railways.

The people who vote for the Greens are the most likely people to be annoyed at railway closures and that should be the target audience in any campaign to save the line, make this not only a question of bums on seats but one of greens on seats. After all, whats the point in voting for a green if they are going to axe passenger rail services.

http://greenparty.ie/en/people

[Thomas J Stamp]

Surely pressure must be brought to bear on the Green Party. This is their first time in power and they are allowing a railway to close.

The message that must be put is out is a simple one, the Green party are closing railways.

The people who vote for the Greens are the most likely people to be annoyed at railway closures and that should be the target audience in any campaign to save the line, make this not only a question of bums on seats but one of greens on seats. After all, whats the point in voting for a green if they are going to axe passenger rail services.

http://greenparty.ie/en/people

they also allowed over one hundred buses to be withdrawn from Dublin - at the same time there are more than one hundred buses worth of cars cloggin up the roads at rush hour. Using imagination + having to do some work is a lot harder then cutting services. Like I said at a recent meeting should this go on the easiest way to achieve amazing savings is to shut down the entire service.

[ccos]

Got this letter from Mary White,

I love how she takes credit for the reopening of the WRC as if they had something to do with it. I think the line "It is important that in this grave financial situation that all our rail services be looked at." is the telling one here, they have no intention of stopping the closure.

Dear Ciaran,

Many thanks for your email and apologies for the delay in replying.

My understanding of the current situation regarding the closing of the Wexford Waterford rail line is that no decision has yet been made and no decision with regard to the future of the line will be made without consideration of all factors. It is important that in this grave financial situation that all our rail services be looked at.

The Green Party remains committed to investing in public transport. We have safeguarded many public transport projects over the last three years as well as increasing the proportion of transport spending going into public transport as against private transport. Delivery of projects, such as, the western rail corridor, and safeguarding of projects, such as, metro north in Dublin and the rural transport scheme throughout the country are evidence of this. We have not forgotten the importance to rural communities of providing public transport, be it rail, bus or enhanced opportunities for those who wish to cycle or walk.

Thank you again for your email.
Regards
Mary White T.D.


and my response
Dear Mary

My understanding is the line is to be closed.

The reopening of the WRC was planned and already underway before the Green party entered the current government. The closure of the Waterford, Rosslare line however is being planned and will get underway while your party is in government.

It is nice to talk of commitment but quite another to stay committed.

For shame

Ciarán

[PLUMB LOCO]

ccos - Like you I keep on hammering away at the Greens hoping that they will wake up before they follow the Dodo into extinction. My last letter to Ciaran Cuffe about the South Wexford line below:

To: ciaran.cuffe@oireachtas.ie
Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 11:48

Dear Ciaran,

Many thanks for your reply but I'm not impressed by the content. CIE will have this line closed long before anything is done. I am a long time Green supporter, although not a member, and have always voted Green since the option presented itself but I assure you if you let this closure go ahead I will activley campaign against the party on every forum possible.

Best wishes,

[ccos]

plumb Loco,
You are right, the Greens are the key.
Since NAMA they have no credibility if the responsibility for a railway closure can be laid on their mat they will have lost their raison d´étre.