View Full Version : Autumn leaves and wheelslip
Its that time of the year again autumn . And the leaves and wheelslip problem is cropping up again.
On the 19:30 pearse maynooth train tonight and it is a bit of a problem.
At ashtown it was a bit of a problem two or three minutes and we were off again. At castleknock it was a bigger problem.
It literally took us four minutes to depart from the platform a further two minutes going at a snails pace and we were moving again.
Problem departing from coolmine as well but not as bad as castleknock.
Needs to be sorted or it could be causing problems. Wonder are the sligo trains the same problem?
Edit: same problem at clonsilla you could see the train struggling. In fact two or three minutes after the clonsilla platform cleared you could see the train in the distance.
Thomas Ralph
25-10-2009, 20:39
There was an announcement on the DART I was on today apologizing for the delay.
Come to think of it, the inbound train i was on this afternoon was fifteen minutes late. No announcements though at the station or on the train.
Mark Gleeson
25-10-2009, 21:15
Enough of the excuses, its not an unknown problem, not some act of god.
Irish Rail simply have failed to equip themselves with the equipment to deal with this problem. Castleknock is a notorious trouble spot yet Irish Rail have yet to buy a high pressure water cannon to clean the rails. Even sending someone out with a scrubbing brush would work.
The DMU fleet suffer badly as the powered wheels share a common drive shaft if one of the 4 wheels loses grip the other 3 get 25% more power and slip as well.
Enough of the excuses, its not an unknown problem, not some act of god.
Irish Rail simply have failed to equip themselves with the equipment to deal with this problem. Castleknock is a notorious trouble spot yet Irish Rail have yet to buy a high pressure water cannon to clean the rails. Even sending someone out with a scrubbing brush would work.
The DMU fleet suffer badly as the powered wheels share a common drive shaft if one of the 4 wheels loses grip the other 3 get 25% more power and slip as well.
Actually it was like you could feel something happen with the wheels.the train stopped twice on the platform at castleknock and the train was stopped and started twice.
I wonder how much of a problem it could be in the coming weeks. What delays could be outbound and knockons inbound.
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2009, 10:06
Yesterday was horrible
Its much worse in the south of the country I'm told with trains sliding past platforms. Irish Rail of course seem to think the leaves fall only on Monday, Wednesday and Friday so do nothing on the other days to combat the problem
Yesterday was horrible
Its much worse in the south of the country I'm told with trains sliding past platforms. Irish Rail of course seem to think the leaves fall only on Monday, Wednesday and Friday so do nothing on the other days to combat the problem
were they the reasons for the delays to services last night? [nothing mentioned on ie website]
A few of the evening services to Maynooth last night were delayed leaving pearse and connolly by upto ten minutes.
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2009, 11:08
Driver of my train reported wheelslip as the excuse for being 27 minutes late.
Driver of my train reported wheelslip as the excuse for being 27 minutes late.
27 minutes late is just unjustifiable! is it laziness or what? I am a regular commuter on Midleton - Cork line, max I have been delayed has been 5 minutes, mostly 5 mins late leaving Cork. 27 minutes is unreal though. Just goes to show when you are not answerable to anyone you can do what you want!
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2009, 11:32
Well Midelton has had a train slide past the platform and end up well past the old signal cabin, that would have resulted in some serious delays
I can't figure out how a train could lose 27 minutes in a 40 minute journey, but this is Irish Rail, they truely make the impossible possible
I can't figure out how a train could lose 27 minutes in a 40 minute journey, but this is Irish Rail, they truely make the impossible possible
Yep that does sound strange but given the experience of being on that train sunday night, it wouldn't suprise me! passengers got so agitated the train was that slow! Can I ask mark what route that delay occured? and were there trains ahead of it?
Mark Gleeson
28-10-2009, 11:44
Soutbound Howth - Bray with a massive 32 minutes clear ahead of it. Between Pearse and DL not once did it slide under braking infact I didn't hear the anti lock mechanism activate at all and at one point the driver gave it the full 12%g braking rate without any problems. The train only lost 3 minutes while I was onboard mainly due to the fact the train was fully loaded resulting in longer station stops.
The train ahead of it was within a minute of correct time
The weather condititions over the weekend tonight included might not help things.
On this train tonight, some experience! Very slow, quiet and bumpy! The driver appologised for the problems citing extreme wheelslip conditions. We had this problem from ashtown to coolmine then it struggled after Clonsilla when I got off
Mark Gleeson
26-10-2010, 23:16
Tonight was worst case, bit of wind and rain caused chaos across the network. Its only when the leaves are wet do you get the worst of the wheelslip and by the evening there is none of the gunge applied to the rail left to help the train grip the rails
weehamster
27-10-2010, 11:28
Just had a though. Can IÉ not use one of the old locos and have some kind of brush/sweeping system attached to the front and in the early morning, and throughout the day, go up down down the lines? :o
ColmmacO
27-10-2010, 13:17
Tonight was worst case, bit of wind and rain caused chaos across the network. Its only when the leaves are wet do you get the worst of the wheelslip and by the evening there is none of the gunge applied to the rail left to help the train grip the rails
Mark I have noticed some sort of whiteish material in and around the rails the last few weeks. I thought I was just imagining it, but is that the gunge that you were referring to?
Colm Moore
27-10-2010, 14:42
Just had a though. Can IÉ not use one of the old locos and have some kind of brush/sweeping system attached to the front and in the early morning, and throughout the day, go up down down the lines? :o
Quite a few of the 22000 fleet has some equipment to help deal with leaves.
In the UK they are experimenting with industrial lasers to burn off the leaves.
http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=947
Current delays to services due to low rail adhesion by Corporate Communications
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Low rail adhesion, poor rail conditions, wheel slip, poor weather conditions, or even the dreaded “leaves on the line”. There are different ways of describing it, but the seasonal problem causing delays to services in recent weeks is a familiar foe at this time of year.
It’s something this and every other railway has to face, and as the railway’s least favourite ‘season’ is underway, we want to explain to customers how exactly ‘a few leaves’ can cause tonnes of train to be delayed.
When leaves fall on to the line, particularly in wet or damp conditions, the rolling action of passing wheels compresses them, causing a greasy ‘mulch’ to cover the rail. This mulch is to rails what ice is to roads. It reduces the adhesion, or ‘co-efficient of friction’ to use the technical term, between wheel and rail.
If you’re travelling on a train that is covered in this greasy substance, you’ll feel the effect. Acceleration must be reduced to prevent the wheels "slipping", and braking distances extended. This causes delays. The leaf mulch can also affect the operation of track circuits.
Iarnród Éireann has machinery to address this problem, which spreads “Sandite” across the busiest and worst affected lines.
On a nightly basis at the moment, we drive the Sandite machinery across DART and Commuter lines around Dublin, as well as daytime operation between Thurles and Farranfore, and other problem areas as required.
This work can only reduce the impact of leaf mulch rather than eliminate it. The mulch is Teflon-like, and even hand-scrubbing could not remove it.
As you’ll have noticed, this year these conditions are having a particularly bad and ongoing effect on services. Regular minor delays at best are being experienced. The mild, damp and relatively calm conditions have not helped. However, we do expect delays to ease as the leaf fall concludes.
We apologise for the delays caused, and thank you for your patience, and we will continue to work to minimise the effect.
James Howard
17-11-2010, 19:45
The 1805 Connolly to Longford has been almost half an hour late yesterday and today. Got quite badly stuck leaving mullingar which has always been a bad spot. You would think there should be some way of sorting out places where you have an incline after leaving a station or signal.
James Howard
17-11-2010, 19:48
Also I am getting a but sick of looking at the same poster for the last six years. Apparantly they have been working to improve track adhesion for all that time. Perhaps it is time they tried a different approach.
The 1805 Connolly to Longford has been almost half an hour late yesterday and today. Got quite badly stuck leaving mullingar which has always been a bad spot. You would think there should be some way of sorting out places where you have an incline after leaving a station or signal.
yep have this problem quiet often when leaving Coolmine
Colm said earlier in the thread
Quite a few of the 22000 fleet has some equipment to help deal with leaves.
Ive noticed the odd 22k on the 18:05, have you been on one on the 18:05 and is there less trouble leaving Mullingar on the 22k
A fairly serious incident on the UK railways as a result of wheelslip.
From daily mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330887/Train-slides-speed-TWO-MILES-leaves-line.html
A major investigation has been launched after a commuter train slid at speed for more than two miles because of leaves on the line.
The train from Charing Cross sped through one station at 65mph and then over a level crossing before finally coming to a stop.
The terrified driver had immediately contacted signal control to raise the alarm. He told investigators how he put on the brakes when approaching Stonegate station in East Sussex but the train failed to slow.
It had been travelling to Hastings on November 8 when the problem occurred.
The level crossing was fortunately closed to cars and pedestrians at the time and there were no red signals on the route.
Rail bosses are stunned by the incident and thankful no one was hurt.
'The thought of what possibly could have happened at the level crossing is just too horrible to imagine,' one senior source told the Evening Standard.
The Rail Accident Investigation Branch said: 'At around 8.10am, the train encountered poor adhesion conditions as its driver applied the brakes to make a scheduled stop at Stonegate station while travelling at about 65mph.
'The train was unable to stop and came to a stand some 2.45 miles beyond the station.' The RAIB said: 'The investigation will identify the reasons for the train's inability to stop normally. It will also examine the arrangements for the servicing and maintenance of the rail head [surface] sanding equipment on the trains used on the Charing Cross-Hastings line.'
Enlarge
Train operator Southeastern and Network Rail, which is responsible for the tracks, have joined forces and set up their own investigation.
A Network Rail spokesman said: 'The train had green signals and a clear route ahead.'
Every winter, Network Rail spends tens of millions of pounds keeping the tracks clear of leaves.
Rain and wind produce the worst conditions.
The wind blows the leaves on to the tracks where they stick on the wet lines. The first train along then crushes them into a substance similar to black ice on the roads.
Investigators will also look at whether a fault with the train was to blame.
The longest previous train slide caused by leaves on the line happened at Slough station 15 years ago.
A train approaching a dead-end platform at 56mph slid for 1,300 yards - about three-quarters of a mile - on the slippery track.
The front coach smashed into the buffers, mounted the platform, careered across the concourse and demolished the station buffet.
Miraculously only two people, including the train driver Paul Farrell, 29, were injured
Mark Gleeson
18-11-2010, 23:12
Thats pretty crazy, definitely something amiss technically
Has anyone experienced any wheelslip related problems yet?
There's a lot of fallen leaves around my area, and with the strong winds and heavy rain we've been having the last couple of days I thought it might cause problems.
Had that wheelslip experience on this train this evening
the train struggled after leaving stations between ashtown and clonsilla
Train journey certainly fealt more turbulent this evening and with the forecast for the coming days could cause problems
heading inbound tonight it was really bad slow and quiet bumpy in spots, the rain not helping things
Mark Gleeson
26-09-2011, 08:36
Irish Rail is having trouble with the local authority in Castleknock about the trees, Irish Rail want to fell them, the council are stalling
Plenty of trouble on the 22:12 Pearse Maynooth last night. We were following another train to Glasnevin so crawled along there, then we had significant trouble leaving Ashtown. There were massive problems between Castleknock and Coolmine, we never once managed to get going properly , any time we built up some revs the wheels slipped and we lost it. To top it all off, there was an emergency brake application between Coolmine and Porterstown, due to what sounded like a problem with the vigilance device(some frantic pedal stomping was heard). The train was about 10 minutes late into Clonsilla and seemed to have trouble leaving there too.
Interestingly enough, the particular train involved, 29010, for some reason has had the integral retarder (engine-assisted brake) reactivated after it was disabled a few years back on the 29s. It's been this way for a couple of weeks.
Jack O'Neill
05-10-2011, 11:59
Rail bosses tackle 'leaves on the line' by running trains early to allow for slower journeys
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044963/Train-companies-run-services-earlier-bid-beat-blight-leaves-line.html#ixzz1ZuLgUoPt
Mark Gleeson
05-10-2011, 12:16
The retarder was disabled as it only worked on one pair of axles so the brake disks did not get worn equally.
I'm guessing someone has done the math and realized that brake disks cost money
NIR has the retarder enabled on all C3K stock which is basically the same under the floor as the 29k
Colm Moore
05-10-2011, 19:38
Rail bosses tackle 'leaves on the line' by running trains early to allow for slower journeys
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044963/Train-companies-run-services-earlier-bid-beat-blight-leaves-line.html#ixzz1ZuLgUoPt
In fairness, their headline of "Rail bosses tackle 'leaves on the line' by running trains early to allow for slower journeys" is misleading. It conveys the impression that trains are leaving before the scheduled time, when in reality they have changed the schedule.
Irish Rail is having trouble with the local authority in Castleknock about the trees, Irish Rail want to fell them, the council are stalling
Question: Councillor M. Murray “To ask the Manager to make a report on the number of trees to be removed in the vicinity of Castleknock Railway Station in Laurel Lodge, also can he state if pruning would suffice in some cases and can the Manager provide a map indicating which trees and what respective action will be taken at each location?”
Reply: A total of approximately 25 trees were removed from the group on the open space at Laurel Lodge adjacent to the Castleknock Train Station.
In early October a request was received from Iarnród Éireann to remove all of the trees in the group due to worries over leaves falling onto the track from trees overhanging the station platform. This request was made under the Railway Act. The Council considered the removal of all of the trees excessive, and proposed to remove only those trees and limbs closest to the station, this was subsequently agreed with Iarnród Éireann on site, and the trees in question were removed by a contractor appointed by the Council. In all cases the removal of trees was only considered as an absolute last resort.
The work is now completed, and it is considered that minimal impact has been caused to the visual amenity of the open space as a result.
And
“To ask the Manager to report on the number of trees removed at Clonsilla Railway Station, also can he state if so many needed to be cut down and who carried out the felling?”
Reply: Iarnród Éireann are currently undertaking tree pruning/removal works in the vicinity of Clonsilla Train Station. Any works carried out here were not on land under the control of the Council, and were carried out by contractors working on behalf of Iarnród Éireann.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/minutes/meeting_items.aspx?id=1201
whatchutalkinboutWillis
15-11-2012, 22:21
A fairly serious incident on the UK railways as a result of wheelslip.
From daily mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330887/Train-slides-speed-TWO-MILES-leaves-line.html
Thats pretty crazy, definitely something amiss technically
if there was something amiss with the brakes it would have been takin out of service and hauled to a depot, just goes to prove its not something made up by rail companies to cover over delays to services.. leaves fall+ rain= slip and slide,
Has anyone experienced any wheelslip related problems yet?
There's a lot of fallen leaves around my area, and with the strong winds and heavy rain we've been having the last couple of days I thought it might cause problems.
heavy rain actaully cleans the rail head.. worse time for wheelslip, is loads of leaves falling in a calm days just geting getting mashed into the rail head or into a damp rail head, then followed by ( dry spell or without a dry spell) light hazy rain.. then you will hear the wheel slip protection systems kick in.. drivers are told to break earlyer to help avoid slip slide and take power in a lower notch to avoid just spining the wheels but both these can add time on to the journey. problem areas laytown skerries rush and lusk donabate portmarknock, raheny to killiester... lansdowne to sydney, glenageary and shankill.. just cut down the trees!!!!:eek:
Mark Gleeson
16-11-2012, 11:54
For the UK case the investigation report found the train to be unsafe due to a failure to fill the sand boxes despite the train reporting that it had a low sand condition the night before
Inniskeen
16-11-2012, 11:59
Can we take it that the sand boxes are kept topped up on Irish Rail rolling stock ?
whatchutalkinboutWillis
16-11-2012, 18:28
the sand machine boxes not full is a issue, but hav u ever seen how much sand actaully comes out of them things. not a lot per wheel. .more of a aid to the wsp, wsp that does the real work like abs on ur car, id say the driver broke to late, but more of a case of to hard and the train just took off 65 mph and would say it easly gained speed as it lost traction with the slippy rail head so i can see how it traveled 2.25 miles past the station , LRA is like ice on the road,
Look at the rail heads at the moment there black. unless a heavy rain shower comes or after the sandite machine with the high powered water jet cleans it(if its not broke) then it get the shine back on it,when its black like tha from the leaves been mashed into a paste on them, little bit of light ran and its lethal.
Mark Gleeson
16-11-2012, 21:12
The formal investigation showed it was the lack of sand that was the cause and that the driver drove exactly per the training. Not the driver, machine was at fault.
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