A Christmas Tale: My (re-)introduction to Irish Public Transport #1

[apwhite]

After living in Germany for 9 years, a country where public transport generally starts at 4.30 am and finishes at 1am, a country where one travel ticket for 2 EUR will let you change transport modes as many times as you want to get to your destination within 90 minutes, a country where you can get the 550 km from Frankfurt to Berlin in 3:30 hours whilst sipping a freshly poured glass of beer, brought to you by a waiter in the subdudely lit restaurant car of a sexy white train, I arrived back to Dublin at the beginning of this year.

Everything looked all shiny, spanking new cars on the road, metallic Luas gliding and honking by, SeaCats speeding off to Hollyhead and Dublin busses without rust! Ain't progress wonderful?

But on one of my first trips around Dublin I was brought back to the horrors of Irish Public Transport with a bang...

* A true story *
All I wanted to do was get from Blackrock to Parnell square and back again. Easy. I decided to do it by bus to save me the walk to the Dart station. First mistake. After bravely standing at the bus stop for 15 minutes a bus approached. A 45. First problem - where does it terminate? "An Lar" is a great f**king use in a medium sized 1.5 million inhabitant city.

I hopped on and waited to be surprised and see where the journey would take me. My first surprise was the fact that I handed 2 EUR to the driver and he issued me a ticket, I was about to ask where my change was when he told me the 2nd half of it was a receipt... Anyone know of other countries (not including those muppets in the UK) where exact change is required to travel??

The second surprise was the amount of bloody bus stops on the route. 10 seconds after leaving Roches Stores we were stopped again at a bus stop where there are no visible houses in the vicinity - a large wall behind it, Blackrock park in front and minimal housing left & right. This carried on ad nauseum. Does anyone know Dublin's bus stop per km ratio??? It must be the highest in the world. We carried on through Booterstown and Ballsbridge and I quickly observed a quirky phenomenon - bus leapfrog, it seems as if one bus is always overtalking the other. It stops at the next busstop and the bus behind it then has to swing out to overtake and the fun starts again. I know of no other country where this happens...

Anyway we made it as far as Bewleys hotel when the fun started. A lot of people wanted to get on and there was a throng waiting to get off. I always understood that God had invented the world with 2 types of doors - the IN door and the OUT door. But obviously Dublin Bus knows better so we all waited while the people squeezed by each other. A tourist family from Scotland got on and asked the driver for 2 adults and 2 kids, the driver told them the price and told them exact change, no notes. How the f*ck are you expected to have 5.30 (or whatever) change in coins in your pocket for a bus journey? They managed to scrape it together (even with wee Hamish donating 60 cents from his hard earned pocket money).

The ride went smoothly for about all of about 20 seconds until the RDS. Then the driver just stopped the bus and told us to get out. I thought he was throwing a hissy-fit due to excessive bus-leapfrogging but I quickly learned it was simply the end of his shift.... Heh????? Imagine your denist half extracting a mouldy molar and him then telling you that he has to clock off... There is a dentist next door that will carry on from where he left off. Also another world first for me. I presume those weirdo European bus drivers have to be slave-driven to complete the journey before they can clock off...

The rest of the journey was uneventful and we made it into An Lar. And in the 30 minute journey I was already planning an open letter to Dublin Bus. But wait, I had to get back to Blackrock, the fun was only beginning.... TBC

[ThomasS]

It mattered not if you were in Germany for 9 years or 999 years. As long as CIE control public transport in Ireland there was, and never will going to be real progress.

I was going out to see my bother in Tallaght a few years back and I got the 77B (?) bus. The bus is meant to go to West Dublin and there had been an attack on a bus driver the previous night.

I have no problem with BAC drivers being pissed off about this. But did they have to terminate all buses in the The Square and then say nothing to the passengers?

So we sat in the Square carpark in the bus all looking confused and at each other wondering what was going on. So I start to see passengers leaving the bus and I eventually followed. There were about 40 buses parked inthe square and about 15 yards away I see a group of men and I recognised one of them as the driver of my bus.

So politiely I go over and ask as we going to Raheen? Apart from interupting a surly grunting session with his fellow CIE neaderthals with a nasty momentary glace in my direction he stated nothing. So I ask again. One of the other drivers replied in a nasty and arrogant manner "no fookin buses past the Square tonight cos of anti-social behavior".

Now the irony of this statement struck me as odd considering how the passengers were marooned, not told why and then treated like ****. How were we to blame to what happened to the driver in West Tallaght the night before, whom I and 99.99 of the people on the bus would of had total sympathy for.

So as I had determined that my journey was terminated I asked for some of the fare I paid back. Was told that the money is in a sealed box. I was looked upon as if I was a headcase for requesting this and how dare I ask. By the same shower of pricks who dumped us in the Square. Doing that to the passengers, including pregnant women, young kids and older folks on a winter's night was perfectly acceptable to them.

Next morning I called Dublin Bus with all the details on the bus, route the driver refused to give me his name. Nothing ever came of it.

A few weeks later they were marching through the streets of Dublin with posters of Seamus Brennan made up like Hitler demanding that 'CIE Not Be Broken Up to SAVE PUBLIC TRANSPORT'.

You should have stayed in Germany and I should have bought a car a lot sooner. CIE are a disaster. I am simply amazed how some people out there are nostalgic, almost romantic about this appalling organisation which has served our nation so badly and will continue to do so till we get a Government with guts who can take the unions on and removed CIE from the face of the earth once and for all.

[sean]

Everything you say is true. Public transport in Dublin especially is a joke.

From someone used to German transport, this reintroduction must have been a real bummer. The Germans put us to shame.

[Maskhadov]

I was in Germany for a couple of months and travelled about while I was there. I have to totally agree, Germany is kick ass when it comes to public transport. I was very impressed with their whole attitude and the thinking they put into things. I wish we just had more germans over here to do all the planning and investment for us. Our public transport is slap stick

[ThomasS]

Every country is Western Europe has far superior public transport to Ireland. Not just Germany.

[MrX]

Believe me, Dublin's public transport's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Cork (and possibly other cities in Ireland too)

If Dublin Bus' system is a joke, Bus Eireann's Cork City/Suburban services are beyond a joke.

We've had similar curtailment of routes due to antisocial behaviour. They thought nothing of stranding elderly and other vunerable customers in their homes. Why can't they just do something about the anti-social behaviour if it is a problem e.g. install proper driver protection / CCTV that is actually switched on and get the gardai involved quickly.

We've no electronic tickets, it's all pay at the door nonsense.

They're constantly late, the busses are grossly undersized for the amount of traffic that uses them and would use them if they were remotely pleasant to use.

The "Bus Full - Extra Bus following" lies that scrolls across the display as a bus whizzes past your stop and you end up having to call a taxi in the rain is another unique Bus Eireann Cork practice.

There are a % of drivers who, thanks to management's total fear of the unions, treat passengers/paying customers like dirt and get away with it. If they worked in any other company they'd be long since fired.

I remember as a 15 year old I was entitled to reduced fares. One particularly driver simply wouldn't believe any of my ID. Accused me of using my brothers and I constantly had to pay full fare. I was in a school uniform!!!! When I took it up with the driver he simply threatened to throw me off the bus and get me banned from all BE services.

I took it up (As did my parents) with Bus Eireann and got nowhere.

(This was back in the mid 90s)

[sean]

Every country is Western Europe has far superior public transport to Ireland. Not just Germany.

Yes. But the Germans really put us to shame.

[Beekeeper]

from Southside People
No demand for Christmas DART Print E-mail
IARNROD Eireann has defended its decision not to run the DART on Christmas Day and Stephen’s Day on the grounds that not enough people would use it.“There’s never a DART on Christmas Day because the demand isn’t there,” spokesman Barry Kenny told Southside People.
The company was responding to a complaint by local Progressive Democrats activist Victor Boyhan who described the lack of DARTs on Christmas Day as “a disgrace”.
“If an elderly person or someone without a car wishes to visit family or friends on Christmas Day they should have that opportunity on public transport,” he said.
Mr Boyhan added that he felt CIE’s policy was directly in conflict with Government policy of encouraging people not to drink and drive.

“At a festive time like Christmas when we are encouraging people not to drink and drive, the provision of a comprehensive public transport network including the DART is both responsible and essential,” he said.
However Iarnrod Eireann say there’s never been a call for a Christmas DART service and they’re convinced there wouldn’t be a demand for one.
They’ve also stood by their policy of stopping DART services at 9pm on Christmas Eve on the grounds that people tend to stay in their localities after that time.
However, Mr Kenny said the company would “keep under review” the possibility of introducing a service on St Stephen’s Day in future years but not Christmas Day.

[Derek Wheeler]

Don't you know?

CIE think we still hibernate on christmas day around a log fire with micky playin a fiddle. We spend the next day trying to get the fiddle out of micky's....eh......fiddle case. Of course on Christmas eve, we must be home by 9pm or we all turn into pumpkins.

But remember to take this into account, the Luas doesn't operate on xmas day either. So obviously the forward thinking non CIE company that is Connex:D haven't looked at this yet. However our local PD activist didn't mention the luas, did he?

Our xmas tradition is cultural, not operational. Change the culture and the operation will change for you.

I really hope it doesn't take 50 years for us to "have a go" at Connex.

[Mark Gleeson]

There used to be a DART service on St Stephen's Day until the early 1990's but it was cancelled since no one used it. This is however a bus service

Most of the pubs in town throw out at 8-9pm on Christmas eve and of course Christmas day is the safest day to travel by road. Our transport system is not designed to visit your relatives its all focused on the city centre which is effectively a ghost town on the 25th. I personally cant see running trains on the 25th to be a sound idea, the bus would be a more flexible solution, there was a time they ran for part of the 25th

It would have been impossible to operate a rail service this year anyway as Howth Junction was closed to allow for the removal of a bridge

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann do run late night services year round which neither Connex or IE do

Now if IE played smart you could run a service on the 26th at tiny cost, its simple, you send out 2 coach trains, all stations unstaffed bar Howth, Connolly Pearse Dun Loaghaire and Bray, stick a conductor on the train for tickets and security

[Morlan]

the city centre which is effectively a ghost town on the 25th.

Just to back you up on that comment: A Vacant city - Dublin on Christmas Morning (http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4543)

[ThomasS]

Very good pictures there, but it does not really prove there is no demand for public transport on Christmas day, all day. Tens of thousands of Dubliners are on the move all during the day and all over the city visiting relatives after the kids have opened the christmas presents. The roads are fairly busy at certian times and it public transport was there people would use it. Right now these Christmas day housecallers all drive.

So do National Toll Rolls close the Westlink down because of "no demand"?

One moment in time in the city centre is not indicative of the entire Christmas day all over the city of Dublin and it's suburbs. There is vast movements of people in the suburbs.

There are also lots of people living in the city of Dublin now who are not Christians. 80,000 Chinese for start.

CIE's 1970's timewarp mentality again?

[Thomas J Stamp]

there used to be bus services in dublin untill 1980 on christmas day. My uncle was a conductor in Ringsend and he told me they ran untill 6pm but I dont remeber what sort of service it was, a sunday or skeleton. He also said the pay was huge, about 4 days worth for doing it. The demand was nil, and that was why they stopped it. I think the BAC spokesman said before christmas that they have never had a single request for it and never recived a complaint about it either from passangers.

[philip]

there used to be bus services in dublin untill 1980 on christmas day. My uncle was a conductor in Ringsend and he told me they ran untill 6pm but I dont remeber what sort of service it was, a sunday or skeleton. He also said the pay was huge, about 4 days worth for doing it. The demand was nil, and that was why they stopped it. I think the BAC spokesman said before christmas that they have never had a single request for it and never recived a complaint about it either from passangers.
That's 25 years ago! Ireland has many new citizens since then, many of whom aren't even christian, let alone catholic. I know my employer was open for business on xmas day, as was Intel and HP, probably plenty more multinationals (especially the ones with a financial year ending with the calendar year!) and everyone who was working had to get taxis in at my employer's expense. If the drink laws are ever changed to allow pubs to open on xmas day (and they should be because it's totally discriminatory to close pubs when many of us have no belief in xmas) then there will be a huge increase in demand. I wonder will the CIE group respond then?

A lack of public transport actually hits some of the lowest paid irish and immigrant workers hardest. People on good salaries rarely have to work xmas day, it's cleaners, porters, hotel staff etc. who need to get to work on xmas day but they can't. Many of the most vulnerable migrant workers will have to pay for taxis (or walk miles) themselves.

[ThomasS]

That's 25 years ago! Ireland has many new citizens since then, many of whom aren't even christian, let alone catholic.

and the population of Dublin is about 800,000 more than back then and most of these people live in West Dublin and are not going to go to O'Connell Street on Christmas Day anyway. It there were actually orbital bus routes and a DART service on Christmas day, people would use it. Immigrants alone would probably justify it.

I don't think thomasjstamp was claiming that 1980's Christmas Day CIE data is how we should measure demand for Christmas Day services in 2006, but rather this is how CIE make decisions when planning public transport services in 2006 and beyond (coupled with how it suits the lifestyles of the CIE unions).

The culture of CIE has yet to make it to 1979, yet alone 1980. If we could get them to 1980 that would move them about 6 years culturally forward from where they currently are now.

Mark my words. When the Stephen's Green Metro/Luas/DART station opens in 2015, that unles the likes of P11 and others can kick up a storm, the Metro and Luas parts will be buzzing with passengers over the Christmas holidays and the CIE Interconnector Station will be closed because of "no demand".

You, I and everybody else knows this is going to happen and for me this must question the wisdom of giving Irish Rail the money to build an underground rail tunnel, when they do not have the intelligence, nor desire to use it to provide an underground rail SERVICE.

I think any financial commitment for capital investment the Government gives to CIE/IE from this point forward should be based on how they are going to use it in terms of integration with Bus, Luas and Metro and will it operate according to 21st demands and not the CIE union's and Irish Rail management's 1974 mindset.

A tunnel between Spencer Dock and Hueston is pointless if the CIE traditional hours of operational service is the end result of this investment.

[philip]

I don't think thomasjstamp was claiming that 1980's Christmas Day CIE data is how we should measure demand for Christmas Day services in 2006
I just reread my post, it did sound like I was tackling thomasJ, which I wasn't. I know he wouldn't think such a thing. :o

[Derek Wheeler]

The luas doesn't operate on xmas day and thats controlled by Connex. JJ Kavanagh & Sons coaches, Aercoach etc don't operate on xmas day either. A taxi has to be prebooked and additional charges are made on xmas day. As I said in an earlier post, the culture of not operating public transport on xmas day, is a culture that has spawned from traditional Irish values and not the boardroom of CIE.

While Im no fan of CIE and on media record to prove it, some of the material here is bordering on the, "blame CIE for everything". Its getting boring. If we want to talk about the lack of public transport provision on xmas day, please have the decency to include all the private operators who dont provide a service either.

Points about businesses operating on xmas day and the amount of cultures that don't celebrate xmas are all valid. But Ive never seen a chinese takeaway open on xmas day. Why? I can only guess that its a mark of respect to our culture. Theres that word again...culture. I suppose CIE came up with the idea that all work and business stops on xmas day.

The committee is working on improving Sunday services on a lot of lines and getting them introduced on lines that need them. Xmas is a whole different ball game. However we won't be doing this by blaming CIE for the war and everything else. We know the mentality. But constant attacks and vitriole on the board achieves nothing. Anyone got any ideas on how to change things within IE in the present circumstances?

[ThomasS]

some of the material here is bordering on the, "blame CIE for everything". Its getting boring.

CIE is rubbish. There is nothing wrong with people on this board constantly venting about how bad they are at public transport. Maybe CIE might actually read this board one day while they are taking a break from building apartment blocks.

[Mark Gleeson]

Then don't read it. CIE is rubbish. There is nothing wrong with people on this board constantly venting about how bad there are.They where as I keep pointing out CIE ceased to exist in 1987 as a transport provider. This board is for the discussion issues primarly with respect to the Irish railway network, not what happens in shell company which exists only as a holding company.

I couldn't give a monkeys what CIE did in the past as this is now and the past is past. Joe public doesn't care about the past they care about getting home tonight and getting to work tomorrow. By all mean go after Irish Rail, given CIE doesn't exist in the public they are the only target that exists

Christmas day is a no transport day it doens't matter which company or by which means there are no public transport services on Christmas day its got squat to do with unions squat to do with public or private sector its the reality the numbers to travel don't make up sufficent demand, no boats trains or buses you won't see them in the UK either or a long list of countries

We have enough trouble getting public transport on many routes on Sunday at least that has a chance, there is demand

[philip]

If CIE doesn't exist in the public then why was it Dr. Lynch announcing the ordering of the 30 extra IC DMUs?

CIE does exist and it's culture certainly does. It's easier to refer to CIE than IE/BAC/BE, that's why I refer to CIE and will continue doing so. We are a rail lobby group, fair enough, but we above all recognise that without integration (with buses in the main) that rail isn't really worth a whole hill of beans.

Has anybody thought that if CIE operated services on xmas day that Connex would too? I think Connex look at their two lines (they don't even operate a network thanks to Mary O'Rourke) and realise that with BAC at least running that their passenger numbers would be far too small. I'm not blaming CIE for Connex's decisions but it will certainly be a big factor. I know that I personally can only use Luas if IE services are running to get me to Connolly, and I have made these journeys quite a few times.

I hear what you're saying about CIE bashing Derek, but Connex are a brand new outfit with a tiny passenger base compared to CIE, who had 50 years as a virtual national monopoly to provide integrated transport & ticketing. They failed miserably and you still have to pay two fares on two buses to make one journey across Dublin. That's why people are so angry with them-they could have done all this years ago but they have never really been interested in provided a quality experience for the public.

Our own board shows this ever day-they repeatedly fail to display the most basic information at stations, on trains etc. That is happening today, not 25 years ago. They really haven't improved at all in decades and looking at old maps of a fragmented tram system (pre-CIE) you can see flat 1p fare boundaries so we have actually gone backwards under CIE.

[Thomas J Stamp]

The real point about christmas day not having a bus service is that, as I said above BAC says that no-one has requested it or made a complaint about it to BAC, and they said that just before chirstmas 05 not 1980. You're dammed right that CIE and it's sub companies are stuck in the 1970's, look at the lack of a centre door on new buses and the absolute refusal of drivers to use the ones that do exist on older ones, an issue that goes right back to the early seventies!! This season it seems the ball has started rolling and it's up to the potential passangers to make themselves known otherwise it's too easy for the uinions and the managment to pretend there is nothing to cater for.

And as is also pointed out above we have to get normal Sunday services sorted out. How can BAC pretend there is a reduced service demand on what is now actually the busiest shopping day of the week, which was why the clampers started clamping on Sundays? It is nothing but another example, which can be found in many places within the group, that the unions run the show and passangers are an annoyance that gets in the way.

[Derek Wheeler]

CIE is rubbish. There is nothing wrong with people on this board constantly venting about how bad they are at public transport. Maybe CIE might actually read this board one day while they are taking a break from building apartment blocks.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with anyone venting about how bad CIE were/are at providing public transport. There are specific sections for doing that on the board and on the web site. We encourage it. However, do you think there's any chance that you could come up with at least one single positive and realistic idea that could begin to force change instead of the "I hate CIE" repitition. Between this board, the web site and on the ground activities, the purpose is to develop ideas and policy on how P11 can achieve something in the face of CIE ineptitude, expose them, go after them and embarass them.

Im up to my neck in coordinating politicians, wannabe politicians and public campaigners in various districts so we can achieve things through real change. We have made a great start in Kildare's press today in relation to the Kildare route. It would be nice to get some creative ideas from the board. As I see things at the moment some of the posts in various threads regarding CIE/IE and our rail service are so steeped in negativity and the past, that Im thinking P11 should just stand outside Connolly with "WE HATE CIE" stickers on our heads.

[alek smart]

"They failed miserably and you still have to pay two fares on two buses to make one journey across Dublin."
Whilst it may well be true that two Buses are necessary in order to make certain cross-city journeys it is NOT true to say you HAVE to pay two fares.
The choice of paying two fares is entirely one of the customer themselves.
The somewhat simple expedient of purchasing a Value-Pack of Travel 90 tickets €16 for TEN equates to €1.60 each for a ticket giving an unlimited number of journeys within 90 mins of initial validation.
Mar Shampla..... 09.00. Board a 46A in Foxrock for a journey to An Lar (Cash Fare €1.80) 09.30 alight in Westmoreland St and board the 0936 67A to Maynooth using the SAME ticket (Cash Fare €1.90) thus a series of journeys costing €3.70 is available for less than HALF that combined fare.
The salient point is that this range of tickets IS readily available in BAC ticket agents.
At some point the responsibility for organizing one`s commute does shift somewhat from the service provider itself onto the shoulders of the potential commuter themselves.
For example I know several well seasoned Bus users who habitually carry one Two-Easy (2 Journey) ticket for each fare denomination in their wallets thus ensuring that they ALWAYS have a ticket for whatever journey they make.
Few people know for example that one can use a lower value 2 easy ticket for a longer journey by paying the difference in cash to the driver and getting an excess ticket to cover this amount.
Far from having a non-integrated Transport System,Dublin has a level of Ticketing Integration somewhat better than might first be assumed,including quite a variety of Bus/Luas/Dart/Arrow pre-paid tickets.
The glaring omission is the provision of a single journey time-based transfer ticket available across ALL modes and that can be easily accomodated IF only the Dept of Transport will sanction a move to Flat Fare or Zonal Tarriff structure.
Far from constantly berating each and everybody working in the CIE group companies it would be far more useful to focus the Lobbying Device on the Fat Controllers office in the Dept of Transport which continues to operate according to the long standing Civil Service medium of ANY and ALL Change being Undesirable,lest the delicate Balance of things be distuirbed... ;)

[philip]

Fair point Derek, we must turn all the negative energy into something positive. On that note, when are we going to confront IE with the ever growing database of passenger information failures?

[philip]

Alek,
I knew somebody would raise the prepaid tickets issue ;) The fact is that if I get on a bus in Munich sans-billet I can buy a ticket to complete my journey to any part of the city with any mode and only pay by zones travelled through. You can't board a bus in Dublin and do anything approaching that. You have to find a newsagent that sells tickets. This is simply NOT convenient, especially outside business hours or in places that are simply miles from the nearest shop.

You can't even buy a one day ticket from the driver on BAC. They do this in Glasgow (which also has pretty rubbish integration by international standards) where you just pay the driver £2.25 and he gives you a ticket that has the date and "all day" printed on it (from exactly the same bog standard 15 year old wayfarer ticket machines). How simple is that? Why can't BAC do that? Why must I go to a newsagent to pay BAC their money for a 1 day rambler? No excuse is good enough for these failures.

[Mark Gleeson]

Fair point Derek, we must turn all the negative energy into something positive. On that note, when are we going to confront IE with the ever growing database of passenger information failures?IE have been notified in writing quoting a list

IE have failed to respond

IE have changed the software

[philip]

Ok, so the national rail company can't even be arsed responding. What about sending it to Cullen? He's their boss, right?

It's the height of ignorance not to get acknowledgement. I wrote an email to FCC informing them of knocked over warning signage in my area (which had been knocked over for weeks). They came out and fixed the signs but never bothered emailing even to confirm the receipt of the mail I'd sent them. Ignorance or what?! :mad:

[Mark Gleeson]

Its strange letter goes in things change no response

Its much simpler than that really registered mail is the ultimate killer. Who cares we go face to face its much simpler that way

IE only write back when they can construct a story to cover themselves, we are wise to this and thus everything is cast iron no way out

[philip]

I hear what you're saying Mark, but when they completely ignore us, who do we report that to? The DoT? What about these people (http://www.irishconsumer.ie/)?

[Donal Quinn]

bit late but citylink ran a single service dublin to galway and back on xmas day

friend of mine took it last year - there was a decent crowd on it too...

http://www.citylink.ie/festive-galw2dubl.htm

[Derek Wheeler]

Fair point Donal.

[alek smart]

Phillip`s requiem for the standard single ticket is quite correct.
However my point above is that there is a certain amount of personal choice which prospective customers exercise in relation to their Journeys.
Phillips desired sans-billet journey is indeed one which Dublin Bus/Luas/Dart presently cannot satisfy.
That still leaves the ready availibility in over 400 ticket agents of not just one,but a Range of multi modal tickets with even the humble Nitelink ticket now being sold at the City Centre Spar/Centra 24 hr convenience stores.
Once again it has to be stressed that the fare structure operated by Dublin Bus is STRICTLY controlled by the Dept of Transport and one reason for the lack of an On-Bus one day ticket sale is that that ticket would then be regarded (by a Civil Servant) as a multi-journey one thus blurring the lines (In a Civil Servants mind) between single journey cash fare and the multi-journey pre-paids.
It should also be noted that Dublin Bus had progressed much further with its own Smart Card/Electronic Purse research than many realize before the Department of Transport suddenly lost interest in the concept some 15 years ago.
The decision then was to await further developments in the technology rather than to allow the company to press ahead with its own system.
In the meantime we really DO require a major push to switch customers away from on-bus cash transactions but that can only come with the ACTIVE backing and involvement of the Department of Transport.....:eek:

[philip]

Interesting you should raise the Nitelink Alek, there is no such thing as a Nitelink ticket in Munich (or any german city I've ever been to). If you have a 1 day ticket (or obviously any season ticket) in your posession it's valid until 6am the following morning on all night services (the underground closes down at 1am but trams and buses run a limited service all night, every night as does the airport S-Bahn). If you don't have a season ticket then a single costs no more than during the daytime. This is what we should aspire to. I understands that the DoT have their mits all over this and I am equally critical of them. This stuff makes me quite angry as we could have introduced it all years ago.

[alek smart]

Interestingly enuf Pip,Dublin Bus was in the throes of moving towards the introduction of 24hr services on some Trunk Routes up until nice Mr Brennan and his fully charged up senior officials entered the fray.
The initial routes would probably have been the 746 Dun Laoire-Airport and the 7 Cherrrywood-An Lar.
And before some other posters start jumping around with "Wat about the Union" mallarkey...The principle of 24 hr services was already covered as part of the last Drivers Wage agreement.
The only issues being the Timetabling/Rosters/MealBreaks and suchlikes.
What many people fail to realize is NiteLink is NOT a Night BUS Service.
Nitelink is an Express Bus Service linking the City Centre and suburbs and was introduced expressly (!!) to rapidly empty the City Centre following some serious Public Order issues nearly 20 years ago.
In the intervening time very little has been done to improve upon the concept which by now is suffering greatly in the wake of Late Luas and extra Taxi`s.
I fully agree that we should have a 24 Hr Standard Bus Service rather than the present premium arrangements...:(

[markpb]

Does anyone know why DoT have such a problem with change in DB? Between here and boards.ie, it seems they have blocked the change in fare system, blocked any new routes or decent changes in timetable and refused to fund (m)any new buses.

[MrX]

On the integrated ticketing vs prepay issue.

Try boarding a bus in Bordeaux sans billet! You will be charged an extra high fare for holding the place up. The driver will look at you like you're some sort of pond scum.

I would like to see Dublin Bus move this way too.

From a passengers perspective:
1) No queing at the door in the rain.
2) Both doors could be used (if they existed)
3) Flexible ticketing - easy integrated ticketing
4) Driver's freed up to answer queries etc
5) Driver's less grumpy!
6) Busses move faster without long pauses at stops.

From the drivers perspective:
1) Less hassle
2) No need to handle cash
3) No cash on board - much safer.
4) If in a dangerous area / nightlink mode no need to interact with passengers at all.

From a road users perspective:
1) Busses move faster and don't lag at stops while they're taking fares.
2) Environmental benefits from busses idling less and moving more efficiently.

There's no need for the expensive fancy Irish Rail / Luas style ticket vending machines at EVERY stop.
Major stops could have those machines while a parking meter sized device could go in at most stops.

Tickets could be validated on board at numerous points throughout the bus.

If it works on LUAS it can work on Dublin Bus.

[philip]

Dublin Bus have something like one thousand buses but many thousands of bus stops. It would be cheaper to install a ticket machine in each bus rather than at any bus stops (except very major ones). This is how it works in Munich. The bus drivers do not handle cash at all in that city. The ticket machine is very compact and sits just behind the driver. Of course, this system is better suited to buses with at least 2 opening doors. It would be awkward to now opt for this with the monumentally stupid almost completely single door fleet BAC moved to in recent years. :mad:

[markpb]

Dublin Bus have something like one thousand buses but many thousands of bus stops. It would be cheaper to install a ticket machine in each bus rather than at any bus stops

Would a compromise not be:

1. Install ticket machines at busy/city centre stops and refuse to accept cash at those stops

2. Accept cash at all other stops but at a premium over pre-paid tickets.

Of course the best solution would be to get DoT and co. to actually help DB instead of hindering them. Absolutely agreed with the vendetta against single door operation - there are clearly still some morons working for DB.

[alek smart]

Very interesting and positive direction that this thread is moving in.
The main feature being the general recognition that the present system of On Bus Cash Transaction is totally unsuited to the City which Dublin NOW is.
The simplicity of the fare system is the key to giving Bus Customers some sort of return for their fare.
Presently the person who makes the small extra effort to take a bit of responsibility for their own commuting use is penalized by being ignored for it.
No substantial discount over cash,No great advantage in boarding time as they stand in line behind a motley collection of both real buffoons and those who merely act out that role as they sigh deeply,roll their eyes heavenward,muttering dark incantations before slowly and laboriously depositing each individual 1,2,and 5 cent piece into the farebox.....pausing occasionally only to attempt to poke their head around the drivers screen to see if they mistakenly dropped in a Mogadon....
It HAS to stop and quick-sharp with it.
The easiest method is the simplest....Flat €2 adult-€1 Child cash fare...Full Stop...No Change,No Change Ticket, No Nuttin...Drop in the Coin and Walk on By.
ALL current pre-paid tickets to be supplemented with a rationalized range of Two-Easy tickets available from machines sited at most BusStops within the Inner Canal Zone (Remember the significance of that in City Council terms).
I wud C the most popular 2-easy ticket being a €3 Off-Peak with unlimited validity tween 10.00 and 16.00.
However in spite of Dublin Bus Inspectors,Drivers and even Individual managers all recognizing the futility of the present system,I feel the impetus for change must come from the Customer,and must be directed at the responsible Agency.....The Department of Transport.
The Dept in one fell swoop could provide the necessary level of funding to support a Flat Fare or Simplified Zonal System,but presently CHOOSES not to on grounds which remain somewhat hazy.
PLUS !........ it makes a good running-mate for the Drumcondra Station Interchange issue !!!!! :) :) :)